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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Finland history

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Old 20th December 2017, 07:28 AM   #321
Cleon
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Craig B you make some decent points. However, the definition of Holocaust denial is as follows:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

I have consistently stated the Holocaust figure to be six million, as according to the establishment view.

To try to claim the Holocaust was 15 million is irresponsible and inaccurate IMV.
Why on Earth is it so important for you to deny that the Nazis slaughtered millions of non-Jews?
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Old 20th December 2017, 10:35 AM   #322
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Is Vixen denying that the Nazis murdered millions of non-combatant civilians in addition to the Jewish deaths, or does Vixin admit that the millions of non-Jews were murdered, but is arguing that non-Jewish murders should not be counted as part of the Holocaust?

There are many Jewish people who argue that the capitol "H" Holocaust should only be used to refer to the murder of Jewish people. They don't deny the murder of millions of others, but they feel that those deaths should not be considered as part of the Holocaust.

The Holocaust: Non-Jewish Victims

Quote:
However tragic, these non-Jewish victims are typically not considered victims of the Holocaust. According to the Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial Museum in Jerusalem, “By the 1950s, the English term Holocaust came to be employed as the term for the murder of the Jews in Europe by the Nazis. Although the term is sometimes used with reference to the murder of other groups by the Nazis, strictly speaking, those groups do not belong under the heading of the Holocaust, nor are they included in the generally accepted statistic of six million victims of the Holocaust.”
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Old 20th December 2017, 10:58 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Is Vixen denying that the Nazis murdered millions of non-combatant civilians in addition to the Jewish deaths, or does Vixin admit that the millions of non-Jews were murdered, but is arguing that non-Jewish murders should not be counted as part of the Holocaust?

There are many Jewish people who argue that the capitol "H" Holocaust should only be used to refer to the murder of Jewish people. They don't deny the murder of millions of others, but they feel that those deaths should not be considered as part of the Holocaust.

The Holocaust: Non-Jewish Victims
The word "Holocaust" initially didn't come into it. It was just about number of people (civilians) killed. See, e.g., this post #85:
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is just a figure of speech, based on the heuristic figures thrown about that the Germans 'killed 6 million', and Stalin 'killed 20 million'.

Do you disagree with this likely ratio?
and after being asked numerous times to show her work, she only mentioned Jews.

But frankly, I fully expect the Nazi apologist to go the full David Irving route.
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Old 20th December 2017, 12:03 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The word "Holocaust" initially didn't come into it. It was just about number of people (civilians) killed. See, e.g., this post #85:

and after being asked numerous times to show her work, she only mentioned Jews.

But frankly, I fully expect the Nazi apologist to go the full David Irving route.
Yes, the issue is comparing Hitler's crimes with Stalin's. If we restrict the word Holocaust to Jewish victims only, very well, Hitler committed other crimes than the Holocaust, and this is acknowledged by the US and Yad Vashem Holocaust museums of course.

In the same way, Stalin perpetrated the Terror, but even if we restrict that name to the intra-Party political murders of 1937-38, he committed other killings. to which we may attach other names without relieving Stalin of guilt.
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Old 20th December 2017, 12:05 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
But they probably spell it something like Aakvaviittaäinen or something equally ridiculous.
not funny
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Old 20th December 2017, 12:17 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
It was part of Great Finland 50,000 years ago.
not funny. I understand that you, as a representative of a former occupant country feel some incomprehensible envy towards the territories you have lost and cope with that by making stupid jokes.
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Old 20th December 2017, 12:44 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Yes, the issue is comparing Hitler's crimes with Stalin's. If we restrict the word Holocaust to Jewish victims only, very well, Hitler committed other crimes than the Holocaust, and this is acknowledged by the US and Yad Vashem Holocaust museums of course.

In the same way, Stalin perpetrated the Terror, but even if we restrict that name to the intra-Party political murders of 1937-38, he committed other killings. to which we may attach other names without relieving Stalin of guilt.
Why compare two bastards? John is better because he killed 10 (and 9 his own - this came up on this thread, which, of course, makes him even nicer), but nasty Joe killed 12? What these regimes did to Europe was unforgivable. I don't get the point of comments here - should we say that Finland and other countries that wanted independence and chose a way they seemed fit were idiots? They should have given up to Stalin and obey immediately, because the times were like that at that time? Yey, we only had to wait ~50 years (45 - 89-91)

I am off agian. I can't stand reading people who whitewash the Soviets. You have no idea how it was like when my grandparents could be woken up in the middle of night and sent to Gulag for 25 years, if they got lucky
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Old 20th December 2017, 12:48 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
This is not an "old school establishment view" but something you made up.

I have given you current credible numbers for the bulk of the mass deaths under Stalin - 2-4 million due to the Great Famines, 1-2 due to the various purges. Why do you refuse to accept these? Why do you insist on exonerating Hitler and demonizing Stalin as much as humanlybpossible?
I now understand why people like you extradited innocent people. You feel so self-righteous, and have for hundreds of years.
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Old 20th December 2017, 12:52 PM   #329
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maybe i have gotten all this wrong? You are not saying that Stalin was a nice guy 'compared' (how can you compare two bastards) and I have misunderstood?
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Old 20th December 2017, 12:55 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post

I am off agian. I can't stand reading people who whitewash the Soviets. You have no idea how it was like when my grandparents could be woken up in the middle of night and sent to Gulag for 25 years, if they got lucky
You really are "off again" if you call these words of mine "whitewashing the Soviets"
Quote:
even if we restrict that name (Terror) to the intra-Party political murders of 1937-38, he (Stalin) committed other killings. to which we may attach other names without relieving Stalin of guilt
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Old 20th December 2017, 01:01 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
not funny. I understand that you, as a representative of a former occupant country feel some incomprehensible envy towards the territories you have lost and cope with that by making stupid jokes.
"Occupant country" East Sweden may be automomous now, but it was quite integrated for hundreds of years. You mights as well say the Swedes are "occupying" Geatland.
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Old 20th December 2017, 01:34 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
There's something pretty disgusting about denying the murder of between 5 and 9 million people.
That's your straw man.
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Old 20th December 2017, 01:37 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Particularly when the purpose of massaging the death toll is to ensure that Stalin killed more (of his own people, of other people, people - I'm not even sure any more what the claim is) than Hitler which is why it's perfectly fine and dandy that Finland was allied with (or use some euphemistic phrase like "were co-belligerents with" in an attempt to minimise the relationship) the Nazis.
There is no minimisation. Finland was not a NAZI country. Unlike the Fascist German dictatorship (and ditto Romania, Japan and Italy) Finland was and is a western democratic country.

But then you knew that.
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Old 20th December 2017, 01:45 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
Why compare two bastards?
Whom are you asking? It was Vixen who came up with the idea of comparing Hitler to Stalin; and whitewashing Hitler in the process.

Originally Posted by kayle View Post
John is better because he killed 10 (and 9 his own - this came up on this thread, which, of course, makes him even nicer),
Someone in this thread posited the ludicrous idea that all 6 million Jews that the Nazis murdered were German citizens. (Hint: that someone was not me).

Originally Posted by kayle View Post
but nasty Joe killed 12? What these regimes did to Europe was unforgivable. I don't get the point of comments here - should we say that Finland and other countries that wanted independence and chose a way they seemed fit were idiots?
Last I looked, Finland got independent from Russia in 1917/1918 quite uncomplicated.

Originally Posted by kayle View Post
They should have given up to Stalin and obey immediately, because the times were like that at that time? Yey, we only had to wait ~50 years (45 - 89-91)

I am off agian. I can't stand reading people who whitewash the Soviets. You have no idea how it was like when my grandparents could be woken up in the middle of night and sent to Gulag for 25 years, if they got lucky
Nobody's whitewashing the Soviets, nor Stalin in particular. But there's no reason to exaggerate what they did, and there's absolutely no reason to whitewash Hitler and the Nazis.
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Old 20th December 2017, 01:47 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
The six million refers to the number of Jewish victims. But that is not the total extent of Hitler's crimes. He killed many more millions, particularly Roma, Sinti and Slavs. The US Holocaust Museum assesses the total at 15 to 20 millions altogether, of whom six million were Jews. By saying Hitler killed six million people in total, you are minimising the extent of his crimes by a factor of two and a half times. What is there about these figures that you don't understand? Are you unaware that Hitler committed crimes against the population of occupied areas in general, most of whom were Slavs? That millions of people were taken as forced labourers to his industrial centres, where many died? That innumerable hostages were taken and killed in reprisals? That while his greatest hostility was directed against Jews, these were not his only victims. That this has been studied by the US Holocaust Museum, and they have produced figures? Do you not accept these? If not, why not? The "establishment" says six million Jews were murdered and that figure is correct, as far as can be determined. But he killed others in the lands his armies occupied.

This is from a speech made by Himmler to SS officers in occupied Poznan in 1943.
Whether nations live in prosperity or starve to death interests me only in so far as we need them as slaves for our culture: otherwise it is of no interest to me. Whether ten thousand Russian females fall down from exhaustion while digging an anti-tank ditch interests me only in so far as the anti-tank ditch for Germany is finished. We shall never be tough and heartless where it is not necessary, that is clear. We, Germans, who are the only people in the world who have a decent attitude towards animals, will also assume a decent attitude towards these human animals. But it is a crime against our blood to worry about them and give them ideals, thus causing our sons and grandsons to have a more difficult time with them. When somebody comes up to me and says: 'I cannot dig the anti-tank ditch with women and children, it is inhuman, for it would kill them,' then I have to say: 'You are the murderer of your own blood, because if the anti-tank ditch is not dug German soldiers will die, and they are the sons of German mothers.
And his behaviour matched these words. Can you not comprehend this?

This is your strawman as this thread is about Finland's 100 years independence. TubbaBubba decided to introduce the topic of Stalin versus Hitler. Not sure why you've decided that the Holocaust figure should be increased from six million to 15 million (when strangely, you claim it is 'innumerable') and the Stalin figure reduced.

Look, I have no connection with Germany. I haven't studied its history or geography to any great extent. There was some German influence on Finland during the Hansa league era (the Kalmar Union) and Lübeck was considered a part of Scandinavia. My cousin did her PhD in German, which is one of the languages you can opt for at Univ, and then there's the Lutheran influence.

Other than that I am completely neutral as to whether 'Germany is worse/better than Russia'.

What I will not do is bandy about figures to try to browbeat others into believing 'Germans are better/or worse'.
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Old 20th December 2017, 01:49 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There is no minimisation. Finland was not a NAZI country. Unlike the Fascist German dictatorship (and ditto Romania, Japan and Italy) Finland was and is a western democratic country.

But then you knew that.
Do you have an infinite supply of straw? The_Don is not claiming that, nor is anyone else in this thread. But Finland was allied with Nazi Germany and trying to obfuscate that fact by some euphemism like "co-belligerent" is a form of whitewashing.
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Old 20th December 2017, 01:57 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
That's why you cite a Swedish anarcho-syndicalist newspaper there? When it comes to smearing your Scandinavian neighbours, such considerations go out of the window?

Here's from a review of a book about those Swedish internment camps:

(translation Google Translate with some editing by me to make it into proper English).

The horror. Those evil Swedes treated the internees so horribly and guarded them so oppressively that they even could walk out of the camp and talk to journalists.

And no-one died either! I mean, the Finns did it right when they interned 24,000 ethnic Russians from Karelia and let 4,400 of them starve to death, and with the even higher 28% mortality rate among Soviet POWs. Right?

There's no doubt this was a human rights violation, but really, it's a footnote compared to everything else that went on during WW2, including what Finland did. But what else can you expect from a Nazi apologist?

As someone who researched a book about Finland and the Holocaust from first hand sources, I find your unwarranted accusation extremely offensive.


If 4,400 out of 24K Russian POW's 'starved to death', how come the other 20K did not?

As I said before, those who indulged in war crimes were brought to justice, and rightly so.
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Old 20th December 2017, 01:58 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I'm simply asking that you support your claim. You apparently even refuse to give a date of this alleged incident where Norwegian fascists killed protesters. I think by now we can safely conclude that you made it up out of whole cloth.
I'll see if I can find it.
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Old 20th December 2017, 01:59 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This is your strawman as this thread is about Finland's 100 years independence. TubbaBubba decided to introduce the topic of Stalin versus Hitler.
Don't lie. This is from your post #50:
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So, we get to hear poor poor Russia's side and it swamps wikipedia, yet Stalin murdered twice as many of its own citizens as Germany.
and is the first comparison in this thread between Hitler and Stalin.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Not sure why you've decided that the Holocaust figure should be increased from six million to 15 million (when strangely, you claim it is 'innumerable') and the Stalin figure reduced.
Craig_B and TubbaBubba simply cite reputable numbers that are backed up by actual historians. Your numbers are the result of your own colorectal "research".

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Look, I have no connection with Germany. I haven't studied its history or geography to any great extent.
Yet you've claimed time and again on this thread and the other thread that you "researched" this and "researched" that. You can't back out of that.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Other than that I am completely neutral as to whether 'Germany is worse/better than Russia'.
And that's why you introduced the comparison between Hitler and Stalin?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What I will not do is bandy about figures to try to browbeat others into believing 'Germans are better/or worse'.
The question is whether the Nazi regime or the Stalin regime murdered more people. You definitely took a stand on that and you put forward figures. You can't try to back out now and say you're not interested.

Oh, and with those numbers you're definitely a Holocaust denier and a Nazi apologist.
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Old 20th December 2017, 02:01 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Why on Earth is it so important for you to deny that the Nazis slaughtered millions of non-Jews?
I haven't denied it at all. I am not going to quote wild figures from a chat forum. I'll wait until it becomes the accepted establishment view.

It's only your opinion the Shoah was 15 million.
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Old 20th December 2017, 02:05 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Is Vixen denying that the Nazis murdered millions of non-combatant civilians in addition to the Jewish deaths, or does Vixin admit that the millions of non-Jews were murdered, but is arguing that non-Jewish murders should not be counted as part of the Holocaust?

There are many Jewish people who argue that the capitol "H" Holocaust should only be used to refer to the murder of Jewish people. They don't deny the murder of millions of others, but they feel that those deaths should not be considered as part of the Holocaust.

The Holocaust: Non-Jewish Victims
As I was researching Finland and the Holocaust, then obviously the area of interest was the Jewish one.

Of course hundreds of thousands, and even millions of 'others' died.

You could say that those who complain, 'How come only the Jews get recognised as Holocaust victims', are being anti-Semitic. And some undoubtedly are.
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Old 20th December 2017, 02:07 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The word "Holocaust" initially didn't come into it. It was just about number of people (civilians) killed. See, e.g., this post #85:

and after being asked numerous times to show her work, she only mentioned Jews.

But frankly, I fully expect the Nazi apologist to go the full David Irving route.
That is a really sick comment.
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Old 20th December 2017, 02:09 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As someone who researched a book about Finland and the Holocaust from first hand sources, I find your unwarranted accusation extremely offensive.
Then maybe you shouldn't deny the Holocaust (in wider sense).

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If 4,400 out of 24K Russian POW's 'starved to death', how come the other 20K did not?
Stop lying. Those numbers are not about Russian POWs. Those numbers are about ethnic Russians living in East Karelia, which was occupied by Finland 1941-1944.

And what kind of question is that anyway? You think an 18% mortality rate is not high enough?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As I said before, those who indulged in war crimes were brought to justice, and rightly so.
AFAIK, only the ones responsible for the POW deaths, not the civilian deaths. Secondly, on instruction from the Allied Control Commission, Thirdly, you shouldn't commit war crimes on that scale in the first place.

And in between all your lies, how credible do you think your "rightly so" there is?

And finally, should you not apologize for trying to point at Sweden for a small misstep in the first place? This thread is about Finland, not Sweden.
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Old 20th December 2017, 02:15 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Do you have an infinite supply of straw? The_Don is not claiming that, nor is anyone else in this thread. But Finland was allied with Nazi Germany and trying to obfuscate that fact by some euphemism like "co-belligerent" is a form of whitewashing.
No, the Don, like Snyder, is trying to rewrite history, by including Finland in the same breath as fascist Germany, Romania, and Italy, using the phrase the aim was to exterminate Jews, when Finland never at any point adopted that view.

When will it sink in? The Don's comments are the sort of stuff one might read in the DAILY MAIL: comments from Little Englanders. For example, 'Finland was at war with the allies[i.e., us!' oooh, shock horror, how dare they not listen to what we tell them from 1,000 miles away.

You'd be surprised how many people believe Finland is, 'in Russia'.
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Old 20th December 2017, 02:16 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I haven't denied it at all. I am not going to quote wild figures from a chat forum. I'll wait until it becomes the accepted establishment view.

It's only your opinion the Shoah was 15 million.
Don't play with words and put up strawmen. The question was the total number of victims of the Nazi regime.

You've gotten links in this thread from Yad Vashem, the USHMM and the Jewish Virtual Library supporting estimates between 11 and 15 million. Yet you keep claiming that the number of victims of the Nazi regime is only 6 million, and more preposterously that that would be the "establishment view".
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Old 20th December 2017, 02:18 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This is your strawman as this thread is about Finland's 100 years independence. TubbaBubba decided to introduce the topic of Stalin versus Hitler. Not sure why you've decided that the Holocaust figure should be increased from six million to 15 million (when strangely, you claim it is 'innumerable') and the Stalin figure reduced.
Let us clear up confusion about terms. You say that Hitler's victims amount to six million murders. But that is the number of Jews he killed. In addition to that he killed millions more. Slavs, Roma etc, and the US Holocaust Museum says a total of 15-20 million. So let's say 15.

I referred to the number of hostages killed by the Nazis as reprisals, for example to deter resistance attacks. How many? I don't know, so I said innumerable, which means "a lot but I don't know the number".

So the figure of six millions is too low. Stalin's murders are more difficult to count, for various reasons, not least that he could hide them better, and the majority of them were not direct murder, but the deaths of peasants in famines, and inmates in camps.

Stalin is responsible for these, but they are hard to count, as they happened in villages and closed areas. The 1937-38 Purge victims we can count, because they were direct politically motivated murders, decreed in lists and phoney trials; and they amount to the huge total of some two million, either executed or died in confinement in camps or prisons. How many died on their way to camps in trains and other transports isn't known, but must be substantial.

But you produced a wrong figure, of 60 million. Out of a 1937 population of 160 million that is not possible, and in fact you have misread your sources, because the 60 millions is an estimate of all the deaths direct and indirect, caused by communist political contradictions in the whole communist world, including China. It doesn't refer only to Stalin's murders.

You may well say that these errors aren't important because both H and S were evil doers, but the errors are so significant that they merit amendment.

One of the oddities of the Stalinist political order is that it was remarkably convincing to many people : it was more plausible than fascism - and it was more durable. I've always been concerned to know why, not because I admire it, but on the contrary because I am concerned never to repeat it.
Quote:

What I will not do is bandy about figures to try to browbeat others into believing 'Germans are better/or worse'.
Nothing like that is being attempted, as I hope this post will convince you.
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Old 20th December 2017, 02:30 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Let us clear up confusion about terms. You say that Hitler's victims amount to six million murders. But that is the number of Jews he killed. In addition to that he killed millions more. Slavs, Roma etc, and the US Holocaust Museum says a total of 15-20 million. So let's say 15.

I referred to the number of hostages killed by the Nazis as reprisals, for example to deter resistance attacks. How many? I don't know, so I said innumerable, which means "a lot but I don't know the number".

So the figure of six millions is too low. Stalin's murders are more difficult to count, for various reasons, not least that he could hide them better, and the majority of them were not direct murder, but the deaths of peasants in famines, and inmates in camps.

Stalin is responsible for these, but they are hard to count, as they happened in villages and closed areas. The 1937-38 Purge victims we can count, because they were direct politically motivated murders, decreed in lists and phoney trials; and they amount to the huge total of some two million, either executed or died in confinement in camps or prisons. How many died on their way to camps in trains and other transports isn't known, but must be substantial.

But you produced a wrong figure, of 60 million. Out of a 1937 population of 160 million that is not possible, and in fact you have misread your sources, because the 60 millions is an estimate of all the deaths direct and indirect, caused by communist political contradictions in the whole communist world, including China. It doesn't refer only to Stalin's murders.

You may well say that these errors aren't important because both H and S were evil doers, but the errors are so significant that they merit amendment.

One of the oddities of the Stalinist political order is that it was remarkably convincing to many people : it was more plausible than fascism - and it was more durable. I've always been concerned to know why, not because I admire it, but on the contrary because I am concerned never to repeat it. Nothing like that is being attempted, as I hope this post will convince you.
AIUI the figure of 'six million' includes Roma and homosexuals.

I didn't quote 60million by Stalin, that was some academic's figure. I simply said, conversationally, that his victims were more than double Hitler's.

I also said comparisons are odious, as we are not comparing like-for-like.

Stalin didn't have a policy of genocide, Hitler had a clear objective of genociding whole groups of people, therefore IMV if evil can be measured, it doesn't make him any less evil than Stalin.

This has nothing to do with numbers, although, obviously, they are one factor of a crime against humanity.

Stalin did deprive people of their land and then sentenced to death or ten years in the gulag anyone caught 'stealing food that is the property of the state' whilst in a state of extreme starvation.

In Finland we had a huge influx of refuges from Karelia (circa 400K) and all the Karelians I ever met from that generation had nothing but bitter hatred of the oppressors that drove them from their land.

If there is one thing people love with all their hearts, it is their home soil.

Stalin took that away from the Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania) depopulated them and moved in ethnic Russians in their place.

So there is far more to it than the 'number of bodies'.

ETA about socialist ideology, it is compelling philosophy, having read Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, Bukarin. Gramsci, et al. It doesn't work in practice because society is not at the right stage of progression.
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Old 20th December 2017, 02:37 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Don't play with words and put up strawmen. The question was the total number of victims of the Nazi regime.

You've gotten links in this thread from Yad Vashem, the USHMM and the Jewish Virtual Library supporting estimates between 11 and 15 million. Yet you keep claiming that the number of victims of the Nazi regime is only 6 million, and more preposterously that that would be the "establishment view".
Note the operative word: 'estimate'.
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Old 20th December 2017, 02:39 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There is no minimisation. Finland was not a NAZI country. Unlike the Fascist German dictatorship (and ditto Romania, Japan and Italy) Finland was and is a western democratic country.

But then you knew that.
Never claimed that it was.

It was a Nazi ally which IMO for a democracy even more reprehensible than a dictatorship being one.

For some reason you want to justify this by a false bodycount
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Old 20th December 2017, 02:40 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I haven't denied it at all. I am not going to quote wild figures from a chat forum. I'll wait until it becomes the accepted establishment view.

It's only your opinion the Shoah was 15 million.
Ok, so you're gong to just hide behind dishonesty and pretend that it hasn't been conclusively shown that the Nazis killed millions of non-Jews.

I don't know why I expected better considering this thread began with a hilarious claim of a 52,000- year-old Finland, but whatever.
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Old 20th December 2017, 02:41 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Note the operative word: 'estimate'.
Your insisted upon figure is outside the estimated range by a substantial factor. Are you asserting that the estimate says 11 million, so a figure of six million is in order? Surely not.
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Old 20th December 2017, 02:45 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, the Don, like Snyder, is trying to rewrite history, by including Finland in the same breath as fascist Germany, Romania, and Italy, using the phrase the aim was to exterminate Jews, when Finland never at any point adopted that view.

When will it sink in? The Don's comments are the sort of stuff one might read in the DAILY MAIL: comments from Little Englanders. For example, 'Finland was at war with the allies[i.e., us!' oooh, shock horror, how dare they not listen to what we tell them from 1,000 miles away.

You'd be surprised how many people believe Finland is, 'in Russia'.
Utter hogwash !

The idea that I'm a Daily Mail reading little Englander is ridiculous to anyone who has read my posts.

You, in this thread however seem determined to show that Hitler wasn't that bad so it was OK that Finland was his ally.
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Old 20th December 2017, 02:49 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Never claimed that it was.

It was a Nazi ally which IMO for a democracy even more reprehensible than a dictatorship being one.

For some reason you want to justify this by a false bodycount
OK, so I take it you are Welsh. Imagine if tomorrow Wales gained independence from the UK. One of the first things that would happen would be 'Welsh pride', restoring the Welsh language as the main one, protecting your borders, etc. etc. But imagine if England decided to reduce its borders to reclaim Abergavenny and North Wales.

A bunch of Irish rebels are currently fighting for Irish independence, say, and they offer to help push back the border if only Wales will let use its port and roads to attack the English.

Would you really get on your high horse and say, 'Frightfully sorry, that's reprehensible. We'll just let the UK take back the whole of Wales and reinstate English and English law'.

Maybe you might, but I know a couple of Welshman who would be willing to fight for their land (well over a pub table, anyway).

IMV every single one of those Finns (apart from the war criminals and Nazi collaborators) are heroes.
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Old 20th December 2017, 02:54 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Your insisted upon figure is outside the estimated range by a substantial factor. Are you asserting that the estimate says 11 million, so a figure of six million is in order? Surely not.
AIUI Six million is the officially verified figure (as recorded by documents).
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Old 20th December 2017, 03:16 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That is a really sick comment.
Why is that sick? You're already imitating David Irving, albeit in a very clumsy way.

David Irving had the habit of quote mining and falsifying quotes and lying about the contents of quoted material, but he went intelligently about it and did so with obscure sources, so that for the Lipstadt trial, Richard Evans, a Cambridge historian, had to scour all his footnotes and references for their truthfulness.

You're also plain laying about what you yourself and others said, but what they said in this very thread where it's for everyone plain to see. So yes, you're already on the Irving route.

Not that that behaviour of yours is new to this thread, it seems to be your standard operating procedure.
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Old 20th December 2017, 03:24 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There is no minimisation. Finland was not a NAZI country. Unlike the Fascist German dictatorship (and ditto Romania, Japan and Italy) Finland was and is a western democratic country.

But then you knew that.
As The_Don already replied, he didn't say nor intimate any of the things you accuse him of. Stop lying.

And I have to laugh at your insistence that Finland was a western democratic country, as if that makes it impossible that Finland would try territorial expansion, would engage in war crimes or atrocities on the scale of the Nazis. In fact, the person responsible for the most deaths, percentage wise, in the last 150 years, of his subjects, was nor Hitler nor Stalin, but the head of state of a western democratic country.

(Craig, Tubba, others, please let Vixen ponder for some time on this).
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Old 20th December 2017, 03:27 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
AIUI Six million is the officially verified figure (as recorded by documents).
Saved before you might decide to edit it.

So you still insist on only six million victims of the Nazi regime. That still makes you a Holocaust denier and a Nazi apologist. I wonder how long it will take before your claim goes down and you also start denying the Nazis murdered Jews.
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Old 20th December 2017, 03:56 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Why is that sick? You're already imitating David Irving, albeit in a very clumsy way.

David Irving had the habit of quote mining and falsifying quotes and lying about the contents of quoted material, but he went intelligently about it and did so with obscure sources, so that for the Lipstadt trial, Richard Evans, a Cambridge historian, had to scour all his footnotes and references for their truthfulness.

You're also plain laying about what you yourself and others said, but what they said in this very thread where it's for everyone plain to see. So yes, you're already on the Irving route.

Not that that behaviour of yours is new to this thread, it seems to be your standard operating procedure.
You are denying that the Holocaust was about Jews (plus Roma and homosexuals) and want it to include all civilians who died under the Third Reich. To claim that the Holocaust was about virtually everybody is a gross revision of history and willfully ignoring Hitler's great obsession (clue: read a few chapter of Mein Kampf).

Lucky you to have your back covered.
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Old 20th December 2017, 03:59 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
As The_Don already replied, he didn't say nor intimate any of the things you accuse him of. Stop lying.

And I have to laugh at your insistence that Finland was a western democratic country, as if that makes it impossible that Finland would try territorial expansion, would engage in war crimes or atrocities on the scale of the Nazis. In fact, the person responsible for the most deaths, percentage wise, in the last 150 years, of his subjects, was nor Hitler nor Stalin, but the head of state of a western democratic country.

(Craig, Tubba, others, please let Vixen ponder for some time on this).
War crimes on the scale of the Nazis? You are seriously deluded.
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Old 20th December 2017, 04:01 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
War crimes on the scale of the Nazis? You are seriously deluded.
I never claimed Finland actually did that. You should really reread what I wrote.
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