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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Finland history

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Old 13th December 2017, 06:25 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
In another thread Vixen claimed that Finland was twice the size of the UK. When I pointed out that it was only 1.4 times as large instead of saying "oops, I was exaggerating for effect", the claim was changed to twice the size of the UK minus Scotland.

There's a similar pattern developing here. When counter evidence is provided to the claim that Stalin killed twice as many as Hitler, the goalposts are shifted so that only certain kinds of deaths are attributable to Hitler (genocide carried out by Germans) whereas others such as civilian deaths attributable to the actions of the Axis and its allies are somehow the fault of the Allies.

Similarly, apparently Finland didn't fight against the Allies so long as you define Allies as "the countries allied against the Axis and countries allied to it minus those who came into contact with the Finns such as the Soviet Union or Allied service personnel fighting in that theatre"
Under the old borders it probably was

Only people on this thread believe the Germans slaughtered more than the Russians.

No, there was no military action between the USA and Great Britain vs Finland.
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Old 13th December 2017, 06:29 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
And - according to Wiki - at least 50,000 joined the British Army.
Against how many millions living in the UK?

The Finnish 'Karelian Army' consisted of almost 500K men, in a population fewer than Wales.
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Old 13th December 2017, 06:33 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
I strongly object to my people of my country that Stali occupied being defined as ;killed as his own people'... Uh, you have left a nice getaway, 90 percent...

Stalin's death camps were in no way different, except that they spared on gas...

I have no intention to whitewash Hitler, and neither has Vixen. We were torn between two superpowers, but our aim was only one: independence. The Allies spat on so many countries (in- and outside- USSR) at the Yalta Conference. Our people hoped after 1944/45 that the UK and US would come and free us. What a stupid disillusion it was.

Vixen, keep up explaining. My blood boils, so I am no good at it.

And the beningn neutral Sweden's chauvinists. Your country extradited people to the USSR where they got killed. Something to be proud of, ah?
You are absolutely right, Kayle. You and me against the world, huh?

I have a couple of Estonian friends and a Latvian. Their countries are full of imported Russians sent by Stalin.

Ruined for ever more.
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Old 13th December 2017, 06:40 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
You misunderstand. I put "Germans" and "own people" inside these inverted commas, because what is in question here is Hitler's definition of Germans, which was wrong, and Stalin's definition of his own people by which I mean the people that he ruled.

Most of Stalin's victims were his own subjects. most of Hitler's victims were outside Hitler's definition of Germans. I am not defending Stalin's claim to be the legitimate ruler of the many peoples who at that time were within the boundaries of the USSR. In fact I welcomed the disintegration of the USSR, and the independence of the nationalities which were previously under its dominion. Why did they spare on gas? Because Stalin was a merciful ruler? No, because the primary purpose of these camps was to provide slave labour.

In the extermination camps under the Nazis, most people who were brought to them did not even pass a single night there, before they were killed. Hitler's camps were intended to kill, and slave labour of inmates was a by-product, when the Nazis even troubled to exploit it.

Stalin's camps were intended as centres of slave labour, and the death of inmates was a by-product, which of course very often happened as no attention was paid to the wellbeing of the prisoners.

That is one important difference. Here is another. In the case of the Nazis, there was no pretence that the people killed in the camps were guilty of any crime. Jews were killed because they were Jews. But in the USSR the camps were claimed to be punitive, as if the people sent there had committed offences, and were being punished under law.

This "legalism" was a complete fiction, but the fact that Stalin needed such fabrications, and Hitler did not, is a significant indicator of the differences between the characteristics of the two regimes.

Simply not so. Hundreds of thousands languished as prisoners. True many were sent immediately to the 'showers' and in the Einsatzkommando SS mobile units, people were executed in mobile vans, others locked inside a building and burnt en masse. There is no doubting the extra degree of unusual cruelty in the Nazi exterminations.

However, TubbaBubba wants to talk about numbers.
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Old 13th December 2017, 06:55 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
LOL. A source from 1947 lists the number of death sentences? The last death sentences in the Netherlands for war crimes were pronounced in 1949, so your book can apparently engage in time travel for knowing that?


You put things on their head, Nuremberg established, on the contrary, that "following orders", or "Befehl ist Befehl" can never be an excuse.

You must also have missed the trials of Ivan/John Demjanjuk and of Oskar Gröning, the "bookkeeper of Auschwitz", to name just two name more against smaller fish.


You're simply repeating your previous lies. It was not, and the more recent trials at the lower-level war criminals belies your claims. It was simply seen as not expedient to go after each and everyone. Have you any idea how much man years went into the major Nuremberg trials for the main perpetrators?


You must have an endless supply of straw.

And your repeated conflation of NSDAP members and war criminals is also tiresome. Your claim that every of the 8 million NSDAP member automatically must have contributed to the Holocaust is laughable. Let's look at three cases.

First, Kurt Georg Kiesinger, who became Chancellor in 1966 in a Grand Coalition. There was controversy in Germany over having a former NSDAP member as chancellor, and so journalists dug into his past. This is what they found:

Now please explain to me what war crimes Kiesinger has committed or what his part in the Holocaust was.

Second, Prince Bernhard of Lippe-Biesterfeld, who in 1937 married Princess Juliana of Orange and in 1948 became the Dutch Prince-Consort. He was not only a member of the NSDAP, but also of the SS Cavalry Corps and the SS Motor Corps. During the liberation of the Netherlands, he's commander-in-chief of the Dutch forces and represents the Netherlands when the German forces in the Netherland sign the surrender on 5 May 1945 in Wageningen. What's his war crime and what's his part in the Holocaust?

Third, Johann Müller from Mittelstadt, Thuringia. When in 1933 the Nazis take over town hall, he joins the NSDAP and this helps him to land the catering contract with town hall. By 1939, when the war breaks out, he has expanded his bakery because he now also supplies a local army barracks. Through his contacts in the party, he also manages to get his bakery declared kriegswichtig and he himself thus evades being drafted into active service. What's his war crime and what's his part in the Holocaust?
The date must have been the first publication date. The paperback, which I got secondhand, is pretty dog-eared, I still have it somewhere.

The generals and officers in the dock did try to use the defence, 'We don't recognise this court' and 'It was not illegal under the Third Reich'.

Whilst that was dimissed by the tribunal in their case, nonetheless it remains true that some 8 million Germans were active card-carrying members of the NSDAP. You only have to see old black and white footage to understand the German nation embraced Nazi ideology to their bosums.

Of course, there were pockets of dissent. Most were silent.

In effect, the entire German nation of that era has to take some blame, yet only a tiny tiny percentage of them were ever dragged before a court to explain themselves.

You cannot argue they 'didn't know what they were doing'.

You are the apologist for all these people who were card-carrying Nazis whom because they were never charged with any war crime, you can hold up as being 'OK [ex] Nazis, as today they are again part of the establishment'.

Rudy Nassauer a German Jew who escaped to England went back to Germany to visit and it tore him apart so much, he was shouting at people.

It may look benign to you but for those who lived through it, and I lived in a part of London which the government had given over an entire area of streets to displaced Jews, it continued to be a devastating experience even into the second and third generations. My best friend at school - who was typical - had lost grandparents and ones who survived were left blind. She attracted bullies as she was so sensitive she would cry over the slightest teasing.
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Old 13th December 2017, 07:08 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
By all means, continue to not give any particulars on this alleged massacre by Norwegian Nazis among protesters, so that we cannot check that this is yet another claim that you've made up out of whole cloth.
I have a newspaper clipping of that as whilst researching the 1939 - 1944 war era there were several heart-wrenching stories about the plight of the Norwegians and their amazing feats of bravery, I photocopied a couple of those, too whilst I was there.

So, Norway was occupied by the Nazis, Denmark was similarly occupied.

German troops land in Finland on their way to Leningrad, and you are knocking the Finns for forming an alliance to fight the guys in the East?

WWII was really a continuation of unfinished business from WWI.

Germany had helped out Finland against the Red uprising. the feeling amongst Finnish Generals (in particular, the ultra-conservative Mannerheim, a field marshall at the side of the old Czar) was to 'return the favour' when the Germans wanted to traverse Finland to get to Russia.

In retrospect, we can see the entire war was absolutely crazy on a mass scale and the two countries we can blame for that is (1) Germany and its aggressive deluded imperialism, and (2) the Soviet Union, with its international communism aims.

Finland was between a rock and a hard place, when you look at what was happening in Norway and Denmark, with the Swedes lying doggo, keeping their heads down. No help from anybody at all, other than volunteers and mercenary soldiers.
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Old 13th December 2017, 07:21 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Furr is a Carr too, believe it or not! See Grover FurrWP
Grover Carr Furr III (born April 3, 1944) is an American professor of Medieval English literature at Montclair State University, best known as an apologist of Joseph Stalin and the Soviet Union.
So maybe Putin did invent him, if his inventors are fans of the name Carr.
Hah, that's hilarious. I wonder if there's any relation?
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Old 13th December 2017, 07:26 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Can you expand on the latter? Are you saying that the IKL thought that Finns who spoke Swedish or Russian as mother tongue are not real Finns, like Germans who speak Yiddish as mother tongue are no real Germans?
Hark back to Elizabethan England. All official documents were in Latin. Thus, in recording people's names, the latinised version was given. For example, James became 'Jacobus' and Mary, 'Maria', etc.

Likewise when Finland was known as 'Ostland', as part of the Swedish empire between 1100 - 1809 (700 years) all official documents were in Swedish. If you look at my family tree, everyone before circa 1860 has an imputed Swedish name in the parish records of births, christenings, marriages and burials. There are no end of 'Gustav's and 'Henriks', although in the Finnish vernacular they would never have been known by those names, except amongst the Finns whose first language was Swedish. Then came 100 years of Czarist Russia rule as an autonomous duchy (still Finnish speaking, and still keeping up the Swedish for official documents until about 1860-ish).

Come 1917 when Lenin and Trotsky declared Finland independent (fully confident it would follow the Red uprising in Leningrad) as of course the Czars were no longer around.

So for the first time in 800 years, Finland became completely independent of both Sweden and Russia. People with Swedish names, changed them to Finnish ones, we had Sibelius launching a load of symphonies, capturing the so-called 'Finnish spirit', there was a great wave of nationalism and a search for identity.

So no, it wasn't an oppression of Swedish speakers - many of whom still speak Swedish today - nobody is banned from speaking it.

So not an analogy by any stretch of the imagination with Nazi Germans hating anything Jewish. Yiddish is a German dialect which borrowed much from the shtetl populations.

Given the bloody Civil War of 1918 between the Reds and the Whites - over 42K Finns killed each other within a few weeks - it is no big surprise people gravitated to the extremes of 'either' communism (and the Communist Party in Finland got 25% of the vote until surprisingly recently) or the other polar extreme of the IKL (the fascists).
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Old 13th December 2017, 07:33 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Hah, that's hilarious. I wonder if there's any relation?
Perhaps 'Carr' is a KGB cryptic code for 'USSR'.

I've cracked it!
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Old 13th December 2017, 07:50 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How do you work that out, when I am merely citing the accepted establishment view?
What is this "accepted establishment view" and WHAT IS YOUR SOURCE FOR IT?
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Old 13th December 2017, 08:36 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You had to go back >110 years to the Boer War...?

We understand your silence. It was a rhetorical question anyway.
You didn't read the list.
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Old 13th December 2017, 08:54 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You had to go back >110 years to the Boer War...?

We understand your silence. It was a rhetorical question anyway.
It's a lie. Abaddon cited incidences as recent as 2013.
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Old 13th December 2017, 10:50 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Under the old borders it probably was


That wasn't the claim and you know it. Why is it so impossible for you to admit that you were wrong or that you exaggerated for effect ?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Only people on this thread believe the Germans slaughtered more than the Russians.
Really ?

You made a a claim and were asked to back it up with actual evidence. Instead of doing so you have instead made various alternative claims and still failed to provide objective, quantitative, evidence.

That said, the claim regarding loss of life was an attempt to deflect from the fact that Finland, during WWII, was allied with Nazi Germany.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, there was no military action between the USA and Great Britain vs Finland.
Why are you wilfully ignoring the fact that the Soviet Union was one of the allied powers and that as a result Finland was at war with the allies and allied with Nazi Germany ?

Last edited by The Don; 13th December 2017 at 10:54 PM.
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Old 14th December 2017, 12:46 AM   #214
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I stated most people who were brought to them (Nazi death camps) did not even pass a single night there. You have responded
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Simply not so. Hundreds of thousands languished as prisoners.
Yes, and millions were summarily put to death.

Quote:
However, TubbaBubba wants to talk about numbers.
So do I. You have left out half of Hitler's victims. He murdered more than twice as many as the "six million" you claim.The Jews were not the only victims of Nazism.
It is estimated that as many as 15 million civilians were killed by this murderous and racist regime, including millions of Slavs and 'asiatics', 200,000 Gypsies and members of various other groups. Thousands of people, including Germans of African descent, were forcibly sterilised.
The Soviet camps were slave labour operations. The Nazi camps were not. From the main extermination centres virtually nobody survived at all.

Auschwitz-Birkenau
... Some of the new arrivals were inducted into the camp as registered prisoners, but the great majority were gassed immediately.

Auschwitz The SS men kept the people fated to die unaware of what awaited them. They were told that they were being sent to the camp, but that they first had to undergo disinfection and bathe. After the victims undressed, they were taken into the gas chamber, locked in, and killed with Zyklon B gas.
This account is in the Yad Vashem website. You are a friend of Yad Vashem, and have been there. You are not a Hitler apologist, except that you reduce the number of his victims by a factor of two and a half, from 15 millions to six millions. So we do indeed need to "look at the numbers". Yad Vashem
When transports arrived at Sobibor, Treblinka, and Belzec, a few of the victims were chosen to join Sonderkommando units, while a few others with various skills were selected to work in repair shops which served the camp staff. The rest of the victims were sent on an assembly line, where they were stripped of their possessions and clothing and their hair was cut. They were then pushed into the gas chambers ...
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Old 14th December 2017, 12:51 AM   #215
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Some more descriptions of the extermination camps.Treblinka
was a true death factory. Immediately after getting off the train, people went to the gas chambers. There was no tattooing, no huts with wooden bunks, no louses, not even any harsh labour. From the start, three gas chambers were in operation, with dimensions of 4 by 4 metres and a capacity of 300 to 500 people an hour. In September 1942, a further ten gas chambers were added, with a much greater capacity. They allowed between 1 000 and 2 000 people to be put to death in an hour ... The total number of people murdered in Treblinka is estimated at 870 000.
Belzec The preparations for and course of the extermination process were similar to those in Sobibor and Treblinka ... Altogether, 600 000 people were murdered in the Bełżec camp during a period of seven months. Most of them were Jewish, but there were also several thousand Roma.
(Survivors 1.)
Sobobor. After a transport arrived at the camp, the deportees were told that they had come to a transit camp in which they had to undergo a disinfection procedure before being taken to the labour camp. They had to take off all their things, and were driven naked into the alleged „showers“. For the sick and those incapable of walking independently, the railway was extended right up to the gas chambers ... In total, about 250 000 people were murdered at Sobibor.
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Old 14th December 2017, 12:52 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Originally Posted by Craig B
In the extermination camps under the Nazis, most people who were brought to them did not even pass a single night there, before they were killed.
Simply not so. Hundreds of thousands languished as prisoners.
Please provide a link for those "hundreds of thousands" prisoners in, e.g., Sobibor.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
However, TubbaBubba wants to talk about numbers.
Really? You started this numbers game.
"Wer sich die Suppe eingebrockt hat, soll sie auch auslöffeln"
(can't think of an English equivalent, but then, you're an ace at German aren't you?)
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Old 14th December 2017, 12:57 AM   #217
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Anyway, what is the "numbers game" all about ?

Is Vixen suggesting that because Stalin was so much worse than Hitler (based on spurious numbers accumulated over a much longer "career") that Finland was right to side with the Axis powers ? Should we also infer that the other Allied powers, instead of uniting with Stalin to defeat Hitler, should have united with Hitler to defeat Stalin because he was so much worse ?

Regardless of the body counts for Hitler and Stalin, does any of this change the simple historical (but seemingly very uncomfortable for Vixen) fact that Finland was allied with the Axis powers during WWII ?
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Old 14th December 2017, 01:00 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Really? You started this numbers game.
"Wer sich die Suppe eingebrockt hat, soll sie auch auslöffeln"
(can't think of an English equivalent, but then, you're an ace at German aren't you?)
I'd think it was "You've made your bed, you lie in it" but the German is far more colourful
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Old 14th December 2017, 01:01 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I with the Swedes lying doggo, keeping their heads down. No help from anybody at all, other than volunteers and mercenary soldiers.
You mean the doggo Swedes should have been helping to starve the people of Leningrad in order to combat international communism?

What should Sweden have been helping helping Finland to do, in the Continuation War? Should the Swedes have become co-belligerents of the Nazis in the war against international communism, like for example the Spanish Blue Division helping the Germans?
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Old 14th December 2017, 01:23 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Really? You started this numbers game.
"Wer sich die Suppe eingebrockt hat, soll sie auch auslöffeln"
(can't think of an English equivalent, but then, you're an ace at German aren't you?)
"As you reap, so you will sow" or "You make your bed the way you'll lie in it", I guess?
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Old 14th December 2017, 04:18 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Why are you wilfully ignoring the fact that the Soviet Union was one of the allied powers and that as a result Finland was at war with the allies and allied with Nazi Germany ?
It's a little bit more complicated than that.
For example, the USA was never at war with Finland.

But your point mostly stands.
Just picking the nits.
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Old 14th December 2017, 04:29 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
It's a little bit more complicated than that.
For example, the USA was never at war with Finland.

But your point mostly stands.
Just picking the nits.
Anomalies lie that are common enough. From 1941 to 1945, the USSR wasn't at war with Japan. Only after the nuclear bombing in August 1945 did the USSR invade the Japanese puppet state of Manchuria.
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Old 14th December 2017, 04:32 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
"As you reap, so you will sow" or "You make your bed the way you'll lie in it", I guess?
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I'd think it was "You've made your bed, you lie in it" but the German is far more colourful
Thank you both. The Don, I think the Dutch version is even more colourful: "wie zijn kont heeft gebrand moet op de blaren zitten" (who's burnt his arse must sit on the blisters).
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Old 14th December 2017, 04:32 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
It's a little bit more complicated than that.
For example, the USA was never at war with Finland.

But your point mostly stands.
Just picking the nits.
If the claim was that Finland was not at war with the US then that would stand.

I'm not entirely sure what Vixen's actual claim is any more, I think last I knew it was that if the Allies were defined as only the UK and US (ignoring all the other counties and of course most ridiculously, the Soviet Union) then Finland didn't fight the Allies. Even that is untrue, the UK declared war on Finland in 1941 and there were UK (and Empire) service personnel active in the Russian theatre.

It's like saying that so long as beef isn't classified as a meat then I'm vegetarian apart from all the lamb and chicken I eat
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Old 14th December 2017, 04:35 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Anomalies lie that are common enough. From 1941 to 1945, the USSR wasn't at war with Japan. Only after the nuclear bombing in August 1945 did the USSR invade the Japanese puppet state of Manchuria.
In the category "picking nits": The USSR did so 3 months after VE Day, to the minute, as agreed in Potsdam. And that happened to be in between the two nuclear bombs.
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Old 14th December 2017, 04:48 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I'm not entirely sure what Vixen's actual claim is any more...
Quite.
It's a bit of a rambling mess, but seemingly with an unblemished Finland in the middle.
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Old 14th December 2017, 04:49 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
It's a little bit more complicated than that.
For example, the USA was never at war with Finland.
Índeed, the USA didn't declare war on Finland, but they threatened to unless the Finns called off their offensives beyond the 1939 border, like Arctic Fox which was directed at capturing the Murmansk Railroad. Both the UK (Empire) and the US had a stake in that road keeping open.
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Old 14th December 2017, 07:07 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Under the old borders it probably was

Only people on this thread believe the Germans slaughtered more than the Russians.

No, there was no military action between the USA and Great Britain vs Finland.
As The Don already predicted, you swap one false claim for another.

Raid on Kirkenes and Petsamo
Quote:
The raid on Kirkenes and Petsamo (Operation EF) took place on 30 July 1941 during the Second World War. The British Fleet Air Arm launched this unsuccessful raid from the aircraft carriers HMS Victorious and Furious to inflict damage on merchant vessels owned by Germany and Finland and to show support for Britain's new ally, the Soviet Union.
Do you still maintain the UK did not engage in military action against Finland?
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Old 14th December 2017, 07:34 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Only people on this thread believe the Germans slaughtered more than the Russians.
To assess that, you need to know how many people were killed by the Germans and by the USSR.

You say six million victims of Nazi atrocity. I say fifteen millions, including six million Jews, plus many others. We don't agree within a factor of two and a half times! What is the value of your opinion about who killed most in that case? What figure do you now propose, and what is its source?

This is from the right wing (not pro-communist) UK newspaper, the Daily Telegraph. I'm going with the lowest figure in their range of estimates published by Washington Holocaust Museum (not a communist source)
The new figures of 15 to 20 million, which have astonished some Holocaust historians, come after thirteen years of painstaking study at Washington's Holocaust Memorial Museum. Historians at the museum brought together and studied the huge amount, and often disparate, files and research on the Holocaust.
ETA The US Holocaust Museum list of victims by category may be seen here.

Last edited by Craig B; 14th December 2017 at 08:20 AM.
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Old 14th December 2017, 08:13 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Only people on this thread believe the Germans slaughtered more than the Russians.
How does it work? How do you manage to actively sustain obviously false statements like that, when faced with overwhelming evidence and unable to provide any to the contrary?
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Old 14th December 2017, 08:30 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How do you work that out, when I am merely citing the accepted establishment view?
First, provide references that support this is the "establishment view".

Second, we're asking for your opinion. Three concrete questions:
(1) do you still maintain that the Nazis only murdered 6 million people?
(2) how many of those were Jews?
(3) what other categories of people did they murder?
And no long diatribes, just three one-sentence answers to those questions.
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Old 14th December 2017, 11:07 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You had to go back >110 years to the Boer War...?
Oh perfidious Albion, who invaded the independent Boer republics and then holed up the innocent Boer women and children in concentration camps where they died in droves.

Finland would never do that. Or?

East Karelian concentration camps:
Quote:
East Karelian concentration camps were special internment camps in the areas of the Soviet Union occupied by the Finnish military administration during the Continuation War. These camps were organized by the armed forces supreme commander Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim. The camps were intended to hold camp detainees for future exchange with the Finnic population from the rest of Russia.
[...]
The two largest groups were 6,000 Russian refugees and 3,000 inhabitants from the southern bank of the River Svir who were forcibly evacuated because of the close proximity of the front line. Of these interned civilians 4,361[7] perished mainly due to malnourishment, 90 percent of them during the spring and summer of 1942.
That's a death rate of nearly 50%.

But, but - we've been assured by Vixen that Finland never went beyond the 1939 border, and that a "Greater Finland" is only a fascist pipedream. They would never do such a thing, least of all the national hero Mannerheim. Right?

The rabbit hole goes deeper. This so-called democratic government of Finland that never aligned with fascist thought and only just so happened to fight the same enemy as the Nazis, published a book with the title "Finnish Lebensraum".
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Old 14th December 2017, 11:17 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Oh perfidious Albion, who invaded the independent Boer republics and then holed up the innocent Boer women and children in concentration camps where they died in droves.

Finland would never do that. Or?

East Karelian concentration camps:

That's a death rate of nearly 50%.

But, but - we've been assured by Vixen that Finland never went beyond the 1939 border, and that a "Greater Finland" is only a fascist pipedream. They would never do such a thing, least of all the national hero Mannerheim. Right?

The rabbit hole goes deeper. This so-called democratic government of Finland that never aligned with fascist thought and only just so happened to fight the same enemy as the Nazis, published a book with the title "Finnish Lebensraum".
Finnish prison camps with high mortality rate? I for one am shocked.
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Old 14th December 2017, 01:56 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
It's a lie. Abaddon cited incidences as recent as 2013.
It would appear that Vixen, like Jabba, has a policy of read it only the first line as the entirety. Colour me surprised. Given that I have family directly involved in multiple ways, I kinda know just a little more than Vixen does.Some of my immediate family were active counter-espionage during WWII. Vixen is proposing utter BS ideas. I had an uncle (great-uncle to be precise) whose job it was to find gestapo agents. What makes that interesting is that he married his Home Office counterpart after the war and moved to Kent. And this was a man involved with 1916 rebellion. The brits rightly knew that when it came to covert ops, we were fare more experienced than they thanks to the whole 800 years malarkey. This is why we have things like German Cemeteries. The crashed Nazis were interned for the duration. The crashed Allies were quietly handed over the border no questions asked. And what did the Finns do? aided with nazism
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Old 14th December 2017, 04:00 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post


That wasn't the claim and you know it. Why is it so impossible for you to admit that you were wrong or that you exaggerated for effect ?



Really ?

You made a a claim and were asked to back it up with actual evidence. Instead of doing so you have instead made various alternative claims and still failed to provide objective, quantitative, evidence.

That said, the claim regarding loss of life was an attempt to deflect from the fact that Finland, during WWII, was allied with Nazi Germany.



Why are you wilfully ignoring the fact that the Soviet Union was one of the allied powers and that as a result Finland was at war with the allies and allied with Nazi Germany ?
You are incredibly ignorant about military history. Britain declared war on Finland 5 Dec 1941. So in which way was Finland 'attacking the allies'? It was rather the other way round.

Hitler's Operation Barbarossa plan came into operation June 1941, and took the Soviets completely by surprise.

Are you some kind of Little Englander who thinks Finland some 1,000 miles away would care a darn what some puffed up English politician has to say?

Incidentally, on hearing that Britain had declared war, one Finnish officer is said to have quipped, 'What colour is the British cockade?'

This is because Finnish soldiers collected Russian cockades as trophies.

Splutter into your G&T.
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Old 14th December 2017, 04:03 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
It would appear that Vixen, like Jabba, has a policy of read it only the first line as the entirety. Colour me surprised. Given that I have family directly involved in multiple ways, I kinda know just a little more than Vixen does.Some of my immediate family were active counter-espionage during WWII. Vixen is proposing utter BS ideas. I had an uncle (great-uncle to be precise) whose job it was to find gestapo agents. What makes that interesting is that he married his Home Office counterpart after the war and moved to Kent. And this was a man involved with 1916 rebellion. The brits rightly knew that when it came to covert ops, we were fare more experienced than they thanks to the whole 800 years malarkey. This is why we have things like German Cemeteries. The crashed Nazis were interned for the duration. The crashed Allies were quietly handed over the border no questions asked. And what did the Finns do? aided with nazism
Mid to late 1943 the Irish began sending the Allied internee back but prior to that they were kept along with the Germans at Curragh Camp. US personnel were always released from day one due to a special arrangement between the two governments
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Old 14th December 2017, 04:11 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Anyway, what is the "numbers game" all about ?

Is Vixen suggesting that because Stalin was so much worse than Hitler (based on spurious numbers accumulated over a much longer "career") that Finland was right to side with the Axis powers ? Should we also infer that the other Allied powers, instead of uniting with Stalin to defeat Hitler, should have united with Hitler to defeat Stalin because he was so much worse ?

Regardless of the body counts for Hitler and Stalin, does any of this change the simple historical (but seemingly very uncomfortable for Vixen) fact that Finland was allied with the Axis powers during WWII ?
Don't put words in my mouth. Germany and Finland were co-Belligerents against USSR. The Germans had a looney Nazi aim, the Finns had a gripe and wanted to claim back land taken from them (and incidentally, the USA refused to recognise USSR's 'new' Finnish border).

Why do you persist in claiming Finland supported Nazi ideology when they did not. In fact, Finland was and is a Western democratic country and is largely Centre Party.

So quit the schoolboy hyperbole.
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Old 14th December 2017, 04:13 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
You mean the doggo Swedes should have been helping to starve the people of Leningrad in order to combat international communism?

What should Sweden have been helping helping Finland to do, in the Continuation War? Should the Swedes have become co-belligerents of the Nazis in the war against international communism, like for example the Spanish Blue Division helping the Germans?

No. The Swedes should have helped out the Norwegians, Danes and Finns .
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Old 14th December 2017, 04:15 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Anomalies lie that are common enough. From 1941 to 1945, the USSR wasn't at war with Japan. Only after the nuclear bombing in August 1945 did the USSR invade the Japanese puppet state of Manchuria.
For the record, the famous Stalin - Roosevelt - Churchill conference at Yalta wasn't even until 1945.
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Old 14th December 2017, 04:19 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
To assess that, you need to know how many people were killed by the Germans and by the USSR.

You say six million victims of Nazi atrocity. I say fifteen millions, including six million Jews, plus many others. We don't agree within a factor of two and a half times! What is the value of your opinion about who killed most in that case? What figure do you now propose, and what is its source?

This is from the right wing (not pro-communist) UK newspaper, the Daily Telegraph. I'm going with the lowest figure in their range of estimates published by Washington Holocaust Museum (not a communist source)
The new figures of 15 to 20 million, which have astonished some Holocaust historians, come after thirteen years of painstaking study at Washington's Holocaust Memorial Museum. Historians at the museum brought together and studied the huge amount, and often disparate, files and research on the Holocaust.
ETA The US Holocaust Museum list of victims by category may be seen here.
The figure usually quoted is 'six million Jews', and that is all I was referring to.

I see no point in hyperbole. Let's state the correct figures.
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