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Old 15th December 2017, 07:04 PM   #281
Vixen
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
So you joined the Nazis against the USSR (one of the Allies) in June, and you're surprised Britain declares war on you several months later?
And you have the temerity to claim that the allies started it?

Hint: 'Allies' does not mean 'good guys'.
You had your reasons to join forces with Hitler, Russia was a bigger threat for an independant Finland. It's unfortunate, but it was something you felt you needed to do. Every country has made questionable decisions at one time or another.
Just don't try to whitewash your history.
There is nothing to whitewash. Imagine if Canada partitioned off New York and declared it Canadian, after having attacked you, and then (say) being two-hundred times your size, made it a condition of peace New York was theirs?

Wouldn't the USA feel fully justified in regaining New York if the opportunity came up?

Let's face it, alliances are made. Hint: The Canadian French and Indian War.
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Last edited by Vixen; 15th December 2017 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 15th December 2017, 07:10 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Britain and France declared war on Germany on September 3 1939, so in which way was Germany attacking the Allies? Hitler comes out of your posts as a quite attractive person really. You reduce the number of his victims by a factor of two and a half, and now you are using a definition of aggression which 1) is absurd, and 2) absolves him of being the aggressor in his war against the Entente powers.
AFAIAC Hitler was one of the greatest abominations - if not the greatest - history has ever seen.

However, I am not prepared to exaggerate the numbers murdered by his regime, even though it would be hard to do so, just because it serves to emphasise his evilness.

In history it is better to try to be accurate than grandiose.
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Old 15th December 2017, 07:13 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
No where in the post you are replying to here was any mention made of Stalin.

What was addressed was your unwillingness to admit that there were non-Jewish victims of the holocaust. You have persisted in that denial. You continue to claim that there were only 6 million killed, which indeed ignores the 9 million non-Jewish victims.

Someone who denies 9 million victims of the holocaust is indeed best termed a holocaust denier.

This fact has nothing to do with your claims about the number of people murdered by Stalin.
Factual citation of this 'nine million non-Jews' and 'six million Jews' killed by the Third Reich regime?

Of which, according to ddt 'only' 250K Jews were murdered in Germany.
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Old 15th December 2017, 07:19 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
AFAIAC Hitler was one of the greatest abominations - if not the greatest - history has ever seen.

However, I am not prepared to exaggerate the numbers murdered by his regime, even though it would be hard to do so, just because it serves to emphasise his evilness.

In history it is better to try to be accurate than grandiose.
OK, you've convinced me. You really are a holocaust denier.
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Old 15th December 2017, 07:23 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
So let us look again at the claim that Stalin killed more than 60 million people In a discussion, started by you, about whether Hitler or Stalin killed most people you quote a figure of more than 60 million for Stalin's victims, and six million for Hitler. Although you say you don't really care how many Hitler killed. Now let us consider whether Stalin killed sixty million plus people.

On 26 January 1934 Joseph Stalin reported to the 17th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party

Everybody says that the material situation of workers has dramatically improved ... But this has led the population to breed much faster than in the old days ... Now every year we have a population growth of three million souls. It means that every year we grow as much as the whole of Finland. [Everybody laughs.] ”
Combining his reports, one could have expected to have a population of about 180 million in 1937
The demographers expected about 177 million. When the Census count was made in January 1937
it soon became obvious that the final enumeration would be little more than 162 million people. The worst disagreement between the expected and the obtained data were in Kazakhstan, Ukraine, North Caucasus and the Volga region, the areas that were the strongest hit by the Soviet famine of 1932-1934
That indicates several million famine deaths, and additionally several million fewer births following reduced fertility caused by the famine and associated social disruption, including forced migration and exile.

That is the best measurement we have of Stalin's biggest crime. Millions dead on account of famine and repression undertaken to attain state control of agriculture, and millions more who might have been born but weren't.

However, tell me if Stalin killed sixty million in a few years, out of a total population of just over 160 million. Is that possible? No it's not. And your source doesn't say it happened! Read your own cited words.
In his book Red Holocaust, Steven Rosefielde argues that communism's internal contradictions "caused to be killed" approximately 60 million people and perhaps tens of millions more, and that this "Red Holocaust" – the peacetime mass killings and other related crimes against humanity perpetrated by Communist leaders such as Joseph Stalin, Kim Il Sung, Mao Zedong, Ho Chi Minh and Pol Pot.
Together, these people ruled over more than a billion subjects. Rosefielde is not saying that Stalin killed more than 60 million out of 162 million. He is saying that, world wide, Communism's internal contradictions caused that number to be killed, which is a rational statement, since the vast bulk of the deaths were not direct murder, but famine caused by a stubborn and erroneous policy of land tenure and agricultural procurement, certainly criminal in that it was pursued without regard to human cost, even when the leaders in question knew that it was having fatal consequences.
The '60 million' is what Red Holocaust, Steven Rosefielde argues in his book and includes Pol Pot and Ho Chi Minh. I quoted that to illustrate that anyone can find figures on the internet seeming to prove extreme numbers.

I wouldn't be surprised if Rosefielde is a rabid anti-Communist or has some kind of sectarian agenda.

Just because some author or other believes, or writes, 'the communists killed 60m', or 'Hitler killed 15m', it doesn't then make it true.

I prefer to listen to the moderate establishment view.

As for the argument 'famine is not direct murder' but caused by the internal machinations of regional policy and edicts from the Central Committee, whereas someone who starves to death in a Third Reich concentration camp is 'directly murdered', brings into sharp focus the odiousness of comparison.

Is being sent into exile in the Siberian gulag for life better or worse than being shot at dawn? Who can assess such a call?
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Old 15th December 2017, 07:29 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
OK, you've convinced me. You really are a holocaust denier.
Logical fallacy: ad hominem.

Your scurrilous claim is unfounded and unwarranted. Based on the fact I fail to jump to agreement with you in your opinion, 'Stalin killed fewer than Hitler', when that is your straw man in the first place.
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Old 15th December 2017, 07:30 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I prefer to listen to the moderate establishment view.
Care to cite this moderate establishment view?
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Old 15th December 2017, 07:54 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Co-belligerent is the Newspeak official term
.

FTFY
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Old 15th December 2017, 09:05 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Care to cite this moderate establishment view?

Here is a citation from wikipedia:

Quote:
Many historians have suggested that Stalin was responsible for death total of around 20 million, citing much higher victim totals from executions, Gulag camps, deportations and other causes.[48] Simon Sebag Montefiore suggested that Stalin was ultimately responsible for the deaths of between 20 and 25 million people.[49]. British-Polish historian Norman Davies suggested that Stalin was ultimately responsible for at least 50 million victims.[21] In his most recent edition of The Great Terror (2007), Conquest states that while exact numbers may never be known with complete certainty, at least 15 million people were killed "by the whole range of Soviet regime's terrors".[50] Rudolph Rummel maintains that the earlier higher victim total estimates are correct, although he includes those killed by the government of the Soviet Union in other Eastern European countries as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number..._Joseph_Stalin

I take on board that Timothy Snyder* believes it was far fewer and that the Germans killed eleven million non-Jews and six million Jews. That is his view [albeit after much research].

Problem with the modern Russian statistics is whether you can trust them. They are masters of revisionism of history. For example, Russia claimed it was wasn't Mendel who discovered the theory of genetics but some sundry Russian, ditto for all sorts of other things.

*We can see Snyder is not averse to bending the facts when he writes:

Quote:
Hitler came to power with the intention of eliminating the Jews from Europe; the war in the east showed that this could be achieved by mass killing. Within weeks of the attack by Germany (and its Finnish, Romanian, Hungarian, Italian, and other allies) on the USSR,
Insinuating that Finland had 'the intention of eliminating the Jews from Europe' by including it in the same subclause and citing Romania, Italy and Hungary - fascist regimes - in the same breath.

So, the reader should beware.
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Last edited by Vixen; 15th December 2017 at 09:11 PM.
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Old 15th December 2017, 09:12 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
.

FTFY
Sorry to bitterly disappoint you, but it is old speak.

Co-Belligerent.

Sorry if you don't like the bald statement of fact.
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Old 16th December 2017, 12:12 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Factual citation of this 'nine million non-Jews' and 'six million Jews' killed by the Third Reich regime?

Of which, according to ddt 'only' 250K Jews were murdered in Germany.
You mean apart from the citation you were already given by TubbaBlubba:

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
For the numbers on Nazi Germany, I guess it's simplest to cite Evans' Third Reich trilogy. In addition to the 5.5-6 million Jewish victims of the Holocaust, three million ethnic Poles were killed as part of Generalplan Ost, which sought to exterminate much of the Slav population. In addition to the Poles, millions of Ukrainians, Soviet PoW:s, Belarusians, and Serbs were killed as part of this extermination policy. Adding to that the various misc. persecuted groups (Romani, Sinti, Homosexuals, Freemasons...) we end up with a number between 11 million (conservative, excluding summary execution of POW:s for instance), and it goes over 15 million, depending on estimates and who we choose to include.

Those are similar numbers to those listed in this wikipedia article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims

Do you have any reason to dispute those numbers? Do you have a cite to offer that supports your total of 6 million killed?
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Old 16th December 2017, 01:11 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There is nothing to whitewash. Imagine if [snip]
That wasn't the point of my post.
You claimed Britain declared war on Finland for no reason and launched into an anti-British rant, claiming they were the real attackers... And in the same post you said that Finland joined forces with Hitler months before Britain declared war. And now you're ignoring that and just replying to the last sentence of my post...
How hypocritical.
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Old 16th December 2017, 02:18 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
AFAIAC Hitler was one of the greatest abominations - if not the greatest - history has ever seen.

However, I am not prepared to exaggerate the numbers murdered by his regime, even though it would be hard to do so, just because it serves to emphasise his evilness.

In history it is better to try to be accurate than grandiose.
I'm glad you now attach importance to accuracy. Previously you disparaged it in favour of a different principle
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is just a figure of speech, based on the heuristic figures thrown about that the Germans 'killed 6 million', and Stalin 'killed 20 million'
Which do you think best: "accuracy", or "figures of speech based on heuristic figures thrown about"?

Because these are not the same thing at all. The thrown about figure of six million deaths at Nazi hands is between two and a half and three times too small, according to the U.S. Holocaust Museum estimates, as I have shown you. You have cited 20 and 60 millions as the total of Stalin's victims, and I don't really know which figure you prefer.

The bulk of Stalin's total includes mainly famine victims. Personally I would make Stalin responsible for them because it was his economic policies that (at the very least) exacerbated the famine to the point of disaster. But if he could have dispossessed the peasants of their land and grain stores without killing them, I'm sure he would have done so. The attitude to population he promotes in Soviet Census (1937)WP I have already cited, indicates this.

The deaths in the purges and of political prisoners executed and murdered in the camps are plainly Stalin's direct responsibility, his Holocaust. The murders of political opponents or former ruling social classes in the Baltic countries, partitioned Poland, and in Bessarabia and Bukovina, annexed in 1940, are Stalin's doing also, without qualification; as are the myriad deaths suffered by the nations exiled by him to the East: Crimean Tatars, Volga Germans, Chechens and others. All these are not easy to quantify, as the crimes were committed deep in Soviet territory, and in great secrecy. But millions died: that is clear.

What is far from clear is that he was twice as bad as Hitler, to whose crimes we must add those suffered in the aggressive wars he launched, which are almost beyond counting.

Compare these two tyrants' behaviour in Poland, which at different times they each ruled. Hitler killed masses of people on grounds merely of their ethnicity, murdered the former elite groups and intellectuals, annexed much of the country and settled it with German colonists; and turned the rest into a German-ruled dominion. Stalin exploited Poland economically, murdered many political opponents, falsified election results and installed an oppressive client regime, but refrained from genocide.

He annexed parts of Poland in the East, but he also compensated Poland with chunks of former German territory in the West. These dictators behaved very differently there, and elsewhere in their respective empires. The result? Hitler's empire collapsed at once. Stalin's endured for more than forty years.
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Old 16th December 2017, 02:42 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I'm glad you now attach importance to accuracy. Previously you disparaged it in favour of a different principle Which do you think best: "accuracy", or "figures of speech based on heuristic figures thrown about"?

Because these are not the same thing at all. The thrown about figure of six million deaths at Nazi hands is between two and a half and three times too small, according to the U.S. Holocaust Museum estimates, as I have shown you. You have cited 20 and 60 millions as the total of Stalin's victims, and I don't really know which figure you prefer.

The bulk of Stalin's total includes mainly famine victims. Personally I would make Stalin responsible for them because it was his economic policies that (at the very least) exacerbated the famine to the point of disaster. But if he could have dispossessed the peasants of their land and grain stores without killing them, I'm sure he would have done so. The attitude to population he promotes in Soviet Census (1937)WP I have already cited, indicates this.

The deaths in the purges and of political prisoners executed and murdered in the camps are plainly Stalin's direct responsibility, his Holocaust. The murders of political opponents or former ruling social classes in the Baltic countries, partitioned Poland, and in Bessarabia and Bukovina, annexed in 1940, are Stalin's doing also, without qualification; as are the myriad deaths suffered by the nations exiled by him to the East: Crimean Tatars, Volga Germans, Chechens and others. All these are not easy to quantify, as the crimes were committed deep in Soviet territory, and in great secrecy. But millions died: that is clear.

What is far from clear is that he was twice as bad as Hitler, to whose crimes we must add those suffered in the aggressive wars he launched, which are almost beyond counting.

Compare these two tyrants' behaviour in Poland, which at different times they each ruled. Hitler killed masses of people on grounds merely of their ethnicity, murdered the former elite groups and intellectuals, annexed much of the country and settled it with German colonists; and turned the rest into a German-ruled dominion. Stalin exploited Poland economically, murdered many political opponents, falsified election results and installed an oppressive client regime, but refrained from genocide.

He annexed parts of Poland in the East, but he also compensated Poland with chunks of former German territory in the West. These dictators behaved very differently there, and elsewhere in their respective empires. The result? Hitler's empire collapsed at once. Stalin's endured for more than forty years.
And Hitler was the one that started the war. Let's not forget this one. Every death resulting from that decision is on his head as well.

As murderous as Stalin was, he still didn't equal the industrial type of killing of the Nazis and the fact that most of the fighting and dying in Europe occurred, because Hitler attacked other countries.
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Old 16th December 2017, 04:22 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Co-belligerent is the official term.

The word 'alliance', as I said, is all a matter of degree. You could say the UK was allied with Germany as per its Royal Family.
You could say that, and you'd be as wrong about that as pretty much everything else you've said in this thread.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is meaningless in itself.

Simply saying Germany allied with Finland to attack USSR doesn't tell you much about the inherent nature of the alliance.
And yet here we are with the indisputable truth that Finland was allied to the Nazis against the Allies - something you seem determined to gloss over.

I get that it's embarrassing, and no country wants such a taint on their creation myth, but there you are, it happened. No amount of weasel words can hide the truth and subsequent forays into body counts (presumably to justify one's country allying itself to the Nazis as opposed to the Allies) and so on does have more than a whiff of apologia about it.
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Old 16th December 2017, 08:07 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
... Simon Sebag Montefiore suggested that Stalin was ultimately responsible for the deaths of between 20 and 25 million people.[49]. British-Polish historian Norman Davies suggested that Stalin was ultimately responsible for at least 50 million victims.[21] In his most recent edition of The Great Terror (2007), Conquest states that while exact numbers may never be known with complete certainty, at least 15 million people were killed "by the whole range of Soviet regime's terrors".
Snyder says, and his view is consistent with that of the US Holocaust Museum, that Hitler killed six million Jews and eleven million non Jews. Do you accept these figures or not? That's twice you've been given them, and they are, as you admit, the fruit of "much research"

You then disparage Snyder as a liar by citing him stating that Finland was an ally of Germany, and that Hitler concluded from his invasion of the USSR that Jews could be disposed of by mass murder. Finland was indeed an ally of Germany, but did not persecute Jews. I have cited evidence of both statements, but here's more, from the vehemently right wing UK newspaper, the Daily Telegraph.
The alliance between Hitler and the race he vowed to annihilate — the only instance of Jews fighting for Germany’s allies — is one of the most extraordinary aspects of the Second World War, and yet hardly anyone, including many Finns, know anything about it.
It was in plain reality Hitler's invasion of the USSR that convinced him Jews could be entirely annihilated, and Snyder is not accusing Finland of participating in the Holocaust. No fair reading of Snyder's words could make them imply that.

Now tell us plainly. You have been given good grounds for accepting a figure of 15 to 20 million Holocaust victims, including 6 million Jews. Do you accept this? You have been given the sources. Or do you reject this figure? Express yourself plainly please, when you respond.

Some of Hitler's allies were more complicit than others in the Holocaust. The worst was Romania. While Finland was almost entirely guiltless. There were Rabbis acting as Jewish chaplains, and a field synagogue, attached to the Finnish army. Nonetheless the Finns engaged in joint operations with the Germans.

In Italy, Jews were persecuted, but not murdered on a large scale until the Germans took over direct control in 1943-44. This was the case in Hungary too, which was occupied by Germany in 1944. In Bulgaria, another ally of Germany, the majority of Jews were exempted from massacre, although
... However, despite the lack of official declarations of war by both sides, the Bulgarian Navy was involved in a number of skirmishes with the Soviet Black Sea Fleet ... and ... Bulgarian armed forces garrisoned in the Balkans battled various anti-German resistance groups.

The Bulgarian government was forced by Germany to declare a token war on the United Kingdom and the United States on 13 December 1941, an act which resulted in the bombing of Sofia and other Bulgarian cities by Allied aircraft.
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Old 16th December 2017, 08:37 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Here is a citation from wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number..._Joseph_Stalin
Wikipedia is not a source. Sebag-Montefiore is not a historian but a pop author. The 50 million number is absurd. Conquest did some good work (I've read his books) but was a rabid anti-Communist and his numbers simply don't hold.

This isn't some 'mainstream establishment' view you cite, it's Cold War propaganda.
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Old 18th December 2017, 04:09 PM   #298
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This got weird.
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Old 19th December 2017, 12:53 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There is nothing to whitewash. Imagine if Canada partitioned off New York and declared it Canadian, after having attacked you, and then (say) being two-hundred times your size, made it a condition of peace New York was theirs?

Wouldn't the USA feel fully justified in regaining New York if the opportunity came up?

Let's face it, alliances are made. Hint: The Canadian French and Indian War.
Just imagine, Canadian forces march into New York, the White House is burnt down and then the Canadians have the temerity to insist the USA commits to abolishing slavery as part of the peace terms. (Although the Us was perhaps a little slow in complying with that particular requirement.) Has the US given up claims on BC?
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Old 19th December 2017, 04:41 AM   #300
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I believe it has.


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Old 19th December 2017, 05:13 AM   #301
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After the code nude sauna do think they had aquavite? That's Finnish right?
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Old 19th December 2017, 05:42 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
After the code nude sauna do think they had aquavite? That's Finnish right?
But they probably spell it something like Aakvaviittaäinen or something equally ridiculous.
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Old 19th December 2017, 05:52 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
After the code nude sauna do think they had aquavite? That's Finnish right?
It's Latin: Aqua Vitae, water of life. The expression looks similar in Gaelic.
The phrase uisce beatha, literally "water of life", was the name given by Irish monks of the early Middle Ages to distilled alcohol. It is simply a translation of the Latin aqua vitae.
Whence "whisky", "Whiskey".
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Old 19th December 2017, 10:52 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
After the code nude sauna do think they had aquavite? That's Finnish right?
"Akvavit" is Swedish.
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Old 19th December 2017, 11:39 AM   #305
Craig B
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
"Akvavit" is Swedish.
Per wiki
In 1809, when Finland was conquered by the Russian Empire and became an autonomous Grand Duchy, Swedish remained the only official language. In 1863, both Finnish and Swedish became official languages with equal status, and by the time of Finland's independence in 1917, after a Finnicization campaign by the Fennoman movement, Finnish clearly dominated in government and society.
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Old 19th December 2017, 03:28 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Snyder says, and his view is consistent with that of the US Holocaust Museum, that Hitler killed six million Jews and eleven million non Jews. Do you accept these figures or not? That's twice you've been given them, and they are, as you admit, the fruit of "much research"

You then disparage Snyder as a liar by citing him stating that Finland was an ally of Germany, and that Hitler concluded from his invasion of the USSR that Jews could be disposed of by mass murder. Finland was indeed an ally of Germany, but did not persecute Jews. I have cited evidence of both statements, but here's more, from the vehemently right wing UK newspaper, the Daily Telegraph.
The alliance between Hitler and the race he vowed to annihilate — the only instance of Jews fighting for Germany’s allies — is one of the most extraordinary aspects of the Second World War, and yet hardly anyone, including many Finns, know anything about it.
It was in plain reality Hitler's invasion of the USSR that convinced him Jews could be entirely annihilated, and Snyder is not accusing Finland of participating in the Holocaust. No fair reading of Snyder's words could make them imply that.

Now tell us plainly. You have been given good grounds for accepting a figure of 15 to 20 million Holocaust victims, including 6 million Jews. Do you accept this? You have been given the sources. Or do you reject this figure? Express yourself plainly please, when you respond.

Some of Hitler's allies were more complicit than others in the Holocaust. The worst was Romania. While Finland was almost entirely guiltless. There were Rabbis acting as Jewish chaplains, and a field synagogue, attached to the Finnish army. Nonetheless the Finns engaged in joint operations with the Germans.

In Italy, Jews were persecuted, but not murdered on a large scale until the Germans took over direct control in 1943-44. This was the case in Hungary too, which was occupied by Germany in 1944. In Bulgaria, another ally of Germany, the majority of Jews were exempted from massacre, although
... However, despite the lack of official declarations of war by both sides, the Bulgarian Navy was involved in a number of skirmishes with the Soviet Black Sea Fleet ... and ... Bulgarian armed forces garrisoned in the Balkans battled various anti-German resistance groups.

The Bulgarian government was forced by Germany to declare a token war on the United Kingdom and the United States on 13 December 1941, an act which resulted in the bombing of Sofia and other Bulgarian cities by Allied aircraft.
Craig B you make some decent points. However, the definition of Holocaust denial is as follows:

Quote:
Holocaust denial is the act of denying the genocide of Jews in the Holocaust during World War II.[1] Holocaust denial often includes the following claims: that Nazi Germany's Final Solution was aimed only at deporting Jews from the Reich, but that it did not include the extermination of Jews; that Nazi authorities did not use extermination camps and gas chambers to mass murder Jews; or that the actual number of Jews killed was significantly lower than the historically accepted figure of 5 to 6 million, typically around a tenth of that figure.[2][3][4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

I have consistently stated the Holocaust figure to be six million, as according to the establishment view.

To try to claim the Holocaust was 15 million is irresponsible and inaccurate IMV.
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Old 19th December 2017, 03:33 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
After the code nude sauna do think they had aquavite? That's Finnish right?
Usually a nice cold lager. The only Finnish words you need to know are SAUNA, OLUT (beer) and KOSKENKORVA.
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Old 19th December 2017, 03:37 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Just imagine, Canadian forces march into New York, the White House is burnt down and then the Canadians have the temerity to insist the USA commits to abolishing slavery as part of the peace terms. (Although the Us was perhaps a little slow in complying with that particular requirement.) Has the US given up claims on BC?
What did Dela Ware, boys?

There have been plenty of wars and co-belligerents in the USA, but no-one knocks them.
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Old 19th December 2017, 06:28 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Craig B you make some decent points. However, the definition of Holocaust denial is as follows:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

I have consistently stated the Holocaust figure to be six million, as according to the establishment view.

To try to claim the Holocaust was 15 million is irresponsible and inaccurate IMV.
No, you've consistently claimed that the Nazi regime only murdered six million innocent civilians, i.e., only the six million Jews. You have denied that the Nazis also murdered ethnic Poles, Russians, Romani and Sinti, homosexuals, disabled and sundry other groups of undesirables. And the term Holocaust also refers to those groups:
Quote:
From 1941 to 1945, Germany targeted European Jewry for extermination as part of a larger event that included the persecution and murder of other groups. A broader definition of the Holocaust includes the murder of the Roma and the "incurably sick".[7] A broader definition still includes ethnic Poles, other Slavic groups, Soviet citizens and prisoners of war, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, black people, and political opponents.
So yes, denying the slaughter of those groups constitutes also Holocaust denial. It also unequivocally makes you a Nazi apologist.

Here is an exchange of posts in this thread that makes your lying clear:
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Only people on this thread believe the Germans slaughtered more than the Russians.
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
To assess that, you need to know how many people were killed by the Germans and by the USSR.

You say six million victims of Nazi atrocity. I say fifteen millions, including six million Jews, plus many others. We don't agree within a factor of two and a half times! What is the value of your opinion about who killed most in that case? What figure do you now propose, and what is its source?

This is from the right wing (not pro-communist) UK newspaper, the Daily Telegraph. I'm going with the lowest figure in their range of estimates published by Washington Holocaust Museum (not a communist source)
The new figures of 15 to 20 million, which have astonished some Holocaust historians, come after thirteen years of painstaking study at Washington's Holocaust Memorial Museum. Historians at the museum brought together and studied the huge amount, and often disparate, files and research on the Holocaust.
ETA The US Holocaust Museum list of victims by category may be seen here.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The figure usually quoted is 'six million Jews', and that is all I was referring to.

I see no point in hyperbole. Let's state the correct figures.
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
No, I don't want you to claim 15 million Jews were killed. I want you to give a fair assessment of all the mass-murders the Nazis committed. And that's not just the Jews, and I've made that very clear by repeatedly asking which groups you include in your figure.

And with these answers, you make it very clear you only consider the Jewish victims of the Nazi terror.

You deny the Nazis also murdered, e.g., 3 million non-Jewish Poles.
You deny the Nazis also systematically murdered disabled people.
You deny the Nazis also systematically murdered Romani and Sinti. Remember the picture of the girl I posted before? That's Settela Steinbach, a Dutch Sinti girl who was captured on camera just as "her" train was leaving Westerbork for Auschwitz.

And I could go on. That is all also part of the Holocaust (in wider sense).

That makes you a Holocaust denier and a Nazi apologist.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What a poor quality shabby argument. Because I shan't be bullied into agreeing 'Stalin killed fewer people than the Nazis' that equates in your mind to 'Holocaust denier'.

Talk about a massive logical fallacy: disproportionallity.

It's as though 'Holocaust denier' is your schoolboy version of the nastiest insult you can dream up.
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Old 19th December 2017, 06:32 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
"Akvavit" is Swedish.
Yeah, like after I've had it, I'm in any condition to spell. There were shot glasses, salmon smoked and pickled, it was cold, there was a cab ride. I needed a sauna again the next day.
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Old 19th December 2017, 07:37 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Craig B you make some decent points. However, the definition of Holocaust denial is as follows:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

I have consistently stated the Holocaust figure to be six million, as according to the establishment view.

To try to claim the Holocaust was 15 million is irresponsible and inaccurate IMV.
Here we go again
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Old 20th December 2017, 12:01 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Here we go again
There's something pretty disgusting about denying the murder of between 5 and 9 million people.
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Old 20th December 2017, 01:42 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
There's something pretty disgusting about denying the murder of between 5 and 9 million people.
Particularly when the purpose of massaging the death toll is to ensure that Stalin killed more (of his own people, of other people, people - I'm not even sure any more what the claim is) than Hitler which is why it's perfectly fine and dandy that Finland was allied with (or use some euphemistic phrase like "were co-belligerents with" in an attempt to minimise the relationship) the Nazis.
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Old 20th December 2017, 01:45 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What did Dela Ware, boys?

There have been plenty of wars and co-belligerents in the USA, but no-one knocks them.
Of course they do - that's one of the reasons why the UK is known throughout parts of the Arab world as the Little Satan, because of our lapdoggery towards the Great Satan.
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Old 20th December 2017, 02:16 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Craig B you make some decent points. However, the definition of Holocaust denial is as follows:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

I have consistently stated the Holocaust figure to be six million, as according to the establishment view.

To try to claim the Holocaust was 15 million is irresponsible and inaccurate IMV.
The six million refers to the number of Jewish victims. But that is not the total extent of Hitler's crimes. He killed many more millions, particularly Roma, Sinti and Slavs. The US Holocaust Museum assesses the total at 15 to 20 millions altogether, of whom six million were Jews. By saying Hitler killed six million people in total, you are minimising the extent of his crimes by a factor of two and a half times. What is there about these figures that you don't understand? Are you unaware that Hitler committed crimes against the population of occupied areas in general, most of whom were Slavs? That millions of people were taken as forced labourers to his industrial centres, where many died? That innumerable hostages were taken and killed in reprisals? That while his greatest hostility was directed against Jews, these were not his only victims. That this has been studied by the US Holocaust Museum, and they have produced figures? Do you not accept these? If not, why not? The "establishment" says six million Jews were murdered and that figure is correct, as far as can be determined. But he killed others in the lands his armies occupied.

This is from a speech made by Himmler to SS officers in occupied Poznan in 1943.
Whether nations live in prosperity or starve to death interests me only in so far as we need them as slaves for our culture: otherwise it is of no interest to me. Whether ten thousand Russian females fall down from exhaustion while digging an anti-tank ditch interests me only in so far as the anti-tank ditch for Germany is finished. We shall never be tough and heartless where it is not necessary, that is clear. We, Germans, who are the only people in the world who have a decent attitude towards animals, will also assume a decent attitude towards these human animals. But it is a crime against our blood to worry about them and give them ideals, thus causing our sons and grandsons to have a more difficult time with them. When somebody comes up to me and says: 'I cannot dig the anti-tank ditch with women and children, it is inhuman, for it would kill them,' then I have to say: 'You are the murderer of your own blood, because if the anti-tank ditch is not dug German soldiers will die, and they are the sons of German mothers.
And his behaviour matched these words. Can you not comprehend this?
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Old 20th December 2017, 03:48 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, they went to Äänislinna (now called Petrograd) on Lake Ladoga - my 23-year old uncle was a fallen soldier at Maaselkä - to reclaim Karelia.
That's another lie. The city Petrozavodsk, which lies on the western shore of Lake Onega, had never been Finnish in the first place:
Quote:
On September 11, 1703, Prince Menshikov founded the settlement of Petrovskaya Sloboda ("Petrine Sloboda"). He did so at the behest of Tsar Peter the Great, who needed a new iron foundry to manufacture cannons and anchors for the Baltic Fleet at the time of the Great Northern War (1700–1721).
[...]
The city was occupied by Finnish troops for nearly three years before it was retaken by Soviet forces on June 28, 1944.
So, Petrozavodsk was Russian before Russia acquired great swaths of Swedish territory in the Great Northern War and the Russo-Swedish War. After the 1808-1809 Finnish war, the city was not part of the Grand-Duchy of Finland. After the 1917 Russian Revolution and Finnish independence, it remained part of Russia and the Soviet Union, and in 1923 became the capital of the Karelian ASSR.

Oh, and the Finnish occupation of Petrozavodsk in 1941 cut the Murmansk railroad and forced the Soviets to lay around 400 km of railroad track going east around Lake Onega.

In summary, to posit that occupying Petrozavodsk was "reclaiming" territory is a flat-out lie.
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Old 20th December 2017, 04:14 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
In summary, to posit that occupying Petrozavodsk was "reclaiming" territory is a flat-out lie.
It was part of Great Finland 50,000 years ago.
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Old 20th December 2017, 05:53 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Lying by omission, I see. You forgot to mention:
Quote:
"Den svenska staten använder sig av brutala tvångs- och våldsmetoder för att eftertryckligt trampa ned den utländska antifascisten som likt en vrakspillra efter den tyska demokratins skeppsbrott kastats upp på svensk strand" [9]

Translation:

"The Swedish government is using brutal methods to forcefully crush the foreign antifascists who like remnants after the shipwreck of the German democracy was washed upon Swedish shores.”
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I prefer to listen to the moderate establishment view.
That's why you cite a Swedish anarcho-syndicalist newspaper there? When it comes to smearing your Scandinavian neighbours, such considerations go out of the window?

Here's from a review of a book about those Swedish internment camps:
Quote:
Now, however, scientist Tobias Berglund and author Niclas Sennerteg have dug into the archives, and in their book Swedish concentration camps in the Third Empire shadow they can reveal the details.

In summary, there were 14 camps, and in total approximately 3,000 persons were detained, without trial, without any official motive, without the right to appeal, for an indefinite period and required to do forced labour. No torture or similar inhuman treatment occurred, but the uncertain relationship was psychologically stressful and in a few of the camps the discipline was very strict. In Rengsjö in Hälsingland it was so strict that it led to a large group of internees marching out into freedom to shape public opinion, but were returned by police and the home guard.
(translation Google Translate with some editing by me to make it into proper English).

The horror. Those evil Swedes treated the internees so horribly and guarded them so oppressively that they even could walk out of the camp and talk to journalists.

And no-one died either! I mean, the Finns did it right when they interned 24,000 ethnic Russians from Karelia and let 4,400 of them starve to death, and with the even higher 28% mortality rate among Soviet POWs. Right?

There's no doubt this was a human rights violation, but really, it's a footnote compared to everything else that went on during WW2, including what Finland did. But what else can you expect from a Nazi apologist?
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Old 20th December 2017, 06:08 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I have a newspaper clipping of that
I'm simply asking that you support your claim. You apparently even refuse to give a date of this alleged incident where Norwegian fascists killed protesters. I think by now we can safely conclude that you made it up out of whole cloth.
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Old 20th December 2017, 06:30 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
When it comes to politics and military history involving Russia I'd be slightly wary of claims written by persons sympathetic towards the communists.

In addition, many of the Finnish generals changed their names from Swedish. For example, Talvela was born Thorstén.

Viikla was born Viklund. Your claim he committed suicide because of some kind of military shame is sheer revisionism as he was posthumously awarded the Mannerheim Cross, Finland's highest honour.
Your denunciation of anything that's not favourable to your point of view as "Russian propaganda" is very tiresome. Furthermore, you're twisting my words with respect to Colonel Vikla. I wrote:
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
And no, we're not talking about the SS Nord Division, we're talking about a regular division in the Finnish Army that was attached to the German XXXVI Corps during Arctic Fox, and that was commanded by Colonel Werner Viikla, who committed suicide after failure of that operation.
The preposition "after" in English denotes a temporal relation between two events, not (necessarily) a causal relation. Besides that, that (botched) English translation of the Finnish wiki you gave does not disprove any causal relationship.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As you have been told, Major General Hjalmar Siilasvuo, who was Finnish, was the only non-German commander of a German division.
As I've repeated already several times, Operation Arctic Fox was a joint operation of the Finnish and the Nazi German army:
Quote:
As a joint operation by German and Finnish forces, it combined experienced Finnish arctic troops with relatively unsuitable German forces from Norway. They managed to capture Salla after fierce fighting, but the German troops were unable to overcome the old, pre-war Soviet border fortifications further east. The Finnish units were able to make better progress, and came to within 30 km (19 mi) of the Murmansk railway.
The line-up of Arctic Fox consisted of:
1) German XXXVI Corps, consisting of:
1.a) German 169th Infantry Division
1.b) German SS-Division Nord
1.c) Finnish 6h Division
1.d) German Panzer Abteilung 211
2) Finnish III Corps consisting of:
2.a) Finnish 3rd Division
2.b) German Panzer-Abteilung 40

So, it was not only a joint operation of German and Finnish troops, but there were Finnish troops fighting under German corps command vice versa.

And they were not allies?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As for age, my source is from a commemorative magazine I bought on impulse at the airport whilst waiting for my flight. It is an ILTA SANOMAT 100 years War Supplement, in which they feature 100 veterans describing their war experiences. Someone called Pentti Vanamo, b. 1925, relates how he was pro-Germany as a boy and wanted adventure. Sorry, I am mistaken, he says he was 16, but was turned away from the SS regiment as their age limit was 17. He goes on to say when he discovered eight Jewish families in Turku were deported it changed his attitude towards the Germans. He says the war experience was 'terrible' and something he will never forget.
Really, your source is a magazine you bought at the airport?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes a handful of Finns signed up with the Germans, but the vast majority stuck to the Finnish army.
Duh, when you can fight the Russkies in the regular Finnish army there's no need to enlist in the Waffen-SS, so it's small wonder the number is relatively low. Still, around 1,400 enlisted in the Finnish Volunteer Battalion. And how did they get there?
Quote:
The Finnish Government recruited men for service with the Waffen-SS for a two-year term in early 1941
Oops, the Finnish government did the recruiting.

But Finland and Germany were not allies?
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