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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Finland history

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Old 12th December 2017, 01:23 PM   #121
Vixen
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Can you point out where anyone as done so? That's only in your feverish imagination.


(1) The Finnish 6th division was a Finnish army unit, not "joint German-Finnish/other"
(2) Divisions are numbered with Arabic numerals, armies with Roman numerals.

No, the Axis only comprised of Germany and Italy. When Japan joined, it was called the Tripartite Pact. And nobody has claimed that Finland was part of the Axis. But the Finnish 6th division was under German command, to achieve German war aims - viz. controlling the Murmansk railroad - just like Italian, Hungarian and Romanian armies fought around Stalingrad.


Do you take yourself even serious? My God. Make that Reinhard Heydrich.


No, the northern part is the Kaliningrad Oblast in Russia. The part in Lithuania is the Memel area and has never been regarded as East Prussia proper.

And no, East Prussia was not established in 1871. It was the last remnant of the state of the Teutonic Knights. The last grandmaster, Albrecht of Hohenzollern, converted to Lutheranism in, IIRC, 1618 and, with permission of his suzerain, the king of Poland, called himself duke of Prussia. He was a cousin of the elector of Brandenburg, and after his death, the duchy came in the hands of the elector. That's the beginning of the ascent of Brandenburg-Prussia as a great power.


More famous, IMHO, for Euler's "Bridges of Königsberg" problem which is the beginning of graph theory.

But really, when did that battle take place and when was the visit?


It was the scene of two battles, one in 1410 where the Teutonic Knights were crushed by the Poles and one in August 1914 where Hindenburg annihilated a whole Russian army.


You forgot the most important part of the Kyffhäuser myth in the 19th Century, viz., that one day, Barbarossa will rise again and make Germany great again.

Oh, and he's not buried there. He drowned in a river while on Crusade, near the current Turkish/Syrian border, still en route to the Holy Land. The myth says his ghost lives there.

That was just off the top of my head. Some quality in the research in your footnotes.


As well as the Finnish army actively collaborating with the Nazi war effort.

You're really trying too hard here.

Which nobody has said.
A note is a note. It doesn't profess to be anything other than a few lines, to help elucidate the facts behind the newspaper article.

Division 6 (SS-Gebirgsbrigade)was part of the German Army, under German Command. This was a Nazi division that pro-German Finns were attracted to.

Germany had control of the Petsamo corridor and all along the North East Frontier.

A Führer order was given, which said "…..As for the SS-units, there is to be formed a new SS-Gebirgsbrigade formed by volunteering Norwegians and Finns. An Austrian SS-regiment is to be attached, and the remaining units are to be deployed from "Kampfgruppe Nord".

Hitler set up Mufti brigades made up of Muslims elsewhere, and these too were under German command.

When Norway capitulated in June 1940, there were still some armed Norwegian forces intact: two Infantry Battalions and one Motorised Artillery Battery which guarded the Norwegian/Soviet-Russian and Finnish border in East-Finnmark. These units were led by Colonel Wilhelm Faye.

As Hitler did not want to deploy ordinary Heer units to replace the Norwegians, the choice was SS-Totenkopf-Standarte 9 led by SS-Obersturmbannführer Ernst Deutsch. However, the first unit to arrive in Kirkenes, was called "SS Batallion Reitz", named after their commander SS-Obersturmbannführer Wilhelm Reitz.

During the spring 1941, two new Standarten (Regiments) arrived: the 6th and 7th. After a short time, the 6th SS, with large elements from the 9th SS, moved into positions at Salla in Northern-Finland.

A unit by Finnish volunteers was never formed in this case, but a Norwegian one soon came true: the "Freiwilligen-Schikompanie "Norwegen", later Frw-Skibatallion "Norwegen" (Norwegian: "Skijegerbataljonen").
It was formed in February 1941 in Norway as "SS-Kampfgruppe Nord" by "Stab des Befehlshaber der Waffen-SS in Norwegen".
From September 1941 the unit was officially designated "SS-Division Nord".

In January it was converted to a "SS-Gebirgs-Division", and new units began forming in Germany for the division. These arrived in September 1942, and the division was redesigned "SS-Gebirgs-Division Nord".

In October it got a divisional number, and was finally redesignated "6. SS-Gebirgs-Division Nord".

Lineage
SS-Kampfgruppe Nord (Feb 1941 - Sep 1941)
SS-Division Nord (Sep 1941 - Sep 1942)
SS-Gebirgs-Division Nord (Sep 1942 - Oct 1943)
6. SS-Gebirgs-Division Nord (Oct 1943 - May 1945)


Clear now?

So GERMAN, not FINNISH.
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Old 12th December 2017, 01:26 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Please do not ascribe base motives to me or put words in my mouth. You keep claiming that Hitler's victims were mostly outside of Germany. You are the apologists.
I really resent that you call me a Nazi apologist. I suggest that you take those words back and apologize.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As for T4, which you mention, above; from my notes, again:

[Conti]: Not a Doctor you would want a visit from! Euthanasia program: In September 1939, the killing operation was expanded to include adults. Hitler first appointed Leonardo Conti, state secretary for health in the Reich Ministry of Interior, to direct adult euthanasia, telling him in the presence of Hans Heinrich Lammers and Martin Bormann "that he considered it appropriate that life unfit for living of severely insane patients should be ended by intervention that would result in death." Conti accepted the assignment, but he did not remain in charge long; within a few weeks, Hitler replaced him, turning once again to Brandt and Bouhler as his plenipotentiaries, so that Brack and the KdF could administer adult euthanasia alongside that for children. To avoid implicating the Chancellery, the staff administering the euthanasia killings moved from the KdF into a confiscated Jewish villa at Tiergarten Street number 4 and euthanasia was thus soon known as Operation T4, or simply as T4.

The method used to kill the children could not be used to kill the far larger number of adults. To accomplish its task, T4 therefore constructed killing centers, including gas chambers and crematoria, and developed a killing technique to select, transport, and "process" the victims. And always the killers robbed the corpses of their victims, taking gold teeth and bridge work to enrich the state as well as internal organs to enrich "scientific research." For this purpose, T4 established six killing centers – Brandenburg, Grafeneck, Hartheim, Sonnenstein, Bernburg, and Hadamar – but only four were ever operational at the same time. To hide the killings, T4 used subterfuge to fool the relatives; the killing centers camouflaged as hospitals wrote letters of condolence and issued fraudulent death certificates.
{Source now unknown}
And? What's your point? That those killing centers were in Germany? Duh, Aktion T4 was indeed about murdering German disabled people (i.e. within the borders of the Reich). That is not to say that elsewhere, disabled people were not murdered. For instance, in Fort VII in Poznan:
Quote:
Owinska is a town situated about 10 km north of Poznan. The home located there was the oldest established hospital for the mentally sick people in the Generalgouvernement, . The German army occupied Owinska in mid-September 1939, when the mental home was taken over by the Gau-Selbstverwaltung of Poznan and a Nazi commissioner appointed.

The new head demanded a list of all patients and prohibited the discharge of anyone from the hospital. The staff was told that the home would be closed and all patients transferred to other hospitals.

In fact, SS Sonderkommando Lange was ordered to Owinska for the purpose of exterminating all patients. In the second half of October 1939, the first patients were collected by military trucks, under surveillance of SS men. 1-3 trucks left the home every day.

[...]

Each incoming truck at Fort VII held about 25 persons. After their arrival they were taken to a gas chamber which was installed in a bunker in the courtyard of Fort VII. The closed door of the chamber was sealed with clay. The victims had to remain in the gas chamber while the SS installed gas cylinders with (probably) carbon monoxide besides the entrance.
And, as mentioned, this was about murdering all disabled.
Upthread, you seemed to claim that the Nazis only mass-murdered Jews. Do you still stand by that? Straight answer, yes or no.
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Old 12th December 2017, 01:33 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Please explain what you mean by this.
Do you have reading problems or comprehension problems?

As I said, writing that explanation in a post would be against the MA and would get me an infraction.

And must I construe your silence on the rest of my post that you have indeed been affiliated with the IHR?
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Old 12th December 2017, 01:38 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's not me who's hung up on the numbers game. You need to ask TubbaBubba as he is the one who has all the intricate statistics.
You are the only one who can tell me the answer to the question I asked, which is about your assessment of the level of Hitler's criminality.
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Old 12th December 2017, 01:45 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A note is a note. It doesn't profess to be anything other than a few lines, to help elucidate the facts behind the newspaper article.
Then it better also elucidate. When the information in it is false or misses essential parts it does not do that.

Moreover, your notes show how shoddy your research is.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Division 6 (SS-Gebirgsbrigade)was part of the German Army, under German Command. This was a Nazi division that pro-German Finns were attracted to.
You're fooling no-one with your sidestep onto a German SS division. I'm talking about the Finnish 3rd division which was part of the Finnish army and took part in Operation Arctic Fox:
Quote:
The 3rd division was the main component of the Finnish III Corps. During the war, the division fought mostly in the Ukhta and Kestenga area, when it participated in Operation Arctic Fox. When the Soviet main attack began in 1944 the division was transferred to the Karelian Isthmus.
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Old 12th December 2017, 01:46 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's not me who's hung up on the numbers game. You need to ask TubbaBubba as he is the one who has all the intricate statistics.
You're the one who started the numbers game. You claim that the Nazis murdered 6 million "innocent civilians". Care to elaborate?
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Old 12th December 2017, 01:49 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It is a little embarrassing to have fought alongside the Nazis which is why it's so important to highlight:
  • That Finland was operating in its own self interest and wasn't an Axis power
  • The Stalin was so much worse than Hitler so that even if they were fighting alongside the Nazis, they were fighting the really bad guys

IMO if hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians died of starvation in Leningrad/St Petersburg during the siege and Finland helped to enforce that siege then some of that blood is on Finnish hands.
First Finland fought against the USSR - declared war on it - with the aim of winning back Karelian land conceded in the Winter War. Germany wanted to attack Leningrad from the North (Moscow in the Middle and Stalingrad in the South) in a three-pronged attempt to invade USSR, ethnically cleanse it, and move in Germans.

The Finnish generals were close allies with German allies, ever since WWI and the Bolshevik rising in 1917, when Germany helped the 'White Guard' crush the 'Reds'.

The Germans called in this debt by using Finland to approach Leningrad via its borders at Vyberg (Viipuri).

In the TIMES newspaper, Thursday, May 1, 1941, there appears a strange article. It is, “from our Diplomatic Correspondent”. The headline reads “GERMAN TROOPS IN FINLAND”, with the sub-header, “TANK DIVISION’S ARRIVAL” and a sub-subheader “A MOSCOW REPORT”. The story begins,

Quote:
“Two puzzling items of news have come out of the Soviet Union. PRAVDA (second only to IZVESTIA in its direct authority from the Soviet Government) announced that a German mechanized division had just arrived in Finland; and Mikoyan, the Commissar for Foreign Trade, announced […] that no war supplies - munitions, aircraft parts, machine tools for making munitions, and explosives in any form, or poisons – would be allowed to pass through the Soviet Union in future.”
Quote:
“According to reliable sources, four German transports arrived on April 26 at the Finnish port of Åbo (Turku). About 12,000 troops, fully equipped and with tanks and artillery landed there and began to move off to Tampere on April 28.
USSR were in a panic, as an attack via Finland (an 800- mile border) was what they feared most from Germany.

Finland was heavily dependent on the German 'bread basket' region for import of grain.

Whilst it had the support of Scandinavian countries in the Winter War, the occupied Danes and occupied Norway were thus, heavily ambivalent about Finland's alliance with Germany.

Britain being a foe of Germany also didn't like it. It declared war on Finland and made it clear that all those who had volunteered to help Finland in the Winter War, faced charges of treason if they fought in the Continuation War (as it was called).

The fact is, after the disasterous German kettling of Leningrad (and they were 100% German), Finland then found itself at WAR with the Germans in the Lappland War, when the defeated Germans rampaged through Arctic Finland burning bridges (literally) massacring and raping villagers, and scorching the earth as they went.

Hitler's Operation Barbarossa was Top Secret, with only nine copies circulated to trusted generals. D-day attack was to be 22 June 1941.

Yes, some of the Finnish generals should, arguably, have faced war crime tribunals (for example, Talvela, who laid a wreath for 'fallen German soldiers' around about the same time eight Finnish Jews were deported to German-run concentration camps).

Even Mannerheim lived in fear, moving from one country to another and dying in Switzerland (IIRC) having to watch his back in the backlash after the war.
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Old 12th December 2017, 01:57 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You're the one who started the numbers game. You claim that the Nazis murdered 6 million "innocent civilians". Care to elaborate?
I am just quoting the populist figure cited for the number killed in German-run concentration camps, or destroyed by the stormtrooper units.
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Old 12th December 2017, 02:00 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's my understanding that Stalin murdered more than twice as many as Nazi Germany.

You vehemently disagree, but you haven't provided any figures or citation.
Give me a while to dig up citations. I take it for granted that you will concede the point once I have done so.
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Old 12th December 2017, 02:07 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am just quoting the populist figure cited for the number killed in German-run concentration camps, or destroyed by the stormtrooper units.
Really? Storm troopers? That's the SA. They had no role of any significance after the Night of the Long Knives. Which ones do you mean?

And which groups would that be? The number of 6 million is the same as the 6 million Jews that were mass-murdered by the Nazis.
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Old 12th December 2017, 02:08 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Then it better also elucidate. When the information in it is false or misses essential parts it does not do that.

Moreover, your notes show how shoddy your research is.


You're fooling no-one with your sidestep onto a German SS division. I'm talking about the Finnish 3rd division which was part of the Finnish army and took part in Operation Arctic Fox:
It combined forces in that instance to stave off the USSR but it remained under the command of the Finnish Army.

This is important to note, because unlike in Sweden and Norway, there was no Nazi party of any significance. There was a fairly popular Fascist Group (Isänmaallinen kansanliike - People's Fatherland Movement- the IKL) which was more to do with being Anti-Communist and had nothing at all to do with a dream of a 'Greater Germany'.
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Old 12th December 2017, 02:12 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Really? Storm troopers? That's the SA. They had no role of any significance after the Night of the Long Knives. Which ones do you mean?

And which groups would that be? The number of 6 million is the same as the 6 million Jews that were mass-murdered by the Nazis.
Officers serving in the Einsatzgruppen and Concentration Camps
Concentration Camps 57
(includes officers serving in the Einsatzgruppen or Concentration Camps either prior to or after service in this unit) 1941 - 1943
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Old 12th December 2017, 02:27 PM   #133
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On the Famines, I link to this review of "The Years of Hunger": https://eh.net/book_reviews/the-year...ure-1931-1933/ It sums up the salient points:

Quote:
The final chapter examines the 1931-1933 famine in comparison to the two most noted recent famines in Russian history, those of 1891 and 1918-1922. The authors describe how these earlier famines resulted from natural disaster and (in 1918-21) the difficulties the Bolshevik government had in moving food from villages to towns through requisitions. They then analyze the 1931-1933 crisis in three categories: the urban food crisis of 1928-1933; the famine in Kazakhstan; and the rural famine of 1932-1933. They discuss different estimates of mortality, questioning the highest estimates but acknowledging the uncertainties in the population data. They estimate that mortality from the famine was in the range of four to six million deaths.

...

With its extensive use and intensive examination of archival and published sources on high-level policy discussion and decisions in this crisis, including the formerly secret records of the Politburo (the special files or osobie papki) and the now published correspondence of Stalin with some of his top lieutenants like Kaganovich and Molotov, this study decisively refutes intentionalist explanations of the 1931-1933 famine. None of these sources contain any evidence indicating that Stalin or his officials intended or wanted to create a genocidal famine to suppress Ukrainian nationalism or any other such objective. The decisions that these officials made, such as the impositions and then reductions of procurement quotas, or the lowering of rations for certain sectors of the population, represented short term, desperate, and often mistaken responses to the developing emergencies of these years, and not components of an overarching destructive intent. Even the underlying fact of the overly rapid industrialization program and the disruptions it caused reflected not destructive but constructive aims, even if the implementation of these plans by ill-educated fanatics in various state agencies had disastrous consequences. This study, therefore, documents that great Soviet famine of 1931-1933 was a complex economic event first of all, rooted in environmental conditions as well as in Soviet policies.
The review linked also contains some critiques of the work that is worth reading, but none that affects the point here: While the USSR government, and Stalin personally, bear responsibliity for the policies that exacerbated the famine and the confused repsonses, it is absolutely not fair to characterize the deaths as "murder" in the same vein as the Holocaust. I would not say that this is an absolute consensus view; the idea that Stalin wanted to destroy Ukrainian nationalism as per the late Robert Conquest lingers, but there is simply no evidence for it.

Regarding the Great Purge, I will just be lazy and cite Conquest's "The Great Terror", which concludes about 1-2 million deaths. The purges also need to be contextualized as they were not exactly the massive Stalin-spawned conspiracy Conquest imagines, nor centrally coordinated, nor directed toward any particular policy goal. This is much more contentious though and not a debate there is really room for here. Stalin certainly bears much responsibility - however one chooses to view it, he certainly exploited the conditions of the purge for his own gain, and played an important role in creating those conditions.

There were various other crimes commited by the USSR, but as far as numbers go, none measure up to the famines or to the Purges.

For the numbers on Nazi Germany, I guess it's simplest to cite Evans' Third Reich trilogy. In addition to the 5.5-6 million Jewish victims of the Holocaust, three million ethnic Poles were killed as part of Generalplan Ost, which sought to exterminate much of the Slav population. In addition to the Poles, millions of Ukrainians, Soviet PoW:s, Belarusians, and Serbs were killed as part of this extermination policy. Adding to that the various misc. persecuted groups (Romani, Sinti, Homosexuals, Freemasons...) we end up with a number between 11 million (conservative, excluding summary execution of POW:s for instance), and it goes over 15 million, depending on estimates and who we choose to include.


There.

I awate your graceful concession.
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Old 12th December 2017, 02:30 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Really? Storm troopers? That's the SA.
Not even that. "Stormtroopers", a mistranslation of "Sturmtruppen" (Assault Troops; Sturm is short for "Sturmangriff", "assault"), were elite "shock troops" (another mistranslation; "Stosstruppen" meaning "shoving" or "thrusting" troops) in WWI.

I forgive anyone for indulging in this misnomer (using the word "Stormtrooper" for the SA) though, it's so widespread.
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Old 12th December 2017, 02:32 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Britain being a foe of Germany also didn't like it. It declared war on Finland and made it clear that all those who had volunteered to help Finland in the Winter War, faced charges of treason if they fought in the Continuation War (as it was called).
Duh, at that moment the USSR was an ally of Britain, and the only one in the European theater.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The fact is, after the disasterous German kettling of Leningrad (and they were 100% German),
You like contemporary newspaper reports? Here's the Manchester Guardian of 8 September 1941:
Quote:
One of the most important known features of the operations against Leningrad to-day is the move by the Finns, who had been stationary since July just beyond the 1939 frontier north-east of Lake Ladoga, where they had recaptured the ceded territory, and had started a forked advance into Russian Karelia, one prong directed eastwards towards Petrozavodsk and the southern part of the Murmansk railway and the other prong pointing south-east towards Olonets and the River Svir, through which runs the Baltic-White Sea Canal connecting Lakes Ladoga and Onega.
So yes, Finnish military actions did contribute to the siege of Leningrad, and specifically tried to take away the last supply route, over Lake Ladoga. Moreover, this puts to rest your other lie that Finnish troops never advanced beyond the 1939 borders.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Finland then found itself at WAR with the Germans in the Lappland War, when the defeated Germans rampaged through Arctic Finland burning bridges (literally) massacring and raping villagers, and scorching the earth as they went.
You mean, just like the Italians, the Romanians and Bulgarians after they switched sides? Cry me a river.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Hitler's Operation Barbarossa was Top Secret, with only nine copies circulated to trusted generals. D-day attack was to be 22 June 1942.
Cough cough.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Kilpapurjehdus:
Quote:
Operation Kilpapurjehdus ("Regatta") was the covername for the militarization of the Åland islands. The operation took place on June 22, 1941, and in this way, Finland strived to prevent Soviet landings in the area.

The Åland islands had been demilitarized since 1921, through a League of Nations decree, which outlawed any military personnel or material on the islands. After the end of the Winter War, the Soviet Union controlled both the Hanko Peninsula and Estonia and the Finnish leadership feared that the Soviets were planning a landing in the demilitarized area. The Finnish militarization plan was ready by April and they started to move troops towards the coast between Turku and Pori according to the plan.
It was purely coincidental that this operation took place on the same day as Barbarossa.
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Old 12th December 2017, 02:34 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am not aware Great Britain committed any WWII war crimes.

Care to be more specific?
WTF? You are unaware of Great Britain's copious war crimes? Really?
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Old 12th December 2017, 02:35 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
So you keep insisting that the only "innocent civilians" that were murdered by the Nazis were approx. 6 million Jews?

Care to elaborate on the girl pictured below?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._steinbach.jpg
Vixen, I'm awaiting an answer.
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Old 12th December 2017, 02:50 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Officers serving in the Einsatzgruppen and Concentration Camps
Concentration Camps 57
(includes officers serving in the Einsatzgruppen or Concentration Camps either prior to or after service in this unit) 1941 - 1943
And which groups did they target? First I'd like a complete answer to my questions.
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Old 12th December 2017, 02:52 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It combined forces in that instance to stave off the USSR but it remained under the command of the Finnish Army.
It was part of an operation to capture the Murmansk Railroad. As did the Finnish 6th Division:
Quote:
The 6th Division was attached to the German XXXVI Corps in Northern Finland in 1941. As part of Operation Arctic Fox the division attacked with the SS Division Nord and German 169th Infantry Division against Salla with the goal of reaching Kandalaksha on the White Sea coast. The division also fought alongside a small German tank unit, the Panzer-Abteilung 211, which consisted entirely of captured French tanks. The attack was a failure.
And you're fooling no-one that the Finnish 6th Division is the same as the SS 6h Mountain Division, because that one was called at the time the SS Division Nord.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This is important to note, because unlike in Sweden and Norway, there was no Nazi party of any significance. There was a fairly popular Fascist Group (Isänmaallinen kansanliike - People's Fatherland Movement- the IKL) which was more to do with being Anti-Communist and had nothing at all to do with a dream of a 'Greater Germany'.
Are you now playing down Finnish fascists as harmless and playing up Norwegian and Swedish fascists as genocidal maniacs? Why?
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Old 12th December 2017, 03:16 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Not even that. "Stormtroopers", a mistranslation of "Sturmtruppen" (Assault Troops; Sturm is short for "Sturmangriff", "assault"), were elite "shock troops" (another mistranslation; "Stosstruppen" meaning "shoving" or "thrusting" troops) in WWI.

I forgive anyone for indulging in this misnomer (using the word "Stormtrooper" for the SA) though, it's so widespread.
Yes, I very much prefer to use the original German terms as well. It's Vixen who used the term. Because, since she belonged to the top-3 in her German class in high school, she prefers to use botched English translations.
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Old 12th December 2017, 03:36 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Duh, at that moment the USSR was an ally of Britain, and the only one in the European theater.


You like contemporary newspaper reports? Here's the Manchester Guardian of 8 September 1941:

So yes, Finnish military actions did contribute to the siege of Leningrad, and specifically tried to take away the last supply route, over Lake Ladoga. Moreover, this puts to rest your other lie that Finnish troops never advanced beyond the 1939 borders.


You mean, just like the Italians, the Romanians and Bulgarians after they switched sides? Cry me a river.


Cough cough.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Kilpapurjehdus:

It was purely coincidental that this operation took place on the same day as Barbarossa.

Erratum
: Yes, it should read 1941, and I've corrected it.

Finland didn't 'change sides' as it was never conterminous with Nazi aims in the first place.

Had Germany been successful at Leningrad, and yes there is some evidence the Finnish army did help blockade food supplies, then common sense tells us the Finns no doubt would have attempted to push further East had there been a German victory.

Hitler's Top Secret Operation Barbarossa memo doesn't mention anything about the kilpapurdehus re the Alands, so is it coincidental? In any case, it was no doubt more to do with the Finnish Army.

From THE TIMES newspaper, Thursday, May 1, 1941

Quote:
“ANOTHER WAR OF NERVES

“Swedish newspapers suggest that many Finns are working in close touch with the Germans in the hope of recovering the lands lost to Russia. But nothing is more difficult than to find out how much of this is true (it is strongly denied officially by the Finns) and how much is part of the nerve war, which Germany seems to be developing against Soviet Russia. The latest number of WEHRMACHT, the German Army magazine, for example, sharply reminds its readers that Hitler was the first to take up the fight against Bolshevism, and had conquered, after a ten years’ fight.

“Germany evidently hopes to wring appeasing concessions from Soviet Russia. Incidentally, the anti-Soviet moves and hints are highly useful to Hitler at the moment when he is trying to secure agreements with Madrid, Vichy, and (to a smaller degree) Lisbon.”

The article then goes on to speculate about the veto on ammunitions transition and suggests that perhaps M. Mikoyan’s decree relates to a German protest about recent Russian war materials passing through Sweden to Turkey."
We now know that Russia was right to be worried about these intelligence reports for on 22 June 1941, Germany invaded Russia in a hitherto Top Secret strategy labeled by Hitler, Operation Barbarossa, so named after ancient German Emperor, Frederick the Great, who was nicknamed “Barbarossa” because of his beard, and who defeated the Huns [check this] to establish the so-called “German nation” as we know it today. Hitler’s plan was to create Lebensraum (=”Living room)” for a “Greater Germany” and replace the “Untermensch” [=”inferior race”] Slavs with persons of German stock.

Operation Barbarossa was conceived in The Führer’s Headquarters, December 18, 1940, and such was the secrecy, only nine copies of the memorandum were circulated. A fourth copy of the memorandum was produced at the Nuremberg Trail [ R W Cooper, 1947, probably not copyrighted, as from a trial transcript] of 20th November 1945 and is addressed from,

Quote:
“The Führer and Commander-in Chief of German Armed Forces”, and marked “SECRET, Only through officer.


9 copies
4th Copy
Directive No. 21
Case (Fall) Barbarossa

The German Armed Forces must be prepared to crush Soviet Russia in a quick campaign before the end of the war against England.

For this purpose the Army will have to employ all available units with the reservation that the occupied territories will have to be safeguarded against surprise attacks.

For the Eastern campaign the Air Force will have to fee such strong forces for the support of the Army that a quick completion of the ground operations may be expected and the damage to the Eastern German territories will be avoided as much as possible. This concentration of the main effort in the East is limited by the following reservation: that the entire battle and armament area dominated by us must remain sufficiently protected against enemy air attacks and that the attacks on England and especially the supply for them must not be permitted to break down.

Concentration of the main effort of the Navy remains unequivocally against England also during an Eastern campaign.

If occasion arises I will order the concentration of troops for action against Soviet Russia eight weeks before the intended beginning of operations.

Preparations requiring more time to start are – if this has not yet been done – to begin at once and are to be completely by May 15, 1941.

Great caution has to be exercised that the intention of an attack will not be recognized.

I. General Purpose

The mass of the Russian Army in Western Russia is to be destroyed in daring operations by driving forwards deep wedges with tanks, and the retreat of intact battle-ready troops into the wide space of Russia is to be prevented.

In quick pursuit a (given) line is to be reached from where the Russian Air Force will no longer be able to attack German Reich territory. The first goal of operations is protection from Asiatic Russia from the general line Volga-Archangel. In the case of necessity, the last industrial area in the Urals left to Russia could be eliminated by the Luftwaffe.

In the course of these operations the Russian Baltic Sea Fleet will quickly erase its bases and will no longer be ready to fight.

Effective intervention by the Russian Air Force is to be prevented through forceful blows at the beginning of the operations.

II. Probable allies and their duties

(i) The active intervention on our side on both wings of our armies by Romania and Finland may be anticipated. The manner in and the extent to which the forces of these two countries will be under our orders, when they attack, will be agreed upon and determined by the Wehrmacht in due season.
(ii) [Follows broad instructions to each branch of the Wehrmacht]

Any dispositions to be made by commanders of troops in conformity with these Instructions must bear unmistakable evidence of being precautionary measures to be taken in case Russia should change the attitude she has hitherto observed towards us. The number of officers to be detailed at the outset to carry out preliminary work must be restricted to a minimum and the assignment of future assistants be deferred to as late as possible; the latter, moreover, must only be taken into our confidence so far as is essential in view of their activities. Otherwise there is a risk of knowledge of preparations, the date of execution of which is not yet settled, being noised abroad and entailing both from the political and military points of view the most serious inconvenience.”
How secret this was, can be shown from the minutes of Hitler’s meeting with Mussolini, 21 January 1941, shortly after. Italy was, of course, one of the Axis powers, the others of whom consisted of Germany and Japan. Hitler barely reveals the extent of his plans in Operation Barbarossa at all, saying of Finland:

“Finland is of great importance to us owing to the nickel finding unique in Europe. Russians promise to supply us with the quantity of nickel required, but only as long as they are pleased. Therefore Finland must not be interfered with any more.”

At the Nuremberg trial, much was made by the defence of “the secret clauses” of the Moscow Pact, which defined the German and Russian spheres of influence in the Baltic States and Poland and the claim now advanced that Russia had at least 150 divisions in readiness along the border for Operation Barbarossa. Whether true or not, the court was produced proof of the signed order of Wilhelm Keitel, Field-Marshall of the Interior and one of “Hitler’s Old Guard”, dated June 6th 1941, which gives a complete timetable for the planned attack on Russia, with D-Day set for June 22 and zero hour 3:30 am.

Earlier documents produced showed Operation Barbarossa to be “the greatest deception of all time”, as quoted at Nuremberg. Keitel’s signed order shows the forces available for the campaign to be 82 infantry divisions, one cavalry, twelve motorized infantry, seventeen armoured and nine lines-of-communication divisions, together with three air fleets. It was also reveals that the date planned for the optimum amassing of troops in the East is to be put into operation May 22, 1941, the same time that negotiations with the Finnish staff got under way (Source: R W Cooper, 1947).

On May 20, 1941 – we know now – Hitler’s Special Affairs minister, Karl Schnurre visited Finnish president Risto Ryti to request collaboration with the German soldiers in their war effort against Russia. By the end of May 1941, Finnish General Erik Heinrich was put in charge of this initiative. The Finns communicated May 25, 1941 with the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht - OKW headquarters in Salzburg, whose leader was Allfred Jodl, Chief of Operations Staff of O.K.W., himself later brought to trial at Nuremberg for war crimes against humanity.

The Germans needed the Nord Group of Norwegian-German troops to guard the Petsamo corridor in the Arctic North and asked Finnish President Ryti to enlist Finland’s help in their North Russia invasion plan. The Finnish army headquarters then worked in liaison with the German Armed Forces, Oberkommando des Heeres, OKH, to lead the Northern Army Group (Heeresgruppe Nord) into Operation Leningrad.

Hitler’s audacious aim in Operation Barbarossa was to obliterate from the face of the earth Leningrad, in the north, Moscow, in the centre of Soviet Russia, and Stalingrad, in the south. In order to do this, Hitler put in charge Field Marshal Ritter von Leeb to take overall command of the North Group.

So, it was an alliance, but only insofar it was mutually beneficial.

The Finns never supported Nazi ideals. The Nazis didn't see Finns as Europeans because of their Finno-Uralic (non-Germanic) language, any more than they saw the Muslims in the Mufti Brigades as 'Aryan'.

Your revision of history is so wrong.
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Old 12th December 2017, 03:42 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
You started "the numbers game".


Are you saying now that more Russian civillians died in WWII than did German civillians? That's not what you claimed before.



As convenient as it would be to think, Hitler was not a "raging lunatic". Delusional, reprehensibly vile, paranoid and nihilistic, yes, but chillingly rational within those parameters.
What? Now you are joking.

There is no doubt Hitler was a shrewd politician and a talented orator.

However, you only need read a few pages of his Mein Kampf to realise the guy is <fx whistle> cuckoo! - completely stark raving mad.

Bonkers!

Germany: what were you thinking?????
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Old 12th December 2017, 04:01 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This is important to note, because unlike in Sweden and Norway, there was no Nazi party of any significance. There was a fairly popular Fascist Group (Isänmaallinen kansanliike - People's Fatherland Movement- the IKL) which was more to do with being Anti-Communist and had nothing at all to do with a dream of a 'Greater Germany'.
Could you expand on this? This what wiki tells me about the IKL:
Quote:
Ideologically, IKL was ardently nationalist and anti-Communist, and endorsed an aggressive foreign policy against the Soviet Union and hostility towards the Swedish language.[3] The creation of a Greater Finland was an important goal for the party.
(are you listening, Tubba? These guys wanted to oppress the Swedish minority, but according to Vixen they were totally harmless.)

Also, they actually held seats in parliament: 14 out of 200 in 1933, 14 in 1936, 8 in 1939, and they even got into government in 1941. But before that, the government actively tried to get the party banned through the courts.

By contrast, Quisling's Nasjonal Samling in Norway, while virulent Nazi, never held any seats in parliament and only had a couple of hundred members when Germany invaded in 1940.

And the Swedish National Socialist Workers Party never had any seats in parliament either, and were more Strasserite than Hitlerite, dropped the swastika and renamed themselves to Svensk Socialistisk Samling.

I don't see this Norwegian or Swedish Nazi parties of significance.
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Old 12th December 2017, 04:08 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post

Do you take yourself even serious? My God. Make that Reinhard Heydrich.

.
PS Of course, it's Heydrich. Goodness knows how Himmler crept in.
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Old 12th December 2017, 04:23 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
It was part of an operation to capture the Murmansk Railroad. As did the Finnish 6th Division:

And you're fooling no-one that the Finnish 6th Division is the same as the SS 6h Mountain Division, because that one was called at the time the SS Division Nord.


Are you now playing down Finnish fascists as harmless and playing up Norwegian and Swedish fascists as genocidal maniacs? Why?
The 6th Division was under German command.

I didn't say Finnish Fascists were harmless, I was pointing out they did not have Nazi German ideals. They were a patriotic nationalistic movement and anti-communist. This is against a backdrop of independence from Russia dated from 1917. They were keen to establish a Finnish identity, which was neither Russian or Swedish.

The Nazi groups of Norway and Sweden shared the same ideology as the Germans.
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Old 12th December 2017, 04:26 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
WTF? You are unaware of Great Britain's copious war crimes? Really?
Can you provide a few examples?

Oh, and Abaddon, whilst you are busy, perhaps you can tell us what Ireland did in the war.
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Old 12th December 2017, 04:43 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
On the Famines, I link to this review of "The Years of Hunger": https://eh.net/book_reviews/the-year...ure-1931-1933/ It sums up the salient points:



The review linked also contains some critiques of the work that is worth reading, but none that affects the point here: While the USSR government, and Stalin personally, bear responsibliity for the policies that exacerbated the famine and the confused repsonses, it is absolutely not fair to characterize the deaths as "murder" in the same vein as the Holocaust. I would not say that this is an absolute consensus view; the idea that Stalin wanted to destroy Ukrainian nationalism as per the late Robert Conquest lingers, but there is simply no evidence for it.

Regarding the Great Purge, I will just be lazy and cite Conquest's "The Great Terror", which concludes about 1-2 million deaths. The purges also need to be contextualized as they were not exactly the massive Stalin-spawned conspiracy Conquest imagines, nor centrally coordinated, nor directed toward any particular policy goal. This is much more contentious though and not a debate there is really room for here. Stalin certainly bears much responsibility - however one chooses to view it, he certainly exploited the conditions of the purge for his own gain, and played an important role in creating those conditions.

There were various other crimes commited by the USSR, but as far as numbers go, none measure up to the famines or to the Purges.

For the numbers on Nazi Germany, I guess it's simplest to cite Evans' Third Reich trilogy. In addition to the 5.5-6 million Jewish victims of the Holocaust, three million ethnic Poles were killed as part of Generalplan Ost, which sought to exterminate much of the Slav population. In addition to the Poles, millions of Ukrainians, Soviet PoW:s, Belarusians, and Serbs were killed as part of this extermination policy. Adding to that the various misc. persecuted groups (Romani, Sinti, Homosexuals, Freemasons...) we end up with a number between 11 million (conservative, excluding summary execution of POW:s for instance), and it goes over 15 million, depending on estimates and who we choose to include.


There.

I awate your graceful concession.
Certainly not.

I note the reviewer writes:

Quote:
While official projections of the harvest dropped substantially, however, Soviet leaders refused to believe that another catastrophe like 1931 had occurred, and pressed forward with only a moderately reduced procurement plan. Implementing this plan, however, brought a tremendous struggle between regime and peasants, simultaneous with a disastrous decline in food supplies for the towns, and widespread theft and attempted theft at all stages of distribution. In response, Stalin wrote a law issued on 7 August that imposed death penalties or 10-year exile for theft of “socialist property.
Charming fellow, I'm sure.
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Old 12th December 2017, 04:54 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Finland didn't 'change sides' as it was never conterminous with Nazi aims in the first place.
The word "conterminous" does not really make sense here. But no-one here claimed that Finland shared the same war aims as the Nazis.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Had Germany been successful at Leningrad, and yes there is some evidence the Finnish army did help blockade food supplies, then common sense tells us the Finns no doubt would have attempted to push further East had there been a German victory.
That's an admission they helped in the siege.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
On May 20, 1941 – we know now – Hitler’s Special Affairs minister, Karl Schnurre visited Finnish president Risto Ryti to request collaboration with the German soldiers in their war effort against Russia. By the end of May 1941, Finnish General Erik Heinrich was put in charge of this initiative. The Finns communicated May 25, 1941 with the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht - OKW headquarters in Salzburg, whose leader was Allfred Jodl, Chief of Operations Staff of O.K.W., himself later brought to trial at Nuremberg for war crimes against humanity.

The Germans needed the Nord Group of Norwegian-German troops to guard the Petsamo corridor in the Arctic North and asked Finnish President Ryti to enlist Finland’s help in their North Russia invasion plan. The Finnish army headquarters then worked in liaison with the German Armed Forces, Oberkommando des Heeres, OKH, to lead the Northern Army Group (Heeresgruppe Nord) into Operation Leningrad.

<snip>

So, it was an alliance, but only insofar it was mutually beneficial.
So you admit that Finland and Germany collaborated in their war efforts, both on political level and on military level. There's a simple English word for that: "ally".

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Finns never supported Nazi ideals. The Nazis didn't see Finns as Europeans because of their Finno-Uralic (non-Germanic) language, any more than they saw the Muslims in the Mufti Brigades as 'Aryan'.
Hitler declared in November 1942 that the Finns were a Nordic people.

And nobody ever claimed that the Finns supported the Nazi ideals. But they were Nazi allies, and you have admitted that here.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Your revision of history is so wrong.
I'm not revising history. You're the one who's revising history. Let's see:
(1) you keep insisting that Finland and Nazi Germany were not allies, but above you describe exactly that.
(2) you keep insisting that there was no collaboration, but the Finnish 6th division fought under German command in Arctic Fox.
(3) you keep insisting that Finland did not contribute to the siege of Leningrad, but above you describe exactly that.
(4) you also keep insisting that Finland did not advance beyond the 1939 border, which you keep erroneously referring to as the Mannerheim line. Can you comment on the frontline (green line) in this map? Were there Finnish troops on or even over the Svir river? Note the source of the map.

And really, don't spout off any nonsense like this below:
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We now know that Russia was right to be worried about these intelligence reports for on 22 June 1941, Germany invaded Russia in a hitherto Top Secret strategy labeled by Hitler, Operation Barbarossa, so named after ancient German Emperor,
The Greeks and Romans were ancient, not a German emperor from around 1200, who went on Crusade with Richard Lionheart.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Frederick the Great,
He was never called "the Great". Frederick the Great was a Prussian 18th C. king.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
who was nicknamed “Barbarossa” because of his red beard,
Half an explanation, really?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
and who defeated the Huns [check this]
The Huns had disappeared for 700 years by then.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
to establish the so-called “German nation” as we know it today.
Utter BS.
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Old 12th December 2017, 04:56 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The 6th Division was under German command.
Yes. And it was a regular Finnish army division composed of Finnish soldiers.

And how did this work then:
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No Finn with any self-respect EVER. saluted a German officer.
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Old 12th December 2017, 05:03 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Yes. And it was a regular Finnish army division composed of Finnish soldiers.

And how did this work then:
Note the operative words:self-respect.

Many of the Finns in Division VI were naive sixteen-year old boys 'looking for adventure' some too young for the regular army.

Let's face, it the Germans used anybody they could as cannon fodder (cf the Mufti Division).
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Old 12th December 2017, 05:12 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The word "conterminous" does not really make sense here. But no-one here claimed that Finland shared the same war aims as the Nazis.


That's an admission they helped in the siege.


So you admit that Finland and Germany collaborated in their war efforts, both on political level and on military level. There's a simple English word for that: "ally".


Hitler declared in November 1942 that the Finns were a Nordic people.

And nobody ever claimed that the Finns supported the Nazi ideals. But they were Nazi allies, and you have admitted that here.


I'm not revising history. You're the one who's revising history. Let's see:
(1) you keep insisting that Finland and Nazi Germany were not allies, but above you describe exactly that.
(2) you keep insisting that there was no collaboration, but the Finnish 6th division fought under German command in Arctic Fox.
(3) you keep insisting that Finland did not contribute to the siege of Leningrad, but above you describe exactly that.
(4) you also keep insisting that Finland did not advance beyond the 1939 border, which you keep erroneously referring to as the Mannerheim line. Can you comment on the frontline (green line) in this map? Were there Finnish troops on or even over the Svir river? Note the source of the map.

And really, don't spout off any nonsense like this below:

The Greeks and Romans were ancient, not a German emperor from around 1200, who went on Crusade with Richard Lionheart.

He was never called "the Great". Frederick the Great was a Prussian 18th C. king.

Half an explanation, really?

The Huns had disappeared for 700 years by then.

Utter BS.

They were co-belligerents. That has never been denied. That is not the same thing as combining ranks, as the Italians did.

There is a huge polar range of the meaning of the word 'Alliance' and your attempt to insinuate it means the Finns were also Nazis is called out.

Some individuals may have been Nazi collaborators, but you will be hard-pressed to find any to the extent of those uncovered in France and Norway, for example.

Finland did not take part in the actual Siege of Leningrad.

After the war, with USSR the victors and the purveyors of hegemony, it is the Soviets who have tried to claim Finland helped with food blockades. There is some evidence of this, from what I have read. However, it is exaggerated to try to make their war opponents look like the 'baddies'.

As Craig B quoted earlier, the Finns did not cross the old Mannerheim Line.
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Old 12th December 2017, 05:12 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Certainly not.

I note the reviewer writes:



Charming fellow, I'm sure.
Care to elaborate on how this proves your point? Or are you just engaging in abject dishonesty now? You asked for sources and figures to refute your ignorant statements comparing Soviet and Nazi crimes. I provided them.

Note this particular statements as well:

Quote:
The decisions that these officials made, such as the impositions and then reductions of procurement quotas, or the lowering of rations for certain sectors of the population, represented short term, desperate, and often mistaken responses to the developing emergencies of these years, and not components of an overarching destructive intent.
In case you've forgotten, the discussion is not over whether Stalin was a nice person. It is about the appropriateness of your comparisons to Hitler, and especially the statement that "Stalin killed twice as many".
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Old 12th December 2017, 05:14 PM   #153
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Quoted for reference:
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This is important to note, because unlike in Sweden and Norway, there was no Nazi party of any significance. There was a fairly popular Fascist Group (Isänmaallinen kansanliike - People's Fatherland Movement- the IKL) which was more to do with being Anti-Communist and had nothing at all to do with a dream of a 'Greater Germany'.
in answering this post:
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I didn't say Finnish Fascists were harmless, I was pointing out they did not have Nazi German ideals. They were a patriotic nationalistic movement and anti-communist. This is against a backdrop of independence from Russia dated from 1917. They were keen to establish a Finnish identity, which was neither Russian or Swedish.
And establish a "Greater Finland". Where's the eastern border of that? The Urals? It's quite disingenuous to claim they the didn't want a "Greater Germany", because, duh, they were Finns so they wanted a Greater Finland. Like the Italian fascists wanted a Greater Italy. And the Dutch fascists a Greater Netherlands, which includes Flanders.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Nazi groups of Norway and Sweden shared the same ideology as the Germans.
Your post clearly claims that the Norwegian and Swedish Nazi parties were of significance. How does that work when Quisling's party only had a few hundred members?
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Old 12th December 2017, 05:16 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Care to elaborate on how this proves your point? Or are you just engaging in abject dishonesty now? You asked for sources and figures to refute your ignorant statements comparing Soviet and Nazi crimes. I provided them.

In case you've forgotten, the discussion is not over whether Stalin was a nice person. It is about the appropriateness of your comparisons to Hitler, and especially the statement that "Stalin killed twice as many".
People are starving, and Stalin imposes a death penalty or ten years in a prison camp, if they are caught securing food to eat?

Yet you claim Stalin had nothing to do with the famines.

Anyway, where is the exact breakdown of figures?
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Old 12th December 2017, 05:20 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Quoted for reference:


in answering this post:

And establish a "Greater Finland". Where's the eastern border of that? The Urals? It's quite disingenuous to claim they the didn't want a "Greater Germany", because, duh, they were Finns so they wanted a Greater Finland. Like the Italian fascists wanted a Greater Italy. And the Dutch fascists a Greater Netherlands, which includes Flanders.


Your post clearly claims that the Norwegian and Swedish Nazi parties were of significance. How does that work when Quisling's party only had a few hundred members?

Fifteen Norwegian resistance protesters were shot dead by the Norwegian/German Nazis, including mild-mannered bankers, at the start.

Where is the equivalent situation in Finland?
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Old 12th December 2017, 05:26 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
People are starving, and Stalin imposes a death penalty or ten years in a prison camp, if they are caught securing food to eat?

Yet you claim Stalin had nothing to do with the famines.
The ultimate cause of the famines were natural disaster. As the review points out, mistaken, wrongheaded and poorly implemented policy, as well as lack of proper centralized control, worsened the famine. That penalty is certainly not sympathetic, but to imply that this particular decree was a primary cause of the deaths of so many is absurd.

I also do not have to prove your weasely, twisted versions of my statements, like "Stalin had nothing to do with the famines". Such a vague assertion can never be proven, even if I were to make it. Rather, it suffices to say that the deaths due to famine were not intentionally caused by Stalin - at best, some part of them were the result of poorly implemented responses to the famine.

Since your objection is irrelevant, I consider this a concession on your part.

Quote:
Anyway, where is the exact breakdown of figures?
I gave you breakdowns that are sufficiently detailed to show how wrong your assertion is. You argue like a Holocaust dener - as if as long as we cannot meet some arbitrary, ever increasingly detailed standard of evidence you are per default right. That is not the case - it is by sheer gracefulness I even bothered to fulfill your ridiculous "show me I'm wrong"-style demand.

I suggest you instead work on providing some figures of your own. I will consider any failure to provide such figures a concession on your part.
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Old 12th December 2017, 05:43 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Note the operative words:self-respect.
Ah, the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Many of the Finns in Division VI were naive sixteen-year old boys 'looking for adventure' some too young for the regular army.
How does that work in a conscription army? I note that wiki says
Quote:
The 6th Division was organised from men from the Far-North Military Province (Perä-Pohjolan Sotilaslääni)
Did all the men of age to serve in the army from that province happen to be 16 years old?

And no, we're not talking about the SS Nord Division, we're talking about a regular division in the Finnish Army that was attached to the German XXXVI Corps during Arctic Fox, and that was commanded by Colonel Werner Viikla, who committed suicide after failure of that operation.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Let's face, it the Germans used anybody they could as cannon fodder (cf the Mufti Division).
Not in 1941. And that's totally irrelevant.
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Old 12th December 2017, 05:46 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Fifteen Norwegian resistance protesters were shot dead by the Norwegian/German Nazis, including mild-mannered bankers, at the start.

Where is the equivalent situation in Finland?
After the German army had occupied Norway. There's simply no comparison.
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Old 12th December 2017, 06:01 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They were co-belligerents. That has never been denied. That is not the same thing as combining ranks, as the Italians did.
You can keep trying to deny that, but that's simply lying. Operations were coordinated and Finnish army units operated under German command.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There is a huge polar range of the meaning of the word 'Alliance'
BS. The UK, US and USSR also had quite differing ideologies and they still were allies.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
and your attempt to insinuate it means the Finns were also Nazis is called out.
I've never even tried to insinuate that. And the lady doth protest too much.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Finland did not take part in the actual Siege of Leningrad.
Its operations on the Isthmus and between Lakes Ladoga and Onega contributed to the siege. And the Finnish naval operations on Lake Ladoga. A part of those Leningrad deaths are attributable to the Finnish war contribution.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As Craig B quoted earlier, the Finns did not cross the old Mannerheim Line.
(1) Craig B didn't quote anything of the sort, that's a lie.
(2) Stop saying Mannerheim Line when you mean the 1939 border
(3) this map, which I forgot to link in my previous post, belies that. Note the source.
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Old 12th December 2017, 07:12 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Aside: Hitler had a "Military Dictatorship"? Who knew!
Yes, you learn something when Vixen comes in the thread. Left is right, up is down, top is bottom. That's the strange charm of it.

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Or are you just engaging in abject dishonesty now?
I can see more examples of that in this thread. Like pretending not to know that the Finnish 6th division was a regular Finnish army unit and "confusing" it with the SS Nord Division which later was called the SS 6th Division.

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
You argue like a Holocaust denier
What do you mean, "like"?

First, her claim that killing Jews was legal in Nazi Germany means that it was not mass murder but legal execution. That is Holocaust denial.

Second, her claim of only 6 million victims of the Nazi regime is also Holocaust denial. Either that number includes other "undesirables" than the Jews and then the number of Jews is too low, ergo denial of the Holocaust sensu stricto. Or the number only includes Jews and then it's denial of the Holocaust sensu lato.

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
I suggest you instead work on providing some figures of your own. I will consider any failure to provide such figures a concession on your part.
I'd like to also see Vixen's list of groups of victims of the Nazi regime. And no, I don't see a failure to do so as a concession.

And Tubba, thank you for the link to that recension. Quite interesting.
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