ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , consciousness

Reply
Old 29th December 2017, 05:15 PM   #81
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,614
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
So? And the ONLY reason we know what we do know is from science.
Really? I know I'm conscious because of science? I kind of took that for granted. Most of the important things I know are through self-discovery. Those truths are heard-earned. What flavor quarks make up a proton? Kind of trivial.

Quote:
But since you think there is another way I CHALLENGE YOU to tell us how. Please expound on this other method to learn about the universe. Should we pray for an answer?
Introspection, of course, is one way. The unexamined life is not worth living, and all that.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2017, 05:17 PM   #82
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,614
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yea, I think it's another version of woo. Sounds like a tech version of astrology. Bovine excrement piled high for the 21st century.
Or you can keep spinning your wheels and hoping that the answer is coming someday...
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2017, 05:34 PM   #83
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 16,756
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Really? I know I'm conscious because of science? I kind of took that for granted. Most of the important things I know are through self-discovery. Those truths are heard-earned. What flavor quarks make up a proton? Kind of trivial.
Now you're changing subjects. You said we only know about 5 percent of the universe or galaxy and my reply was the ONLY reason we know as much as we do is through science. My remark had nothing to do with consciousness, but about humanity's acquired knowledge and it's source.

Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Introspection, of course, is one way. The unexamined life is not worth living, and all that.
You think if you contemplate your belly button long enough that the answer of how consciousness develops will somehow pop into your mind? Get serious.

Sam Harris or maybe it was Lawrence Krause was discussing this on a YouTube video I recently watched. He basically dismissed that even if Einstein, Bohr and Feynman gathered in a room and meditated, they would not be productive.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume

Last edited by acbytesla; 29th December 2017 at 05:54 PM.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2017, 05:48 PM   #84
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,579
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Or you can keep spinning your wheels and hoping that the answer is coming someday...
"I don't know" is a perfectly scientific answer.

"I don't know, therefore insert woo of choice" most certainly is not. You should know this by now.

And it isn't a case of spinning one's wheels at all because the answers are being discovered as we speak. Tough luck.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2017, 05:53 PM   #85
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 16,756
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Or you can keep spinning your wheels and hoping that the answer is coming someday...
It has nothing to do with hope. It has to do with the track record. Whereas science hasn't provided answers for ever question we have, it's track record of success is real. In contrast, woo has provided answers for NOTHING and likely never will.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2017, 08:22 PM   #86
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,614
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It has nothing to do with hope. It has to do with the track record. Whereas science hasn't provided answers for ever question we have, it's track record of success is real. In contrast, woo has provided answers for NOTHING and likely never will.
I think we should leave it at: you have faith in the scientific track record; and I think past performance is no guarantee of future results.

I think [ETA] that sums things up pretty nicely.

Last edited by Fudbucker; 29th December 2017 at 08:35 PM.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2017, 08:42 PM   #87
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 16,756
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I think we should leave it at: you have faith in the scientific track record;
It's not faith. Faith is the answer people give when they don't have a good reason. Because if you had a good reason you wouldn't need faith.

It's an understanding of reality. Science is the only method to date that has any success and woo has successfully answered nothing. Sure, it's possible that science may not be able to come up with the answer, but there is virtually no chance that woo will answer this question or any question.
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
and I think past performance is no guarantee of future results.

I think whats sums things up pretty nicely.
It may not be a guarantee, but it's pretty damn close. I'll hitch my wagon every time to the one method we know has the best chance at success to the other method which has never ever been successful.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume

Last edited by acbytesla; 29th December 2017 at 09:20 PM.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 01:02 AM   #88
Minoosh
Philosopher
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,901
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Materialism has no room for gods, obviously, so if materialism leads to an absurdity, as I believe it does, the other two models become more believable.
Does materialism also fail to explain the origin of life? Because that strikes me as a more basic question: Create some primordial ooze, add sunlight and presto! Life! And if you believe in inanimate material suddenly becoming alive,you're practically going from materialist to dualist to theist right there.

So: Is the origin of life question also unsolvable, in the way that you believe the origin of consciousness is unsolvable?

I don't find materialism to be all that satisfying, philosophically. Do you believe that before there was conscious meat, there was unconscious meat; is it only in the higher animals that you see any necessity for a dualistic world view? What about during the dinosaur era, did the so-called problem of consciousness exist?

I like the idea of there being a body and soul, but I can't say when a body becomes ensouled. Materialism is all-of-a-piece; there is no metaphysical threshold (that I know of) that needs to be bridged. It leads to a more coherent picture, IMO. I ran around with a consciousness crowd for a while, the dualistic, non-emergent, anti-AI wing. They were a mix of serious theorists and New Age types, but not many doing hard-core neuroscience.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 02:47 AM   #89
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,921
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I look forward to hearing your explanation as to how brains produce consciousness, given all this research you talk about.

And let me ask an obvious question: how will you know if a machine is conscious or not?

And let me ask another obvious question: what is consciousness?
Why do you ask me? It seems you deny consciousness exists, for you can't define or detect it. If you are right, then there is nothing to be explained.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 04:22 AM   #90
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,921
In other context, I was just reminded of Clarke's First Law, and I think it applies here:
"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, they are almost certainly right. When they state that something is impossible, they are very probably wrong."
I realize that none of us probably is a distinguished but elderly scientist, but the second half of the law I think applies to non-distinguished, non-elderly non-scientists as well.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 05:07 AM   #91
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 12,131
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post

I think we should look in areas that might seem ridiculous. Ridiculous things sometimes turn out to be true.

Other people (mostly cranks) are starting to go this route: https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science...ous-ncna772956[/quote]
__________________
"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave
John Jones is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 06:44 AM   #92
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 23,165
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
..........I like the idea of there being a body and soul.........
This is all you've got in support of the idea of the existence of souls. It's all anyone has got.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 07:02 AM   #93
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,158
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Science doesn't know, but the key is I believe science won't ever know. It's unequipped to solve that one.
[Snip]
Materialism has no room for gods, obviously, so if materialism leads to an absurdity, as I believe it does, the other two models become more believable.
There is no absurdity. Its just your personal unsupported belief that consciousness can't arise from organisation in matter.
"I don't want to believe that" isn't an argument.

And you throw around this challenge to science to define consciousness for you, as if that somehow strengthens your position.
If you don't even have a working definition, how can you claim that consciousness is outside the scope of scientific understanding?
Porpoise of Life is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 07:43 AM   #94
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 81,312
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
...snip....

If materialism is true, then consciousness arising from a lump of meat is an ongoing miracle which science has utterly failed to explain. And probably never will.
You are confusing your lack of knowledge and understanding for the current state of understanding behaviours such as "consciousness".
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 08:35 AM   #95
Bikewer
Penultimate Amazing
 
Bikewer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: St. Louis, Mo.
Posts: 12,207
Neuroscience is a subject of interest to me, and I subscribe to a couple of neuroscience blogs on Tumblr. They are both quite active.
I also just read the Robert Ornstein book, “The Evolution of Consciousness” which explores the subject in some detail.

While contemporary neuroscience, like contemporary cosmology and astrophysics, can’t tell us everything about how our little “3-pound universes” work, we are gaining more and more knowledge of these things on an ongoing basis.

It’s been said that we’ve learned more about brain function in the last 10 years than we have in all of previous history.

In all of that, I’ve never seen even the slightest indication that anything other than the electrochemical activity of “The most complex stuff in the universe” is necessary to explain consciousness.
To all evidence it’s tied inextricably to the activity of the brain, which is easily demonstrated by the profound effects on consciousness that occur when one tampers with or damages the brain.
Damage this area...That bit of function is lost. Stimulate that area, a memory may be reliably elicited. Introduce psychoactive chemicals, and predictable effects occur. Alter the brain’s internal chemical balances even slightly, and profound effects may occur. Just drop the blood-sugar level a few points and the person becomes incoherent, confused, and eventually unconscious.
The overall solution to the so-called “hard problem” of consciousness may be as knotty as is the nature of the Dark Matter.... But it’s in the area of neuroscience that it will be sussed out, not spiritual mumbo-jumbo.
Bikewer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 10:03 AM   #96
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 16,756
Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
Neuroscience is a subject of interest to me, and I subscribe to a couple of neuroscience blogs on Tumblr. They are both quite active.
I also just read the Robert Ornstein book, “The Evolution of Consciousness” which explores the subject in some detail.

While contemporary neuroscience, like contemporary cosmology and astrophysics, can’t tell us everything about how our little “3-pound universes” work, we are gaining more and more knowledge of these things on an ongoing basis.

It’s been said that we’ve learned more about brain function in the last 10 years than we have in all of previous history.

In all of that, I’ve never seen even the slightest indication that anything other than the electrochemical activity of “The most complex stuff in the universe” is necessary to explain consciousness.
To all evidence it’s tied inextricably to the activity of the brain, which is easily demonstrated by the profound effects on consciousness that occur when one tampers with or damages the brain.
Damage this area...That bit of function is lost. Stimulate that area, a memory may be reliably elicited. Introduce psychoactive chemicals, and predictable effects occur. Alter the brain’s internal chemical balances even slightly, and profound effects may occur. Just drop the blood-sugar level a few points and the person becomes incoherent, confused, and eventually unconscious.
The overall solution to the so-called “hard problem” of consciousness may be as knotty as is the nature of the Dark Matter.... But it’s in the area of neuroscience that it will be sussed out, not spiritual mumbo-jumbo.
Thank you for this post. I've never really thought this was an unsolvable mystery.

I'm convinced that life and consciousness is all about the right recipe. Put the proper ingredients together under the right conditions and life will materialise every time. And given enough time and the right conditions simple life will eventually evolve into more complex life and that life will develop consciousness.

That we don't know today precisely what those conditions exactly are is not a failure of science. Things take time and require resources and the right technology and some times that technology hasn't been invented as of yet.

Man is in his technological infancy. I think about the massive amount of knowledge we have acquired in just the last few years and I am awestruck. But we didn't get here with mumbo jumbo.

There is no evidence of a universal consciousness or spirit. And more importantly, why would anyone think there is?
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 10:49 AM   #97
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 30,086
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
It certainly does matter. If materialism leads to an absurd conclusion, like the existence of conscious pieces of meat, it's devastating for the theory.
Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
Am I the only one that doesn't find "conscious pieces of meat" to be an absurd conclusion?

I mean, they're all around me. I am one. Why would I find it absurd? This seems like an argument from incredulity, like he's just trying to word it in a way that sounds strange even though it's an incredibly normal thing.

Calling them "pieces of meat" makes them sound like dead slabs of steak or something, and I agree that would be absurd. But we're talking about living brains, right? That's not absurd at all.

http://www.terrybisson.com/page6/page6.html
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 01:49 PM   #98
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,645
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
It certainly does matter. If materialism leads to an absurd conclusion, like the existence of conscious pieces of meat, it's devastating for the theory. I think it reached that point long ago. Consciousness has always been the achilles heel of materialism.

Well to me the idea of consciousness being achieved by a non material being is far more absurd.

Oh, but hang on we can always bring in the "this is God we are talking about and we just don't understand it" clause. That's taken care of that.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 01:56 PM   #99
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 30,086
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well to me the idea of consciousness being achieved by a non material being is far more absurd.

Oh, but hang on we can always bring in the "this is God we are talking about and we just don't understand it" clause. That's taken care of that.

But as Fudbucker said, "the problem is that there should have been hints of an explanation after all this time." And religion has had a lot more time than science to come up with a hint of an explanation.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 02:12 PM   #100
Donn
Philosopher
 
Donn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,758
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I think it would be a catastrophic failure if materialism continues to come up empty trying to explain something as fundamental as consciousness. I would eventually start looking at other theories, wouldn't you?
You'd look into the ridiculous and, to start making sense of it, find... dah-dah-dah-dah-bam-ting! You're back to the old sciency ways.

What tedious hypocrisy; that you couldn't bear the courage of your conniptions!
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett
"If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans
"I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat
Donn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 02:12 PM   #101
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 23,165
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
......If materialism leads to an absurd conclusion, like the existence of conscious pieces of meat, it's devastating for the theory. I think it reached that point long ago.
I've highlighted the only important words in these two sentences.


Quote:
Consciousness has always been the achilles heel of materialism.
You are projecting your ignorance here, in the course of stating something as fact for which there is no evidence.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 02:47 PM   #102
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 7,933
I think, therefore, I am

This is all I need to know about conciousness
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 02:48 PM   #103
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 16,756
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
It certainly does matter. If materialism leads to an absurd conclusion, like the existence of conscious pieces of meat, it's devastating for the theory. I think it reached that point long ago. Consciousness has always been the achilles heel of materialism.
This makes no sense at all. Materialism is the only thing that explains the conscious pieces of meat. We know of NO such thing as a conscious that exists without an organic entity associated with it. Consciousness is NOT an Achilles heel of materialism.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 03:06 PM   #104
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 7,933
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
This makes no sense at all. Materialism is the only thing that explains the conscious pieces of meat. We know of NO such thing as a conscious that exists without an organic entity associated with it. Consciousness is NOT an Achilles heel of materialism.
Well, it could be, for those who are obsessed with knowing why consciousness exists (usually the same people who accept the existence of invisible sky deities without any evidence or proof).

For mine, conciousness is something I experience. It exists, and I don't much care why. If it didn't exist, well we would not be having this discussion.
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 04:19 PM   #105
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,614
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
This makes no sense at all. Materialism is the only thing that explains the conscious pieces of meat.
Actually, materialism has so far failed to explain this, which is the whole point of the thread.

Quote:
We know of NO such thing as a conscious that exists without an organic entity associated with it.
Which does not mean that no such thing exists. There are a lot of things whose existence, when we learned of it, surprised us.

Quote:
Consciousness is NOT an Achilles heel of materialism.
I disagree.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 04:21 PM   #106
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,614
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
But as Fudbucker said, "the problem is that there should have been hints of an explanation after all this time." And religion has had a lot more time than science to come up with a hint of an explanation.
This is wasted on me, I'm not a theist. My point is that materialist-based science has failed on this. Some people are hypothesizing a possible consciousness field that permeates the universe. Research along those lines might turn up interesting results.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 04:39 PM   #107
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,653
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
This is wasted on me, I'm not a theist.
You sure smell like one.

Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
My point is that materialist-based science has failed on this.
And I thought you don’t fail until you give up. I don’t see materialist-based science giving up any time soon.

Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Some people are hypothesizing a possible consciousness field that permeates the universe. Research along those lines might turn up interesting results.
Only if The Universe turns out to be an omnipresent brain.

Keep looking, I’m sure you will eventually find the god you desperately seek (if you haven't already).

Cosmic consciousness - A god by any other name . . .
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.

Last edited by ynot; 30th December 2017 at 04:45 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 05:47 PM   #108
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 16,756
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Actually, materialism has so far failed to explain this, which is the whole point of the thread.
Of COURSE IT HAS. Can you identify a single item anywhere that you KNOW to have a conscious that doesn't have a living organism associated with it? Therefore the material is necessary for consciousness.

Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Which does not mean that no such thing exists. There are a lot of things whose existence, when we learned of it, surprised us.
By that logic, you can postulate that fairies, Big Foot and cow farts are the source of consciousness. There IS ABSOLUTELY no reason to believe that these things are true anymore than the horse manure you are putting stock in.


Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I disagree.
So what? So you disagree? You can believe in all kinds of things. That doesn't make them true.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 07:01 PM   #109
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,579
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
This is wasted on me, I'm not a theist. My point is that materialist-based science has failed on this. Some people are hypothesizing a possible consciousness field that permeates the universe. Research along those lines might turn up interesting results.
Well, since you claim that materialism cannot explain consciousness, let's hear your explanation. Do you have one? Of course not.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 08:00 PM   #110
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 16,756
A perfect analogy

Fud seems to believe because we don't have a detailed answer for what causes consciousness and despite every clue pointing toward a material association that we look for an answer in the universe instead.

This is like proposing that since you can't find your keys, you should look half way around the world in places you have never been as opposed to continuing your search in the places you frequent.

Granted you may be frustrated since you haven't found them, but that doesn't justify going off on a wild goose chase.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 08:45 PM   #111
Loss Leader
Do you want to date my Avatar?
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 25,140
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Or you can keep spinning your wheels and hoping that the answer is coming someday...

... as opposed to religion where new information comes never.
__________________
I have the honor to be
Your Obdt. St

L. Leader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 09:30 PM   #112
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,688
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Really? I know I'm conscious because of science? I kind of took that for granted. Most of the important things I know are through self-discovery. Those truths are heard-earned. What flavor quarks make up a proton? Kind of trivial.
I don't claim to know I am conscious.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 09:55 PM   #113
Loss Leader
Do you want to date my Avatar?
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 25,140
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't claim to know I am conscious.

According to Richard Linklater, flip the lightswitch. You can't turn lights on or off in your dreams.

I have no idea if this is true or how anybody could possibly know it. Still, it's in a Richard Linklater movie, so it must be genius.
__________________
I have the honor to be
Your Obdt. St

L. Leader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 09:56 PM   #114
Minoosh
Philosopher
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,901
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
There is no evidence of a universal consciousness or spirit. And more importantly, why would anyone think there is?
Because we experience our own personalities, and the personalities of our loved ones, so powerfully that it's hard to believe that all of this dies with brain death. You sit with someone dying; at some point they're "gone," and maybe we instinctively believe they've gone somewhere?

I never saw the "big problem" nature of consciousness. I wasn't sure there was anything to explain. I did not know of any reason that an organism would not become self-aware, maybe as an evolutionary strategy.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 01:15 AM   #115
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 10,248
I'm not sure consciousness is such a big deal anyway. It obviously seems important to us, but most animals manage perfectly well without it. The more we find out about how the brain works the less of a big deal it becomes, seeming to be little more than a thin veneer on the unconscious workings of the brain with far less of a role to play in decision making, for example, than we'd previously assumed.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 01:58 AM   #116
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,158
So, Fudbucker, all you have to discount materialism is your personal incredulity.

Could you perhaps explain why you think science will never be able to research consciousness?
Your previous 'explanation' that science isn't equipped for it isn't an explanation, just a rephrasing of your claim.

And could you point us to a system with a better track record for finding answers about the way things work?
Porpoise of Life is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 03:00 AM   #117
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 30,086
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
This is wasted on me, I'm not a theist. My point is that materialist-based science has failed on this. Some people are hypothesizing a possible consciousness field that permeates the universe. Research along those lines might turn up interesting results.

How do you plan researching it without involving materialism?
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 03:30 AM   #118
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,653
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Because we experience our own personalities, and the personalities of our loved ones, so powerfully that it's hard to believe that all of this dies with brain death. You sit with someone dying; at some point they're "gone," and maybe we instinctively believe they've gone somewhere?
Nothing more than an emotionally comforting denial of an unpalatable reality.
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 03:35 AM   #119
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,653
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
How do you plan researching it without involving materialism?
Don’t think metaphysical enlightenment is the result of research.
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 04:07 AM   #120
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 30,086
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Don’t think metaphysical enlightenment is the result of research.

But it produces marvellously detailed descriptions of the Emperor's feathered hat. It might even finally answer the question of what colour Russell's teapot is.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:10 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.