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Tags Alexandre Bissonnette , anti-Islam incidents , Canada incidents , Quebec incidents , shooting incidents , terrorism incidents

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Old 31st January 2017, 02:57 PM   #81
Wayward son
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
why do you jump straight to killing Trump?
Probably it's just, yet another, angry emotional outburst from a passionate concerned ISFer.
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Old 31st January 2017, 03:43 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
What opportunity would that be?
Just what it is: an opportunity to do something we can be proud of, instead of rationalizing to our grandchildren.



Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
You seem to imply that we should kill the President.
I agree that I left it very open ended, but no specific path was implied - just the reminder that our future selves will look back at this and ask whether we were on the side that said "send the refugees back to their deaths," or whether we stood against it.



Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Usually the "what would you have done back then" is in regards to Hitler and whether or not someone would kill him if they could go back in time, or if they knew in advance what he would become.

Just asking. Maybe it's just, yet another, angry emotional outburst from a passionate concerned ISFer.

Pretty disturbing if not.
At the moment, I'm really thinking about somebody who tells his grandchildren in 2080 that he "Stood up for All That Is Right by skipping my morning latte, because you see, Starbucks actually said they'd help rescue some of those war refugees. So I knew they had to feel my wrath, you know, to prove my moral highground."
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Old 31st January 2017, 03:53 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
Someone, it may or may not have been Applebaum (an expert on authoritarian and totalitarian regimes), made the opposite point. Telling obvious lies, the more absurd and unbelievable the better, is a display of power. Telling clever lies is a sign of weakness. In the latter case you are cowering and hoping to get away with it. In the former case you are so powerful that you can say whatever you want and not only get away with it, but change what people perceive is reality. Putin lying about Russian troops being in Ukraine when everyone could see on their TV screens is an obvious example.
I wonder if it goes either way, depending on the circumstances. Baghdad Bob was pitiful. ("The Americans are not in the city. Those explosions a block away from your house are... uh... impromptu public celebrations of our American Free city.")
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Old 31st January 2017, 04:51 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I wonder if it goes either way, depending on the circumstances. Baghdad Bob was pitiful. ("The Americans are not in the city. Those explosions a block away from your house are... uh... impromptu public celebrations of our American Free city.")
I think it can go both ways. But I think in the case of BB it was not an example of him trying to show his power over others, but Saddam showing his power over BB - and in doing so, attempting to show those who could attempt a coup that he was in control. If I was there and Saddam told me to lie my ass off on the TV I would have done so enthusiastically and then surrendered to the Americans the very first second the opportunity presented itself (which was what BB did).

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Old 31st January 2017, 05:34 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Not sure what's wrong with the first two, unless you were refering to me as an exemplar.
No, I am referring to the shooter.
Originally Posted by Winterfrost View Post
One's birthplace, culture, and political bent make someone worthy of the death penalty?
No, that's a very stupid read of my post.
Line 1: given those three features, not a surprise on the sentiments that led to the shooting.
Line 2: question (given the SHOOTING IN THE OP) about death penalty in Canada. A shooter like that is a perfect fit the death penalty, but as Border Riever pointed out, you don't have the option.
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Old 31st January 2017, 09:12 PM   #86
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From a story on CNN.com

Quote:
Amid pressure from the Canadian prime minister, Fox News has apologized for a tweet that inaccurately identified the suspect in Sunday night's Quebec mosque terror attack as a man of Moroccan origin.

The statement from the Prime Minister's Office which convinced them to issue the apology and delete the tweet included:

Quote:
"We need to remain focused on keeping our communities safe and united instead of trying to build walls and scapegoat communities," Purchase continued. "Muslims are predominantly the greatest victims of terrorist acts around the world. To paint terrorists with a broad brush that extends to all Muslims is not just ignorant -- it is irresponsible."

"If we allow individuals and organizations to succeed by scaring people, we do not actually end up any safer," she wrote. "Fear does not make us safer. It makes us weaker. Ramping up fear and closing our borders is not a solution. It distracts from the real issues that affect people's day to day life.

Looks like a not so veiled comment on the current situation in the Whitehouse more than just words directed at FOX News.
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Old 1st February 2017, 03:03 AM   #87
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The uptick in minor civil incidents after Trump's election owed to people on the far left and on the far right taking their respective extreme narratives as cover to legitimize action. The lesson from this incident is the same as any other form of social violence: cover narratives matter, and statements by political, religious, and major social figures can give lowlifes the understanding that there is an applauding public for violence. Ideas matter, ideologies matter, narratives matter. People may often not practice what they preach, but when vitriolic enough, guaranteed the wing nuts and loose cannons of the world will rush in to take up that slack.
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Old 1st February 2017, 03:09 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
The uptick in minor civil incidents after Trump's election owed to people on the far left and on the far right taking their respective extreme narratives as cover to legitimize action. The lesson from this incident is the same as any other form of social violence: cover narratives matter, and statements by political, religious, and major social figures can give lowlifes the understanding that there is an applauding public for violence. Ideas matter, ideologies matter, narratives matter. People may often not practice what they preach, but when vitriolic enough, guaranteed the wing nuts and loose cannons of the world will rush in to take up that slack.
Only some covering narratives matter. If you call a covering narrative a religion, but not Christianity or Judaism, then it can't possibly ever create anything bad, regardless of what the covering narrative is. All other covering narratives can cause problems, except maybe for the works of Marx and Lenin in some instances (this part is heavily disputed).

/sarcasm

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Old 1st February 2017, 03:19 AM   #89
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Don't worry, people. It is a white guy, so it must be just a loner that has a few screws loose. He can't be a self-radicalized member of a hate group, or a terrorist. [/Trumper]
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Old 1st February 2017, 03:28 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Don't worry, people. It is a white guy, so it must be just a loner that has a few screws loose. He can't be a self-radicalized member of a hate group, or a terrorist. [/Trumper]
Yep. Media - especially conservative media - will focus on the lone nutter narrative, if they keep mentioning it at all.
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Old 1st February 2017, 04:07 AM   #91
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I may have missed it so this is a genuine question, have either Theresa May or Donald Trump offered any statement on this event, even to offer sympathy?
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Old 1st February 2017, 04:25 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I may have missed it so this is a genuine question, have either Theresa May or Donald Trump offered any statement on this event, even to offer sympathy?
Trump called Trudeau: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/01..._14497494.html
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Old 1st February 2017, 04:33 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Yep. Media - especially conservative media - will focus on the lone nutter narrative, if they keep mentioning it at all.
Well, did you find anything indicating that he is more than some sort of loner/loser with far right political views? That's what he appears to be to me for the time being but the police investigation is just beginning.

Last edited by Castro; 1st February 2017 at 04:43 AM.
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Old 1st February 2017, 05:25 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Castro View Post
Well, did you find anything indicating that he is more than some sort of loner/loser with far right political views? That's what he appears to be to me for the time being but the police investigation is just beginning.
Like the guy who ran into that crowd in Berlin?

Point is, he's a right wing terrorist.
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Old 1st February 2017, 05:39 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So much for escaping the madness by going to Canada.

It's not a wild world, it's a sick sick world right now. I do wish all these white supremacist creeps would go back into the woodwork.
Where did you get white supremacists assumption? I couldn't find that phrase in the article. Did I overlook something?
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Old 1st February 2017, 05:49 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Like the guy who ran into that crowd in Berlin?

Point is, he's a right wing terrorist.
Like the weirdo who ran into that crowd in Nice. Point is, Canadian "media" are doing their job so far. imo.

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Old 1st February 2017, 05:55 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by jakesteele View Post
Where did you get white supremacists assumption? I couldn't find that phrase in the article. Did I overlook something?
"Racist nationalist" is mentioned. "A rose by any other name."
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Old 1st February 2017, 05:56 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Castro View Post
Like the weirdo who ran into that crowd in Nice. Point is, Canadian "media" are doing their job so far. imo.
I'm not talking about Canadian media.

But if media outlets - especially conservative ones - keep labeling this guy a terrorist, I'll happily concede that they are.
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Old 1st February 2017, 06:01 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
<snip>

/sarcasm

McHrozni
/confusion
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Old 1st February 2017, 06:02 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Line 1: given those three features, not a surprise on the sentiments that led to the shooting.
Again: what in the blue hell are you on about? Do you know anything about Québec at all?
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Old 1st February 2017, 07:05 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Don't worry, people. It is a white guy, so it must be just a loner that has a few screws loose. He can't be a self-radicalized member of a hate group, or a terrorist. [/Trumper]
Hey, they will be sure to point out he was a fan of Dawkins and Hitchens, two evil atheists. Just shows what he is like....


(of course, they fail to mention he is also a fan of the Pope and William Lane Craig)
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Old 1st February 2017, 07:17 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
The news reports haven't changed, they say there were Muslims involved.
Indeed there were. The victims.
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Old 1st February 2017, 07:24 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'm not talking about Canadian media.

But if media outlets - especially conservative ones - keep labeling this guy a terrorist, I'll happily concede that they are.
Without a direct link to a terrorist organization or clear political motives, "racist mass murderers" or "heinous mass murderers" seem more accurate names for those guys.

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Old 1st February 2017, 08:51 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Castro View Post
Without a direct link to a terrorist organization or clear political motives, "racist mass murderers" or "heinous mass murderers" seem more accurate names for those guys.
Funny, though, how much xenophobic mileage the GOP got out of "... refuses to call them Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists". A number of the so-labeled qualify as "racist/heinous mass murderer" by the above standard.
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Old 1st February 2017, 09:11 AM   #105
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Yes, the French Interior Minister made the same "error" from my POV in the Nice case. The prosecutor was embarrassed.

Last edited by Castro; 1st February 2017 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 1st February 2017, 09:44 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Don't worry, people. It is a white guy, so it must be just a loner that has a few screws loose. He can't be a self-radicalized member of a hate group, or a terrorist. [/Trumper]
How could a white christian ever possibly be a terrorist? What could ever have possibly inspired him?

Have they tied this one to stormfront yet?
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Old 1st February 2017, 10:18 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Castro View Post
Confirmation needed, but I believe that was before it was revealed the assailant wasn't a Muslim.
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Old 1st February 2017, 10:22 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Confirmation needed, but I believe that was before it was revealed the assailant wasn't a Muslim.
It's quite possible (to be fair I think it's the case for almost everyone)

Last edited by Castro; 1st February 2017 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 1st February 2017, 10:57 AM   #109
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Here is why I fine the politics of this disgusting.

Maybe he is a terrorist, maybe he is a lone idiot. This isn't a political issue it is a practical one.

If he is a lone idiot this is still terrible but it's not as likely that there are other planned attacks. On the other hand if he had real connections to white power organizations this could signal something larger.

So please stop making whether he is a terrorist or not a political statement. He could be either and we shouldn't let politics interfere with reality as misjudging what he is could have have consequences either way.
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Old 1st February 2017, 11:21 AM   #110
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Question is does an attack have to be organized before it qualifies as Terrorism?
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Old 1st February 2017, 11:26 AM   #111
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Depends what you mean by "organised". Do you mean involving several people? You can have single acts of terrorism.
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Old 1st February 2017, 11:29 AM   #112
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The September Clues wackos are all over this one too. http://www.cluesforum.info/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1948

Quote:
TPTB at it again and with the 'numbers' too?
The day after Chinese New Year (Rooster), 6 people shot to 'death'.
Bear in mind that Chinese people often put the symbol for Good Luck (Fu) upsidedown, which in this instance would make '6' a '9'...
Two assailants arrested one released making it a 'lone' shooter.
Alexandre Bissonnette, aged 27 (2+7=9), charged with attack.

Also, forgot to mention that Isha (evening prayers) is at 18:15ish in/near Quebec, yet the shooting occurred at 20:00hrs and if anyone knows a local mosque one will usually see the attendees not staying too long after prayer and doubtful it would be an hour and three quarters after call to prayer.
You'd think that no one ever dies in their world if it was reported in the mass media.

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Old 1st February 2017, 11:30 AM   #113
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Playing with numbers is fun!
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Old 1st February 2017, 11:33 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Question is does an attack have to be organized before it qualifies as Terrorism?
Interesting point. I would say no. There seems to be a practice in ISIS and other violent extremist organisations, to "approve" some lone wolf atrocity and claim to have "inspired" it. A cheap way of gaining publicity and claiming "achievements". Does that make a "lone nut" atrocity more "terrorist" than it would be if no extremist group adopted it?

If this is not "terrorist" in the event of it being the work of a depraved lone individual, would it become terrorist if KKK or some similar outfit claimed to have inspired it?
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Old 1st February 2017, 11:37 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
If he is a lone idiot this is still terrible but it's not as likely that there are other planned attacks. On the other hand if he had real connections to white power organizations this could signal something larger.


Sure, except. We know that ISIS is hoping to inspire terrorist attacks carried out by lone individuals in western nations, without any direct contact between ISIS and the attackers, and that's still considered terrorism.

So why not the same when it's a lone white supremacist carrying out an attack inspired by Stormfront, the nazis, and that ilk?
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Old 1st February 2017, 12:26 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Question is does an attack have to be organized before it qualifies as Terrorism?
My impression at this point is that there's an official qualification for terrorism (eg: the FBI has specific criteria), but nevertheless, that doesn't matter, because at the end of the day it's Terrorism if and when the authorities in power say it is.

So, a white supremacist shooting up a mosque is not a terrorist, but a muslim shooting up a church would be. "Because."
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Old 1st February 2017, 12:27 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
My impression at this point is that there's an official qualification for terrorism (eg: the FBI has specific criteria), but nevertheless, that doesn't matter, because at the end of the day it's Terrorism if and when the authorities in power say it is.

So, a white supremacist shooting up a mosque is not a terrorist, but a muslim shooting up a church would be. "Because."
I think it depends on what his agenda was: did he just want to kill Muslims because he hates them, or did he wand to send a "you're not welcome here" message to the others?
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Old 1st February 2017, 12:46 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I think it depends on what his agenda was: did he just want to kill Muslims because he hates them, or did he wand to send a "you're not welcome here" message to the others?
Yes, I think that the motive behind the crime is important. Is it a crime with political, ideological or religious motives? is it a crime due to racism, hate, alcohol and drugs? is it both? Actually we don't know much right now.
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Old 1st February 2017, 12:50 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Line 2: question (given the SHOOTING IN THE OP) about death penalty in Canada. A shooter like that is a perfect fit the death penalty, but as Border Riever pointed out, you don't have the option.
TOTALLY cool with that.

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Old 1st February 2017, 12:53 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Here is why I fine the politics of this disgusting.

Maybe he is a terrorist, maybe he is a lone idiot. This isn't a political issue it is a practical one.
Those aren't mutually exclusive, far from it. He's almost certainly both. And it was a political statement by him.
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