ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags !MOD BOX WARNING!

Reply
Old 13th February 2018, 06:43 AM   #1761
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,673
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Probably when they started saying people of opinions not their own couldn't speak publicly, tried to make calling someone by their "chosen" pronoun wrong an assault, and starting blaming dudes for all the world's past evils they weren't born at.
They are not trying to make anything bad. Those things are bad and they are raising awareness and holding people accountable for those bad things. There isn't an act of invention.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 06:56 AM   #1762
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,819
A lot of movements and causes have a cutesy-poo insulting term for people who take it too far or too seriously. The Progressive Movement is not so grand and flawless and perfect and holy that it doesn't deserve its own.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 07:22 AM   #1763
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 42,748
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I'm not aware of anyone having their career ended or their life wrecked because of an otherwise unsubstantiated claim of harassment.

Can you provide an example?
Well there are the central park 5, but many of those most critical of the #metoo movement are fine with that like the president who thinks they should still be in prison even after proven innocent.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 07:26 AM   #1764
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 42,748
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And people can stop responding to the very idea that the possibility that there might exist some grey area that could unintentionally or intentionally be misused by just spouting off a list of extreme examples any day now.
But did those women do their job of properly communicating that the advances were unwanted, or did they just grit their teeth and make it all good? Remember silence is consent, that is a very common theme in these discussions.

Or maybe silence isn't consent and the individual has a burden of making sure their advances are not harassment. But that is too much work too.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 07:37 AM   #1765
Stout
Illuminator
 
Stout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,353
Speaking of ruined careers.

Jamie Kilstein rebrands as ďex male feministĒ
Stout is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 08:00 AM   #1766
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,471
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
A lot of movements and causes have a cutesy-poo insulting term for people who take it too far or too seriously. The Progressive Movement is not so grand and flawless and perfect and holy that it doesn't deserve its own.
The trouble is, the phrase "SJW" is applied from everyone from over-strident teenagers (who are then inundated with rape and death threats), to Sargon of Akkad (who once openly mocked a British politician for being sexually assaulted). In other words, it's usually a hypocritical attempt at an ad hominem argument, and less often a mindless insult that doesn't even attempt to argue anything.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 08:01 AM   #1767
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The trouble is, the phrase "SJW" is applied from everyone from over-strident teenagers (who are then inundated with rape and death threats), to Sargon of Akkad (who once openly mocked a British politician for being sexually assaulted). In other words, it's usually a hypocritical attempt at an ad hominem argument, and less often a mindless insult that doesn't even attempt to argue anything.
Sargon being called an SJW is quite ironic given that he sees SJWs in absolutely everything nowadays.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 08:29 AM   #1768
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,660
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Multiple claims. And he admitted culpability in one of them.
What an interesting spin based on choice of words. Some might even call it fabrication on your part. Let's put a little truth back into this, shall we: 6 complaints. 5 complaints found to have no merit. He signed a peace bond and apologized with no admission of guilt. Life and career destroyed.

Quote:
Career not ended. Life not ruined.
It remains to be seen. Definitely a big hiccup in his career based on an accusation that can only be described as buyer's remorse.

Quote:
They were exonerated.
100% false claims, coach forced to resign, lacrosse program shut down. Not a single one of the accused graduated from Duke after the false claims were made.

Quote:
Multiple claims supported by substantiating evidence.
Would that include evidence like at least one of the accusers never attending the school Furlong taught at? Or that not a single accusation had been made against him until a reporter put ads out around a remote village asking if anyone had ever been molested or assaulted by him? Actions which are known to illicit more false claims than true claims? That kind of substantiating evidence?

Quote:
Multiple claims. He admitted they were true.
The claims were true but that doesn't mean they were illegal or even wrong. The accusers consented. He might be guilty of professional misconduct but not of sexual assault or sexual harassment.

Quote:
If these are really the best examples you can come up with, then I'm beginning to detect a whiff of hysteria.
When you have to fabricate facts and spin details to fit your narrative, it is delusional to see hysteria on the part of someone else. I found these people off the top of my head and used them because they are recognised names. It is very easy to find many, many more names of common people falsely accused whose names are not in the public realm. Names like Thomas McGowan, 23 years in prison for a rape he didn't commit.

http://www.govtech.com/dc/articles/D...-After-23.html

I'll bring the names of more over the course of this thread for your education. It will be interesting to see how you spin the facts in each case to make them appear guilty.
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly
The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry
And all you touch, and all you see
Is all your life will ever be."
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 08:50 AM   #1769
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,673
Originally Posted by qayak View Post

The claims were true but that doesn't mean they were illegal or even wrong. The accusers consented. He might be guilty of professional misconduct but not of sexual assault or sexual harassment.
So? Why must it be sexual assault or harassment? What's the problem with it being simply not liking a person's behavior?
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 09:55 AM   #1770
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,819
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The trouble is, the phrase "SJW" is applied from everyone from over-strident teenagers (who are then inundated with rape and death threats), to Sargon of Akkad (who once openly mocked a British politician for being sexually assaulted). In other words, it's usually a hypocritical attempt at an ad hominem argument, and less often a mindless insult that doesn't even attempt to argue anything.
All insults get overused, especially among social and political fandoms.

Slowly the very concept of "Ad Hominem" is being more and more misused to mean any insult or negative comment toward a group.

An insulting phrase can be misused. An insulting phrase can even be "wrong" for however you wish to define it. But not all insults are inherently ad hominems.

Anyone, when faced with an insult or criticism, can give an example of somebody else misusing that insult or criticism. Doesn't mean anything.

Some people see certain progressives as misusing/taking too far/overdoing it/ whatever and have created a term to get that opinion across. That's how language works.

If anything the fact that "SJW" exists separate from "Progressive" says something. Sadly too often the literal, definitive term for the movement/stance itself becomes tainted. At least "SJW" is the term and not just "Progressive" in general. That's something in my book.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 10:08 AM   #1771
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,216
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
What an interesting spin based on choice of words. Some might even call it fabrication on your part. Let's put a little truth back into this, shall we: 6 complaints. 5 complaints found to have no merit. He signed a peace bond and apologized with no admission of guilt. Life and career destroyed.
He behaved inappropriately, by his own admission:
Quote:
The 48-year-old apologized to complainant Kathryn Borel, who waived the publication ban on her name, saying that he regrets that his actions made her feel uncomfortable in the workplace.

The court heard that Ghomeshi has been seeing a therapist for 18 months and will continue to do so.

"No workplace friendship or creative environment excuses this sort of behaviour, especially when there's a power imbalance as there was with Ms. Borel," Ghomeshi told the court.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...bond-1.3575912


Quote:
It remains to be seen. Definitely a big hiccup in his career based on an accusation that can only be described as buyer's remorse.
If it “remains to be seen”, then you probably shouldn’t have included him on your list.

Quote:
100% false claims, coach forced to resign, lacrosse program shut down. Not a single one of the accused graduated from Duke after the false claims were made.
They were given due process and they were exonerated. That’s an example of the system working.

Quote:
Would that include evidence like at least one of the accusers never attending the school Furlong taught at? Or that not a single accusation had been made against him until a reporter put ads out around a remote village asking if anyone had ever been molested or assaulted by him? Actions which are known to illicit more false claims than true claims? That kind of substantiating evidence?
45 witness statements and 8 affidavits. That’s substantiation whether you like it or not.

Quote:
The claims were true but that doesn't mean they were illegal or even wrong. The accusers consented. He might be guilty of professional misconduct but not of sexual assault or sexual harassment.
You are incorrect about the consent, as I demonstrated in this post that you conveniently ignored.

Also, that you think masturbating in front of someone is nothing more than “professional misconduct” is a little disturbing.

Quote:
When you have to fabricate facts and spin details to fit your narrative, it is delusional to see hysteria on the part of someone else. I found these people off the top of my head and used them because they are recognised names. It is very easy to find many, many more names of common people falsely accused whose names are not in the public realm. Names like Thomas McGowan, 23 years in prison for a rape he didn't commit.

http://www.govtech.com/dc/articles/D...-After-23.html

I'll bring the names of more over the course of this thread for your education. It will be interesting to see how you spin the facts in each case to make them appear guilty.
Those are tragic examples of a broken criminal justice system.

Thomas McGowan, for instance, was wrongly imprisoned because a corrupt police department used manipulation and coercion to elicit a false identification from the victim.

What you think this has to do with the #metoo movement, I can’t begin to fathom.

Last edited by johnny karate; 13th February 2018 at 10:38 AM.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 10:42 AM   #1772
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,471
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
All insults get overused, especially among social and political fandoms.
I've never seen it used in any manner except to dismiss an argument. What you call a "misuse" is, in fact, the only common use.

Quote:
Slowly the very concept of "Ad Hominem" is being more and more misused to mean any insult or negative comment toward a group.
Which is why I pointed out that this is the common use when it isn't used as an outright insult. "This person's argument is wrong because he is virtue signalling/a snowflake/an SJW/etc." is inherently an ad hominem argument.

Quote:
If anything the fact that "SJW" exists separate from "Progressive" says something. Sadly too often the literal, definitive term for the movement/stance itself becomes tainted. At least "SJW" is the term and not just "Progressive" in general. That's something in my book.
No, it's actually not. Take, for example, Louis CK, since he was brought up in this thread. The guy very clearly was out of line, as he himself admitted. Or, as another example, noted Trump supporter Sargon of Akkad - a plainly conservative person who was labelled as such for not fully agreeing with white nationalists like Richard Spencer. If it were ever some sort of serious assessment, that has long since given way to conservatives who, themselves, are far too outraged over minor incidents like a campus protest or a woman criticizing video games.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 10:52 AM   #1773
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I've never seen it used in any manner except to dismiss an argument.
SJW, you mean? They use it themselves, on occasion. Banquetbear, a member here, has done so.

Plus, it's not an insult necessarily, although the "warrior" bit sure isn't a compliment, but I can't find a better way to describe these far-left ideologues. I mean there's a specific type of person we have in mind when we use it.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 11:20 AM   #1774
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,660
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
So? Why must it be sexual assault or harassment? What's the problem with it being simply not liking a person's behavior?
Two consenting adults consent to be involved in an activity. Years later one person decides they don't like that they participated in the activity. As a result the other person has their career and life destroyed.

All because TWO ADULTS agreed to participate in an activity together. What could possibly be wrong with that?
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly
The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry
And all you touch, and all you see
Is all your life will ever be."
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 12:01 PM   #1775
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,216
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Two consenting adults consent to be involved in an activity. Years later one person decides they don't like that they participated in the activity. As a result the other person has their career and life destroyed.

All because TWO ADULTS agreed to participate in an activity together. What could possibly be wrong with that?
You keep making these hysterical claims.

Please provide a real-world example where what you described actually occurred.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 12:02 PM   #1776
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 7,929
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
They were given due process and they were exonerated. That’s an example of the system working.
It may be an example of the system working.... EVENTUALLY, but you cannot deny the fact that false allegations screwed up these people careers irreparably... Technically, the courts got it right, but the damage was done by then.

The whole point of what I said that started this branch of the thread off is that is that false allegations are often played out in Social Media and the Court of Public Opinion. The accused are tried, and convicted by the public before it ever gets to a court case (if it ever does).

Movements like #metoo may do some good in outing the really bad offenders, but unfortunately, they do a lot of harm as well, as people of dubious honesty such as "Grace" in the Aziz Ansari case, and gutter rags like "Babe" take advantage of it to advance their own personal or business agendas.

We must decide for ourselves if publicizing the names of real offenders is worth the damage it causes to the lives and livelihoods of people who have been falsely accused. Personally, I am a believer in Blackstone's formulation...

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.

Last edited by smartcooky; 13th February 2018 at 12:08 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 12:09 PM   #1777
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,673
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Two consenting adults consent to be involved in an activity. Years later one person decides they don't like that they participated in the activity. As a result the other person has their career and life destroyed.

All because TWO ADULTS agreed to participate in an activity together. What could possibly be wrong with that?
Nothing is wrong. We can choose not to associate with anyone for nearly any reason. Yes, they engaged in leg activity. And it is my choice if that is activity I want to support with my consumer dollar.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 12:44 PM   #1778
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,216
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
It may be an example of the system working.... EVENTUALLY, but you cannot deny the fact that false allegations screwed up these people careers irreparably... Technically, the courts got it right, but the damage was done by then.

The whole point of what I said that started this branch of the thread off is that is that false allegations are often played out in Social Media and the Court of Public Opinion. The accused are tried, and convicted by the public before it ever gets to a court case (if it ever does).

Movements like #metoo may do some good in outing the really bad offenders, but unfortunately, they do a lot of harm as well, as people of dubious honesty such as "Grace" in the Aziz Ansari case, and gutter rags like "Babe" take advantage of it to advance their own personal or business agendas.

We must decide for ourselves if publicizing the names of real offenders is worth the damage it causes to the lives and livelihoods of people who have been falsely accused. Personally, I am a believer in Blackstone's formulation...

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"
I don’t disagree with you. But there seems to be this misapprehension that all these incidents are treated the same: The moment any accusation is made the torches and pitchforks come out, and the accused has their life ruined immediately and irreparably.

And that is simply not the case.

Aziz Ansari keeps getting brought up, which is ridiculous. He hasn’t been ruined, he hasn’t been destroyed, and nothing has been taken away from him. They guy suffered some public embarrassment, and that’s about it.

Also, he has some very vocal defenders:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/15/o...arassment.html

https://www.dailywire.com/news/25929...-james-barrett

He’s going to be fine.

Furthermore, this has opened a dialogue and people are discussing the issue. That's a good thing. Meeting (perceived) hysteria with more hysteria, not so much.

Last edited by johnny karate; 13th February 2018 at 12:58 PM.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 01:16 PM   #1779
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,313
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I donít disagree with you. But there seems to be this misapprehension that all these incidents are treated the same: The moment any accusation is made the torches and pitchforks come out, and the accused has their life ruined immediately and irreparably.

And that is simply not the case.

Aziz Ansari keeps getting brought up, which is ridiculous. He hasnít been ruined, he hasnít been destroyed, and nothing has been taken away from him. They guy suffered some public embarrassment, and thatís about it.

Also, he has some very vocal defenders:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/15/o...arassment.html

https://www.dailywire.com/news/25929...-james-barrett

Heís going to be fine.

Furthermore, this has opened a dialogue and people are discussing the issue. That's a good thing. Meeting (perceived) hysteria with more hysteria, not so much.
Only if you consider people having their names trashed in international media with no evidence a good thing.

And make no mistake. Accusations like these stick, innocent or not.

And this does have an affect on the career of these people in the background with people chosing people who they hire for roles etc.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 01:44 PM   #1780
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,471
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
It may be an example of the system working.... EVENTUALLY, but you cannot deny the fact that false allegations screwed up these people careers irreparably... Technically, the courts got it right, but the damage was done by then.
Actually, at least one of them has openly stated that what he went through provided motivation and propelled him in his career, and the other two who were accused of rape seem to have turned out relatively fine as well. So yeah, the long-term harm to their careers is open to question.


(Now had you said that they were screwed over by Nifong, I'd agree, and I can see an argument for psychological harm...)

Quote:
Movements like #metoo may do some good in outing the really bad offenders, but unfortunately, they do a lot of harm as well, as people of dubious honesty such as "Grace" in the Aziz Ansari case, and gutter rags like "Babe" take advantage of it to advance their own personal or business agendas.
Still waiting to hear of all this horrible harm that has hit Ansari...
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 02:09 PM   #1781
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 7,929
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Only if you consider people having their names trashed in international media with no evidence a good thing.

And make no mistake. Accusations like these stick, innocent or not.

And this does have an affect on the career of these people in the background with people chosing people who they hire for roles etc.
Case in point, David Dougherty, a man who, while he was no saint (a petty criminal and recovering drug user) was getting his life back together... then

Accused of abducting and raping an 11 year old girl
Convicted on her testimony alone, even though DNA evidence excluded him.
Served three years before an appeal freed him (the actual offender was later caught and jailed)

However

People in his community still thought he did it even after exoneration
He couldn't get work because of the false accusations
He eventually fell back into crime and drugs, became ill, and died in 2017 shortly after his 50th birthday.

No matter how much remedial action happens after the fact, the mud always sticks

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11847308
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 02:27 PM   #1782
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 7,929
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Still waiting to hear of all this horrible harm that has hit Ansari...
Public embarrassment and having intimate personal details exposed is harm, any way you slice it!
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 02:33 PM   #1783
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Public embarrassment and having intimate personal details exposed is harm, any way you slice it!
Well, I'm sure he deserved it anyway...
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 02:52 PM   #1784
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,987
I think it's an exaggeration to say "destroyed" and "life ruined." But people who are accused of sexual assault/harassment unjustly are indeed harmed. Often they lose their careers. The Duke lacrosse players had to go through all that legal crap and didn't even get to graduate from their school. There was financial loss. Sure, they can recover somewhat and there may even be some positive outcomes, but it was indeed a huge stumbling block in their lives and unquestionably they lost time and opportunity by having to deal with the crap accusations. And what about the emotional distress and family/friend turmoil?

By the same token, you could argue that rape victims don't really have their "lives ruined" because of their rape. Many of them end up finding something positive and go on to lead full productive lives. But I think that's a rather stupid argument.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 03:10 PM   #1785
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,216
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Only if you consider people having their names trashed in international media with no evidence a good thing.
Welcome to the downside of celebrity. Itís been like this for as long as there have been celebrities.

Quote:
And make no mistake. Accusations like these stick, innocent or not.

And this does have an affect on the career of these people in the background with people chosing people who they hire for roles etc.
Give me an example then. What innocent person has this happened to?

In the mean time, Iíll give you a counter example: Kobe Bryant.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 03:25 PM   #1786
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,819
"If you didn't want to be falsely accused of sexual harassment you shouldn't have become famous."

Yeah that flows.

And what the chuff is a "counter example?" If I tell you my soup is too cold and you tell me yours is too hot does that mean both our soups are the correct temperature?

Crimes and false accusations can both happen. They aren't matter and anti-matter that cancel each other out.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 03:30 PM   #1787
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 7,929
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Welcome to the downside of celebrity. Itís been like this for as long as there have been celebrities.
It doesn't just happen to celebrities

Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Give me an example then. What innocent person has this happened to?
You already asked for an example
I supplied one in post #1798
You ignored that and asked for another example
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 03:40 PM   #1788
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,216
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Case in point, David Dougherty, a man who, while he was no saint (a petty criminal and recovering drug user) was getting his life back together... then

Accused of abducting and raping an 11 year old girl
Convicted on her testimony alone, even though DNA evidence excluded him.
Served three years before an appeal freed him (the actual offender was later caught and jailed)

However

People in his community still thought he did it even after exoneration
He couldn't get work because of the false accusations
He eventually fell back into crime and drugs, became ill, and died in 2017 shortly after his 50th birthday.

No matter how much remedial action happens after the fact, the mud always sticks

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11847308
This guy was the victim of a flawed and corrupt criminal justice system, not a false accusation. There is simply no comparison between what happened to him and what happened to Aziz Ansari.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 03:42 PM   #1789
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,819
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
This guy was the victim of a flawed and corrupt criminal justice system, not a false accusation.
I'm sure the guy who's life was ruined really appreciates the distinction.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 03:55 PM   #1790
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Welcome to the downside of celebrity.
Serves 'em right for being known and having money!
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 03:57 PM   #1791
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 7,929
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
This guy was the victim of a flawed and corrupt criminal justice system, not a false accusation.
It started with a false allegation by an 11 year old, so yeah, you are wrong
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
There is simply no comparison between what happened to him and what happened to Aziz Ansari.

Was David Doughtery falsely accused of a sex offence?
Was Aziz Ansari falsely accused of a sex offense?


Was what David Dougherty accused of made public?
Was what Aziz Ansari was accused of made public?


Did the false allegations made against David Dougherty impact on his life?
Did the false allegations made against Aziz Ansari impact on his life?


I'm seeing some obvious similarities here
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.

Last edited by smartcooky; 13th February 2018 at 04:02 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 04:03 PM   #1792
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,216
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think it's an exaggeration to say "destroyed" and "life ruined." But people who are accused of sexual assault/harassment unjustly are indeed harmed. Often they lose their careers. The Duke lacrosse players had to go through all that legal crap and didn't even get to graduate from their school. There was financial loss. Sure, they can recover somewhat and there may even be some positive outcomes, but it was indeed a huge stumbling block in their lives and unquestionably they lost time and opportunity by having to deal with the crap accusations. And what about the emotional distress and family/friend turmoil?

By the same token, you could argue that rape victims don't really have their "lives ruined" because of their rape. Many of them end up finding something positive and go on to lead full productive lives. But I think that's a rather stupid argument.
It certainly is. But thanks for making it any way.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 04:04 PM   #1793
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,216
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"If you didn't want to be falsely accused of sexual harassment you shouldn't have become famous."

Yeah that flows.
It's weird that you would put something in quotes no one actually said.

Quote:
And what the chuff is a "counter example?" If I tell you my soup is too cold and you tell me yours is too hot does that mean both our soups are the correct temperature?

Crimes and false accusations can both happen. They aren't matter and anti-matter that cancel each other out.
Of course they can both happen. Is someone arguing otherwise?
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 04:07 PM   #1794
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,216
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm sure the guy who's life was ruined really appreciates the distinction.
Who? David Doughtery? He probably would appreciate it. Because if I went through what he did, I'd be pretty offended if someone tried to compare my ordeal with what happened to Aziz Ansari.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 04:07 PM   #1795
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,819
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
It's weird that you would put something in quotes no one actually said.
Fine it's "downside of being a celebrity." as if that excuses it away.

Quote:
Of course they can both happen. Is someone arguing otherwise?
You certainly seem to be. Otherwise why counter one with the other?

Someone said "I have a report of soup that's too cold" and you responded with "Well here's a story about soup that's too hot" as if that... made any sense at all.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 04:08 PM   #1796
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,471
I'll just assume that, since nobody has presented anything, nobody here has any evidence of any financial harm to Ansari. So, an additional question: What does Duke Lacrosse have to do with #Metoo, given that the accused were cleared of wrongdoing before the Me Too movement was invented?

Same goes for every other case that came about before the movement began.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 04:08 PM   #1797
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,216
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Serves 'em right for being known and having money!
Seems harsh, but I guess you're entitled to your opinion.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 04:11 PM   #1798
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,216
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
It started with a false allegation by an 11 year old, so yeah, you are wrong



Was David Doughtery falsely accused of a sex offence? https://www.dropbox.com/s/ygxdgwipcz...cked.png?raw=1
Was Aziz Ansari falsely accused of a sex offense? https://www.dropbox.com/s/ygxdgwipcz...cked.png?raw=1


Was what David Dougherty accused of made public? https://www.dropbox.com/s/ygxdgwipcz...cked.png?raw=1
Was what Aziz Ansari was accused of made public? https://www.dropbox.com/s/ygxdgwipcz...cked.png?raw=1


Did the false allegations made against David Dougherty impact on his life? https://www.dropbox.com/s/ygxdgwipcz...cked.png?raw=1
Did the false allegations made against Aziz Ansari impact on his life? https://www.dropbox.com/s/ygxdgwipcz...cked.png?raw=1


I'm seeing some obvious similarities here
Yeah, great job.

I could make a similar list demonstrating how dogs and people are the same.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 04:13 PM   #1799
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 7,929
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
It's weird that you would put something in quotes no one actually said.
Well, Joe Morgue actually said it

Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Of course they can both happen. Is someone arguing otherwise?
YOU are arguing that the counter example mitigates the example it counters. This is wrong on every level. By inference, you are saying that its OK for innocent people to have their lives impacted by false accusations, just so long as we get the bad guys, or in Joe Morgue's example, you are inferring that its a "so what" if my soup is too cold, because yours is too hot.

You may not have meant to infer that two wrongs make a right when you posted the Kobe Bryant example, but that is exactly what you were inferring.
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 04:15 PM   #1800
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,216
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Fine it's "downside of being a celebrity." as if that excuses it away.
It doesn't excuse it, nor did I argue that it did. Iím simply pointing it out as a fact. Celebrities lives are open to public scrutiny, and thus quite often must endure public embarrassment.

Quote:
You certainly seem to be. Otherwise why counter one with the other?

Someone said "I have a report of soup that's too cold" and you responded with "Well here's a story about soup that's too hot" as if that... made any sense at all.
Weíre trying make a determination whether or not false accusations ruin lives and livelihoods as a matter of course.

I simply provided an example in which that explicitly did not happen.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:29 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.