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2nd February 2017, 12:45 PM | #1 |
Thinker
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Stuntman Shooting
Australian Stuntman killed in music video filming
Link: https://www.theguardian.com/australi...ss-n-eso-video Incident seems very similar to the Brandon Lee (The Crow ) death. Just curious as to how this could happen, how could you accidently use a real firearm with real ammo ? Ok, US I can understand, but OZ usually have pretty strict gun controls. As I understand you wouldn`t even be shooting blanks from a firearm (my understanding of blanks is that they still fire a wad of card which would still sustain injury. Just interested to hear someone`s view who has an understanding of film set props and firearms protocol |
2nd February 2017, 01:05 PM | #2 |
Penultimate Amazing
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By not paying attention. According to what I saw and read of Lee's death, it exactly that. A scene called for a closeup of a loaded revolver. The crew didn't have dummy loads so some were made from 44 magnum cartridges by removing the bullet, dumping the powder then re-seating the bullet into the brass case. The primers were either not deactivated or done so improperly. The best way to make a primer inert is to load the primed/uncharged cases into the cylinder and drop the revolver hammer/firing pin onto them. They will make a loud pop which tells you they're spent and no longer can ignite anything.
The dummy loads were used in the scene which involved cocking the hammer and pulling the trigger. It seems that one bullet was propelled into the back of the barrel beyond the cylinder and stayed lodged there. Usually when a squib load is fired in a revolver, the bullet is stuck part way between the barrel and the cylinder making the revolver useless. In this case though the bullet remained in the barrel allowing the cylinder to rotate freely when the hammer was cocked. Later on full power blanks were called for a in a scene that required muzzle flash. With a full load of powder, the stuck bullet was propelled at near to or possibly exceeding normal 44 magnum velocities into the actor's chest killing him. No one checked the revolver bore clear prior to use. That is why Brandon Lee died. Ranb |
2nd February 2017, 01:12 PM | #3 |
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And a blank ,at close range, can kill you.
A blank is a small powder charge with no bullet.If it is discharged close enough to somebody it can injure or kill them from the flame and sheer force. Remember John Hexam from the 1980's? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon-Erik_Hexum That blanks/dummies are dangerous is something we drill into every new person in my Civil War Reanctment group. |
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2nd February 2017, 01:19 PM | #4 |
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In Hexum's case what he did seemed to be equal to using a bang stick; a scuba diver's power head. I know of two kinds, those that use standard ammo and those that use blanks. Both work the same way, the hot gases punch through the skin of the fish and turn the insides to mush. The bullet in the power head probably does less damage than the gun powder gases.
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2nd February 2017, 02:18 PM | #5 |
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2nd February 2017, 02:53 PM | #6 |
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This was not uncommon at the time; low budget movies did not keep an armourer on set unless they were filming with self-loading/automatic weapons liable to have malfunctions. Revolvers were not considered difficult for a general propmaster to manage. That said, the guy in that case was on his first movie... Lee's death was not a total waste in that sense; movies simply don't do this any more. Or make blanks from live ammunition, or fail to check weapons clear, clean them etc.
This blog post of mine about Lee's death might interest someone; we recreated the circumstances. I was hesitant to get involved but felt it was important to help counter the conspiracy theories. |
2nd February 2017, 03:19 PM | #7 |
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2nd February 2017, 03:22 PM | #8 |
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Yup. Even if there's no paper or compressed-powder plug like some of the older blank used; blanks can be dangerous. Most often with smaller calibers, the end is tightly crimped, so the powder has a chance to burn and build up pressure before exiting the barrel, causing a realistic flash and recoil. When I was in Basic Training in Ft. Jackson, I watched one of my buddies kill a snake with an M16 filled with 5.56 blank. The air pressure and burning gasses were enough to cause serious damage. Basically smashed the snake's head in. |
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2nd February 2017, 03:47 PM | #9 |
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Once upon a time live rounds were used as a matter of course in old gangster and war movies because nobody was much interested in taking the time or effort to manufacture barrels with internal (read as: invisible) blank firing devices allowing gas or recoil operated semi and full automatic firearms to function using blanks.
If you look closely at the muzzle ends of semi and full auto firearms used in movies during the 1930's - 1940's you can often see what looks like a rod mounted inside the muzzle - it is. The earliest BFD's were steel rods lathe turned to be under land and groove diameter, inserted in the muzzle end of the barrel that would allow for a certain amount of gas to escape and cause a muzzle flash, but also would trap enough gas in the barrel to allow the weapon to cycle. It wasn't until much later that movie armorers started manufacturing barrels w/ internal BFD's specifically for semi and full auto weapons. |
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Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
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2nd February 2017, 03:49 PM | #10 |
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Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
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2nd February 2017, 05:24 PM | #11 |
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Thanks for your informative succinct and fact based responses.
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2nd February 2017, 07:40 PM | #12 |
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3rd February 2017, 07:19 AM | #13 |
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There's a current trend to avoid the use of blanks entirely and use CGI for firing effects. In most cases, this looks really bad if you're a practiced shooter.
I suspect that in the John Wick film, they must have been using CGI because of all the very close-range shooting... But all of that footage looked very good from a technical standpoint. |
3rd February 2017, 09:13 AM | #14 |
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I don;t know if the term is still used but we called the devices you detail a "BFA" ... or "Blank Firing Attachment" ... On the 7.62 FNC1A1's we used it allowed exactly as you say, for the firearm to reload ... without it you had to manually reload each shot.
Without the BFA attached the bank's red plastic wad, could split a 16" long 2X6 lengthways, at very close range |
3rd February 2017, 09:35 AM | #15 |
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Recent new reports he had "two penetrating chest wounds" and was shot at close range ... I'm guessing they had blanks loaded with a powder charge, designed to cycle the auto pistol's slide and reload.
Operantly the script called for several people to fire at the stunt double, and (again I'm guessing) one of them fired within a few inches of his chest. |
3rd February 2017, 10:06 AM | #16 |
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We use the same nomenclature (BFA) for U.S. service weapons.
Device v attachment basically is internal v external. With the advent of simunitions http://simunition.com/en/ The BFA is gradually disappearing from military and LE use. As far as CGI and movie firearms go, not only does it allow a shortcut in production but allows for a certain amount of dramatic effect wrt muzzle flash - I had no idea that directors had strong opinions on what muzzle flash should look like on film until I had a conversation with a manufacturer of blank ammo used by the industry. He had worked with movie armorers in developing specific BFD's and blank ammo to produce the desired muzzle flash. Nowadays they just go to CGI. The issue with movie firearms use that has always made me laugh is how in post production the sound editors would use all types of firearm muzzle reports for dramatic effect - watching a celluloid hero unload a high cyclic rate 9mm SMG while hearing the sound a low cyclic rate heavy machine gun brings a smile. Kind of a cousin to the sound guys adding the sound of a Harley Davidson big twin to a scene where the actor is riding a 4 cylinder sportbike. |
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Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
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3rd February 2017, 12:27 PM | #17 |
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3rd February 2017, 01:56 PM | #18 |
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Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake. |
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3rd February 2017, 10:06 PM | #19 |
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3rd February 2017, 10:24 PM | #20 |
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3rd February 2017, 11:24 PM | #21 |
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Or multiple cycles of a pump-action before firing has taken place. Guy pumps the shotgun for the dramatic effect of the sound. Later guy pumps again to get that sound, which should make an unspent shotgun shell fly out, but doesn't.
Hell, just how loud firearms are in movies from simply being moved. There is no way you'll find me using a firearm that makes a loud metal rattle simply by being brought to aim unless I'm absolutely desperate (and likely bluffing). What on earth do people think a 92 is made from to sound like a wrench bag hitting a garage floor? Best case a gun like that has a very loose mag with something rattling around in the well, worse case the slide is going to explode when fired, explode back at your face by the way (that entire 'equal and opposite' thing's a bitch). Which is why someone who knows how guns behave and are supposed to behave is needed on set. People who think they might know enough about firearms to be fairly safe might be on the wrong side of the Dunning-Kruger effect, and someone ends up dead. No expert on set for this one? Unthinkably negligent. |
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4th February 2017, 12:25 AM | #22 |
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4th February 2017, 02:15 PM | #23 |
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4th February 2017, 02:19 PM | #24 |
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I've always been entertained by the times an acoustic guitar is being depicted, and the sound it makes obviously comes from an electric. One episode of Andy Griffith with a musician passing through town is maybe the best (as in most overt) example of this, although it happened a lot in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. |
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"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." |
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4th February 2017, 03:32 PM | #25 |
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For the record, firearms are not banned in Australia. They are not difficult to get if you can demonstrate a requirement for one.
Under Queensland's Weapons Act 1990 (link to pdf), a person would be required to hold a Theatrical Ordinance Supplier's License, which falls under Division 7 of this legislation (pp 125-9). There's a common misconception that guns are hard to get in Australia. They're not. |
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4th February 2017, 04:38 PM | #26 |
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Getting a gun in Australia is easy. All you need is a permit.
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There is no Antimemetics Division. |
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4th February 2017, 04:58 PM | #27 |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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4th February 2017, 10:04 PM | #28 |
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4th February 2017, 10:44 PM | #29 |
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7th February 2017, 06:41 PM | #30 |
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But as common as folks.
There are often professional instructors engaged in pre-production to get actors up to speed so they look the part, and that usually involves actual live fire drills with the firearms that will be used in the film. Often times the gun wranglers on set have a limited amount of authority to enforce safety rules and although the wranglers may be highly experienced as armorers they may have limited experience as Range Safety Officers. My particular pov is that there should be nationwide standards in the film industry addressing the use of firearms and any type of explosive materials in special effects. This SAG safety bulletin from '09 is a decent overview: https://www.sagaftra.org/files/sag/S...Part_1_9_3.pdf |
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Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
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8th February 2017, 02:05 AM | #31 |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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8th February 2017, 10:39 AM | #32 |
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Several countries do have universal standards, but even then accidents and other unintended consequences can occur.
During the filming of the first movie in the Rambo franchise (First Blood) up in B.C., the Canadian prop house that originally was scheduled to provide firearms for the production withdrew because of a lack of secured storage for the various machine guns and standard type firearms the production required. An American prop house was hired, and the end result was 2 M60 MG's stolen along with a bunch of other firearms. To the best of my knowledge, none were recovered. Another issue that isn't just specific to U.S production is that some weapons that film makers want to use are simply not available for film company rental use, so certain productions have used on-site licensees to run off functioning versions of weapons that the crew can not acquire for their purposes. The theory behind the legality of this is that as long as the firearm is destroyed at the end of it's use on set no crime has been committed. As U.S. law is very clear that post May 19th, 1986 No full auto NFA weapons can be manufactured for anything other than law enforcement or military use, or sales samples for the same, building post-86 guns for movie use is a serious felony waiting to happen. |
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Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
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8th February 2017, 10:14 PM | #33 |
Observer of Phenomena
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Clearly you didn't even read the legislation I posted - otherwise you might have noticed that it was Queensland legislation. Ie. state-level legislation, not federal, and therefore not "universal". Nor did I claim that it was.
However, it is the legal framework for the incident that we are talking about, unlike the rest of your post. |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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9th February 2017, 03:41 PM | #34 |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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10th February 2017, 01:38 AM | #35 |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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10th February 2017, 05:20 AM | #36 |
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Another bit of trivia to add: Blanks used for filming are often loaded with MORE powder (or different explosive) than normal rounds, in order to create a more visible muzzle flash. They are frequently more dangerous than normal blanks you might encounter elsewhere (blank firing guns and blank rounds, as well as rounds firing CS gas or 'pepper' spray, are still legal to buy for adults here in Germany despite our otherwise strict gun laws, and you can obtain a concealed carry permit for them with mere paperwork. One of the most popular firearms you can get right now here is a semi-auto blank firing MP40 replica... though no carry permit for that, for obvious reasons.)
ETA: The MP40 is semi-auto only; I erroneously said full-auto, because one store where I saw it did not describe it properly. They also sell a StG 44... |
13th February 2017, 10:30 AM | #37 |
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What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
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13th February 2017, 10:45 AM | #38 |
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Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
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14th February 2017, 08:46 AM | #39 |
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14th February 2017, 05:58 PM | #40 |
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