ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags !MOD BOX WARNING!

Reply
Old 11th January 2018, 03:16 PM   #361
Cain
Straussian
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,293
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think they might be, to be fair.

A cause needs publicity - sexy dresses garner publicity.

It also enforces the point that it doesn't, ever, matter what she's wearing. The only time she's asking for it is if she says 'May I have it please', or some variation thereof.

I don't think sexy dresses are the problem (unless there are misunderstandings about when and what one is allowed to look at, but I'm not going there)
Yeah, maybe. Now that I think about it, this particular industry has done a good job dealing with sexual harassment. I welcome their insights.
__________________
April 13th, 2018:
Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years.
Cain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 03:19 PM   #362
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19,015
Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Point 1. Most humans, outside of those that argue about stuff on the internet as a substitution for real human interactions like... well us, are not emotionless autistic introverted robots that are going to treat an escalating sexual encounter with a flow chart. Human interaction, especially in the realm of sexuality, is always going to depend at least somewhat on inference, subtle cues, body language, non-verbal communications, and the like. The idea that romantic encounters actually using explicit, spoken requests for and explicit, spoken approvals of each individual action or "level" of the physical encounter is ever going to become the norm is a ludicrous Tumblr fantasy that I feel is mostly being played up by the "lookit at me being more progressive than you" crowd. I mean people have ever had a human relationship and not just read about them online have to know that humans just don't operate that way.

Point 2. That being said I feel like Point 1 is actually not that big of deal I really don't think most people out there really have a hard time just flat out saying "No" when they don't want the sexual encounter to begin/continue and in that case all the nuance and grey area go out the window. The idea that there are people out that really "hazy" on whether or not their partner wants to have sex is a problem of any degree we have to worry about seems.... unlikely to me.
No, they don't. I agree. But there are definitely women that have difficulty saying no. Either they don't want to be mean or they don't know what they want.

I remember very well being interested in a woman that worked in the tech department of the computer company I worked for. I definitely was interested. She was attractive , smart and seemed confident. In fact, she was a graduate from Yale. She was nice to me and i flirted with her trying to see if she might be interested in me. The result? I was called in to HR and warned about sexual harassment. From that moment on I made it a habit to limit my interactions with her and only discuss professional matters. The result? I was called in to HR for being mean to her which I wasn't. I hate being in a can't win situation.

Had she been direct with me that she wasn't interested, I may have been disappointed but I would have respected her wishes and just chalked it up to her bad taste. I certainly wouldn't have been mad at her.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume

Last edited by acbytesla; 11th January 2018 at 03:26 PM.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 03:29 PM   #363
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 22,318
Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Point 1. Most humans, outside of those that argue about stuff on the internet as a substitution for real human interactions like... well us, are not emotionless autistic introverted robots that are going to treat an escalating sexual encounter with a flow chart. Human interaction, especially in the realm of sexuality, is always going to depend at least somewhat on inference, subtle cues, body language, non-verbal communications, and the like.
Unfortunately people suck at interpreting those non-verbal cues because there is a self-serving motivation to infer consent for escalation in all cases that aren't explicit and verbal "no"s. That is the fatal flaw with this wonderland of "subtle cues" and seduction; you're able to interpret them however you want, irrespective of the originator's intent (because you have plausible deniability of knowing it). The aggressively horny often feel free to proceed upon what they believe to be a "subtle cue" of interest or consent, while at the same time feeling free to ignore a "subtle cue" of disinterest because either there's no such thing, or it's "not really a no" - too "subtle" to definitively put the brakes on.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 03:36 PM   #364
mike81
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 477
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Unfortunately people suck at interpreting those non-verbal cues because there is a self-serving motivation to infer consent for escalation in all cases that aren't explicit and verbal "no"s. That is the fatal flaw with this wonderland of "subtle cues" and seduction; you're able to interpret them however you want, irrespective of the originator's intent (because you have plausible deniability of knowing it). The aggressively horny often feel free to proceed upon what they believe to be a "subtle cue" of interest or consent, while at the same time feeling free to ignore a "subtle cue" of disinterest because either there's no such thing, or it's "not really a no" - too "subtle" to definitively put the brakes on.
Is it a man misinterpreting when she agrees to do a nude scene and then later accuses him of something? Is it misinterpreting when a man and woman are kissing or otherwise having a good time, he goes further, and she does too, but later cries assault?
mike81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 03:38 PM   #365
autumn1971
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,413
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No no no. There is nothing shameful about being a slut. Why is there a negative connotation if a woman is promiscuous, but not for a man?

What I'm speaking about is clarity and that women have a responsibility to be clear.
And if they want to be accepted by society men have a responsibility to not be raging douche-canoes.
It is really not difficult.
__________________
'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."'
-The Bard
autumn1971 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 03:45 PM   #366
mike81
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 477
Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
And if they want to be accepted by society men have a responsibility to not be raging douche-canoes.
It is really not difficult.
Do women have any responsibility in all this? How about say no or otherwise make it clear when you don't want something? How about don't go along with something, seem to be having a good time, and then later cry assault? It's really not that difficult.

Last edited by mike81; 11th January 2018 at 03:48 PM.
mike81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 03:48 PM   #367
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 22,318
Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Is it a man misinterpreting when she agrees to do a nude scene and then later accuses him of something? Is it misinterpreting when a man and woman are kissing or otherwise having a good time, he goes further, and she does too, but later cries assault?
I would say that if after the deed is "done" the man is thinking "a good time was had by all" and the woman is calling the police, it seems fairly obvious he missed something pretty damn important, yes.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 03:49 PM   #368
mike81
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 477
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I would say that if after the deed is "done" the man is thinking "a good time was had by all" and the woman is calling the police, it seems fairly obvious he missed something pretty damn important, yes.
Because it couldn't be that the woman is just a liar trying to ruin someone's life? It has to somehow be his fault?
mike81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 03:53 PM   #369
autumn1971
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,413
Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Do women have any responsibility in all this? How about say no or otherwise make it clear when you don't want something? How about don't go along with something, seem to be having a good time, and then later cry assault? It's really not that difficult.
The "And" was not an accident.
__________________
'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."'
-The Bard
autumn1971 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 03:58 PM   #370
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 22,318
Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Because it couldn't be that the woman is just a liar trying to ruin someone's life? It has to somehow be his fault?
Women are informed all the time that they are expected to look after their own safety by "avoiding situations" that might end in a man having sex with them when they don't want it. Maybe this is the other side of that coin; men should also look after their own safety by avoiding situations that might end in having sex with a woman that they're not considerably confident won't call the police on them afterwards.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 03:59 PM   #371
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 13,283
You know I think there really are some legit criticisms to be had as to how the broad movement against sexual harassment is painting men. Some of the language and arguments used to bother me despite how supportive I am of the overall movement.

And it would be a lot easier to argue these points if the "Evil temptress seducing men and crying rape" argument wasn't brought out so often.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 04:02 PM   #372
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19,015
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I would say that if after the deed is "done" the man is thinking "a good time was had by all" and the woman is calling the police, it seems fairly obvious he missed something pretty damn important, yes.
And yet they usually don't call the police. Most rapes are not reported. Real rape should be reported. But what seems to be happening now is men are being taken to task for clumsy attempts at seduction.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 04:10 PM   #373
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19,015
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Women are informed all the time that they are expected to look after their own safety by "avoiding situations" that might end in a man having sex with them when they don't want it. Maybe this is the other side of that coin; men should also look after their own safety by avoiding situations that might end in having sex with a woman that they're not considerably confident won't call the police on them afterwards.
Really? And how would you spot that? And BTW, that isn't what seems to be happening in this movement. Men aren't going to jail and with the exception of a few of these men like Cosby, Weinstein and a couple of others, they aren't be accused of rape.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 04:10 PM   #374
mike81
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 477
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
men should also look after their own safety by avoiding situations that might end in having sex with a woman that they're not considerably confident won't call the police on them afterwards.
So never try to have sex or be sexual? You can be considerably confident (as it seems to be in the Franco case) and still have some liar try to ruin you. I don't believe this is some isolated incident either. I have many reasons for believing it.
mike81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 04:17 PM   #375
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,448
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No, they don't. I agree. But there are definitely women that have difficulty saying no. Either they don't want to be mean or they don't know what they want.

I remember very well being interested in a woman that worked in the tech department of the computer company I worked for. I definitely was interested. She was attractive , smart and seemed confident. In fact, she was a graduate from Yale. She was nice to me and i flirted with her trying to see if she might be interested in me. The result? I was called in to HR and warned about sexual harassment. From that moment on I made it a habit to limit my interactions with her and only discuss professional matters. The result? I was called in to HR for being mean to her which I wasn't. I hate being in a can't win situation.

Had she been direct with me that she wasn't interested, I may have been disappointed but I would have respected her wishes and just chalked it up to her bad taste. I certainly wouldn't have been mad at her.
I can see that. At the same time, too many men do take rejection as an affront to their egos. When a woman politely rejects their advances they are mad. When a woman is more firm, they are mad. That anger often takes the form of office gossip, rudeness, etc. Many women feel like they are in a "can't win" situation as well, which leads to situations like you describe.

It is really impossible to navigate these waters sometimes. I work for a doctor who is married to a physician assistant at his practice. They met after she was hired -his flirting was reciprocated and it worked out for them. Another doctor in the practice flirted with a medical assistant but she felt uncomfortable. Instead of telling him, because she was intimidated, she complained to another doctor and he was told to knock it off. Most of us are at work 8 hours a day or more so it's natural that we find love there but it's such a minefield. So many relationships start in workplaces; so much harassment happens in workplaces.

I think it starts with clearly defining harassment and affording both parties equal respect. Normal flirting is not harassment. Continuing after the other party has said, "I'm not interested, please stop," is. Taking actions that are a detriment to the other party after being rejected is harassment, but simply keeping your distance and remaining professional is not. We shouldn't automatically assume that the guy is harassing when he might just be flirting and gauging interest like a normal person. We should also hold women responsible for being clear and direct in the face of such courting.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 04:18 PM   #376
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 29,691
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Women are informed all the time that they are expected to look after their own safety by "avoiding situations" that might end in a man having sex with them when they don't want it. Maybe this is the other side of that coin; men should also look after their own safety by avoiding situations that might end in having sex with a woman that they're not considerably confident won't call the police on them afterwards.
I feel like "don't put your dick in crazy" is a fairly well-communicated cultural value for men.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 04:33 PM   #377
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 14,870
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm not sure what your point is. The analogy doesn't really work. The problem isn't with the looker. If you're going to wear clothes that are provocative you can expect people to look, even ogle.

I never got the obsession with not being looked at. Humans are sexual creatures, they're going to look at something that catches their attention and stimulates the sexual centers in the brain. And anyone who tells you that women are not every bit as bad as guys in that respect are either lying or profoundly ignorant. Women can be and sometimes are just as bad as men; because they're just as human as men.

In this case, the woman's response was excessive and likely unnecessary, although given the current environment, I can't say I don't understand her feelings on the matter. It sounds like a pre-emptive way to put off a potential creeper. Because that is the kind of world women live in right now.

I agree that simply looking shouldn't be a crime. Simply being looked at like that should be something that we, as humans, find flattering. But our culture is such a huge mess, sexually, that it's hard to divorce looking from acting, because the two are so commonly intertwined, so it's understandable that some people will over-react to being oogled.

As for the rest of this nonsense, as noted, we live in a culture that is a mess, sexually. We're still not entirely beyond the days of religious repression of sexuality, particularly female sexuality, so that continues to inform both sides of the issue.

As for the "do I have to ask every time?", well, I would say that if you have to ask that question, then yes, you bloody well should. As humans, we should be able to be mature enough to treat each other with respect, say what's on our minds clearly and unambiguously, and take "no" for an answer with grace and dignity. No messing about with ambiguous "signals" or stupid cultural stereotypes of men or women.

And as for idiots who think that "if men aren't allowed to be sexually aggressive then the race will die out", you're definitely part of the problem, and are the ones who need to die out. Women are perfectly capable of being sexually aggressive when they want to be, when they aren't beaten down by a culture which demeans and demonizes women who want to have some measure of control over their own sexuality. And that measure of control means not only the right to initiate sexual contact, and not only the right to say "no", but it also means the right to not have guys pawing at them and "whipping out their junk" without a clear and unambiguous invitation.

Women are still having to put up with a whole lot of sexual crap from men, and yes, the constant fear that some guy will decide to not take no for an answer, and there will be substantial harm to them either physically, financially, or socially as a result, is very much a real one for most women, since a whole lot of men are too childish and self-centered to accept that they do not control women's sexuality. Maybe not the majority (the jury is still out on that one), but a very sizable minority in my experience. Certainly a disturbing number of people here are demonstrating just how prevalent the problem still is.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 04:33 PM   #378
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19,015
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Unfortunately people suck at interpreting those non-verbal cues because there is a self-serving motivation to infer consent for escalation in all cases that aren't explicit and verbal "no"s. That is the fatal flaw with this wonderland of "subtle cues" and seduction; you're able to interpret them however you want, irrespective of the originator's intent (because you have plausible deniability of knowing it). The aggressively horny often feel free to proceed upon what they believe to be a "subtle cue" of interest or consent, while at the same time feeling free to ignore a "subtle cue" of disinterest because either there's no such thing, or it's "not really a no" - too "subtle" to definitively put the brakes on.
In my late teens and early twenties, you could easily describe me as aggressively horny. I certainly was a bit oblivious to 'subtle cues'. Also, back in those days, it almost seemed as if women were expected to resist our advances. Playing hard to get was part of the female playbook. Now maybe, that has changed since I haven't been 'out there' in a long time.

The joke was
stop, don't, stop,
don't, stop..
stop, don't..please
don't...stop.
don't stop
Please ... Don't Stop!!
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 04:42 PM   #379
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 83,526
Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Point 1. Most humans, outside of those that argue about stuff on the internet as a substitution for real human interactions like... well us, are not emotionless autistic introverted robots that are going to treat an escalating sexual encounter with a flow chart. Human interaction, especially in the realm of sexuality, is always going to depend at least somewhat on inference, subtle cues, body language, non-verbal communications, and the like. The idea that romantic encounters actually using explicit, spoken requests for and explicit, spoken approvals of each individual action or "level" of the physical encounter is ever going to become the norm is a ludicrous Tumblr fantasy that I feel is mostly being played up by the "lookit at me being more progressive than you" crowd. I mean people have ever had a human relationship and not just read about them online have to know that humans just don't operate that way.

Point 2. That being said I feel like Point 1 is actually not that big of deal I really don't think most people out there really have a hard time just flat out saying "No" when they don't want the sexual encounter to begin/continue and in that case all the nuance and grey area go out the window. The idea that there are people out that really "hazy" on whether or not their partner wants to have sex is a problem of any degree we have to worry about seems.... unlikely to me.
I've said similar myself and once again a thread has gone entirely of the rails. the #me2 is not about someone looking at someone it is about people in power knowingly using their power to coerce people into having sex with them, or using their position of power to ignore that consent is required.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 04:56 PM   #380
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 74,896
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
In this case, the woman's response was excessive and likely unnecessary, although given the current environment, I can't say I don't understand her feelings on the matter. It sounds like a pre-emptive way to put off a potential creeper. Because that is the kind of world women live in right now.
Or rather, the world they've been told they live in. I don't think men are any more or any less creeps than they used to be.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 05:01 PM   #381
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 69,541
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That's great Ginger. But my experience is your view has been the minority. I have asked women what they think about a man asking that exact same question and have been told that it would be a turnoff. That it demonstrates a lack of confidence and nothing is a bigger turnoff for them.
Maybe it depends on where and how one asks.

But no matter, I'm not arguing verbal permission is a requirement.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 05:17 PM   #382
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19,015
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Maybe it depends on where and how one asks.

But no matter, I'm not arguing verbal permission is a requirement.
Yea, this is one of those questions where I find myself on both sides. Everything is how you do it. I'll tell you what though. Nothing is cooler for a man then when a woman makes the move and approaches us. I can't say that happened all that often in my life but I loved it when it did.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 07:10 PM   #383
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 14,870
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I don't think men are any more or any less creeps than they used to be.

See, that's exactly the problem, men are emphatically not "any less creeps" than they used to be. The difference is, now women are realizing that they don't have to tolerate men being creeps anymore, that they can actually do something about it; and creeper men are getting all butthurt that they can't sleaze on women anymore without being called on their ****** behaviour and treated like the pieces of **** they are.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 07:20 PM   #384
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 18,311
10 pages in one day. Must be a sex thread.

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I would say that if after the deed is "done" the man is thinking "a good time was had by all" and the woman is calling the police, it seems fairly obvious he missed something pretty damn important, yes.
Did he "miss" it? Or would he have required psychic powers to catch it?
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 07:31 PM   #385
I Am The Scum
Illuminator
 
I Am The Scum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,479
If I may commit the egregious act going back to the original topic...

Several posters have claimed that the #metoo campaign has gone "too far." Apparently some women are saying that even staring at cleavage is being treated as a serious offense, possibly as bad as rape!

Does anybody have any actual examples of this? Even just some random person on Twitter? I suspect that this is mostly imagined.
I Am The Scum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 07:46 PM   #386
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 74,896
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
See, that's exactly the problem, men are emphatically not "any less creeps" than they used to be. The difference is, now women are realizing that they don't have to tolerate men being creeps anymore, that they can actually do something about it; and creeper men are getting all butthurt that they can't sleaze on women anymore without being called on their ****** behaviour and treated like the pieces of **** they are.
Or maybe they're not collectively as much creeps as you'd like to believe.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 07:53 PM   #387
rustypouch
Philosopher
 
rustypouch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 6,713
Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
If I may commit the egregious act going back to the original topic...

Several posters have claimed that the #metoo campaign has gone "too far." Apparently some women are saying that even staring at cleavage is being treated as a serious offense, possibly as bad as rape!

Does anybody have any actual examples of this? Even just some random person on Twitter? I suspect that this is mostly imagined.
I don't know how widespread it is, but it's there.

https://mobile.twitter.com/hashtag/starerape?lang=en

Sent from my Moto X Play using Tapatalk
rustypouch is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 07:59 PM   #388
mike81
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 477
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Or maybe they're not collectively as much creeps as you'd like to believe.
If they're attracted to you, you're not a creep. If they are not, you are. Looking makes you a pervert. We have to be mind readers. We better not dare say some women are liars.
mike81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:03 PM   #389
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19,015
Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
If I may commit the egregious act going back to the original topic...

Several posters have claimed that the #metoo campaign has gone "too far." Apparently some women are saying that even staring at cleavage is being treated as a serious offense, possibly as bad as rape!

Does anybody have any actual examples of this? Even just some random person on Twitter? I suspect that this is mostly imagined.
Is it? Does being a dick or acting stupidly ...not rape...mean that a man's career is over? Louis CK did some very offensive things but he didn't rape anyone. Can he ever have a career again? Or once you've done something stupid, your career is over. Go crawl in a hole?
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:03 PM   #390
mike81
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 477
Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
If I may commit the egregious act going back to the original topic...

Several posters have claimed that the #metoo campaign has gone "too far." Apparently some women are saying that even staring at cleavage is being treated as a serious offense, possibly as bad as rape!

Does anybody have any actual examples of this? Even just some random person on Twitter? I suspect that this is mostly imagined.
Am I also imagining the article by a woman who said anytime a man has sex with her it is rape even if she says yes? Am I also imagining that one of the Franco accusers said she finds ways to ruin people's lives? Am I also imagining the fact that perfectly legal behavior is being made out to be something that is not?
mike81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:07 PM   #391
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 69,541
Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
If I may commit the egregious act going back to the original topic...

Several posters have claimed that the #metoo campaign has gone "too far." Apparently some women are saying that even staring at cleavage is being treated as a serious offense, possibly as bad as rape!

Does anybody have any actual examples of this? Even just some random person on Twitter? I suspect that this is mostly imagined.
I suspect more than a few anecdotal urban myths have been posted here. I'd point them out but when people claim to be firsthand witnesses or friends with firsthand witnesses one cannot do that without offending people.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:08 PM   #392
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 69,541
Originally Posted by rustypouch View Post
I don't know how widespread it is, but it's there.

https://mobile.twitter.com/hashtag/starerape?lang=en
I don't think a bunch of Twitter anecdotes qualify as evidence.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:18 PM   #393
I Am The Scum
Illuminator
 
I Am The Scum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,479
Originally Posted by rustypouch View Post
I don't know how widespread it is, but it's there.

https://mobile.twitter.com/hashtag/starerape?lang=en

Sent from my Moto X Play using Tapatalk
I honestly couldn't find any non-sarcastic examples after browsing through 30 or so tweets.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Is it? Does being a dick or acting stupidly ...not rape...mean that a man's career is over? Louis CK did some very offensive things but he didn't rape anyone. Can he ever have a career again? Or once you've done something stupid, your career is over. Go crawl in a hole?
So are we in agreement that this has nothing to do with women being stared at?

Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Am I also imagining the article by a woman who said anytime a man has sex with her it is rape even if she says yes? Am I also imagining that one of the Franco accusers said she finds ways to ruin people's lives? Am I also imagining the fact that perfectly legal behavior is being made out to be something that is not?
I don't know if you are imagining it. I asked for actual examples. If you provided some, I could answer your question.
I Am The Scum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:23 PM   #394
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 20,781
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Louis CK did some very offensive things but he didn't rape anyone. Can he ever have a career again? Or once you've done something stupid, your career is over. Go crawl in a hole?
That is an open question since the career-smashed sex scandal thing is somewhat new. We don't know what the future holds for these guys.

But one thing can be said. Many if not most of these guys are already filthy rich when they fall. They could immediately retire and still live out their lives in upper class. IOW, "I lost my job forever and was left with only $50 million!"
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:29 PM   #395
I Am The Scum
Illuminator
 
I Am The Scum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,479
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't think a bunch of Twitter anecdotes qualify as evidence.
To be fair, I did say even random examples on Twitter were acceptable. However, the provided example doesn't quite cut it. If you sort by date, you will see that #starerape is used maybe 5 times a month at the most. And as stated, the majority of them are making fun of something that maybe a few people actually believe. Based on what has been provided, it is a very clear case of disproportionate response. It certainly does not lend credence to the case that #metoo has gone too far. In the absence of further evidence, #starerape can be safely dismissed as a cause for concern.
I Am The Scum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:30 PM   #396
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 69,541
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Is it? Does being a dick or acting stupidly ...not rape...mean that a man's career is over? Louis CK did some very offensive things but he didn't rape anyone. Can he ever have a career again? Or once you've done something stupid, your career is over. Go crawl in a hole?
I'm pretty sure whacking off in front of women while you block the door so they can't leave qualifies as assault.

Gawker originally broke the story in 2012 and claimed there were many allegations that this is common practice for the comic.

The one thing in these accusations that I find make them credible is when you hear enough comments that "everybody knew". That has been said about LouisCK.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:35 PM   #397
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 69,541
Just to be clear here, we seriously do need to distinguish between claims of being stared at, & assertions of using one's tongue in an acting kiss that was denied, which should not be career ending incidences even if they occurred, and the actual problem accusations like jerking off in front of women and suggesting the casting couch can advance their careers.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:37 PM   #398
Pterodactyl
Graduate Poster
 
Pterodactyl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,022
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Just to be clear here, we seriously do need to distinguish between claims of being stared at, & assertions of using one's tongue in an acting kiss that was denied, which should not be career ending incidences even if they occurred, and the actual problem accusations like jerking off in front of women and suggesting the casting couch can advance their careers.
Matt Damon thinks so too, but has been widely condemned by the #MeToo moment for suggesting so.
Pterodactyl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:39 PM   #399
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 14,870
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Or maybe they're not collectively as much creeps as you'd like to believe.

Given the number of women I've known who have been sexually harassed and assaulted, and the number of guys I've known who openly bragged about sexually harassing and assaulting women, or otherwise treated women like ****, no, I think guys are at least as much creeps as I've personally observed them to be, very likely more.

Maybe this is yet another case of the blatant, and at this point rather cliche'd, denialism of "It doesn't happen to me, therefore it doesn't exist."
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:40 PM   #400
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 69,541
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Matt Damon thinks so too, but has been widely condemned by the #MeToo moment for suggesting so.
I wasn't aware the #MeToo movement had an official spokesperson.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:26 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.