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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Finland history

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Old 9th December 2017, 09:08 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You have fallen into the common trap of assuming language is the same as ethnicity.

They are quite separate, although linked because of geography.
No, language is a major part of ethnicity.

Besides that, as 52ka the inhabitants didn't speak Finnish they wouldn't have called the place Finland, nor would any foreigners have done so, so it's nonsense to say how Finland looked 52ka.

And besides that, 52ka there was no notion of states.
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Old 9th December 2017, 09:13 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
'Who took part in WWII'.
You didn't mention that. Even then it's a fail.

Valletta (Malta) and Nicosia (Cyprus).

Bucharest (Romania) and Sofia (Bulgaria). Both countries switched sides and declared war on Nazi Germany a week before the Red Army entered their capital. When it's allied forces it's not an occupation.

Zagreb (Croatia). German troops entered Zagreb the same day the NDH was proclaimed, and in 1945, the city was liberated by Yugoslav partisans.
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Old 9th December 2017, 09:20 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Finland was never part of the Axis, but yeah, they 'owed' Germany for the Jaakari (Jaegar) military training that saw off the Bolsheviks in 1917,
It's Jäger, or Jaeger if you can't find the umlaut on your keyboard. A very odd spelling mistake for someone who claims to know German.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Finns wanted back Karelia and they never crossed the old Mannerheim line.
We've gone over this before and (a) the Mannerheim line was not the pre-1939 border but a defensive line within pre-1939 Finland, and (b) the Finnish army did cross the old border and conducted navy operations on Lake Ladoga together with the German navy.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They had their own army and never collaborated with the Germans, apart from one battalion, together with another 'Nordic' panzer battalion made up of an assortment of Norwegians, Estonians [who feared and loathed the Russians], Swedes and a sundry motley crew of fascist mercenaries from all over Europe].

No Finn with any self-respect EVER. saluted a German officer.
I wonder how that went in Operation Arctic Fox, where a joint German-Finnish army tried to invade the Soviet Union and cut off the Murmansk railroad.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
ETA: You do know, most of the Nazi war criminals who fled to South America, did so via Sweden?
[ citation required ]

Maybe you could edit this wiki article with your profound knowledge of Nazi escape routes? Sweden isn't even mentioned once there.


Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Better to join the war criminals. <snip>
Vixen has been whitewashing Finnish history before.
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Last edited by ddt; 9th December 2017 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 9th December 2017, 09:48 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
We've gone over this before and (a) the Mannerheim line was not the pre-1939 border but a defensive line within pre-1939 Finland, and (b) the Finnish army did cross the old border and conducted navy operations on Lake Ladoga together with the German navy.


I wonder how that went in Operation Arctic Fox, where a joint German-Finnish army tried to invade the Soviet Union and cut off the Murmansk railroad.
The following three Finnish service personnel, who were recommended for German decorations for their activities in joint operations, are noteworthy
... offered the Iron Cross for their wartime service: Leo Skurnik, Salomon Klass, and Dina Poljakoff. Major Leo Skurnik, a district medical officer in the Finnish Army, organized an evacuation of a German field hospital when it came under Soviet shelling. More than 600 patients, including SS soldiers, were evacuated. Captain Salomon Klass, also of the Finnish Army, who had lost an eye in the Winter War, led a Finnish unit that rescued a German company that had been surrounded by the Soviets. Dina Poljakoff, a member of Lotta Svärd, the Finnish women's auxiliary service, was a nursing assistant who helped tend to German wounded, and came to be greatly admired by her patients.
They are noteworthy because they were Jews. None of them accepted the German medals.
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Old 10th December 2017, 03:14 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Better to join the war criminals.

Then we have quaint details like the Einsatzkommando Finland, of course, participating in the "anti-Partisan" (Jew-killing) operations of Nazi Germany in the northern USSR, and "selecting" people to be "handed over" to the Germans for "special treatment" (or whatever euphemism they used). But you're right, the finnish officers in EK Finland were just proud patriots, not at all collaborators with the Germans

I have that book, and used it for my own research. Yes, there was an Einsatzkommando unit set up in Salla, and of course, there were fascists, although not to the extent of a 'Quisling government' as we saw in Norway. These fascists managed to send nine Finnish Jews to European concentration camps and that is a blot on Finland's history.

However, Sweden's record is poor. Although at the beginning of WW2 it took in boatloads of Jewish refuges desperate to escape, it soon turned many boats away (as did Finland).

Yes, Finland were 'Brothers in Arms' as it were (as per the title of the book you reference) in that they approached the Russian border together with the Germans. However, the Germans were part of the Operation Barbarossa and the Finns wanted back their Karelian borders.

The Finnish army was quite separate ('the Karelian army') apart from one division (VI) which was under joint German command. Bear in mind, Finland was never an Axis member, it was not fascist in its aims, as Germany was. The attack on Russia by Hitler on three fronts, the north (Leningrad) the Don and Stalingrad (the South) was drawn up in top secrecy and carried out at lightning speed, before the Russians had a chance to react effectively.

Yes, some of the Finnish generals had been friends pre-War with the German generals. Pre-1939 no-one knew about the plans for a Holocaust or Hitler's crazy plan to exterminate the Slavs (the Russians and East Europeans) in order to gain lebensraum, so hindsight is a fine thing. At the time, it was a bunch of old patriots dreaming about the old Prussia and the romantic notion of a 'Germania' (extended Germany) after a poem of the same name eulogising Frederick the Great.

There was galloping inflation in Germany, economic unrest in Russia, the fallout from the Bolshevik uprising, as Stalin purged his former comrades, etc, etc.

It was because of the surprise arrival of German troops at Turku to make their way across Finland to get to Leningrad, that caused Churchill to declare war on Finland (there was no military action, however).

To claim Finland was part of the Axis or quasi-Quisling as was Norway, is to display ignorance of the facts.
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Old 10th December 2017, 03:21 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Amongst which Willy Brandt.

And provided extensive humanitarian aid abroad.

Dutch famine 1944-1945:


Raoul Wallenberg:


White Buses:

The portrayal of Sweden as the 'great heroes' is very annoying as the Swedes did little to help their neighbours against Russia, it was a haven for war criminals (I have the newspaper clippings, including Swedish newspapers) it turned away many many refuges.

So, like Ireland and the USA (who only joined WW2 at the last minute) countries like Finland, Great Britain, France, the Norwegian resistance movement, et al, were pretty much on their own.

Being neutral is like being a fake 'conscientious objector': you get to reap the benefits that other people have had to sacrifice their lives for.
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Old 10th December 2017, 03:23 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
No, language is a major part of ethnicity.

Besides that, as 52ka the inhabitants didn't speak Finnish they wouldn't have called the place Finland, nor would any foreigners have done so, so it's nonsense to say how Finland looked 52ka.

And besides that, 52ka there was no notion of states.
You didn't notice that whoever drew up that map was being tongue-in-cheek?

Finns have never called themselves 'Finland' anyway.
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Old 10th December 2017, 03:32 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
It's Jäger, or Jaeger if you can't find the umlaut on your keyboard. A very odd spelling mistake for someone who claims to know German.


We've gone over this before and (a) the Mannerheim line was not the pre-1939 border but a defensive line within pre-1939 Finland, and (b) the Finnish army did cross the old border and conducted navy operations on Lake Ladoga together with the German navy.


I wonder how that went in Operation Arctic Fox, where a joint German-Finnish army tried to invade the Soviet Union and cut off the Murmansk railroad.


[ citation required ]

Maybe you could edit this wiki article with your profound knowledge of Nazi escape routes? Sweden isn't even mentioned once there.



Vixen has been whitewashing Finnish history before.

As mentioned, there was one division that was a joint German one, the sixth division as yes, there were some Finnish Generals ( a minority) who were in with the fascists.

However, the Finnish Army proper was completely separate and independent from the Germans and had wholly different aims. The Finns, for example, had plenty of Jewish soldiers who were free to practice their religious beliefs.

From your source (wiki):

Quote:
The SS-Infantry Kampfgruppe Nord was created, consisting of the 6th and 7th Motorized SS Infantry Regiments, two artillery battalions, and one reconnaissance battalion. This unit was primarily an untrained police unit and unsuited for arctic warfare. <snip> The unit was renamed the 6th SS Mountain Division Nord and was led by General Demelhuber.

To extrapolate from this, as you have done, that the entire Finnish Army were joint Nazis with the Germans, is to show woeful ignorance of historical facts.
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Old 10th December 2017, 03:43 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Being neutral is like being a fake 'conscientious objector': you get to reap the benefits that other people have had to sacrifice their lives for.
Being a co-belligerent with the aggressor in the biggest war ever fought, is surely worse than neutrality - by far worse. "Reap the benefits" is what the Nazis were able to do on account of Finnish participation in the war, as some Soviet resources were diverted away from the Germans to the Finnish front, which also covered part of the blockade round Leningrad.
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Old 10th December 2017, 04:11 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Being a co-belligerent with the aggressor in the biggest war ever fought, is surely worse than neutrality - by far worse. "Reap the benefits" is what the Nazis were able to do on account of Finnish participation in the war, as some Soviet resources were diverted away from the Germans to the Finnish front, which also covered part of the blockade round Leningrad.
There are two sides to any war. From the Russian POV, Germany were their age old foes.

As the Allied Forces in partnership with the Russians won the war, we have had to tolerate the spectacle of the Russians laying it on thickly about how badly treated they were. In Finland, any celebration of Finnish war victories (for example one of the biggest battles in history at Tali-Ihantala has to be done discreetly, so as not to upset them.

Someone planned a celebration of the Continuation War heroes at a cemetery in the SW region and the local authorities banned it.

So, we get to hear poor poor Russia's side and it swamps wikipedia, yet Stalin murdered twice as many of its own citizens as Germany.

Of course, comparisons are odious and two wrongs don't make a right, or any other homily you can dream up, but you know what I am sayin'?

So, 'neutral' countries like Sweden and Ireland can smugly sit on the fence and brag about their 'neutrality', yet they harboured Nazi war criminals and helped them escape (Sweden) and Lord Haw-Haw taunted the Brits (Ireland).

Gimme a break.
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Old 10th December 2017, 04:28 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The portrayal of Sweden as the 'great heroes' is very annoying as the Swedes did little to help their neighbours against Russia, it was a haven for war criminals (I have the newspaper clippings, including Swedish newspapers) it turned away many many refuges.

So, like Ireland and the USA (who only joined WW2 at the last minute) countries like Finland, Great Britain, France, the Norwegian resistance movement, et al, were pretty much on their own.

Being neutral is like being a fake 'conscientious objector': you get to reap the benefits that other people have had to sacrifice their lives for.
After the USA was attacked, and had war declared against them.
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Old 10th December 2017, 04:39 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The portrayal of Sweden as the 'great heroes' is very annoying
So what has Finland done to alleviate the hunger of my mom and her family and her neighbours?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
as the Swedes did little to help their neighbours against Russia,
Duh, they were neutral.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
it was a haven for war criminals (I have the newspaper clippings, including Swedish newspapers) it turned away many many refuges.
Then scan them in and post them here.
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Last edited by ddt; 10th December 2017 at 05:23 AM.
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Old 10th December 2017, 05:19 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They had their own army and never collaborated with the Germans, apart from one battalion,
A battalion has, depending on the army, a size of 300-800 men.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Finnish army was quite separate ('the Karelian army') apart from one division (VI) which was under joint German command.
A division has size 10,000-15,000 men.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As mentioned, there was one division that was a joint German one, the sixth division as yes, there were some Finnish Generals ( a minority) who were in with the fascists.

However, the Finnish Army proper was completely separate and independent from the Germans and had wholly different aims.
You just conceded that one division of the Finnish Army was under German command, and then you go on to claim that the Finnish Army was completely separate from the German army? That is some bad lying.

It's clear you're whitewashing Finnish WW2 history.

Moreover, there's the Finnish Naval Detachment K:
Quote:
A combined Finnish-German-Italian unit, the Laivasto-osasto K (LOs.K., Naval Detachment K) was formed on 17 May 1942, consisting of the four Italian MAS boats, four German KM minelayers and the Finnish motor torpedo boat Sisu. The German and Italian vessels were grouped into two units under Finnish command.
Their task was to interrupt the supply lines to Leningrad, so Finland clearly contributed to the Siege. That runs counter to your claim that Finland was only in it to retake the territory lost in the Winter War.

There's also the Finnish occupation of East Karelia, which had never been Finnish.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No Finn with any self-respect EVER. saluted a German officer.
How did those soldiers in the 6th division do that, not salute their German peers or superiors?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Finland was never part of the Axis,
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
To claim Finland was part of the Axis or quasi-Quisling as was Norway, is to display ignorance of the facts.
Those are your strawmen. There were only two Axis powers: Germany and Italy. The rest were their allies.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
To extrapolate from this, as you have done, that the entire Finnish Army were joint Nazis with the Germans, is to show woeful ignorance of historical facts.
And that's also a strawman.

Your claims that the Finnish Army was completely separate from the German one, and that Finland only pursued the aim of retaking the lost territories and never crossed the pre-1939 border simply don't stand up to scrutiny.

Finland was as much an Axis ally as Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary and Slovakia. And to its credit, like Hungary under Horthy, it refused to send its Jewish citizens to Auschwitz.
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Old 10th December 2017, 05:28 AM   #54
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Anyway, congrats Finland. I bet you had a good reason for joining forces with the Nazis.

Now, here's a video from Finland's best YouTube channel to cheer everyone up:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

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Old 10th December 2017, 05:28 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There are two sides to any war ... we have had to tolerate the spectacle of the Russians laying it on thickly about how badly treated they were ... So, we get to hear poor poor Russia's side and it swamps wikipedia, yet Stalin murdered twice as many of its own citizens as Germany.

... you know what I am sayin'?
Yes, I've heard stuff like this before.
Quote:
Gimme a break.
I thought you were arguing that there weren't many fascists among the Finns, but your diatribe in this post indicates that there is at least one of them.
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Old 10th December 2017, 05:58 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There are two sides to any war. From the Russian POV, Germany were their age old foes.
Huh? Can you expand on this "age old" Russian-German emnity? I don't get further than WW1.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Someone planned a celebration of the Continuation War heroes at a cemetery in the SW region and the local authorities banned it.
[ citation required ]

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So, we get to hear poor poor Russia's side and it swamps wikipedia,
[ citation required ]

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
yet Stalin murdered twice as many of its own citizens as Germany.
No he didn't. Actually, Stalin murdered many, many more of his own citizens.

Hitler murdered a few thousand disabled in Aktion T4, around 150,000 German Jews (including Austrian ones), and then a couple of other categories I don't care to look up, but it's still in the hundreds of thousands.

For Stalin we have the Holomodor - serious estimates vary between 1 and 5 million - and the Gulag, where estimates of death vary between 1 and 2 million. And then there's the purges and the show trials.

But that still doesn't surpass the extent of the Holocaust-in-wider-sense, i.e., including gays, Roma&Sinti, Slavs and other "Untermenschen". That was about 11 million. And that's the difference between Hitler and Stalin: Hitler went on a conquering spree to occupy all of Europe and drag people from all those conquered countries to his extermination camps.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Of course, comparisons are odious and two wrongs don't make a right, or any other homily you can dream up, but you know what I am sayin'?
You mean, like in the other thread where you insisted ad nauseam that the Holocaust was all legal and dandy? It's almost as if you want to say that poor Hitler should have been able to finish his job.
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Old 10th December 2017, 06:48 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So, 'neutral' countries like Sweden and Ireland can smugly sit on the fence and brag about their 'neutrality', yet they harboured Nazi war criminals and helped them escape (Sweden) and Lord Haw-Haw taunted the Brits (Ireland).
I really don't think that independent neutral Ireland can be made responsible for lord Haw Haw. On the contrary, per wiki:
It was during the Irish War for Independence, that Joyce had his first taste in politics, he was recruited by Capt. Patrick William Keating as a courier for British Army intelligence in Galway, who were then fighting against the Irish Republican Army. He was known to have hung around with Black and Tans at Lenaboy Castle, which reportedly resulted in the Irish Republican Army dispatching a volunteer, Michael Molloy, to murder Joyce on his way home from school in December 1921, although minors were normally excluded from being executed by the IRA ...

On 22 October 1924, while stewarding a meeting in support of Jack Lazarus (the Conservative Party candidate for Lambeth North in the general election), Joyce was attacked by Communists and received a deep razor slash that ran across his right cheek. It left a permanent scar which ran from the earlobe to the corner of the mouth. While he claimed that his attackers were Jewish, his first wife said that "it wasn't a Jewish Communist who disfigured him .... He was knifed by an Irish woman."
Joyce was conceived in the womb of British imperialism, and nourished in its bosom. But that ideology wasn't extreme enough to satisfy the tastes he had acquired in the company of the Black and Tans, so he transferred his allegiance to the Nazis, and paid the penalty at the end of a rope.
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Old 10th December 2017, 07:05 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The portrayal of Sweden as the 'great heroes' is very annoying as the Swedes did little to help their neighbours against Russia, it was a haven for war criminals (I have the newspaper clippings, including Swedish newspapers) it turned away many many refuges.

So, like Ireland and the USA (who only joined WW2 at the last minute) countries like Finland, Great Britain, France, the Norwegian resistance movement, et al, were pretty much on their own.

Being neutral is like being a fake 'conscientious objector': you get to reap the benefits that other people have had to sacrifice their lives for.
I would hardly call fighting both theaters of war from late 1941 to 1945 "the last minute".
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Old 10th December 2017, 07:47 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
No, language is a major part of ethnicity.

Besides that, as 52ka the inhabitants didn't speak Finnish they wouldn't have called the place Finland, nor would any foreigners have done so, so it's nonsense to say how Finland looked 52ka.

And besides that, 52ka there was no notion of states.
Also, there's no archaeological record in Finland older than about 10,000 bp.
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Old 10th December 2017, 07:57 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
So what has Finland done to alleviate the hunger of my mom and her family and her neighbours?


Duh, they were neutral.


Then scan them in and post them here.
Not today. However, I did come across this transcription I did from the original at BL Newspaper Library, hence no internet link, of one Nazi, whom the Swedes (for a change) did intercept:


Quote:
11-10-1943 MORGON – TIDNINGEN

Anthoni var en nitsk hantlangare åt Gestapo

Statspolitischeten som flydde till Sverige har många liv på sitt samvete


Den förre finske statspolischelen Anthoni, Gestapos handgångne man, som f.n. befinner sig I Stockholm och på måndagen underkastades förhör, “hör tydligen till de icke önskvårda flyktingarna.

En person som själv lidit av hans framfart har tillställt MT följande meritlista.

Som tidigare politisk flykting I Finland och . ögonvittne till hans utomordentlugt intensive arbete I Gestapos intresse – vill jag erinra denne herre om något, då han nu har det lugn som behöves för att ordna sitt samvetes kartotek.

Då herr Anthoni. på sin tid övertog ämbetet som chef för statspolisen, tänkte all flyktingar I Finland att en herre, som älskar vin, kvinnor och sang måste vara en genytlig person som också samvetsgrant och rättvist sköter sitt ämbete. Men snart fingo dess människor, som berövats sitt hemland lära sig något annat.

Polispresident lät inspärra alla utlänningar I concentrations lägret Torneå. Bland dessa fångar voro utlänningar, som under vinterkriget deltagit som frivilliga I den finska armén och innehade utmärkelser.

Jag erinrar bara om majoren dr Brinckholm, schweizisk medborgare, som deltog år 1939 I vinterkriget som frivillig I finska armén. Ehuru han var 66 år gammal, sov han bredvid mig på golvet och deltog I en hungerstrejk. De judiska utlänningarna mobiliserades till tvångs arbete. Många judar kommo I fängelse; de sutto utan anledning inspärrada I over två år, och blevo misshandlade och pryglade.

Jag erinrar om grosshandlaren. Brukman från Wien, om av Er kollega misshandlades med. Er vetskap. Denne fånge var 50 år gammal och sjuk. Efter Himmlers besök I Helsingfor, där Anthoni fick ett cigarrettetui av silver med inskriptionen “För trogen tjänst – Himmler”, deporterade denne duktige polispresident ganska många utlänningar till Tyskland och man bör betänka, att han gjorde det på egen hand utan regeringens vetskap.
Här måste man framhålla, att dessa flyktingar, judar från Wien, redan fore kriget, år 1938, kommit till Finland på viserat pass och aged fullkomlig asylrätt. För att inte regeringen av en slump skulle få veta detta, deportarades dessa stackars människor påAnthonis befallning extra, genom löjtnant Kaukanen. Jag erinrar också om den belgiske medborgaren haljuden Busch, en gang frivillig I vinterkriget 1939, belönad med Mannerheimsmedaljen; han var till och med gift en finska. Också han blev deportarad och hans fru är nu änka.

Jag påminner om de fyra unga polska soldaterna Skwara, Maiernis, Dabrowski och Trubicyb, vilka deporterades och I dag äro begravna I concentrations lägret Oranienburg.

Guds kvarnar mala långsamt men säkert.

I dag är Anthoni själv flykting I utlandet, jagad av rättvisana tjänare och plågad av sitt samvete.
11-10-1943 MORGON – TIDNINGEN

translation:

Quote:
Anthoni was a zealous henchman for the Gestapo

Political politics that fled to Sweden have many lives on their conscience


The former Finnish state police officer Anthoni, Gestapo, man-in-law, as before. are in Stockholm, and on Monday were questioned, "apparently refers to the unwanted refugees.

A person who has suffered from his progress has granted MT the following qualifications list.

As a former political refugee in Finland and. eyewitness to his extraordinarily intensive work In Gestapo's interest - I would like to remind this gentleman of something, as he now has the peace needed to arrange his co-op.

Then Mr. Anthoni. At the time, the office took over as head of state police, all refugees in Finland thought that a gentleman who loves wine, women and song must be a nice person who also conscientiously and fairly carries out his duties. But soon her people, who were deprived of their homeland, learned something else.

Police president let all foreigners in the camp of Torneå shelter. Among these prisoners were foreigners who, during the winter war, participated as volunteers in the Finnish army and held awards.

I only recall the Major Dr Brinckholm, Swiss Citizen, who participated in 1939 in the winter war as a volunteer in the Finnish army. Although he was 66 years old, he slept next to me on the floor and participated in a hunger strike. The Jewish foreigners were mobilized for forced labor. Many Jews came into jail; they left for no more reason for more than two years, and were battered and smashed.

I recall the wholesale dealer. Wife from Vienna, if your colleague was beaten with. Is knowledge. This prisoner was 50 years old and sick. After Himmler's visit to Helsingfor, where Anthoni received a cigarette purse of silver with the inscription "For faithful service - Himmler", this skilled police president deported quite a few foreigners to Germany, and it should be remembered that he did it on his own without the government's knowledge.

Here, it must be noted that these refugees, Jews from Vienna, already before the war, in 1938, arrived in Finland on visas and aged full rights of asylum. In order not to know the government by chance, these poor people were deported by Antonio Luther's command extra by Lieutenant Kaukan. I also recall the Belgian citizen Haljud Busch, once volunteered in the 1939 winter war, rewarded with the Mannerheim Medal; He even married a Finnish. He also became deported and his wife is now widow.

I recall the four young Polish soldiers Skwara, Maiernis, Dabrowski and Trubicyb, who were deported and today are buried in the concentration camp Oranienburg.

God's mills slowly but surely grind.

Today, Anthoni himself is fleeing abroad, chased by fair servants and afflicted by his conscience.

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Old 10th December 2017, 08:22 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Also, there's no archaeological record in Finland older than about 10,000 bp.
There have been many Stone Age artefacts found (flints, etc) in excavations.

Quote:
The Stone Age was a broad prehistoric period during which stone was widely used to make implements with an edge, a point, or a percussion surface. The period lasted roughly 3.4 million years[1] and ended between 8700 BCE and 2000 BCE with the advent of metalworking.[citation needed]
One such centre is Kierikki:

Quote:
Kierikki is an area located in Yli-Ii by the Ii River in Finland. Kierikki is about ten kilometres to southeast and towards Pudasjärvi from Yli-Ii’s centre. Kierikki is also a surname in Finland which has come to be used after the Ii River’s rapid named Kierikki.

Kierikki is one of the most important archaeological exploratory areas in Finland. Excavations started in 1960 and they still continue yearly. Research has significantly changed the view of Northern Finland in Stone Age. Archaeologists used to think that people in Stone Age were nomads, people who change their residence along with the seasons. In fact, people lived in large villages the whole year. This was possible because of the massive fish and seal catches people got at the time. Fish and seal surpluses were also used in trade. Arrow heads made of flint were traded from Russia and amber ornaments from Baltic states.

Stone Age chewing gum made of birch bark was found in Kierikki’s excavations in the summer 2007. The finding was also reported by BBC.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kierikki


Then, genealogically, there is the Kostenski find in Russia (37K) and also Ust-Isham man (not on diagram) from West Siberia aged >45K. Don't forget the Neanderthals, of up to 52K years ago.
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File Type: jpg Genome sequencing of ancient humans - new scientist.jpg (55.8 KB, 2 views)
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Old 10th December 2017, 08:34 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
A battalion has, depending on the army, a size of 300-800 men.

A division has size 10,000-15,000 men.


You just conceded that one division of the Finnish Army was under German command, and then you go on to claim that the Finnish Army was completely separate from the German army? That is some bad lying.

It's clear you're whitewashing Finnish WW2 history.

Moreover, there's the Finnish Naval Detachment K:

Their task was to interrupt the supply lines to Leningrad, so Finland clearly contributed to the Siege. That runs counter to your claim that Finland was only in it to retake the territory lost in the Winter War.

There's also the Finnish occupation of East Karelia, which had never been Finnish.


How did those soldiers in the 6th division do that, not salute their German peers or superiors?



Those are your strawmen. There were only two Axis powers: Germany and Italy. The rest were their allies.


And that's also a strawman.

Your claims that the Finnish Army was completely separate from the German one, and that Finland only pursued the aim of retaking the lost territories and never crossed the pre-1939 border simply don't stand up to scrutiny.

Finland was as much an Axis ally as Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary and Slovakia. And to its credit, like Hungary under Horthy, it refused to send its Jewish citizens to Auschwitz.
You are wrong. It is important to try to be as accurate as possible, as hyberbole doesn't override fact.

My notes in relation to an article from: 16.7.1943 TIMES (I researched this first hand):


HITLER’S PRETORIAN GUARD¹

ENLISTMENT OF FOREIGNERS IN THE WAFFEN-SS

A FIGHTING POLICE FORCE

SS stands for Schutz-Staffel – Himmler’s uniformed security police.

SS Standarte Nordland – Scandinavian arm was founded on Hitler’s birthday² within a fortnight of the invasion of Denmark and Norway.

SS Standarte Nordland merged with SS Westland (Holland and Belgium) to form SS Division Viking and appeared on the Eastern Front in early 1942.

After a spell, a percentage of the Viking Division was drafted into the armed SS (=Waffen SS).

Waffen SS was Hitler’s own personal bodyguard: the Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler. It was reorganized in 1940 as a corps of fighting police.

It paraded in all of its formidable panoply as and independent command outside the Zeughaus on Heroes Day (March 20th). 1942.

A circular issuing ‘secret instructions’ explaining the meaning of the corps of drawn up in 1940 by Keitel ³ to senior officers of Reichwehr : -

• Waffen SS was to be capable on any and every decision representing the internal authority of the Reich
• Prime function is to repress civilian disturbances
• An elite State Police of “best German blood” who “will never fraternalize with the proletariat”
• It was to be very disciplined
• Very tough
• Fully equipped with every arm
• An independent army
• With its own aircraft.
__________________________________________________ _________________________

¹From the Latin “praetor” = commander. “Commander’s Army”

²b. 20.4.1889 d. 30.4.1945. The invasion of Norway was complete by 10th June1940

³Wilhelm Bodewin Johann Gustav Keitel (22 September 1882–16 October 1946) was a German field marshal (Generalfeldmarschall). As head of the High Command of the Armed Forces, he was one of Germany's most senior military leaders during World War II. At the allied court at Nuremberg he was tried, sentenced to death and hanged as a major war criminal. (Wikipedia).

 Reichwehr - The military force numbering 500,000 men, organized in Germany in 1919. It was reduced to 100,000 by 1921 under the terms of the Versailles Treaty “Reichwehr” literally refers to the armed forces of the Reich, including both the Army and Navy of the Weimar Republic. (Wikipedia)

SS Divisions - (Schutzstaffel); "Black Shirts.” An organization created and commanded by Hitler himself, first as bodyguards and later in control of organizing and running the concentration camps
The total strength of Waffen SS is estimated to be circa 250,000, of which 50,000 are so-called Völkdeutsche .

The training school of Standarte for Nordic volunteers is at Sennheim in the Vosges ¹.

SWEDISH RECRUITS

Bad Tölz is a junker school for officers and NCO’s for the Waffen SS.

According to a Swedish press report Nazi agents are regularly recruiting Swedish soldiers and smuggling them out of the country.

Schooled politically as apostles of Großgermanien (Great Germany) to serve as N.S. propagandists and even as a Fifth Columnist.


¹In Sennheim in Alsace, a camp created in the SS volunteers from all European countries in addition to the hard sports and military training in the spirit of the Waffen SS of Nazi ideology, and made for the tasks in a new Europe after the War , have been trained. In addition, the SS-Junker school in Bad Tolz a European officer corps herangebildet, which in every respect a selection represented. (‘Forum Stirpes Net’)


Notandum

During the spring 1941, two new Standarten (Regiments) arrived: the 6th and 7th. After a short time, the 6th SS, with large elements from the 9th SS, moved into positions at Salla in Northern-Finland. General von Falkenhorst did, however, not trust their fighting ability very much, because even If the formations were well equipped, the men were poorly trained. The two latter regiments crossed the Finnish/Norwegian border, and were ready at Salla the 22nd June, 1941.

As the attack on Soviet came, the divisions, now usually called "Brigades", were thrown into the battle at Markajärvi-Salla. They suffered great losses, and were an expected disappointment to the German commanders:

Falkenhorst and Buschenhagen. The SS forces lost 700 men the first two days in combat with strong Russian forces (300 KIA and 400 WIA).

The Brigade got a new unit attached, SS-Gebirgsartillerie-Regiment 6, and was now redesigned as a Division. During the autumn 1941, the Division was handed over to the battle-hardened Finnish General Hjalmar Siilasvuo (this was the only time that an SS Division was commanded by a foreign officer), and took positions at Louchi/Kiestinki. Gen. Siilasvuo was no bad choice for an Army Corps commander: he had served in the Finnish famous volunteer "Jägerbatallion 27" during WW 1, on the German side. (Source: Axis History)


One regiment does not an army make.
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Old 10th December 2017, 08:44 AM   #63
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Old 10th December 2017, 08:52 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There have been many Stone Age artefacts found (flints, etc) in excavations.

One such centre is Kierikki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kierikki
Which doesn't contradict Cleon's claim of "not earlier than 10ka".

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Then, genealogically, there is the Kostenski find in Russia (37K) and also Ust-Isham man (not on diagram) from West Siberia aged >45K. Don't forget the Neanderthals, of up to 52K years ago.
Russia != Finland. And Neanderthals go back much further than 52ka.

But by all means, keep digging your hole deeper.
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Old 10th December 2017, 08:53 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Huh? Can you expand on this "age old" Russian-German emnity? I don't get further than WW1.


[ citation required ]


[ citation required ]


No he didn't. Actually, Stalin murdered many, many more of his own citizens.

Hitler murdered a few thousand disabled in Aktion T4, around 150,000 German Jews (including Austrian ones), and then a couple of other categories I don't care to look up, but it's still in the hundreds of thousands.

For Stalin we have the Holomodor - serious estimates vary between 1 and 5 million - and the Gulag, where estimates of death vary between 1 and 2 million. And then there's the purges and the show trials.

But that still doesn't surpass the extent of the Holocaust-in-wider-sense, i.e., including gays, Roma&Sinti, Slavs and other "Untermenschen". That was about 11 million. And that's the difference between Hitler and Stalin: Hitler went on a conquering spree to occupy all of Europe and drag people from all those conquered countries to his extermination camps.


You mean, like in the other thread where you insisted ad nauseam that the Holocaust was all legal and dandy? It's almost as if you want to say that poor Hitler should have been able to finish his job.
Please do not ascribe base motives to me or put words in my mouth. You keep claiming that Hitler's victims were mostly outside of Germany. You are the apologists.

As for T4, which you mention, above; from my notes, again:

[Conti]: Not a Doctor you would want a visit from! Euthanasia program: In September 1939, the killing operation was expanded to include adults. Hitler first appointed Leonardo Conti, state secretary for health in the Reich Ministry of Interior, to direct adult euthanasia, telling him in the presence of Hans Heinrich Lammers and Martin Bormann "that he considered it appropriate that life unfit for living of severely insane patients should be ended by intervention that would result in death." Conti accepted the assignment, but he did not remain in charge long; within a few weeks, Hitler replaced him, turning once again to Brandt and Bouhler as his plenipotentiaries, so that Brack and the KdF could administer adult euthanasia alongside that for children. To avoid implicating the Chancellery, the staff administering the euthanasia killings moved from the KdF into a confiscated Jewish villa at Tiergarten Street number 4 and euthanasia was thus soon known as Operation T4, or simply as T4.

The method used to kill the children could not be used to kill the far larger number of adults. To accomplish its task, T4 therefore constructed killing centers, including gas chambers and crematoria, and developed a killing technique to select, transport, and "process" the victims. And always the killers robbed the corpses of their victims, taking gold teeth and bridge work to enrich the state as well as internal organs to enrich "scientific research." For this purpose, T4 established six killing centers – Brandenburg, Grafeneck, Hartheim, Sonnenstein, Bernburg, and Hadamar – but only four were ever operational at the same time. To hide the killings, T4 used subterfuge to fool the relatives; the killing centers camouflaged as hospitals wrote letters of condolence and issued fraudulent death certificates.
{Source now unknown}
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Old 10th December 2017, 08:59 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You are wrong. It is important to try to be as accurate as possible, as hyberbole doesn't override fact.

My notes in relation to an article from: 16.7.1943 TIMES (I researched this first hand):
You must have realized by now that "I researched this" from your hand is taken by most posters as a negative endorsement of its truth value?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
<snipped irrelevant bits>

One regiment does not an army make.
I don't care if that article was actually published as you copied it here or not. The subject of that article - Finnish volunteers in the Waffen-SS - was not the point. The point I made was that the Finnish 6th division (not a battalion, not a regiment, not an army but a division) was incorporated into the structure of the German Army during Operation Arctic Fox. The point I made was that there was a joint Finnish-German-Italian flotilla operating on Lake Ladoga.
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Old 10th December 2017, 09:01 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Please do not ascribe base motives to me or put words in my mouth. You keep claiming that Hitler's victims were mostly outside of Germany. You are the apologists.
How does that work? How is pointing out the well established fact that the Nazis killed more non-Germans than Germans defending Hitler?
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Old 10th December 2017, 09:11 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Which doesn't contradict Cleon's claim of "not earlier than 10ka".


Russia != Finland. And Neanderthals go back much further than 52ka.

But by all means, keep digging your hole deeper.
They had Border Controls...?
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Old 10th December 2017, 09:14 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
How does that work? How is pointing out the well established fact that the Nazis killed more non-Germans than Germans defending Hitler?
Jews, gypsies and homosexuals regarded themselves as 'German citizens'.

So, the Nazis put them on a train to camps outside Germany.

Doesn't make them any less German or the war crimes any less heinous.
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Old 10th December 2017, 09:18 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Jews, gypsies and homosexuals regarded themselves as 'German citizens'.

So, the Nazis put them on a train to camps outside Germany.

Doesn't make them any less German or the war crimes any less heinous.
You did not answer my question.
The Nazis killed more Jews, gypsies, gays, communists, enemy combatants and civilians from outside of Germany than from Germany. How is pointing that out defending Hitler?
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Old 10th December 2017, 09:21 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Not today.
Nor tomorrow, nor the day after, etc., because you simply don't have the evidence.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
However, I did come across this transcription I did from the original at BL Newspaper Library, hence no internet link, of one Nazi, whom the Swedes (for a change) did intercept:
So, as evidence that Sweden harboured many (German) Nazi war criminals, we get a report of one Finnish police officer who collaborated with the Gestapo who was caught.

I colour-coded the contradictions in this response for your convenience.

And you've got to wonder how a Finnish police officer managed to collaborate with the Gestapo, because, by Jove, Finland was not an ally of Nazi Germany.

(and I hope someone can provide a better translation, this one sucks).
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Old 10th December 2017, 09:31 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You must have realized by now that "I researched this" from your hand is taken by most posters as a negative endorsement of its truth value?


I don't care if that article was actually published as you copied it here or not. The subject of that article - Finnish volunteers in the Waffen-SS - was not the point. The point I made was that the Finnish 6th division (not a battalion, not a regiment, not an army but a division) was incorporated into the structure of the German Army during Operation Arctic Fox. The point I made was that there was a joint Finnish-German-Italian flotilla operating on Lake Ladoga.
This reminds me of the poster/s who insist that Finland is 'East Euopean' and was once under the heel of Stalin. It is so frustrating to keep correcting people.

The so-called Division VI joint German-Finnish/other regiment was commanded by the Germans. Mannerheim's Finnish army was separate and NOT. an AXIS arny (The Axis comprised Italy, Germany and Japan).

The Finnish Brothers-In-Arms Society State Visit to Germany 08-11-1942


A few introductory notes: Germany started its Judenrein (‘Jew- Free’) extermination program in January 1941, initially with small mobile Einsatzkommando units, and by June 1941, there were mass killings, the first in Poland and then in Soviet Russia. By October 1942, the TIMES was reporting ‘the extermination of over 1.2m Jews’ with another news story in the TIMES in 1942 reporting a community of 30,000 Jews killed, including 12,000 children. Reports (ibid) at the same time show repeated announcements by the Archbishop of Canterbury and Jewish elders from around the world about the plight that European Jews found themselves in. Thus, it was of common international knowledge, by the time of the HELSINGIN SANOMAT (8.11.1942) report, follows, as the Germans hardy bothered keeping the exterminations secret.

In addition, it is mentioned that the Finnish representative, Paavo Talvela, who received the Mannerheim Cross in 1941, went on the trip to Germany, in November 1942, at the invitation of one of the Third Reich’s leading commanders, General Josef Reinhardt, yet according to WIKIPEDIA (internet) it is claimed he was made “Finnish representative at the German High Command” from 1944, after the war, of the Group Olonets (Anuksen Ryhmä). This article shows quite clearly a high-level relationship between Finnish diplomats and the German SS at the height of the German assaults on Europe and its Jews, and internationally acknowledged well before 1944 and actually, Hannu Rautkallio in his book Finland and the Holocaust. researches evidence of Talvela’s state visit to SS leader Himmler during July 1942 as well as the story here relating to 6.11.1942.


Based on an article in HELSINGIN SANOMAT 8.11.1942 and widely reported in the press of the day:


Quote:
FINNISH BROTHERS-IN-ARMS SOCIETY OFFICIAL STATE VISIT TO GERMANY

REPORTING TO THE SOCIETY’S GERMAN DIRECTORS OF THE SOCIETY’S OFFICE AND OUTREACH WORK IN BERLIN

The Finnish Brothers-in-Arms Society deputation which during the week visited, by invitation of the N S (Nazional Socialist: “NAZI”) Reichkriegerbund in Germany, returned yesterday evening to Helsinki. The visit was remarkably successful and productive, and the delegation received a considerable amount of attention. Indeed, the Reichkriegerbund leader, Infantry General Reinhardt1 escorted the official party the entire time in an extensive sightseeing tour and at the same time, with the Divisional Chief Major, von Rechenberg 2, as well as Captain zur See von Klick.

The Finnish state party consisted of nine people and its leader, Works General Talvela3. Yesterday evening, we met Brother-in-Arms Society Chief Officer, Captain Veikko Loppi 4who related in detail a few anecdotes of particularly successful visitors.

In the wide-ranging tour the Finns went to East Prussia5to Königsberg6and Tannenberg7,where they laid a wreath.

In Berlin the day was spent at a programme of performances which involved a trip to a stadium and then to Zeughaus8in which there was an extensive weapons museum and a series of exhibitions of the Great Moments in German History depicting works of art. The group visit to the grave of the Unknown Soldier was an especially ceremonious occasion, where there was a large crowd representing the Germans, including approximately ten Reichkriegerbund Generals belonging to the favourable world war excursion in Africa in which the fighting soldiers had formed their own platoon.

A Guard of Honour was inspected by General Talvela, who also laid down a Finnish wreath.

In Berlin, acquaintance was also made with the Reichkriegerbund House where an introduction was given to the Society’s work and at the same time a report to the directors about the Finnish Brothers-in-Arms Society activities and its outreach work. There was in addition a German-Finnish Society foundation ceremony.

The entire group were taken on a journey consisting of a few days to visit the Kiffhäuser9.At Harta (…?) mountain situated nearby the Reichkriegerbund Head Quarters, where the Society is established, is an Officers’ Home and a Children’s Home as well as a hotel. This Society’s Official State Head Quarters in which the Society’s most dearest memory is founded has awoken already, Aryan (Arjantämistä)- led by General Reinhardt. On the mountain peak is a War Memorial erected in 1871 when the new nation was founded 10 it was rescued from its rest of a thousand years and is the oldest known.

HELSINGIN SANOMAT 8.11.1942

1 General Josef Reinhardt, Imperial Warrior Leader, he re-inaugaurated the Kiffhäuser Monument in 1933 with Hitler, 500 flags and Nazi German Reich Warriors(Note: not to be confused with Reinhard Himmler who gave his name to the Aktion Reinhard death camp program)

2 Baron Georg Albrecht von Rechenberg , (1861 – 1944) Deutsch OstAfrika’s Governor 1906- 1912 (Note: he was embroiled in a homosexual scandal in German East Africa with male servants.)


3Paavo Talvela (1897 – 1973) Mannerheim Cross, 1941. From 1944 was made Finnish representative a the German High Command of the Group Olonets (Anuksen Ryhmiä). But appears to have been an SS favourite before that.

4 Veikko Loppi (1.2.1907 – 27.3.2005). Aseveliliitto founder 1940. 240,000 members. Claimed to carry out humanitarian work for orphans and injured veteran soldiers. From Helsingin Suomalainen Klubi, “In peacetime, the custodians of the allies demanded that Finland cease all “fascist-tendency” activities. Mannerheim and Pääsikivi opposed this unnoticed on the grounds that the Brothers-in-Arms Society was at the periphery of the movement.

5 East Prussia was est. 1871. It became Germany as part of the Weimar Republic. The northern part is now part of Lithuania and the southern part, Poland.

6Königsberg was the capital of East Prussia, now called Kaliningrad (1946). Famous for the four-day Battle of Königsberg.

7 Tannenberg was the scene of the Battle of Grunwald, as it was then known.

8 Zeughaus is the oldest structure in Berlin on the Unter den Linden. It was a Military Museum from 1875 (Wikipedia)

9 Named after the Kyffhäuser mountain range on the border of Thuringia and Saxony-Anhalt. The mythological Emperor Frederick von Hohenstaufen, known popularly as Barbarossa (“the Red-Bearded”) is said to be buried here. Operation Barbarossa was Hitler’s Code Name for the Artic War Excursions, 1941. Die Kiffhäuser Kaisersage Thurm ruins, the blacksmith The Blacksmith from Jutebok by Ludwig Bechstein 1847 is a well-known German fairytale, in which the Emperor Frederick is in the Cave of Kiffhäuser . In the poem Germania – The Winter by Heinrich Heine, 1844 the Kiffhäuser are again mentioned – “Yes, the whole world will be German! I thought of this mission, the universal domination of Germany, when I was walking with my dreams under the trees forever green my homeland – This is my patriotism.”

10 The Kiffhäuser Monument is also known as the Barbarossa Monument. It is at the summit of the Kyffhäuser mountain (1,574 feet) near Bad Frankenhausen in Thruingia. The Prussian dominated empire was founded in 1871. The monument features a sleeping Barbarossa about to wake up. It became a powerful symbol of the Third Reich when Hitler and Reinhardt resurrected the area in 1933 as a Nazi symbol..

IN THE WEEK THE JEWISH REFUGES WERE HANDED OVER TO THE NAZIS…(6.11.1942)

Eight Jewish refuges, including a woman and two children were “extradited” to Estonia from Helsinki (no mention in the Finnish papers as of this date). They were immediately either summarily executed by shooting or sent straight to Auschwitz. The woman and child have a living witness that as soon as they arrived at Auschwitz they were sent to the gas chambers. The sole survivor now lives in Israel and is wracked with grief over his dead wife and child. It is not known what happened to the other child.

So, yes, there is a clear record of Finnish generals being feted by Nazi Germany.

Yes, the Finnish fascists helped deport eight/nine Jewish refuges and this is a huge blot on the country's history.

However, Finland was NOT a part of the Axis.
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Old 10th December 2017, 09:35 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Nor tomorrow, nor the day after, etc., because you simply don't have the evidence.


So, as evidence that Sweden harboured many (German) Nazi war criminals, we get a report of one Finnish police officer who collaborated with the Gestapo who was caught.

I colour-coded the contradictions in this response for your convenience.

And you've got to wonder how a Finnish police officer managed to collaborate with the Gestapo, because, by Jove, Finland was not an ally of Nazi Germany.

(and I hope someone can provide a better translation, this one sucks).
This is because I was researching a book I wanted to write about Finland and the Holocaust and I was determined to get to the truth, hence my visits to see original newspaper articles, rather than jaded 'script' estbalishment textbooks.

I transcribed the ones that were directly relevant to the topic matter. I have a box file with a load of photocopied news clipping, and I will not be searching it today. But I will have a look soon.
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Old 10th December 2017, 09:37 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
However, Finland was NOT a part of the Axis.
Nobody has claimed they were. Just that they allied with Nazi Germany when they thought it would work in their favour.
Bad decisions have been made in the history of any country. I thought this thread was meant to celebrate the centennial, not trying to whitewash history.

ETA: but if you really want to carry on, I ask you once again: how does pointing out who the victims of the Nazis were make someone an 'apologist for Hitler'?

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Old 10th December 2017, 09:55 AM   #75
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Sad to see that a thread about congratulating Finnland on its anniversary has turned into some idiotic hair splitting about nazis and the good Swedes.

Anyway, congratulations to Vixen and other Suomi here! Ours is next year
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Old 10th December 2017, 10:29 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Jews, gypsies and homosexuals regarded themselves as 'German citizens'.

So, the Nazis put them on a train to camps outside Germany.

Doesn't make them any less German or the war crimes any less heinous.
Jesus *********** wept, I knew you weren't too well read about WWII, but this is atrociously wrong. There were relatively few Jews, Roma and Sinti in Germany - no more than perhaps 200,000 altogether. About three million of the Jews murdered in the Holocaust lived in Poland. About two million lived in the Soviet Union. About half a million in Hungary. The rest (Between 150,000 and 10,000 per following country) mainly lived in Czechoslovakia, the Netherlands, Romania, France, Greece, Yugoslavia, Austria, Belgium.
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Old 10th December 2017, 12:08 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There have been many Stone Age artefacts found (flints, etc) in excavations.
Well, yes, there have been many stone age artifcats found everywhere humans have developed any sort of society. However, no sites in Finland go back farther than about 10,000 years.

There are certainly human sites older than 10,000 years, but as far as I'm aware (and I try to follow such things), none of them are in Finland.

Sorry, Vixen, your "Finland for 52,000 years" map is nonsense.

ETA: Just to clear something up, since this is a common misconception - terms like "Stone Age" and "Iron Age" don't refer to actual dates, they refer to stages of development that are often considered somewhat obsolete in modern scientific parlance.
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Old 10th December 2017, 12:25 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
ETA: Just to clear something up, since this is a common misconception - terms like "Stone Age" and "Iron Age" don't refer to actual dates, they refer to stages of development that are often considered somewhat obsolete in modern scientific parlance.
Indeed. As far as we know (unless som archaelogical finds that I'm unaware of contradicts this) Finland was likely largely "stone age" until fairly recently. Our earliest source, Tacitus (58-120 AD), specifically mentions that the Finnae of far northern "Germania" used arrows of bone, rather than iron. However the description is a heavily stereotped "noble savage" image, so it should be taken with a grain of salt.
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Old 10th December 2017, 12:41 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
Sad to see that a thread about congratulating Finnland on its anniversary has turned into some idiotic hair splitting about nazis and the good Swedes.

Anyway, congratulations to Vixen and other Suomi here! Ours is next year
Thanks, kayle! Congratulations to Poland: what they did to help the war effort in WWII was absolutely magnificent.
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Old 10th December 2017, 12:45 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Indeed. As far as we know (unless som archaelogical finds that I'm unaware of contradicts this) Finland was likely largely "stone age" until fairly recently. Our earliest source, Tacitus (58-120 AD), specifically mentions that the Finnae of far northern "Germania" used arrows of bone, rather than iron. However the description is a heavily stereotped "noble savage" image, so it should be taken with a grain of salt.

Try Wolf Cave.

I know for a fact there have been Stone Age finds in parts of Finland.
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