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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Finland history

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Old 10th December 2017, 12:51 PM   #81
Vixen
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
You did not answer my question.
The Nazis killed more Jews, gypsies, gays, communists, enemy combatants and civilians from outside of Germany than from Germany. How is pointing that out defending Hitler?
OK so when I said Stalin killed more than twice as many as the Germans. ddt picked up on that I dropped a comma, or forgot to cross a t, to score a point that I used the phrase 'own citizens' (it could be argued that as Germany was occupying these countries, they were its own citizens, just as Stalin's victims were probably largely non-Russians).


It doesn't change the thrust that just because Germans were 'baddies', it doesn't make Russia the 'good guys', either.
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Old 10th December 2017, 12:59 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Try Wolf Cave.

I know for a fact there have been Stone Age finds in parts of Finland.
How does this contradict the assertion that Finland was a stone age civilization 2000 years ago?

Also, the "Wolf Cave" is HIGHLY controversial. Its apparent uniqueness makes it even more unlikely that the findings are actually anthropogenic.
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Old 10th December 2017, 01:03 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
OK so when I said Stalin killed more than twice as many as the Germans. ddt picked up on that I dropped a comma, or forgot to cross a t, to score a point that I used the phrase 'own citizens'


It doesn't change the thrust that just because Germans were 'baddies', it doesn't make Russia the 'good guys', either.
Hitler started a war of aggression that killed 50 million people. In Russia alone, as many as 14 million civiliians died from the invasion.

How in the world do you arrive at the conclusion that Stalin "killed twice as many", even if we grant the at best highly contentious assertions that the great famines of Ukraine and Central Asia were intentional? Can I see a breakdown of the numbers, please?

Quote:
(it could be argued that as Germany was occupying these countries, they were its own citizens, just as Stalin's victims were probably largely non-Russians).
I'd love to see you "argue" this, since this is obviously not a desperate attempt at covering up the fact that your assertions were mind-bogglingly ignorant. I assume you have international case law on hand?
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Old 10th December 2017, 01:47 PM   #84
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Here's an internet source re the Swedes harbouring escaped war criminals, from another angle:

Quote:
Sweden's Refusal to Prosecute Nazi War Criminals:
1986-2002

Efraim Zuroff



Toward the end of World War II, an unspecified number of Latvian and Estonian Nazi war criminals escaped to Sweden among a wave of Baltic refugees fleeing the advancing Soviet Army. Although the Swedish government established a special commission to investigate their wartime activities, no legal action was ever taken against any of these escaped Holocaust perpetrators.
To balance this out, here's a heartwarming story about our Swedish cousins, from THE TIMES 2 Oct 1944:

Quote:
HEADLINE: GERMANS FALL BACK IN FINLAND

FRONTIER TOWN IN FLAMES

from our Correspondent, Stockholm, Oct 2

Since noon to-day, a large part of the Finnish frontier town, Tornio has been in flames, apparently since the Germans set fire to the municipal secondary school, their last stronghold after the Finns pressed home a surprise attack, whIch they launched on Sunday morning.

According to observers in Haparanda, on the Swedish side of the frontier, a south-easterly gale made the fire spread and the chances of saving the wooden-built town are small. During the night, only intermittent rifle fire was heard, and this morning, the Germans were seen withdrawing from the school to the north. The attack cost the Finns forty casualties, including a captain, the first night.

When it was learnt in Haparanda that many wounded Finns were in danger of bleeding to death for lack of medical supplies, a Finn living in Sweden rowed across the frontier with a supply of dressings. Later, some 50 wounded Finns were sent to Haparanda by boat and given medical attention at a Swedish field hospital.
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Old 10th December 2017, 01:51 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Hitler started a war of aggression that killed 50 million people. In Russia alone, as many as 14 million civiliians died from the invasion.

How in the world do you arrive at the conclusion that Stalin "killed twice as many", even if we grant the at best highly contentious assertions that the great famines of Ukraine and Central Asia were intentional? Can I see a breakdown of the numbers, please?



I'd love to see you "argue" this, since this is obviously not a desperate attempt at covering up the fact that your assertions were mind-bogglingly ignorant. I assume you have international case law on hand?

It is just a figure of speech, based on the heuristic figures thrown about that the Germans 'killed 6 million', and Stalin 'killed 20 million'.

Do you disagree with this likely ratio?
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Old 10th December 2017, 02:08 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is just a figure of speech, based on the heuristic figures thrown about that the Germans 'killed 6 million', and Stalin 'killed 20 million'.

Do you disagree with this likely ratio?
Yes, I disagree. The notion that "Stalin killed 20 million" is based on Robert Conquest's cartoon villain caricature of Stalin and downright dishonest demographic calculations. It also depends on accepting that the Great Famines were deliberately engineered by Stalin (extremely unlikely; in fact plenty of aid was distributed) and that Stalin was solely or mainly responsible for the purges (also increasingly unlikely; the increasingly common view is that he was one cog in a much larger machinery of party radicalism and in-fighting).

If you only count deliberately targeted civilians for Hitler, you still end up with more than 6 million - closer to 11 or 12 million, counting homosexuals, Poles, other Slavs, et cetera. If you include broader war crimes resulting in mass death, well, the number just shoots away. Even if you counterfactually take Stalin to be directly responsible for pretty much everything that occurred while he was General Secretary you're not getting north of maybe 7 million.

There's not really any comparison. Stalin was a brutal, callous tyrant culpable in a long range of crimes, but he wasn't Hitler.
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Old 10th December 2017, 02:10 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Here's an internet source re the Swedes harbouring escaped war criminals, from another angle:



To balance this out, here's a heartwarming story about our Swedish cousins, from THE TIMES 2 Oct 1944:
"An unspecified number"? Zero? Five? A hundred thousand?
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Old 10th December 2017, 02:37 PM   #88
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It's official. As reported by THE TIMES 5 Oct 1943 - before the end of the war - and the quality of their reporters being second to none in sheer intricate front line intelligence. The reporters probably were intelligence agents as their bylines are anonymous.


Quote:

FINLAND'S DILEMMA

MOVES FOR A SEPARATE PEACE WITH RUSSIA

HESITATIONS OF THE GOVERNMENT

From Our Special Correspondent Lately in Finland

[snipped]

FINNISH HOPES

Despite a growing criticism of the Government's tendency to wait too long, the whole situation is moving towards the realization that the country, if it is to avoid disaster, must take the necessary steps. Finland always insisted she fought only for her own interest, not for Germany. For instance, she resolutely refused all German demands for participation in operations against Leningrad. Therefore Finland cannot be included, Finnish spokesmen maintain, in the Casablanca decision of unconditional surrender.
(My italics.)

So there we have it from an on-the-spot intelligence agent as of that date.

Any other version of history is pure revisionism and hindsight.
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Old 10th December 2017, 03:04 PM   #89
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Well, on WWII I'll say this. The Swedes I know are generally ashamed of remaining neutral during the war, which is IMO a far healthier attitude than talking up those who allied with the Nazis.
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Old 10th December 2017, 03:28 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Well, on WWII I'll say this. The Swedes I know are generally ashamed of remaining neutral during the war, which is IMO a far healthier attitude than talking up those who allied with the Nazis.
Talking up? No. Trying to strictly factual.
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Old 10th December 2017, 03:47 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Well, on WWII I'll say this. The Swedes I know are generally ashamed of remaining neutral during the war, which is IMO a far healthier attitude than talking up those who allied with the Nazis.
Apart from the general practicalities and the question of what Sweden really would have been able to contribute as a co-belligerent, there was indeed the issue that the combination of overt supporters of Nazism (including King Gustaf V, who wrote a personal thank-you letter to Hitler on the commencement of Operation Barbarossa) and rabid anti-Bolsheviks led to an essentially split opinion on which side to support.

But as I noted, there were only 50,000 poorly equipped reservists at the start of the war. Apart from buying time, trade with the Nazis was also a way of acquiring equipment for them and the many new conscriptees (I believe political momentum only really materialized with the occupation of Norway, though).

I'd say the prominence enjoyed by eugenics and racial biology in Sweden during much of the 20th century is a more relevant target for criticism than the neutrality policy during the war, where there are few points where one can definitely say that the government was in the wrong given the circumstances.
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Old 10th December 2017, 04:29 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is just a figure of speech, based on the heuristic figures thrown about that the Germans 'killed 6 million', and Stalin 'killed 20 million'.

Do you disagree with this likely ratio?
I have a problem with the figure for the Germans' killings. The number of Jews killed in the Holocaust was about six million. Are you then stating that no other people were killed at all? That seems impossible in view of German atrocities in the occupied territories, especially Poland and the western regions of the then USSR.
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Old 10th December 2017, 04:34 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's official. As reported by THE TIMES 5 Oct 1943 - before the end of the war - and the quality of their reporters being second to none in sheer intricate front line intelligence. The reporters probably were intelligence agents as their bylines are anonymous.


(My italics.)

So there we have it from an on-the-spot intelligence agent as of that date.

Any other version of history is pure revisionism and hindsight.
Which? Revisionism is one thing and hindsight is very different. Wartime newspaper reports are sometimes corrected by hindsight. They often contain lies, particularly articles written by intelligence agents.
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Old 10th December 2017, 05:00 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Which? Revisionism is one thing and hindsight is very different. Wartime newspaper reports are sometimes corrected by hindsight. They often contain lies, particularly articles written by intelligence agents.
Nowadays, sure. Then the journalism (in THE TIMES) really top notch. My quote came from a three-quarter page of a broadsheet - no photos - just great detail.

Try this for size, from THE INDEPENDENT, 17 April 2017:

Quote:
The Allied Powers were aware of the scale of the Jewish Holocaust two-and-a-half years earlier than is generally assumed, and had even prepared war crimes indictments against Adolf Hitler and his top Nazi commanders.

Newly accessed material from the United Nations – not seen for around 70 years – shows that as early as December 1942, the US, UK and Soviet governments were aware that at least two million Jews had been murdered and a further five million were at risk of being killed, and were preparing charges. Despite this, the Allied Powers did very little to try and rescue or provide sanctuary to those in mortal danger.
Note carefully the date.

Now compare and contrast it to a draft introductory paragraph of my own researched article:

Quote:
A few introductory notes: Germany started its Judenrein (‘Jew- Free’) extermination program in January 1941, initially with small mobile Einsatzkommando units, and by June 1941, there were mass killings, the first in Poland and then in Soviet Russia. By October 1942, the TIMES was reporting ‘the extermination of over 1.2m Jews’ with another news story in the TIMES in 1942 reporting a community of 30,000 Jews killed, including 12,000 children.

Reports (ibid) at the same time show repeated announcements by the Archbishop of Canterbury and Jewish elders from around the world about the plight that European Jews found themselves in. Thus, it was of common international knowledge, <snip>
Yes, I spotted the newspaper article in the TIMES dated Oct 1942, yet today's INDEPENDENT claims this information was only 'new' after seventy years of belief the revelation was two years later.*

I'll say these old quality journalists are superb if you want to follow ongoing situations, such as the Stalingrad seige. OK, there might be errors, but can't fault the 'first response' honesty, which vanishes bit by bit as the historians, politicians and spin doctors polish everything up to suit an agenda or 'script'.

*Imagine that! For 70 years we have been told 'no-one knew until 1944'.

This shows how sophisticated textbooks are, and less trustworthy than quality on-the-spot reporting.
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Old 10th December 2017, 05:14 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I have a problem with the figure for the Germans' killings. The number of Jews killed in the Holocaust was about six million. Are you then stating that no other people were killed at all? That seems impossible in view of German atrocities in the occupied territories, especially Poland and the western regions of the then USSR.
The assumption is 'of innocent civilians', rather than war casualties or natural disasters, such as famine.

As a caveat, the Russians and the Germans both had internment camps where many did starve to death / die of diseases as a result thereof, and they should be included in the figures.

TubbaBubba's assertion that 'Stalin didn't purge all these people personally', is absurd, as neither did Hitler.

It was certainly Stalin's regime and his paranoia about his comrades plotting to overthrow him that makes Stalin responsible for their deaths IMV.
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Old 10th December 2017, 05:46 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Talking up? No. Trying to strictly factual.
Oh, that ship sailed when you brought out that "Finland for 52,000 years" map.
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Old 10th December 2017, 06:13 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The assumption is 'of innocent civilians', rather than war casualties or natural disasters, such as famine.
Oh, pray tell, how did all those USSR citizens die if we're excluding famine?

Quote:
TubbaBubba's assertion that 'Stalin didn't purge all these people personally', is absurd, as neither did Hitler.

It was certainly Stalin's regime and his paranoia about his comrades plotting to overthrow him that makes Stalin responsible for their deaths IMV.
You have no clue what Soviet state atrocities actually looked like, do you? You think Stalin "purged" 20 million people?
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Old 10th December 2017, 06:54 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The assumption is 'of innocent civilians', rather than war casualties or natural disasters, such as famine.
We can discuss Stalin in a moment if you wish.

You have said that Hitler was responsible for a total of six million murders. But in the Holocaust he murdered six million Jews. Are you saying he murdered no other people?

So then you say he murdered six million innocent civilians in total. Are you then stating that many of the Jewish Holocaust victims were not innocent civilians? How many, and what were they?

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Old 11th December 2017, 12:40 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Yes, I disagree. The notion that "Stalin killed 20 million" is based on Robert Conquest's cartoon villain caricature of Stalin and downright dishonest demographic calculations. It also depends on accepting that the Great Famines were deliberately engineered by Stalin (extremely unlikely; in fact plenty of aid was distributed) and that Stalin was solely or mainly responsible for the purges (also increasingly unlikely; the increasingly common view is that he was one cog in a much larger machinery of party radicalism and in-fighting).

If you only count deliberately targeted civilians for Hitler, you still end up with more than 6 million - closer to 11 or 12 million, counting homosexuals, Poles, other Slavs, et cetera. If you include broader war crimes resulting in mass death, well, the number just shoots away. Even if you counterfactually take Stalin to be directly responsible for pretty much everything that occurred while he was General Secretary you're not getting north of maybe 7 million.

There's not really any comparison. Stalin was a brutal, callous tyrant culpable in a long range of crimes, but he wasn't Hitler.
It's quite telling that Vixen hasn't replied to this post.
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Old 12th December 2017, 04:29 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
It's quite telling that Vixen hasn't replied to this post.
Work got in the way. TBH I am not sure the numbers game is particularly relevant. Historians generally agree that Russian casualties outnumbered Hitler's ones (excluding fallen soliders).

Who is to judge whether Uncle Joe was better or worse than the raging lunatic form Austria?
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Old 12th December 2017, 04:43 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Work got in the way. TBH I am not sure the numbers game is particularly relevant. Historians generally agree that Russian casualties outnumbered Hitler's ones (excluding fallen soliders).
Do you have motorised goalposts or something ?

In yet another thread, instead of saying "oops I goofed/exaggerated/misunderstood" you dig the hole deeper and/or completely change the nature of your claim (only to have the revised version thoroughly debunked as well...).
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Old 12th December 2017, 04:44 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Work got in the way. TBH I am not sure the numbers game is particularly relevant. Historians generally agree that Russian casualties outnumbered Hitler's ones (excluding fallen soliders).

Who is to judge whether Uncle Joe was better or worse than the raging lunatic form Austria?
We will be more able to judge when you tell us how many people the lunatic from Austria caused to be murdered. If it was a total of six million, and if he murdered six million Jews, were there no other victims than the Jews murdered in the Holocaust? Or are you saying that fewer than six million Jews were murdered? Or are you saying that not all the Jews were "innocent civilians"? It's not clear what your position on Hitler's crimes in fact is, or how many crimes you attribute to him.
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Old 12th December 2017, 04:59 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Who is to judge whether Uncle Joe was better or worse than the raging lunatic form Austria?
Jews.
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Old 12th December 2017, 06:14 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Work got in the way. TBH I am not sure the numbers game is particularly relevant.
You started "the numbers game".

Quote:
Historians generally agree that Russian casualties outnumbered Hitler's ones (excluding fallen soliders).
Are you saying now that more Russian civillians died in WWII than did German civillians? That's not what you claimed before.

Quote:
Who is to judge whether Uncle Joe was better or worse than the raging lunatic form Austria?
As convenient as it would be to think, Hitler was not a "raging lunatic". Delusional, reprehensibly vile, paranoid and nihilistic, yes, but chillingly rational within those parameters.
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Old 12th December 2017, 07:35 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Are you saying now that more Russian civillians died in WWII than did German civillians? That's not what you claimed before.
Even if it's true, I'm not sure why Russian civilian victims of WWII are Stalin's fault any more than British victims are Churchill's fault.
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Old 12th December 2017, 07:37 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Even if it's true, I'm not sure why Russian civilian victims of WWII are Stalin's fault any more than British victims are Churchill's fault.
Me neither.
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Old 12th December 2017, 07:40 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Jesus *********** wept, I knew you weren't too well read about WWII, but this is atrociously wrong. There were relatively few Jews, Roma and Sinti in Germany - no more than perhaps 200,000 altogether. About three million of the Jews murdered in the Holocaust lived in Poland. About two million lived in the Soviet Union. About half a million in Hungary. The rest (Between 150,000 and 10,000 per following country) mainly lived in Czechoslovakia, the Netherlands, Romania, France, Greece, Yugoslavia, Austria, Belgium.
But, but, but... Vixen has researched this stuff. In the "Best way to lose faith" thread, she has repeatedly assured us that she has researched WW2 and in particular the Einsatzgruppen. In that thread, we've gone over roughly the same territory as here, and people have pointed out the falsehoods in her posts and given pointers to some basic material. Here are some relevant snippets of posts:

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I was referring to Einsatzgruppen and Einsatzkommando

You cannot dismiss this as, 'Oh it was just a bunch of people breaking the law'.

This was carried out by the state under Hitler's military dictatorship and as such was not against Third Reich law, just as being a Nazi was not.

This was not as appears from your post a case of the killing squads victims being 'targeted by the SS in their retaliation against Soviet partisans'.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There were no laws against it (see reference to the Einsatzgruppen above). As a military order, there was no democratic route (being a fascist dictatorship). Hitler ordered it, the masses obeyed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution


All of this was acting within Germany's laws at the time.

As I say, I researched the Einsatzkommando as to Germany's war strategy. I can't say I am familiar with Oster and Canaris, but I will look them up.
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
These gangs in general performed their killing outside the third reich, mostly in the territory of Poland and the USSR. So the issue of third reich law is not very important. They were murder gengs killing civilians in occupied lands.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How does that reconcile with >6million Germany citizens genocided.

It obviously does not.

This is because the laws of Third Reich Germany (or lack thereof) meant the millions (yes, MILLIONS) of Germans who actively participated in the genocide got off scot-free.

Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Not all the victims of the Holocaust were German. Most of the victims were Polish or Soviet citizens.

How many people do you think were actually involved? Not every Landser guarded a death camp or was assigned to the Einsatzgruppen.



How do you figure that millions of Germans participated in genocide?

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Their orders coming from the highest echelons of the Nazi state doesn't make them legal. They rounded up Jews and mass-murdered them. That was obviously against international law. Here's the The Hague Convention IV of 1907, the Convention respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land, Annex, art. 23:

That was the law of war, and they broke it. It doesn't matter one iota if the order came from Heydrich, Himmler or Hitler personally; the people who carried it out, carried out an illegal order and they knew it.
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
See my answer above. German law does not matter one iota. The vast majority of the Holocaust was carried out outside Germany's borders, in conquered territory. Mass murdering people in conquered territory was against the (unwritten) rules of war long before the The Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 put that in writing.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
And those persons who carried out those orders - an issue you keep evading - number tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands 'ordinary citizens'.

It became legal by common law practice.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That has to be euphemism of the week.

So Germany 'deported' millions of Jews and others to concentration camps outside of Germany, so this proves Jews in Germany were not eliminated in Germany and therefore no laws were broken within German jurisdiction.
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You seem to be totally ignorant of the Holocaust, or trying to twist my words.

Restricting the argument to the Jewish victims, only about 144,000 of the ca. 6 million Jews came from Germany itself, and ca. 49,000 from Austria which might arguably be called German territory at the time. The rest from all over Europe: Poland, the Soviet Union, Hungary, Romania, Italy, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, etc. Around 105,000 Dutch Jews were transported in cattle cars through Germany to Auschwitz and Sobibor in Poland. Around 3 million Jews in Poland were first holed up in ghettos and then transported to the Aktion Reinhard camps (Sobibor, Majdanek, Belzec, Treblinka) to be gassed there. The Jews in the Soviet Union were first and foremost gathered at execution places on the spot and mass-murdered there - you had done research on the Einsatzgruppen, hadn't you? On 1 December 1941, Karl Jäger, leader of Einsatzkommando 3, said in his report that Lithuania was judenfrei except for a couple of ghettos. Where do you think his EK killed those Lithuanian Jews?

The great majority of the Holocaust took place outside German borders and thus German law was totally irrelevant. It was a breach of international laws of war, specifically the The Hague Conventions.
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
And it was intentional that it be beyond greater germany. There is a reason that the extermination camps were largely located in occupied territories. There is a reason why the Nazi's tried to cover it up. There is a reason why the Death Marches happened.

So, a question for vixen. Are you suggesting that the Holocaust never happened?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I did do research, yes. I haven't had a chance to dig it out yet.

No, I don't get my knowledge from tv sitcoms and yes, I did take German at school (and was always in the top three in the subject) so do know all about their long words. I am only guessing it was 'Einsatzgruppen' until such time I refer back. Strangely, we were not taught that word.

'Only 144K' is a horrible way of putting it, as if that makes it better.
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
It doesn't show. The basic findings of that "research" should also be in your head and not in need of "digging out".


I don't remember ever encountering that word when reading Goethe or Heine or Thomas Mann. For a better understanding of the German mindset pre-Hitler, I recommend his brother Heinrich, though, specifically "Der Untertan".


That's all you have to say? Really?

You keep on harping on that the Holocaust was legal according to German law at the time. No it wasn't, but my main point here is that German law does not matter one iota for what the Nazis did in the occupied territories because there international laws about war applied. And 96-97% of the Holocaust took place in occupied territories.

I've made this argument already twice before, and you evaded a straight answer. This is the third time. When you evade for a third time a straight answer, I have no other option than to conclude that you're a Holocaust denier.

And yes, it's only 144K. That's a drop in the bucket compared to the ca. 3 million Polish Jews who were murdered. It's even small in comparison to the 105K Dutch Jews, when taken into account that the German general population was 7-8 times bigger than the Dutch. And, going out on a limb, if Hitler had restricted himself to murdering German Jews, and not invading other countries and murdering Jews and other "undesirables" there, he would have gotten away with it. Even today murderous regimes get away with genocide; see East Timor under Indonesian rule, or Darfur, or Rwanda.
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Sorry for the confusion. No, i'm not saying that. But Vixen has been arguing that very point, that German law permitted the Endlösung (*). Of course, despite all her careful "research", she has not provided a shred of evidence. I'm beginning to suspect her research took place on Stormfront and CODOH.

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
First, imperialist Germans despised Hitler, second, the killing squads were not exclusively German, thirdly, the wehrmacht was not exclusively german, fourthly, German law did not matter a whit since most of the atrocities were committed on foreign soil and thus fall under international law, fifthly, ignoring fourthly, it was illegal under German law anyway.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Therefore no attempt is being made to minimise German guilt for the Shoah. Oh, wait a minute. Here's somebody saying the Shoah was lawful. That's not merely minimising, but completely absolving the perpetrators of guilt. So they followed the law but didn't take responsibility. That doesn't sound too terrible, compared to the reality of the situation. And it was the "entire German people" so even the "responsibility" is spread very thin. And it was "craziness", so an insanity plea in mitigation is in order too.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Put it this way: there were no laws against it, aside from international treaties.

We are talking about the German masses, not one individual serial killer.
So, summarizing, Vixen has made two claims arising out of her research:
(1) All those 6 Jews that were murdered in the Holocaust were German citizens;
(2) It was legal for Nazi Germany to murder them.

I must wholeheartedly agree with Craig B as quoted above that these claims only can serve as apologetics for the Nazi regime. I can only surmise that Vixen's research was carried out in the Institute of Historical Review under supervision of Willis Carto, in the research line "novel avenues to rehabilitate Hitler", or something like that.

Anybody who has even cursorily read about WW2 and the Holocaust - let alone "researched" it - knows that those two statements are utter falsehoods.

I can think of one other explanation for Vixen's posts in that in this thread, but the MA forbids me from writing it. The_Don's post above gives a hint.
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Old 12th December 2017, 07:48 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
OK so when I said Stalin killed more than twice as many as the Germans. ddt picked up on that I dropped a comma, or forgot to cross a t, to score a point that I used the phrase 'own citizens'
You very consciously wrote "own citizens", that's not forgetting to cross a t. If you had just meant "people", the very logical thing would have been to just write "people".
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
(it could be argued that as Germany was occupying these countries, they were its own citizens,
Nobody in their right mind would want to argue that. They were not entitled to German nationality or German passports.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
just as Stalin's victims were probably largely non-Russians).
Stalin did not act as the leader of Russia, alias the RSFSR, but as the leader of the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics, which included the Socialist Soviet Republic Ukraine, the SSR Georgia, the SSR Armenia, the SSR Azerbaijan, etc. (Nearly) all Stalin's victims were citizens of the USSR.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It doesn't change the thrust that just because Germans were 'baddies', it doesn't make Russia the 'good guys', either.
You're the one here who started comparing Hitler to Stalin. Nobody else was interested in doing so until you started that.
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Old 12th December 2017, 07:53 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So there we have it from an on-the-spot intelligence agent as of that date.

Any other version of history is pure revisionism and hindsight.
Finland may have insisted it fought for her own interest, but that does not contradict that it collaborated with Nazi Germany and that significant parts of its army carried out joint operations with Nazi Germany.
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Old 12th December 2017, 08:01 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The assumption is 'of innocent civilians', rather than war casualties or natural disasters, such as famine.
So you keep insisting that the only "innocent civilians" that were murdered by the Nazis were approx. 6 million Jews?

Care to elaborate on the girl pictured below?

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Old 12th December 2017, 08:12 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Finland may have insisted it fought for her own interest, but that does not contradict that it collaborated with Nazi Germany and that significant parts of its army carried out joint operations with Nazi Germany.
It is a little embarrassing to have fought alongside the Nazis which is why it's so important to highlight:
  • That Finland was operating in its own self interest and wasn't an Axis power
  • The Stalin was so much worse than Hitler so that even if they were fighting alongside the Nazis, they were fighting the really bad guys

IMO if hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians died of starvation in Leningrad/St Petersburg during the siege and Finland helped to enforce that siege then some of that blood is on Finnish hands.
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Old 12th December 2017, 08:36 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
But, but, but... Vixen has researched this stuff. In the "Best way to lose faith" thread, she has repeatedly assured us that she has researched WW2 and in particular the Einsatzgruppen. In that thread, we've gone over roughly the same territory as here, and people have pointed out the falsehoods in her posts and given pointers to some basic material. Here are some relevant snippets of posts:


So, summarizing, Vixen has made two claims arising out of her research:
(1) All those 6 Jews that were murdered in the Holocaust were German citizens;
(2) It was legal for Nazi Germany to murder them.

Anybody who has even cursorily read about WW2 and the Holocaust - let alone "researched" it - knows that those two statements are utter falsehoods.

I can think of one other explanation for Vixen's posts in that in this thread, but the MA forbids me from writing it. The_Don's post above gives a hint.
... Wow.


Aside: Hitler had a "Military Dictatorship"? Who knew!

Quote:
I must wholeheartedly agree with Craig B as quoted above that these claims only can serve as apologetics for the Nazi regime. I can only surmise that Vixen's research was carried out in the Institute of Historical Review under supervision of Willis Carto, in the research line "novel avenues to rehabilitate Hitler", or something like that.
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Old 12th December 2017, 08:42 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IMO if hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians died of starvation in Leningrad/St Petersburg during the siege
Make that a million and a half.

Originally Posted by The Don View Post
and Finland helped to enforce that siege then some of that blood is on Finnish hands.
Which they did, see the Finnish-German-Italian flotilla that was active on Lake Ladoga. The lake was the only supply route for the Soviets to Leningrad.
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Old 12th December 2017, 09:06 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Make that a million and a half.


Which they did, see the Finnish-German-Italian flotilla that was active on Lake Ladoga. The lake was the only supply route for the Soviets to Leningrad.
Another item of Finnish German cooperation mentioned by wiki
Finnish intelligence had broken some of the Soviet military codes and read their low-level communications. This was particularly helpful for Hitler
After ice halted the naval operations on Ladoga
For the next three years, the Finns did little to contribute to the battle for Leningrad, maintaining their lines.
These lines of course both enforced the blockade in the N sector of the siege lines, and relieved the Germans of the necessity to cover that sector, but on the other hand the Finns abstained from systematic artillery or air bombardment of the city, despite German requests.
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Old 12th December 2017, 10:20 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This reminds me of the poster/s who insist that Finland is 'East Euopean' and was once under the heel of Stalin. It is so frustrating to keep correcting people.
Can you point out where anyone as done so? That's only in your feverish imagination.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The so-called Division VI joint German-Finnish/other regiment was commanded by the Germans.
(1) The Finnish 6th division was a Finnish army unit, not "joint German-Finnish/other"
(2) Divisions are numbered with Arabic numerals, armies with Roman numerals.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Mannerheim's Finnish army was separate and NOT. an AXIS arny (The Axis comprised Italy, Germany and Japan).
No, the Axis only comprised of Germany and Italy. When Japan joined, it was called the Tripartite Pact. And nobody has claimed that Finland was part of the Axis. But the Finnish 6th division was under German command, to achieve German war aims - viz. controlling the Murmansk railroad - just like Italian, Hungarian and Romanian armies fought around Stalingrad.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
1 General Josef Reinhardt, Imperial Warrior Leader, he re-inaugaurated the Kiffhäuser Monument in 1933 with Hitler, 500 flags and Nazi German Reich Warriors(Note: not to be confused with Reinhard Himmler who gave his name to the Aktion Reinhard death camp program)
Do you take yourself even serious? My God. Make that Reinhard Heydrich.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
5 East Prussia was est. 1871. It became Germany as part of the Weimar Republic. The northern part is now part of Lithuania and the southern part, Poland.
No, the northern part is the Kaliningrad Oblast in Russia. The part in Lithuania is the Memel area and has never been regarded as East Prussia proper.

And no, East Prussia was not established in 1871. It was the last remnant of the state of the Teutonic Knights. The last grandmaster, Albrecht of Hohenzollern, converted to Lutheranism in, IIRC, 1618 and, with permission of his suzerain, the king of Poland, called himself duke of Prussia. He was a cousin of the elector of Brandenburg, and after his death, the duchy came in the hands of the elector. That's the beginning of the ascent of Brandenburg-Prussia as a great power.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
6Königsberg was the capital of East Prussia, now called Kaliningrad (1946). Famous for the four-day Battle of Königsberg.
More famous, IMHO, for Euler's "Bridges of Königsberg" problem which is the beginning of graph theory.

But really, when did that battle take place and when was the visit?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
7 Tannenberg was the scene of the Battle of Grunwald, as it was then known.
It was the scene of two battles, one in 1410 where the Teutonic Knights were crushed by the Poles and one in August 1914 where Hindenburg annihilated a whole Russian army.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
9 Named after the Kyffhäuser mountain range on the border of Thuringia and Saxony-Anhalt. The mythological Emperor Frederick von Hohenstaufen, known popularly as Barbarossa (“the Red-Bearded”) is said to be buried here. Operation Barbarossa was Hitler’s Code Name for the Artic War Excursions, 1941. Die Kiffhäuser Kaisersage Thurm ruins, the blacksmith The Blacksmith from Jutebok by Ludwig Bechstein 1847 is a well-known German fairytale, in which the Emperor Frederick is in the Cave of Kiffhäuser . In the poem Germania – The Winter by Heinrich Heine, 1844 the Kiffhäuser are again mentioned – “Yes, the whole world will be German! I thought of this mission, the universal domination of Germany, when I was walking with my dreams under the trees forever green my homeland – This is my patriotism.”
You forgot the most important part of the Kyffhäuser myth in the 19th Century, viz., that one day, Barbarossa will rise again and make Germany great again.

Oh, and he's not buried there. He drowned in a river while on Crusade, near the current Turkish/Syrian border, still en route to the Holy Land. The myth says his ghost lives there.

That was just off the top of my head. Some quality in the research in your footnotes.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So, yes, there is a clear record of Finnish generals being feted by Nazi Germany.
As well as the Finnish army actively collaborating with the Nazi war effort.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, the Finnish fascists helped deport eight/nine Jewish refuges and this is a huge blot on the country's history.
You're really trying too hard here.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
However, Finland was NOT a part of the Axis.
Which nobody has said.
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Old 12th December 2017, 12:53 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Do you have motorised goalposts or something ?

In yet another thread, instead of saying "oops I goofed/exaggerated/misunderstood" you dig the hole deeper and/or completely change the nature of your claim (only to have the revised version thoroughly debunked as well...).
Sorry, can you elaborate exactly what you are talking about and how it relates to the topic?
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Old 12th December 2017, 12:55 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
We will be more able to judge when you tell us how many people the lunatic from Austria caused to be murdered. If it was a total of six million, and if he murdered six million Jews, were there no other victims than the Jews murdered in the Holocaust? Or are you saying that fewer than six million Jews were murdered? Or are you saying that not all the Jews were "innocent civilians"? It's not clear what your position on Hitler's crimes in fact is, or how many crimes you attribute to him.
It's not me who's hung up on the numbers game. You need to ask TubbaBubba as he is the one who has all the intricate statistics.
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Old 12th December 2017, 12:57 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
You started "the numbers game".


Are you saying now that more Russian civillians died in WWII than did German civillians? That's not what you claimed before.



As convenient as it would be to think, Hitler was not a "raging lunatic". Delusional, reprehensibly vile, paranoid and nihilistic, yes, but chillingly rational within those parameters.
It's my understanding that Stalin murdered more than twice as many as Nazi Germany.

You vehemently disagree, but you haven't provided any figures or citation.
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Old 12th December 2017, 12:58 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Even if it's true, I'm not sure why Russian civilian victims of WWII are Stalin's fault any more than British victims are Churchill's fault.
I am not aware Great Britain committed any WWII war crimes.

Care to be more specific?
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Old 12th December 2017, 01:03 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
But, but, but... Vixen has researched this stuff. In the "Best way to lose faith" thread, she has repeatedly assured us that she has researched WW2 and in particular the Einsatzgruppen. In that thread, we've gone over roughly the same territory as here, and people have pointed out the falsehoods in her posts and given pointers to some basic material. Here are some relevant snippets of posts:







































So, summarizing, Vixen has made two claims arising out of her research:
(1) All those 6 Jews that were murdered in the Holocaust were German citizens;
(2) It was legal for Nazi Germany to murder them.

I must wholeheartedly agree with Craig B as quoted above that these claims only can serve as apologetics for the Nazi regime. I can only surmise that Vixen's research was carried out in the Institute of Historical Review under supervision of Willis Carto, in the research line "novel avenues to rehabilitate Hitler", or something like that.

Anybody who has even cursorily read about WW2 and the Holocaust - let alone "researched" it - knows that those two statements are utter falsehoods.

I can think of one other explanation for Vixen's posts in that in this thread, but the MA forbids me from writing it. The_Don's post above gives a hint.
Please explain what you mean by this.
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