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Old 12th December 2017, 07:24 PM   #161
TubbaBlubba
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I'd like to also see Vixen's list of groups of victims of the Nazi regime. And no, I don't see a failure to do so as a concession.
Well, as far as my desire to provide figures goes, replying to a rebuttal with an irrelevant sidestep is as good as a concession.

Quote:
And Tubba, thank you for the link to that recension. Quite interesting.
You're welcome. It's one of those books I've been meaning to read for a long time, but I'm still kind of sated on the subject after slogging through Conquest's and other tomes the other year. It's still a very contentious issue, though a bit less so since Conquest died a few years ago. But some (IMO second-rate) historians like Tim Snyder have a very strong sympathy with Ukrainian nationalism, to the point of being very prone to reading malice into anything done by the central government of the USSR.

The desire to "Holocaustify" tragedies and atrocities in the USSR does the victims a disservice since it obscures the chilling way the resulting structural oppression and political violence was almost incidental to Soviet policies.
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Old 13th December 2017, 02:57 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am not aware Great Britain committed any WWII war crimes.

Care to be more specific?
You seem to be implying that Russian civilian casualties of WWII are all Stalin's fault given that you're putting them in his "kill" list.

This is simply untrue, the million and a half who died in Leningrad during the siege can be placed squarely in the Nazi/Finnish column.
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Old 13th December 2017, 03:14 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
The ultimate cause of the famines were natural disaster. As the review points out, mistaken, wrongheaded and poorly implemented policy, as well as lack of proper centralized control, worsened the famine. That penalty is certainly not sympathetic, but to imply that this particular decree was a primary cause of the deaths of so many is absurd.

I also do not have to prove your weasely, twisted versions of my statements, like "Stalin had nothing to do with the famines". Such a vague assertion can never be proven, even if I were to make it. Rather, it suffices to say that the deaths due to famine were not intentionally caused by Stalin - at best, some part of them were the result of poorly implemented responses to the famine.

Since your objection is irrelevant, I consider this a concession on your part.


I gave you breakdowns that are sufficiently detailed to show how wrong your assertion is. You argue like a Holocaust dener - as if as long as we cannot meet some arbitrary, ever increasingly detailed standard of evidence you are per default right. That is not the case - it is by sheer gracefulness I even bothered to fulfill your ridiculous "show me I'm wrong"-style demand.

I suggest you instead work on providing some figures of your own. I will consider any failure to provide such figures a concession on your part.
Quite frankly, Stalin's claim that starving people are 'stealing from State property' and will be sentenced to death/exile if they try to obtain food to feed themselves and their families, when this is land stolen by the state from 'the people' in the first place fills me with outrage.

It is known Valdimir Putin is a Stalin admirer and I wouldn't be surprised if Russian agents are behind the revision of history campaign to paint Stalin as benign, giving the authors of articles and books innocuous sounding English names, like 'Edward Carr'.

I am a friend of Vad Yashem and have visited it in person in Jerusalem. The place is huge and the sheer scale of the exhibition left me in no doubt as to the scope of the enormity of Hitler's crimes. The argument I am 'pro-Hitler' because I stated the common view that Stalin's crimes are just as appalling if not doubly so- as far as numbers go - is a ludicrous failure of logic.
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Old 13th December 2017, 03:42 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Ah, the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.


How does that work in a conscription army? I note that wiki says

Did all the men of age to serve in the army from that province happen to be 16 years old?

And no, we're not talking about the SS Nord Division, we're talking about a regular division in the Finnish Army that was attached to the German XXXVI Corps during Arctic Fox, and that was commanded by Colonel Werner Viikla, who committed suicide after failure of that operation.


Not in 1941. And that's totally irrelevant.

When it comes to politics and military history involving Russia I'd be slightly wary of claims written by persons sympathetic towards the communists.

In addition, many of the Finnish generals changed their names from Swedish. For example, Talvela was born Thorstén.

Viikla was born Viklund. Your claim he committed suicide because of some kind of military shame is sheer revisionism as he was posthumously awarded the Mannerheim Cross, Finland's highest honour.

Quote:
After the outbreak of the Continuation War, he was commanded as a commander of the 6th division of the Northern Finns in the attack and participated with the Polar Fuchsi (polished) mission in the Muurmann railway in the Kantalahti district with the German XXXVI army . [2] However, the mission did not achieve its objectives and caused a lot of losses. Major General Hjalmar Siilasvuo ended up with the Finns surprisingly to stop the propagation attempts without any explanation. Against the backdrop of the US pressure on Marshal Mannerheim.

The Viikla shot himself on December 18, 1941 at 0.35 in his command post at Karmalampi. He was told to have had personal sorrows. [3] He never learned of the intended general refrain, nor of the Mannerheim cross , which was granted him a posthumous order, but was appointed on 15 December 1941. [2]The 6th division was initially directed to Salla, but when the progression was later stopped on the Verman line and when the Kuusamo - Kiesting line had reached favorable positions, it was decided to shift the focus there. In other words, the battalions of JR 12 I and III were transferred to the Finnish III Army, in addition to the II battalion there.
https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verner_Viikla

As you have been told, Major General Hjalmar Siilasvuo, who was Finnish, was the only non-German commander of a German division.

As for age, my source is from a commemorative magazine I bought on impulse at the airport whilst waiting for my flight. It is an ILTA SANOMAT 100 years War Supplement, in which they feature 100 veterans describing their war experiences. Someone called Pentti Vanamo, b. 1925, relates how he was pro-Germany as a boy and wanted adventure. Sorry, I am mistaken, he says he was 16, but was turned away from the SS regiment as their age limit was 17. He goes on to say when he discovered eight Jewish families in Turku were deported it changed his attitude towards the Germans. He says the war experience was 'terrible' and something he will never forget.

Yes a handful of Finns signed up with the Germans, but the vast majority stuck to the Finnish army.
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Old 13th December 2017, 03:49 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
You seem to be implying that Russian civilian casualties of WWII are all Stalin's fault given that you're putting them in his "kill" list.

This is simply untrue, the million and a half who died in Leningrad during the siege can be placed squarely in the Nazi/Finnish column.
That is a lazy simplistic way of looking at it. As the Finnish border is very near Leningrad, it is so easy of modern day Russian revisionists to point the finger at Finland for the Leningrad Siege.

I do blame Stalin. The post-Russian Revolution era was a great tragedy for the USSR and eastern Europe, and Stalin was the author of it.

The Finns who were pro-Red during the revolution breathed a huge sigh of relief the Reds didn't win in Finland when they realised how utterly dreadful conditions in the USSR were.

Finland as of the time of the Leningrad Siege was a western democratic country, not a fascist military dictatorship, as Germany was.

You must stop conflating the two countries into one.
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Old 13th December 2017, 03:55 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Well, as far as my desire to provide figures goes, replying to a rebuttal with an irrelevant sidestep is as good as a concession.



You're welcome. It's one of those books I've been meaning to read for a long time, but I'm still kind of sated on the subject after slogging through Conquest's and other tomes the other year. It's still a very contentious issue, though a bit less so since Conquest died a few years ago. But some (IMO second-rate) historians like Tim Snyder have a very strong sympathy with Ukrainian nationalism, to the point of being very prone to reading malice into anything done by the central government of the USSR.

The desire to "Holocaustify" tragedies and atrocities in the USSR does the victims a disservice since it obscures the chilling way the resulting structural oppression and political violence was almost incidental to Soviet policies.
Famines might initially be the result of natural causes, but there is little excuse for millions to die of hunger. There have been terrible famines in Finland and they were exacerbated by Sweden refusing to send grain, except at grossly inflated prices (similar to the British Corn Laws contributing to the Irish potato famine, which also killed hundreds of thousands/millions).

The famines in Africa are virtually completely due to politics rather than a real lack of food, which can be imported.
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Old 13th December 2017, 03:59 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Quoted for reference:


in answering this post:

And establish a "Greater Finland". Where's the eastern border of that? The Urals? It's quite disingenuous to claim they the didn't want a "Greater Germany", because, duh, they were Finns so they wanted a Greater Finland. Like the Italian fascists wanted a Greater Italy. And the Dutch fascists a Greater Netherlands, which includes Flanders.


Your post clearly claims that the Norwegian and Swedish Nazi parties were of significance. How does that work when Quisling's party only had a few hundred members?
LOL Given that the Finnish population was just 3.3 million and the Soviet Union 176 million, b'ain't never gonna happen, except in fascist pipedreams.
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Old 13th December 2017, 04:02 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
After the German army had occupied Norway. There's simply no comparison.
No, this was before they were established; in the very early days.
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Old 13th December 2017, 04:03 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That is a lazy simplistic way of looking at it. As the Finnish border is very near Leningrad, it is so easy of modern day Russian revisionists to point the finger at Finland for the Leningrad Siege.
Of course it's easy, the Finns helped to enforce the siege - there's no revisionism required.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I do blame Stalin. The post-Russian Revolution era was a great tragedy for the USSR and eastern Europe, and Stalin was the author of it.
I find it quite amazing that, presumably in order to never have to admit that you were wrong, that you're going to lay the blame for the civilian casualties during the Leningrad siege during WWII at the feet of Stalin instead of the Germans and Finns who enforced the siege.

I suppose it was the Jews' fault that they died in the concentration camps too...

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Finns who were pro-Red during the revolution breathed a huge sigh of relief the Reds didn't win in Finland when they realised how utterly dreadful conditions in the USSR were.

Finland as of the time of the Leningrad Siege was a western democratic country, not a fascist military dictatorship, as Germany was.
Finland's constitutional setup at the time they decided to ally themselves with Nazi Germany is IMO irrelevant, they still fought against the allies on the side of the Nazis. If you want Finland's constitutional setup at the time to be relevant then it's even more reprehensible that a democracy chose to ally with the Nazis. At least the other Nazi allies had the excuse that they were forced by their own dictators, Finland chose to ally themselves with the Nazis.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You must stop conflating the two countries into one.
I'm not conflating them at all....

Nazis - genocidal Fascist regime
Finns - country which allied itself with a genocidal Fascist regime
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Old 13th December 2017, 04:08 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You can keep trying to deny that, but that's simply lying. Operations were coordinated and Finnish army units operated under German command.


BS. The UK, US and USSR also had quite differing ideologies and they still were allies.


I've never even tried to insinuate that. And the lady doth protest too much.


Its operations on the Isthmus and between Lakes Ladoga and Onega contributed to the siege. And the Finnish naval operations on Lake Ladoga. A part of those Leningrad deaths are attributable to the Finnish war contribution.


(1) Craig B didn't quote anything of the sort, that's a lie.
(2) Stop saying Mannerheim Line when you mean the 1939 border
(3) this map, which I forgot to link in my previous post, belies that. Note the source.
Yes, they went to Äänislinna (now called Petrograd) on Lake Ladoga - my 23-year old uncle was a fallen soldier at Maaselkä - to reclaim Karelia.

That military exercise had nothing to do with the Siege of Leningrad.

Note the distance of Lake Ladoga from Leningrad. The imputed food blockade was claimed to be along the road to Viipuri (Vyburg).

The Finnish army did not participate in the Siege of Leningrad.
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Old 13th December 2017, 04:16 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Yes, you learn something when Vixen comes in the thread. Left is right, up is down, top is bottom. That's the strange charm of it.


I can see more examples of that in this thread. Like pretending not to know that the Finnish 6th division was a regular Finnish army unit and "confusing" it with the SS Nord Division which later was called the SS 6th Division.


What do you mean, "like"?

First, her claim that killing Jews was legal in Nazi Germany means that it was not mass murder but legal execution. That is Holocaust denial.

Second, her claim of only 6 million victims of the Nazi regime is also Holocaust denial. Either that number includes other "undesirables" than the Jews and then the number of Jews is too low, ergo denial of the Holocaust sensu stricto. Or the number only includes Jews and then it's denial of the Holocaust sensu lato.


I'd like to also see Vixen's list of groups of victims of the Nazi regime. And no, I don't see a failure to do so as a concession.

And Tubba, thank you for the link to that recension. Quite interesting.

Excuse me, but my source is far more reliable than your pontification. R W Cooper, 1947, paperback book about the Nuremburg Trials states very clearly that the vast majority of the German participants in the Nazi war (eight million were cardholding Nazi party members; multiply that by three or four to include family/household sharers), yet only a couple of hundred were ever hanged for war crimes.

The rationale? It was ruled that as the Third Reich had made it quite legal to attack and kill Jews, Roma and so-called 'degenerates', then the average German was simply 'following orders' and obeying Reich laws.

It was considered that the culprits were the army Generals and the 'men at the top'.

So, yes, by that criteria, ordinary Germans got away with exterminating six million Jews. A few thosuand got short two or three year jail sentences, but that was about it.

In other words, it was presumed it was legal for the entire nation to behave as terminators.

It's such a schoolboy argument to jeer, the Gerries are the baddies and the Commies all egalitarian and correct.
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Old 13th December 2017, 04:22 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Of course it's easy, the Finns helped to enforce the siege - there's no revisionism required.



I find it quite amazing that, presumably in order to never have to admit that you were wrong, that you're going to lay the blame for the civilian casualties during the Leningrad siege during WWII at the feet of Stalin instead of the Germans and Finns who enforced the siege.

I suppose it was the Jews' fault that they died in the concentration camps too...



Finland's constitutional setup at the time they decided to ally themselves with Nazi Germany is IMO irrelevant, they still fought against the allies on the side of the Nazis. If you want Finland's constitutional setup at the time to be relevant then it's even more reprehensible that a democracy chose to ally with the Nazis. At least the other Nazi allies had the excuse that they were forced by their own dictators, Finland chose to ally themselves with the Nazis.



I'm not conflating them at all....

Nazis - genocidal Fascist regime
Finns - country which allied itself with a genocidal Fascist regime

Your grasp of military history is terrible. Finland did not 'fight against the allies'.


The allies - if by which you mean Britain and America - had sweet FA to do with it.
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Old 13th December 2017, 04:29 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, they went to Äänislinna (now called Petrograd) on Lake Ladoga - my 23-year old uncle was a fallen soldier at Maaselkä - to reclaim Karelia.

That military exercise had nothing to do with the Siege of Leningrad.

Note the distance of Lake Ladoga from Leningrad. The imputed food blockade was claimed to be along the road to Viipuri (Vyburg).

The Finnish army did not participate in the Siege of Leningrad.
Highlighted1 Are you absolutely sure about that?

Highlighted2 That would be about 10km for present day leningrad/St Petersburg, maybe a few km more.
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Old 13th December 2017, 04:35 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
Highlighted1 Are you absolutely sure about that?

Highlighted2 That would be about 10km for present day leningrad/St Petersburg, maybe a few km more.
What? Maaselka/Petrograd to Leningrad/St Petersburg is 580 km and 8 hours drive by car.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/St...2!2d63.1499578
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Old 13th December 2017, 04:43 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What? Maaselka/Petrograd to Leningrad/St Petersburg is 580 km and 8 hours drive by car.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/St...2!2d63.1499578
Yes it is. That drive is indeed almost 600 km

But you said Äänislinna was on (I suspect you mean next) to lake Ladoga. It simply isn't.

The distance between the edge of present day Leningrad and lake Ladoga is 34 km over the road (ok a bit more than the 10 km I estimated by eye, earlier, but nowhere near anything even approaching 100 km, let alone more).
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Old 13th December 2017, 04:47 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Your grasp of military history is terrible.
It may not be great, but it's a heck of a lot better than yours as it relates to this thread.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Finland did not 'fight against the allies'.
Of course it did - it fought against the Soviet Union, and against any other allies that happened to be operating in that theatre fighting alongside the Soviets.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The allies - if by which you mean Britain and America - had sweet FA to do with it.
Why would I exclude the ally who did a lot of the heavy lifting against the Axis powers on the ground in the middle of the war - the Soviet Union ?

Look, I get that it was embarrassing for the Finns to be allied with the Nazis during WWII but pretending that it never happened doesn't make things better.
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Old 13th December 2017, 04:54 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is known Valdimir Putin is a Stalin admirer and I wouldn't be surprised if Russian agents are behind the revision of history campaign to paint Stalin as benign, giving the authors of articles and books innocuous sounding English names, like 'Edward Carr'.
This is a fine piece of CT fantasy, which does your argument no credit at all. See E.H.CarrWP and tell me if you think he's an invention of Putin. This is completely nutty.
Quote:
I am a friend of Vad Yashem and have visited it in person in Jerusalem. The place is huge and the sheer scale of the exhibition left me in no doubt as to the scope of the enormity of Hitler's crimes. The argument I am 'pro-Hitler' because I stated the common view that Stalin's crimes are just as appalling if not doubly so- as far as numbers go - is a ludicrous failure of logic.
And that is a ludicrous failure of understanding. Hitler and Stalin differed in this respect. Hitler mainly killed "others", people whom he didn't define as "German"; Stalin's victims were mainly his "own people". More than 90% in each case.

So to argue that Stalin killed more Soviet people than Hitler killed Germans, which is very true, is to miss the point, not about the scale, but about the very nature, of their respective criminality. With Hitler, counting his victims is relatively easy. Jews were killed because they were Jews, Romanis because they were Romani, and so on. With Stalin it is more complex. Which of the people who died in the USSR in Stalin's years were in fact his victims? And what was the nature of the crime against them?

His main crimes were the Great Purge, and similar enterprises additional to the main 1937-38 episode. Stalin is clearly and unambiguously responsible for that outrage, which cost more than two million lives, and unmeasurable suffering.

But what of the civilian casualties of the War? Hitler was the aggressor, and without the aggression they wouldn't have died, so Hitler is the perp here.

Now for the big Stalin one: the collectivisation famine and repression, in which several millions died and millions more were displaced, and the peasantry was dispossessed of its right to sell its produce. Stalin is responsible for this. Was it direct intentional murder? I really think not, in this sense: if Stalin could have dispossessed the peasants without killing them, would he have done so? I'm sure of it. Like many tyrants he had an obsession with increasing the population under his rule. (See wiki on the 1937 Soviet Census.)

Was Stalin entirely innocent, and the deaths were caused by climatic or environmental disaster? I don't think so, because climate doesn't stop at borders, but the famine did. There were no mass deaths in Poland or Lithuania, but there were in Belorussia and Ukraine. Stalin's guilt is that he continued to procure grain by force even when he knew it was causing death.

The next year the peasants reduced their sowings, but the procurement went on. The amount of famine relief undertaken by the state was ludicrously inadequate. Compare Stalin's response to the Soviet reaction to the earlier 1922 famine, to see the difference. Unlike in 1922, Stalin denied to the world that the collectivisation famine was happening at all, and neither sought not accepted international famine relief.

He is guilty of these deaths because to him the change in land tenure was more urgent than preserving human life. He may have thought that this collectivisation would bring a golden future (grain was being sold abroad to fund development of Soviet industry, which was indeed impressive) and would be worth the pain in the long run. Perhaps he did. It's not an excuse in legal terms, and a dubious one morally.

Hitler was a more simple murderer and aggressor. As to numbers, it indeed isn't clear which of these people were responsible for the deaths of the most millions, but in each case it was indeed millions who died. But To claim, as you do, that
Quote:
Stalin's crimes are just as appalling if not doubly so- as far as numbers go
is not justified by any available evidence,
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Old 13th December 2017, 05:07 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Look, I get that it was embarrassing for the Finns to be allied with the Nazis during WWII but pretending that it never happened doesn't make things better.
Quite.

It was a fairly tunnel-vision move, aimed at reclaiming what was lost the year before with little thought as to what that would actually mean in the grander scheme of things.

It's not too surprising (the Soviets were incredibly pushy in the year after the Winter War ended), but it's not something that should be white-washed.

Still, at least the "give back Karelia" lot are a real side-show, and have been for quite some time now.
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Old 13th December 2017, 05:24 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post

It is known Valdimir Putin is a Stalin admirer and I wouldn't be surprised if Russian agents are behind the revision of history campaign to paint Stalin as benign, giving the authors of articles and books innocuous sounding English names, like 'Edward Carr'.
uh...Edward Carr was a real person. If you want a Stalinist writer with a fake-sounding name, you should've gone with Grover Furr.
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Old 13th December 2017, 05:57 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
uh...Edward Carr was a real person. If you want a Stalinist writer with a fake-sounding name, you should've gone with Grover Furr.
Furr is a Carr too, believe it or not! See Grover FurrWP
Grover Carr Furr III (born April 3, 1944) is an American professor of Medieval English literature at Montclair State University, best known as an apologist of Joseph Stalin and the Soviet Union.
So maybe Putin did invent him, if his inventors are fans of the name Carr.
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Old 13th December 2017, 06:10 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Furr is a Carr too, believe it or not! See Grover FurrWP
Grover Carr Furr III (born April 3, 1944) is an American professor of Medieval English literature at Montclair State University, best known as an apologist of Joseph Stalin and the Soviet Union.
So maybe Putin did invent him, if his inventors are fans of the name Carr.
Well, you almost can't spell 'Comrade' without 'Carr'.
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Old 13th December 2017, 06:25 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Can you provide a few examples?
Have a list. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_war_crimes

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Oh, and Abaddon, whilst you are busy, perhaps you can tell us what Ireland did in the war.
I could, but that would be off topic and utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
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Old 13th December 2017, 07:05 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Famines might initially be the result of natural causes, but there is little excuse for millions to die of hunger. There have been terrible famines in Finland and they were exacerbated by Sweden refusing to send grain, except at grossly inflated prices (similar to the British Corn Laws contributing to the Irish potato famine, which also killed hundreds of thousands/millions).

The famines in Africa are virtually completely due to politics rather than a real lack of food, which can be imported.
I by and large agree with this (though I'm not familiar with the Finnish famines, but I don't doubt that could be the case). But you can't equate famine deaths due to flawed policy (and in the case of the USSR, a weak central state) with deliberate policies of extermination. In fact, YOU YOURSELF SAID SO. YOU said we should exclude famine.

And, of course, you still haven't provided figures. So let me remind you: even if we put famine deaths on Stalin, your assertion that he killed "twice as many" is still wrong, and I understand now, an attempt to exonerate Hitler.
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Old 13th December 2017, 07:13 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
And, of course, you still haven't provided figures. So let me remind you: even if we put famine deaths on Stalin, your assertion that he killed "twice as many" is still wrong, and I understand now, an attempt to exonerate Hitler.
In another thread Vixen claimed that Finland was twice the size of the UK. When I pointed out that it was only 1.4 times as large instead of saying "oops, I was exaggerating for effect", the claim was changed to twice the size of the UK minus Scotland.

There's a similar pattern developing here. When counter evidence is provided to the claim that Stalin killed twice as many as Hitler, the goalposts are shifted so that only certain kinds of deaths are attributable to Hitler (genocide carried out by Germans) whereas others such as civilian deaths attributable to the actions of the Axis and its allies are somehow the fault of the Allies.

Similarly, apparently Finland didn't fight against the Allies so long as you define Allies as "the countries allied against the Axis and countries allied to it minus those who came into contact with the Finns such as the Soviet Union or Allied service personnel fighting in that theatre"
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Old 13th December 2017, 07:22 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Can you provide a few examples?

Oh, and Abaddon, whilst you are busy, perhaps you can tell us what Ireland did in the war.
It joined forces as a co belligerent along with Germany in an attempt to recover the six counties removed from the Irish Free State by the United Kingdom as a result of the Partition of Ireland? Yes? No? it organised joint naval forces, along with the Germans and the Italians, to attack convoys carrying supplies to beleaguered Britain?

Or maybe it did this.

Last edited by Craig B; 13th December 2017 at 07:30 AM.
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Old 13th December 2017, 09:45 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
It joined forces as a co belligerent along with Germany in an attempt to recover the six counties removed from the Irish Free State by the United Kingdom as a result of the Partition of Ireland? Yes? No? it organised joint naval forces, along with the Germans and the Italians, to attack convoys carrying supplies to beleaguered Britain?

Or maybe it did this.
And - according to Wiki - at least 50,000 joined the British Army.
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Old 13th December 2017, 12:46 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Stalin's victims were mainly his "own people". More than 90% in each case.
I strongly object to my people of my country that Stali occupied being defined as ;killed as his own people'... Uh, you have left a nice getaway, 90 percent...

Stalin's death camps were in no way different, except that they spared on gas...

I have no intention to whitewash Hitler, and neither has Vixen. We were torn between two superpowers, but our aim was only one: independence. The Allies spat on so many countries (in- and outside- USSR) at the Yalta Conference. Our people hoped after 1944/45 that the UK and US would come and free us. What a stupid disillusion it was.

Vixen, keep up explaining. My blood boils, so I am no good at it.

And the beningn neutral Sweden's chauvinists. Your country extradited people to the USSR where they got killed. Something to be proud of, ah?
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Old 13th December 2017, 12:48 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
Stalin's death camps were in no way different, except that they spared on gas...
What death camps?

Quote:
I strongly object to my people of my country that Stali occupied being defined as ;killed as his own people'... Uh, you have left a nice getaway, 90 percent...
What country would this be, where Stalin "murdered" people in the sense Vixen is talking about? Remember, this excludes military deaths.
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Old 13th December 2017, 01:01 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
that the great famines of Ukraine and Central Asia were intentional?
No, they were not intentional. Stalin and his gang were, in fact, sossarna who wanted to make the world a better place... la la la
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Old 13th December 2017, 01:10 PM   #190
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all this Stalin was a guy 'whose intentions were good'...
He was an evil bastard maniac. to say the least. (and this 'he killed his own' - how crippled a mind needs to be to use it as an excuse?)
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Old 13th December 2017, 01:45 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
No, they were not intentional.
I'm glad that we agree on this point.
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Old 13th December 2017, 01:46 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
all this Stalin was a guy 'whose intentions were good'...
You use quotation marks, so I assume you can point to where in the thread someone has said Stalin had good intentions?
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Old 13th December 2017, 02:17 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
I strongly object to my people of my country that Stali occupied being defined as ;killed as his own people'... Uh, you have left a nice getaway, 90 percent...
You misunderstand. I put "Germans" and "own people" inside these inverted commas, because what is in question here is Hitler's definition of Germans, which was wrong, and Stalin's definition of his own people by which I mean the people that he ruled.

Most of Stalin's victims were his own subjects. most of Hitler's victims were outside Hitler's definition of Germans. I am not defending Stalin's claim to be the legitimate ruler of the many peoples who at that time were within the boundaries of the USSR. In fact I welcomed the disintegration of the USSR, and the independence of the nationalities which were previously under its dominion.
Quote:
Stalin's death camps were in no way different, except that they spared on gas.
Why did they spare on gas? Because Stalin was a merciful ruler? No, because the primary purpose of these camps was to provide slave labour.

In the extermination camps under the Nazis, most people who were brought to them did not even pass a single night there, before they were killed. Hitler's camps were intended to kill, and slave labour of inmates was a by-product, when the Nazis even troubled to exploit it.

Stalin's camps were intended as centres of slave labour, and the death of inmates was a by-product, which of course very often happened as no attention was paid to the wellbeing of the prisoners.

That is one important difference. Here is another. In the case of the Nazis, there was no pretence that the people killed in the camps were guilty of any crime. Jews were killed because they were Jews. But in the USSR the camps were claimed to be punitive, as if the people sent there had committed offences, and were being punished under law.

This "legalism" was a complete fiction, but the fact that Stalin needed such fabrications, and Hitler did not, is a significant indicator of the differences between the characteristics of the two regimes.

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Old 13th December 2017, 05:05 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Excuse me, but my source is far more reliable than your pontification. R W Cooper, 1947, paperback book about the Nuremburg Trials states very clearly that the vast majority of the German participants in the Nazi war (eight million were cardholding Nazi party members; multiply that by three or four to include family/household sharers), yet only a couple of hundred were ever hanged for war crimes.
LOL. A source from 1947 lists the number of death sentences? The last death sentences in the Netherlands for war crimes were pronounced in 1949, so your book can apparently engage in time travel for knowing that?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The rationale? It was ruled that as the Third Reich had made it quite legal to attack and kill Jews, Roma and so-called 'degenerates', then the average German was simply 'following orders' and obeying Reich laws.
You put things on their head, Nuremberg established, on the contrary, that "following orders", or "Befehl ist Befehl" can never be an excuse.

You must also have missed the trials of Ivan/John Demjanjuk and of Oskar Gröning, the "bookkeeper of Auschwitz", to name just two name more against smaller fish.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It was considered that the culprits were the army Generals and the 'men at the top'.

So, yes, by that criteria, ordinary Germans got away with exterminating six million Jews. A few thosuand got short two or three year jail sentences, but that was about it.

In other words, it was presumed it was legal for the entire nation to behave as terminators.
You're simply repeating your previous lies. It was not, and the more recent trials at the lower-level war criminals belies your claims. It was simply seen as not expedient to go after each and everyone. Have you any idea how much man years went into the major Nuremberg trials for the main perpetrators?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's such a schoolboy argument to jeer, the Gerries are the baddies and the Commies all egalitarian and correct.
You must have an endless supply of straw.

And your repeated conflation of NSDAP members and war criminals is also tiresome. Your claim that every of the 8 million NSDAP member automatically must have contributed to the Holocaust is laughable. Let's look at three cases.

First, Kurt Georg Kiesinger, who became Chancellor in 1966 in a Grand Coalition. There was controversy in Germany over having a former NSDAP member as chancellor, and so journalists dug into his past. This is what they found:
Quote:
During the controversies of 1966, the magazine Der Spiegel unearthed a Memorandum dated 7 November 1944 (six months before the end of the war in Europe) in which two colleagues denounced to SS chief Heinrich Himmler a conspiracy including Kiesinger that was allegedly propagating defeatism. They accused Kiesinger specifically of hampering anti-Jewish actions within his department.
Now please explain to me what war crimes Kiesinger has committed or what his part in the Holocaust was.

Second, Prince Bernhard of Lippe-Biesterfeld, who in 1937 married Princess Juliana of Orange and in 1948 became the Dutch Prince-Consort. He was not only a member of the NSDAP, but also of the SS Cavalry Corps and the SS Motor Corps. During the liberation of the Netherlands, he's commander-in-chief of the Dutch forces and represents the Netherlands when the German forces in the Netherland sign the surrender on 5 May 1945 in Wageningen. What's his war crime and what's his part in the Holocaust?

Third, Johann Müller from Mittelstadt, Thuringia. When in 1933 the Nazis take over town hall, he joins the NSDAP and this helps him to land the catering contract with town hall. By 1939, when the war breaks out, he has expanded his bakery because he now also supplies a local army barracks. Through his contacts in the party, he also manages to get his bakery declared kriegswichtig and he himself thus evades being drafted into active service. What's his war crime and what's his part in the Holocaust?
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Old 13th December 2017, 05:13 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
I strongly object to my people of my country that Stali occupied being defined as ;killed as his own people'... Uh, you have left a nice getaway, 90 percent...
Could you first inform us which country that is? I presume one of the three Baltic countries.

Originally Posted by kayle View Post
I have no intention to whitewash Hitler, and neither has Vixen.
It is blindingly obvious that Vixen tries to whitewash Hitler. She dilutes the guilt for the Holocaust amongst 80 million Germans equally. Moreover, she downplays the extent for the Holocaust.

Originally Posted by kayle View Post
We were torn between two superpowers, but our aim was only one: independence. The Allies spat on so many countries (in- and outside- USSR) at the Yalta Conference. Our people hoped after 1944/45 that the UK and US would come and free us. What a stupid disillusion it was.
If your people really hoped that, they were terminally stupid. How should the US and/or UK have done that?

Originally Posted by kayle View Post
And the beningn neutral Sweden's chauvinists. Your country extradited people to the USSR where they got killed. Something to be proud of, ah?
[ citation required ]
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Old 13th December 2017, 05:33 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, they went to Äänislinna (now called Petrograd) on Lake Ladoga - my 23-year old uncle was a fallen soldier at Maaselkä - to reclaim Karelia.
As anyone can see on that map I provided, Äänislinna lies beyond the 1939 border. That wsa not to "reclaim" Karelia, but to conquer East Karelia which had never been Finnish in the first place.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
LOL Given that the Finnish population was just 3.3 million and the Soviet Union 176 million, b'ain't never gonna happen, except in fascist pipedreams.
Now that you've claimed that Greater Finland was a fascist pipedream, and conceded that it was Finnish policy and war aim to conquer East Karelia, and maybe more, does this mean you're saying that the Finnish government in 1941 was fascist?
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Old 13th December 2017, 05:35 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, this was before they were established; in the very early days.
By all means, continue to not give any particulars on this alleged massacre by Norwegian Nazis among protesters, so that we cannot check that this is yet another claim that you've made up out of whole cloth.
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Old 13th December 2017, 05:37 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I didn't say Finnish Fascists were harmless, I was pointing out they did not have Nazi German ideals. They were a patriotic nationalistic movement and anti-communist. This is against a backdrop of independence from Russia dated from 1917. They were keen to establish a Finnish identity, which was neither Russian or Swedish.
Can you expand on the latter? Are you saying that the IKL thought that Finns who spoke Swedish or Russian as mother tongue are not real Finns, like Germans who speak Yiddish as mother tongue are no real Germans?
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Old 13th December 2017, 06:20 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Have a list. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_war_crimes

I could, but that would be off topic and utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
You had to go back >110 years to the Boer War...?

We understand your silence. It was a rhetorical question anyway.
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Old 13th December 2017, 06:22 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
I by and large agree with this (though I'm not familiar with the Finnish famines, but I don't doubt that could be the case). But you can't equate famine deaths due to flawed policy (and in the case of the USSR, a weak central state) with deliberate policies of extermination. In fact, YOU YOURSELF SAID SO. YOU said we should exclude famine.

And, of course, you still haven't provided figures. So let me remind you: even if we put famine deaths on Stalin, your assertion that he killed "twice as many" is still wrong, and I understand now, an attempt to exonerate Hitler.
How do you work that out, when I am merely citing the accepted establishment view?
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