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Old 5th February 2018, 09:18 PM   #1
corybluefire
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Jesus, God, or Satan?

According to the Bible, who is(are) the real good guy(s)?

Imo.

Satan.

Jesus.

Then God.
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Old 5th February 2018, 09:26 PM   #2
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Satan is barely even in the Bible, and even then he's at least two different people. And God and Jesus can't decide if they're the same person, two people, or even three people between them. The whole thing needs proper editing, makes The Silmarillion look tightly-focused and evenly-paced by comparison.

I'd say the only Bible character who is remotely heroic or relatable is Dracula, and to a lesser extent St Anne.
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Old 5th February 2018, 10:49 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'd say the only Bible character who is remotely heroic or relatable is Dracula, and to a lesser extent St Anne.
What about that little monkey, can't recall his name, who danced on the wall of Jericho while Israelites were having the first Woodstock?
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Old 5th February 2018, 11:43 PM   #4
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I thought this was a poll...
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Old 6th February 2018, 12:44 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by corybluefire View Post
According to the Bible, who is(are) the real good guy(s)?

Imo.

Satan.

Jesus.

Then God.
According to whose interpretation of the Bible?
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Old 6th February 2018, 06:45 AM   #6
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Pretty obviously God is the bad actor.... All that genocide and killing off children and all.

As I recall, “Satan” doesn’t even put in an appearance, he’s an invention of the Middle Ages.
The individual that tempted Eve, had his little bet with God over Job, and tempted Jesus in the desert was originally “The Tempter” or some-such, a minion of God.
He only got conflated with Satan when the church turned Lucifer into “Satan” (and made him look suspiciously like certain Pagan gods...)

As for JC, well, the lad never really got to accomplish much, did he?
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Old 6th February 2018, 06:56 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by corybluefire View Post
According to the Bible, who is(are) the real good guy(s)?

Imo.

Satan.

Jesus.

Then God.
The snake in Genesis has my vote.
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Old 6th February 2018, 07:26 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by corybluefire View Post
According to the Bible, who is(are) the real good guy(s)?

Imo.

Satan.

Jesus.

Then God.
I would say 'none of the above'.

About the only the only three really good guys in the Bible would be Moses, Samson and David.
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Old 6th February 2018, 07:26 AM   #9
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I'll go with the one that can make wine, if you ask nicely maybe even beer or single malt!
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Old 6th February 2018, 08:31 AM   #10
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Santa.
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Old 6th February 2018, 09:23 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
I would say 'none of the above'.

About the only the only three really good guys in the Bible would be Moses, Samson and David.
David?

Who had a guy killed so that he could have his wife?

still - good by Bible standards maybe?
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Old 6th February 2018, 10:05 AM   #12
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None of them are truly positive characters.

If we are arguing which is the least negative, i have to go with Satan. God has a serious anger problem that has him killing in brutal ways pretty much everyone exceot a few sycophants. Jesus could easily have been the best of the three, but he's the one that introduces hell and the lake of fire.
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Old 6th February 2018, 10:07 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by corybluefire View Post
According to the Bible, who is(are) the real good guy(s)?

Imo.

Satan.

Jesus.

Then God.
What book is Imo in?
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Old 6th February 2018, 11:38 AM   #14
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I'd marry Jesus, **** Satan, and kill God.
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Old 6th February 2018, 11:45 AM   #15
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Satan doesn't show up in the Torah at all. He makes a small handful of appearances in some later books, but the words of the prophets are always treated allegorically. So, I'm going to say that the real hero was me for having to read that stuff.
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Old 6th February 2018, 11:56 AM   #16
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The almighty God
our lord and savior Jesus Christ His only begotten son.

The Beast is the antithesis of good.

That was easy! Have a blessed day!
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Old 6th February 2018, 12:17 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
David?

Who had a guy killed so that he could have his wife?

still - good by Bible standards maybe?
Absolutely good by Bible standards.

After all, almost right from the start the Bible has quite a few anti-female standards in it.
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Old 6th February 2018, 12:29 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The almighty God
our lord and savior Jesus Christ His only begotten son.

The Beast is the antithesis of good.

That was easy! Have a blessed day!
What makes God good? Was telling Abraham to kill his son 'good'? Or allowing Jepthah to kill his daughter? How about sacrificing almost every living creature on the earth in a flood? Is it good that he told man that he should enslave his neighbors, slaughter their children and rape their daughters? Is it good that God sentences every man and woman to be tortured forever simply for not beliving in him when he provided no evidence?
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Old 6th February 2018, 01:10 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What makes God good? Was telling Abraham to kill his son 'good'? Or allowing Jepthah to kill his daughter? How about sacrificing almost every living creature on the earth in a flood? Is it good that he told man that he should enslave his neighbors, slaughter their children and rape their daughters? Is it good that God sentences every man and woman to be tortured forever simply for not beliving in him when he provided no evidence?
Well, ...

If one is trying to kiss the butt of a mythical supernatural being in order to obtain some sort of post-death paradise, then one cannot use logic to do kiss the said butt.
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Old 6th February 2018, 01:11 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What makes God good? Was telling Abraham to kill his son 'good'? Or allowing Jepthah to kill his daughter? How about sacrificing almost every living creature on the earth in a flood? Is it good that he told man that he should enslave his neighbors, slaughter their children and rape their daughters? Is it good that God sentences every man and woman to be tortured forever simply for not beliving in him when he provided no evidence?
God is good in mysterious ways indeed!
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Old 6th February 2018, 01:35 PM   #21
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I think Mary, (the Jesus mum one), wasn't a bad chick, although she did tell a porky about the virgin thing.
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Old 6th February 2018, 01:54 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The almighty God
our lord and savior Jesus Christ His only begotten son.

The Beast is the antithesis of good.

That was easy! Have a blessed day!
Careful not to trip over all that spaghetti.
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Old 6th February 2018, 07:13 PM   #23
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The actual protagonist of the Bible is Jehoshaphat.

Even though there are only a few verses about him (in 1 Kings and 2 Chronicles), if you read very carefully, you can see that he is the focus of everything, the eye of the storm as it were. For example, the Fall is actually about his distress at his younger daughter's rebellious romance with a Moabite; the Flood is a metaphor for his dog who died when he was eleven; the Acts of the Apostles represent his regrets about not pursuing an artistic career; and the Beast of Revelations personifies his fear of his own latent homosexuality.
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Old 6th February 2018, 08:30 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The almighty God
our lord and savior Jesus Christ His only begotten son.

The Beast is the antithesis of good.

That was easy! Have a blessed day!
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What makes God good? Was telling Abraham to kill his son 'good'? Or allowing Jepthah to kill his daughter? How about sacrificing almost every living creature on the earth in a flood? Is it good that he told man that he should enslave his neighbors, slaughter their children and rape their daughters? Is it good that God sentences every man and woman to be tortured forever simply for not beliving in him when he provided no evidence?
Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Well, ...

If one is trying to kiss the butt of a mythical supernatural being in order to obtain some sort of post-death paradise, then one cannot use logic to do kiss the said butt.
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
God is good in mysterious ways indeed!
Big Dog proved again how people make exceptions for God. That they don't and won't see his character for what the Bible says it is.

Consider the following. I was brought up as a Christian. And God was promoted as a loving God.

But the God of the bible's love is the love of a narcissistic, insecure, brutal and violent stalker . Think about it. He asks more then anything that we praise him morning, noon and night.

He watches us like a psychotic ex hiding in the bushes. He's Glen Close in Fatal Attraction. He grants us free will. Personally, I didn't know we had a choice but to have free will. But his idea of free will is like the Mafia don who requires we pay for protection or he breaks our leg. God says praise him or he'll torture us for eternity.

I really want to know what criteria the Big Dog used to determine God is good? I pointed this all out to a pastor I met hiking who decided to start preaching to me. He basically said we didn't have a right to judge God. I flipped it around on him and said 'why not? If he's asking me to believe in him and be an obedient Christian soldier don't I have a right...no a responsibility to consider the character of whom I was suppose to obey? Otherwise, I'm an automaton. That's not morality, that's simply following orders.
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Old 7th February 2018, 12:16 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Satan doesn't show up in the Torah at all. He makes a small handful of appearances in some later books, but the words of the prophets are always treated allegorically. So, I'm going to say that the real hero was me for having to read that stuff.
Well, sort of. When Satan is used as a proper name e.g. 2 Chr 21 it apparently still refers to a messenger of God (in the parallel passage in Samuel "Satan" is replaced by an angry YHWH.)

On the other hand even in the NT we find passages like "And Jesus was driven up into the wilderness by the Spirit to be tested by the Devil", where Satan plays a role similar to "The Satan" of Job.
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Old 7th February 2018, 05:48 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The almighty God
our lord and savior Jesus Christ His only begotten son.

The Beast is the antithesis of good.

That was easy! Have a blessed day!
For God so loved the world he sent his only son to have a gay BDSM afternoon so that sins may be forgiven.
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Old 7th February 2018, 06:07 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
The actual protagonist of the Bible is Jehoshaphat.

Even though there are only a few verses about him (in 1 Kings and 2 Chronicles), if you read very carefully, you can see that he is the focus of everything, the eye of the storm as it were. For example, the Fall is actually about his distress at his younger daughter's rebellious romance with a Moabite; the Flood is a metaphor for his dog who died when he was eleven; the Acts of the Apostles represent his regrets about not pursuing an artistic career; and the Beast of Revelations personifies his fear of his own latent homosexuality.
Don't forget that tremendous jump of his in Ecclesiastes.
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Old 7th February 2018, 12:49 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
What book is Imo in?
Don't you remember the parable of the bicycle?

Quote:
When I was a child I used to pray for a bicycle, but then I realised that God doesn't work that way. So I stole one and prayed for forgiveness instead.
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Old 7th February 2018, 12:51 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I'd marry Jesus, **** Satan, and kill God.
Have you any idea how painful it is when wine comes out of your nose? Thanks to you I have!
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Old 7th February 2018, 12:55 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Absolutely good by Bible standards.

After all, almost right from the start the Bible has quite a few anti-female standards in it.
Hey, when the good men are identified by their willingness to hand women over to rape mobs (even when the women in question are their daughters) you know you're dealing with gold standard morality.
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Old 7th February 2018, 12:59 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I think Mary, (the Jesus mum one), wasn't a bad chick, although she did tell a porky about the virgin thing.
It's a case of 'lost in translation', angel comes from angelus, Latin for 'messenger'. For Mary, the postman knocked twice if ya know what I mean!
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Old 8th February 2018, 11:13 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The almighty God
our lord and savior Jesus Christ His only begotten son.

The Beast is the antithesis of good.

That was easy! Have a blessed day!
But did your god create the beast you speak of?
If it more powerful?

If so, then clearly the beast is part of god, so god cannot be good, if not, then how do you know the claims of your god are not mere propaganda?
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Old 8th February 2018, 03:43 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
But did your god create the beast you speak of?
If it more powerful?

If so, then clearly the beast is part of god, so god cannot be good, if not, then how do you know the claims of your god are not mere propaganda?
Quote:
I answer that, One opposite is known through the other, as darkness is known through light. Hence also what evil is must be known from the nature of good. Now, we have said above that good is everything appetible; and thus, since every nature desires its own being and its own perfection, it must be said also that the being and the perfection of any nature is good. Hence it cannot be that evil signifies being, or any form or nature. Therefore it must be that by the name of evil is signified the absence of good. And this is what is meant by saying that "evil is neither a being nor a good." For since being, as such, is good, the absence of one implies the absence of the other.
St. Thomas Aquinas Doctor of the Church
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Old 8th February 2018, 11:31 PM   #34
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So there is no beast at all then?
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Old 9th February 2018, 03:22 AM   #35
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Evil is good:

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I AGREE
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Old 10th February 2018, 05:56 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
So there is no beast at all then?
To elaborate on this. I find the answer of Thomas of Aquila, which so often gets touted out that the be-all end all answer to this question both vacuous and presumptions, but not an actual answer.

If firstly assumes there IS an actual objective force of good, without any form of actual proof. In fact, history seems to show this is NOT the case as our definition of 'good' and the one used 2000 years ago are not compatible at all.

Then it claims that evil is merely the absence of this presumed force, but gives no explanation WHY a beneficent deity would willingly withhold that force or even create the possibility of ignoring that force.
The answer also goes against the doctrine of the religion in question which clearly states that there is an active and tangible force in opposition of the supposed deity.

So that quote really did not answer anything with regards to the question I originally asked and just, in my opinion, made the christian faith even less compelling.
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Old 10th February 2018, 08:35 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
To elaborate on this. I find the answer of Thomas of Aquila, which so often gets touted out that the be-all end all answer to this question both vacuous and presumptions, but not an actual answer.

If firstly assumes there IS an actual objective force of good, without any form of actual proof. In fact, history seems to show this is NOT the case as our definition of 'good' and the one used 2000 years ago are not compatible at all.

Then it claims
  • that evil is merely the absence of this presumed force, but gives no explanation WHY a beneficent deity would willingly withhold that force or even create the possibility of ignoring that force.
The answer also goes against the doctrine of the religion in question which clearly states that there is an active and tangible force in opposition of the supposed deity.

So that quote really did not answer anything with regards to the question I originally asked and just, in my opinion, made the christian faith even less compelling.
Oh for pete’s sake, of course Thomas and numerous others explain evil in the context of a beneficent god.

Furthermore, the discussion here is framed in the context of the op which presumes Satan.

By the way, just how compelling did you find the Christian faith before you were disapppointed by a paragraph of Summa Theologiae? Mayhap you will wish to read the whole thing before passing judgments?
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Old 10th February 2018, 09:05 AM   #38
Lukraak_Sisser
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh for pete’s sake, of course Thomas and numerous others explain evil in the context of a beneficent god.

Furthermore, the discussion here is framed in the context of the op which presumes Satan.

By the way, just how compelling did you find the Christian faith before you were disapppointed by a paragraph of Summa Theologiae? Mayhap you will wish to read the whole thing before passing judgments?

Yes, he explains it, but it comes down to : god is good, and we cannot understand it.

And yes, I have read the whole Christianity thing. I find it as compelling as each other faith/mythology, historically interesting but a figment of human imagination. What is it about your particular flavor of Christianity that you find more compelling than all the other variations of Christianity?
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Old 10th February 2018, 09:15 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Yes, he explains it, but it comes down to : god is good, and we cannot understand it.

And yes, I have read the whole Christianity thing. I find it as compelling as each other faith/mythology, historically interesting but a figment of human imagination. What is it about your particular flavor of Christianity that you find more compelling than all the other variations of Christianity?
Cool story. My favorite was when you said that reading a paragraph of St. Thomas Aquinas (one of the towering intellects of Western Thought) made something you already find to be "mythology, historically interesting but a figment of human imagination," "less compelling" to you.

Sounds legit.
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Old 10th February 2018, 09:29 AM   #40
Lukraak_Sisser
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A towering intellect can still be wrong. I find Plato equally interesting to read, that does not mean I believe humanity used to be ball-shaped beings with 4 arms and 4 legs separated because of our hubris.


Then again, I may presume that according to that intellect you are a heretic that needs to be punished?
Or are you a catholic monarchist accepting of slavery?
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