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Old 8th February 2018, 02:48 PM   #1
theprestige
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CNN: Dreamers will leave the US if DACA falls through

With predictable responses.

https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2018/0...=twitchywidget
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Old 8th February 2018, 03:09 PM   #2
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What happens to these people who probably don't even have a place? They just get thrown over the border while heartless ***** point and laugh?
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Old 8th February 2018, 03:17 PM   #3
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Bye Felicia
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Old 8th February 2018, 03:23 PM   #4
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Hello Bigot.
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Old 8th February 2018, 03:25 PM   #5
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I'm not sure why the dreamers want to do their dreaming in a sexist, misogynistic, homophobic country run by a racist anyways.

#adiosfelicia
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Old 8th February 2018, 03:26 PM   #6
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Hello Bigot.
When everyone's a bigot, no-one is.
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Old 8th February 2018, 03:29 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I'm not sure why the dreamers want to do their dreaming in a sexist, misogynistic, homophobic country run by a racist anyways.

#adiosfelicia
Because it's their home and their country?
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Old 8th February 2018, 03:31 PM   #8
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Hello Bigot.
well, golly that is the type of comment that has me totally rethinking how I feel about these "dreamers" threatening to leave the USA. Maybe they can be taken in by all the folks who promised to move out if Trump got elected??

Bu-bye Felicia!
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Old 8th February 2018, 04:21 PM   #9
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Thanks, Obama, etc!

Who is Felicia?

As I've been saying, these people are just pawns for both sides. Obama pulled a political stunt saying they can stay. That was a really stupid, yet calculated move. Calculated, because he knew this day would come.

Problem is, I don't think you can tell people they can stay and then turn around and throw them out years later. That is messed up, and it is now OUR mess. Again, thanks Obama. And everyone before you as well.

It's our fault that we and these "dreamers" are in this situation. We just ignored the problem for years, exploiting illegals the whole time.

I think at this point the best we can do is kick the bad ones out and let the rest stay. Telling people they can stay, telling them to go ahead and set up a new life for themselves, investing everything they have, and then years later telling them no? I am against that and that is putting it mildly.

I don't care much about who is already here, I want the borders secured.

Now, as for dreamers here claiming they will leave if they don't get what they want - sounds like they have become Americans to me. The crying line is over there.
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Old 9th February 2018, 06:56 AM   #10
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Are the "Dreamers" of CNN the folks dreaming of picking strawberries? Or are they talking Elon Musk/ Mikola Tesla level?

But yeah, to what Midge said.
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Old 9th February 2018, 07:00 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I'm not sure why the dreamers want to do their dreaming in a sexist, misogynistic, homophobic country run by a racist anyways.

#adiosfelicia
Maybe they want to stay and work to reverse all that
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Old 9th February 2018, 07:22 AM   #12
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I think you guys need to sort out which of your citizens is paying illegal immigrants off the books and contrary to US law and prosecute them to the fullest.

If you don't this is just gong to keep happening.

Which US citizens are flouting immigration/employment law for their own profit? Find them and stop them.
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Old 9th February 2018, 07:53 AM   #13
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When I lived overseas I knew two host country nationals who had more or less been "Dreamers" (a decade or more before the term came into use). Their parents had taken them to North America (one to the U.S., the other to Canada) as very young children. They both grew up speaking English, watching English language movies, American and British music, all that.

Then, in their late teens, off to a third-world country they had no memory of. It is terrible to treat people that way. The one from Canada seemed to be able to integrate back into the host country culture without too much difficulty, but the one from America just felt like a fish out of water, and was really depressed.
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Old 9th February 2018, 08:22 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Thanks, Obama, etc!

Who is Felicia?

As I've been saying, these people are just pawns for both sides. Obama pulled a political stunt saying they can stay. That was a really stupid, yet calculated move. Calculated, because he knew this day would come.
....
Not so sure about that. Obama was buying some time until there could be a permanent deal. Clinton would likely have continued it. Nobody imagined that Trump would move into the White House. I suspect Obama might have done a lot differently in his last couple years if he thought Trump could win.
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Old 9th February 2018, 08:28 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Who is Felicia?
Bye Felicia
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Old 9th February 2018, 09:08 AM   #16
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Stop Felicia, don't Felicia, come back Felicia.

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Old 9th February 2018, 10:09 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
What happens to these people who probably don't even have a place? They just get thrown over the border while heartless ***** point and laugh?
Knock knock?


Anyone want to take this?
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Old 9th February 2018, 10:14 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think you guys need to sort out which of your citizens is paying illegal immigrants off the books and contrary to US law and prosecute them to the fullest.

If you don't this is just gong to keep happening.

Which US citizens are flouting immigration/employment law for their own profit? Find them and stop them.
Well sure, that is what we would do if we actually wanted to reduce illegal immigration. However, that would deprive businesses of their supply of cheap, disposable exploitable labor. Illegal immigrants are going to take whatever wages they can get, as long as they are better than what they can get in Mexico or whatever other country they came from. They are not likely to complain about wage and hour or safety violations, and they can be laid off without having to pay unemployment compensation.

IMO, the real goal of many ostensibly anti-immigrant people is to maintain the status quo. That is why they support mostly ineffective stuff like walls or other "border security" measures, and push propaganda to keep anger directed at the immigrants themselves, rather than the people employing them. They don't really want to stop illegal immigration. Neither do they want to see illegal immigrants granted legal residency or citizenship, as legal residents or citizens would likely be less inclined to put up with bad treatment.

Last edited by CORed; 9th February 2018 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 9th February 2018, 10:16 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Well sure, that is what we would do if we actually wanted to reduce illegal immigration. However, that would deprive businesses of their supply of cheap, disposable exploitable labor. Illegal immigrants are going to take whatever wages they can get, as long as they are better than what they can get in Mexico or whatever other country they came from. They are not likely to complain about wage and hour or safety violations, and they can be laid off without having to pay unemployment compensation.

IMO, the real goal of many ostensibly anti-immigrant people is to maintain the status quo. That is why they support mostly ineffective stuff like walls or other "border security" measures, and push propaganda to keep anger directed at the immigrants themselves, rather than the people employing them. They don't really want to stop illegal immigration. Neither do they want to see illegal immigrants granted legal residency or citizenship, as legal residents or citizens would likely be less inclined to put up with bad treatment.

Seems pretty spot on and in keeping with the theme of the last few decades where rich people get poor people to blame very poor people for the problems caused by rich people trying to stay rich.
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Old 9th February 2018, 10:19 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Knock knock?


Anyone want to take this?
Actually my interpretation was that you had completely failed to read the article.

They are not being thrown out, they are threatening to voluntarily leave.

So... yeah
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Old 9th February 2018, 10:19 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Knock knock?


Anyone want to take this?
I think anyone who'd take the 'just deport them, not our concern what happens to them' position is going to object to the point and laugh part of your question (not because they won't, but because it makes them look like cartoon villains).

But yeah, what else are they going to do? If the argument is that people who grew up in the US don't belong there because of their paperwork and allowing them to stay would set a bad precedent, why help them get back on their feet in their parents' country? The whole argument is that it's none of the US's business what happens to them.
And if the argument is that letting them continue their lives is somehow more expensive than finding, detaining and deporting all of them, then why would those who object for financial reasons want to spend a dime on them once they're across the border?
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Old 9th February 2018, 10:21 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Well sure, that is what we would do if we actually wanted to reduce illegal immigration. However, that would deprive businesses of their supply of cheap, disposable exploitable labor. Illegal immigrants are going to take whatever wages they can get, as long as they are better than what they can get in Mexico or whatever other country they came from. They are not likely to complain about wage and hour or safety violations, and they can be laid off without having to pay unemployment compensation.

IMO, the real goal of many ostensibly anti-immigrant people is to maintain the status quo. That is why they support mostly ineffective stuff like walls or other "border security" measures, and push propaganda to keep anger directed at the immigrants themselves, rather than the people employing them. They don't really want to stop illegal immigration. Neither do they want to see illegal immigrants granted legal residency or citizenship, as legal residents or citizens would likely be less inclined to put up with bad treatment.
QFT
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Old 9th February 2018, 10:26 AM   #23
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While I favor keeping them because I think their presence ultimately benefits the United States and me personally, I think a lot of the Mexican Dreamers would eventually do okay in Mexico and would likely contribute to improving that country. Different situation for those who come from other countries, obviously.
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Old 9th February 2018, 10:42 AM   #24
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I mean, maybe we should be a little more concerned about sending illegal immigrants back to ******** countries... It's not like these poor children chose for their parents to put them in this awkward situation. And it's not like their parents gave them much of a choice about getting out of it.

Now they're adults, living illegally in the US, and it's time for them to start making their own choices about how to deal with the life they've been given. Do we owe it to them, to give them a choice about staying here versus returning to some ******** country? Or do we continue to hold their parents responsible for the choices they made on their children's behalf, and the legal and practical consequences of those choices?
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Old 9th February 2018, 11:17 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Now they're adults, living illegally in the US, and it's time for them to start making their own choices about how to deal with the life they've been given. Do we owe it to them, to give them a choice about staying here versus returning to some ******** country? Or do we continue to hold their parents responsible for the choices they made on their children's behalf, and the legal and practical consequences of those choices?
By all accounts, Dreamers have been heavily vetted and have made a great effort to make right events that were beyond their control. By registering for the DACA program, they took a grave risk to try to legalize their presence in this country. Do we owe them that chance? Arguably, we do or else be guilty of history's biggest bait-and-switch since the Trojan Horse.

Even if the DACA program had never existed, I think an argument could easily be made that we don't so much owe it to them, as we owe it to our ancestors who immigrated here, some by choice and some without any choice at all.

Personally, I think trying to frame illegal immigration as being even in the upper half of our problems as a country is ridiculous and an appeal to white nationalists.
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Old 9th February 2018, 11:34 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I mean, maybe we should be a little more concerned about sending illegal immigrants back to ******** countries... It's not like these poor children chose for their parents to put them in this awkward situation. And it's not like their parents gave them much of a choice about getting out of it.

Now they're adults, living illegally in the US, and it's time for them to start making their own choices about how to deal with the life they've been given. Do we owe it to them, to give them a choice about staying here versus returning to some ******** country? Or do we continue to hold their parents responsible for the choices they made on their children's behalf, and the legal and practical consequences of those choices?
IMO, compassion and human decency would dictate that "dreamers" (I don't really care for that term, but it is the popularly used one) be given an opportunity to stay legally, with an option for citizenship, if they desire. As you said, it wasn't their choice to come here, and many of them came here at an early enough age that they really don't know any other home. Though I am in general fairly sympathetic to illegal immigrants, those who came here as adults did so of their own free will, knowing that deportation is a likely consequence if they get caught. Those brought here as children by their parents made no such choice.

While Obama's executive action to defer deportation was a step in the right direction, it's really not enough. If we are not going to deport them, they should be granted full legal status.
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Old 9th February 2018, 11:41 AM   #27
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When life hands you lemons blame a political party
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Old 9th February 2018, 11:52 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
When life hands you lemons blame a political party
When innocent people are being mistreated, play politics and refuse to help them, you mean?
I mean, that's the Republican modus operandi here.
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Old 9th February 2018, 01:48 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Thanks, but I'm not actually making a Christian argument.
Maybe not making the argument, but you laid out how it could best be done based on the source material. I wonder why that isn't a Christian argument?
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Old 9th February 2018, 03:07 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
What happens to these people who probably don't even have a place? They just get thrown over the border while heartless ***** point and laugh?
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I'm not sure why the dreamers want to do their dreaming in a sexist, misogynistic, homophobic country run by a racist anyways.

#adiosfelicia
There's a running gag in the immigration debate called "Schrodinger's Immigrant" a jab at the common talking points that immigrants are paradoxically both here to steal our jobs and go on welfare/commit crimes.

One could almost counter that with "Schrodinger's America" a horrible vile 3rd world country, not a wonderful perfect utopia with no social problems like say Sweden, that nobody should want to live in... that's its a damn near human rights violation if you kick somebody out of.

But in seriousness I think a sort of base difference related to all that where or problems lie.

At its most basic moral level, is removing someone from your country because they didn't follow the rules of entrance into your country, a punishment or just... returning the status quo?

Has an immigrant been "punished" in any meaningful sense of the term if they enter the country without due process, are discovered, and returned to their original country of origin?
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Old 10th February 2018, 09:36 AM   #31
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Well, most of the "dreamers" may just stay. https://www.ice.gov/removal-statistics/2017

ICE conducted about 226,000 removals last year. The report doesn't break it down but having worked for the legacy agency, INS most of those were voluntary returns. If there are 11 million undocumented in this country, it will take us 48 years to get rid of all of them.
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Old 10th February 2018, 11:42 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
At its most basic moral level, is removing someone from your country because they didn't follow the rules of entrance into your country, a punishment or just... returning the status quo?

Has an immigrant been "punished" in any meaningful sense of the term if they enter the country without due process, are discovered, and returned to their original country of origin?
If they enter your country in May and get sent back in November, probably not. If they enter when they are 5 and get sent back when they are 22 then almost certainly yes. I thought that was what this thread was about?
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Old 10th February 2018, 12:34 PM   #33
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I am constantly astounded by the lack of humanity often displayed ( amazingly by those who claim their religiousity the loudest)


Funny how us evil atheists don't make those claims,,,
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Old 10th February 2018, 12:39 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by mikado View Post
I am constantly astounded by the lack of humanity often displayed ( amazingly by those who claim their religiousity the loudest)


Funny how us evil atheists don't make those claims,,,
To be clear: you think it's inhumane to deport people back to the ******** country they came from.

Is that correct.
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Old 10th February 2018, 01:01 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
To be clear: you think it's inhumane to deport people back to the ******** country they came from.

Is that correct.
Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
If they enter your country in May and get sent back in November, probably not. If they enter when they are 5 and get sent back when they are 22 then almost certainly yes. I thought that was what this thread was about?
Yes.
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Old 10th February 2018, 01:06 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by mikado View Post
I am constantly astounded by the lack of humanity often displayed ( amazingly by those who claim their religiousity the loudest)

Funny how us evil atheists don't make those claims,,,
You know that these people are “threatening” to voluntarily leave right?

I get that patting oneself on the back is inimical to reading comprehension.
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Old 10th February 2018, 02:08 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You know that these people are “threatening” to voluntarily leave right?

I get that patting oneself on the back is inimical to reading comprehension.
Threatening is a strong word. And one you made up in this context.

That rather unpleasant website (funny, they use 'adorable' just like you do) actually just says they will leave.

I suppose it is an option to being officially deported.

But perhaps patting oneself on the back is inimical to reading comprehension.
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Old 10th February 2018, 02:58 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Threatening is a strong word. And one you made up in this context.

That rather unpleasant website (funny, they use 'adorable' just like you do) actually just says they will leave.

I suppose it is an option to being officially deported.

But perhaps patting oneself on the back is inimical to reading comprehension.
From CNN: “these Dreamers will leave the US if a DACA deal isn't reached.”

I don’t think CNN is that unpleasant, but I see your point.
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Old 10th February 2018, 03:09 PM   #39
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'k

The website linked, and the 'adorable' bit was twitchy.com, not CNN, but you know that, don't you?
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Old 10th February 2018, 03:21 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
'k

The website linked, and the 'adorable' bit was twitchy.com, not CNN, but you know that, don't you?
Oh dear, you didn’t say “linked” in the op. The source article was cnn, but you knew that, didn’t you.

The good news is you have walked back that silly bit about them not threatening to leave “if” they didn’t get their way, just like all those knuckleheads who said they were going to leave when Trump won.

Knuckleheads, amiright?
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