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Old 7th July 2016, 04:51 AM   #41
ozeco41
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Just addressing one part of this: Why was an invasion of Afghanistan in the US national interest? The usual argument from truthers is that it was needed to expedite construction of the Unocal pipeline, but this, as usual, doesn't stand up to even a cursory inspection. The agreements with the Taliban for building the pipeline were all in place by 1998; they were abandoned, as I understand it, because of the Taliban's excessively close involvement with al-Qaeda, a movement that truthers seem to think was effectively controlled by the US, because, if it wasn't, then it doesn't make sense for it to have claimed responsibility for 9/11. Construction of the pipeline, also as I understand it, is only just now recommencing, so the hypothesis is that the US created a puppet terrorist organization in order to justify the invasion of a country that would have been co-operating with the US's national interests had the puppet organization not existed, and the net result of all these diabolical machinations was to delay by nearly twenty years construction of a pipeline so vital that the Bush administration was willing to commit mass murder of its own citizens to get built. As is so often the case, it's Mobius logic that turns itself inside out to assert the opposite of what it actually proves.

Dave
I like the reasoning and the image.

The Mobius image brings to my mind the "Grand National" twin roller coaster at Blackpool. Scene of my annual holidays from late 1940's to 1951. My last visit Sept 2014. Didn't go to Pleasure Beach that time.
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Old 7th July 2016, 02:59 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
...snipped...




Let's take a look here.


Saddam's WMD

...snipped...


BOMBSHELL: New York Times Reports WMDs WERE Found in Iraq!

The New York Times shockingly admitted in an explosive front page report that thousands of WMDs were found in Iraq since the start of the war:

From 2004 to 2011, American and American-trained Iraqi troops repeatedly encountered, and on at least six occasions were wounded by, chemical weapons remaining from years earlier in Saddam Hussein’s rule.

http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/b...#ixzz3rQgifewi

snipped
My .02 on Saddam and WMD is that he believed that he had the goods.

Whoever was put in charge of Iraqi WMD research/procurement/manufacture would know what the penalty for failure would be, every sitrep going up stream would claim (whatever) was right around the corner or in stock, and by the time 'ol uncle Saddam found out he wasn't holding aces it was too late for him to do anything about it.
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Old 7th July 2016, 04:43 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
My .02 on Saddam and WMD is that he believed that he had the goods.

Whoever was put in charge of Iraqi WMD research/procurement/manufacture would know what the penalty for failure would be, every sitrep going up stream would claim (whatever) was right around the corner or in stock, and by the time 'ol uncle Saddam found out he wasn't holding aces it was too late for him to do anything about it.
The 1st Marine Division discovered brand new chemical weapons suits and gas masks still in their Chinese crates stored inside a school. There were enough for a division. Clearly the Republican Guard thought they had WMDs, and in fact they were not told that there were none until 10 days into the invasion.

So Saddam was playing a game of chicken, plus he was getting bad advice from France and Russia as they both told him that the US would never invade unilaterally. Mostly a comedy of errors all the way around.
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Old 8th July 2016, 06:33 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
My .02 on Saddam and WMD is that he believed that he had the goods.

Whoever was put in charge of Iraqi WMD research/procurement/manufacture would know what the penalty for failure would be, every sitrep going up stream would claim (whatever) was right around the corner or in stock, and by the time 'ol uncle Saddam found out he wasn't holding aces it was too late for him to do anything about it.
I disagree. I think Saddam wanted his people to think he had WMD's - his way of thumbing his nose at the international community and making himself appear strong and powerful to his subjects.
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Old 8th July 2016, 09:10 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
My .02 on Saddam and WMD is that he believed that he had the goods.

Whoever was put in charge of Iraqi WMD research/procurement/manufacture would know what the penalty for failure would be, every sitrep going up stream would claim (whatever) was right around the corner or in stock, and by the time 'ol uncle Saddam found out he wasn't holding aces it was too late for him to do anything about it.
Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
I disagree. I think Saddam wanted his people to think he had WMD's - his way of thumbing his nose at the international community and making himself appear strong and powerful to his subjects.
I haven't heard anything to the nature of Saddam ordering the use of bio-chem on the invading US Troops so I'd have to side with Mark.

One reason to have the world thinking you do, or very well might, have bio-chem capability is that its perceived as a deterrent to westerners invading. Once the USA has begun an invasion I would have expected the ordering of the use of bio or chem weapons in a limited way in the hope that it makes the invading forces slow or stop advancing and initiate talks.
OR
The whole sale inundating of the advancing troops in the hope of inflicting mass casualties and sending them back.

Just sitting back and waiting for the end seems a little odd for Saddam. I think he was bluffing, the USA called the bluff, and Saddam turned over his hand to reveal a pair of twos.

I had not heard about the Chinese weapons. If true, then perhaps with the invasion looking imminent a few weeks/months ahead of time, some faction in the S.H. administration arranged the shipment but it came a bit too late to be deployed and was instead hidden away.
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Old 8th July 2016, 09:15 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
I disagree. I think Saddam wanted his people to think he had WMD's - his way of thumbing his nose at the international community and making himself appear strong and powerful to his subjects.
That was my take all along, with the addition that he needed to make his neighbors — especially Iran — think he had WMDs. Complying with the documentation demands would have revealed that he didn't, so he played a game of chicken that he lost.
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Old 8th July 2016, 09:40 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
My .02 on Saddam and WMD is that he believed that he had the goods.

Whoever was put in charge of Iraqi WMD research/procurement/manufacture would know what the penalty for failure would be, every sitrep going up stream would claim (whatever) was right around the corner or in stock, and by the time 'ol uncle Saddam found out he wasn't holding aces it was too late for him to do anything about it.
I would like to point back to how Germany rebuilt its military after World War 1 and let's not forget British Prime Minister, Neville Chamberlain's waving his appeasement letter after meeting with Hitler. Hitler saw that as a sign of weakness and it didn't take very long before Hitler went on his rampage in Europe. Just as Hitler hated the Treaty of Versailles, Saddam hated the UN Resolutions.

Not many people are aware of what was revealed after Husayn Kamil’s departure from Iraq and what Iraqi officials later revealed about Saddam's plans to rebuild Iraqi's WMD after sanctions were lifted.

I was aware of what Saddam was doing and it was a mystery to me as to why UN officials failed to understand what Saddam was up to and ignorance of his plans to reconstitute his WMD after the sanctions were lifted.

If the world fails to learn from history, it is doomed to relive it.
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Old 8th July 2016, 10:45 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Which civil liberties were lost? Explain in great detail.

Richard Gage who seems to be a failed person has benefited from 9/11 by spreading idiotic lies of CD. Richard Gage has taken in more than a million dollars. To avoid lost money, he pays himself to the top of the 15 percent IRS bracket... Do you think AE911T is a scam for tax fraud? With a few donors in the 100,000 dollar range; is Gage taking 15,000 dollars and refunding 85,000 to the top donors, thus the donors make 20,000 dollars by cheating the IRS?

Which theory is more likely?
AE911T is a tax scam, or CD theory?

There is no benifit from 9/11 for anyone except the people who sell BS about 9/11 and lie about 9/11. Selling books, DVDs, and taking donations while spreading dirt dumb lies about CD - like Gage does.

Do you think the Crazy Idiots Team, CIT, were trying to cash in on 9/11 like others? CIT with the NoC born in their failed minds and idiot followers.

Who profits from 9/11? Snake oil salesmen, spreading lies fooling a fringe few.

Do you think CIT was trying to cash in with the NoC fly over nonsense?
What about Gage, he takes in over 500,000 dollars a year now, is he cashing in on the paranoid BS crowd?
With regards to the loss of civil liberties, I have enclosed a link from the ACLU with their criticism of the Patriot Act. A major terrorist atrocity can give a government a good excuse to introduce draconian legislation.

https://www.aclu.org/aclu-fact-sheet-patriot-act-ii
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Old 8th July 2016, 10:48 AM   #49
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Anyone who thought Saddam did not want to rebuild his wmd is deluding themselves.

That isn't the issue though. The issue was that he supposedly had done so, which really seems to have been, at best, a stretch.
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Old 8th July 2016, 10:52 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Welshman View Post
With regards to the loss of civil liberties, I have enclosed a link from the ACLU with their criticism of the Patriot Act. A major terrorist atrocity can give a government a good excuse to introduce draconian legislation.

https://www.aclu.org/aclu-fact-sheet-patriot-act-ii
You're back!

So its your take that tptb killed thousands of Americans, destroyed $billions of infrastructure, including a wing of the Pentagon, and ruined the world economy for a couple of years, in order to garner a few civil liberty roll backs?

Can I also assume you will address the main point of your own thread again soon?
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Old 8th July 2016, 11:55 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Welshman View Post
With regards to the loss of civil liberties, I have enclosed a link from the ACLU with their criticism of the Patriot Act. A major terrorist atrocity can give a government a good excuse to introduce draconian legislation.

https://www.aclu.org/aclu-fact-sheet-patriot-act-ii
You missed the bigger point, what does this have to do with 19 terrorists doing 9/11? What is your point? Are you debunking 9/11 truth, or trying to back in the inside job with BS? Gage has a job, seems only liars have benefited from 9/11.

Which liberties have you lost? Why not say it in your own words, instead of others?

Are you debunking 9/11 truth lies, or are you a CD believer with no evidence.
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Old 8th July 2016, 01:40 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
You're back!

So its your take that tptb killed thousands of Americans, destroyed $billions of infrastructure, including a wing of the Pentagon, and ruined the world economy for a couple of years, in order to garner a few civil liberty roll backs?

Can I also assume you will address the main point of your own thread again soon?
I post 7 minutes after he does,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and he's gone again! (for another week?)

Last edited by jaydeehess; 8th July 2016 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 16th July 2016, 06:53 AM   #53
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Princeton University professor Bernard Lewis publishes an article in the influential journal Foreign Affairs called “Rethinking the Middle East.” In it, he advocates a policy he calls “Lebanonization.” He says, “[A] possibility, which could even be precipitated by [Islamic] fundamentalism, is what has late been fashionable to call ‘Lebanonization.’ Most of the states of the Middle East—Egypt is an obvious exception—are of recent and artificial construction and are vulnerable to such a process. If the central power is sufficiently weakened, there is no real civil society to hold the polity together, no real sense of common identity.… Then state then disintegrates—as happened in Lebanon—into a chaos of squabbling, feuding, fighting sects, tribes, regions, and parties.” Lewis is well known as a longtime supporter of the Israeli right wing. Since the 1950s, he has argued that the West and Islam have been engaged in a titanic “clash of civilizations” and that the US should take a hard line against all Arab countries. Lewis is considered a highly influential figure to the neoconservative movement, and some neoconservatives such as Richard Perle and Harold Rhode consider him a mentor. In 1996, Perle and others influenced by Lewis will write a paper for right wing Israeli leader Benjamin Netanyahu entitled “A Clean Break” that advocates the “Lebanonization” of countries like Iraq and Syria. Lewis will remain influential after 9/11. For instance, he will have dinner with Vice President Cheney shortly before the US invasion of Iraq in 2003. Some will later suspect that Cheney and others were actually implementing Lewis’s idea by invading Iraq. Chas Freeman, former US ambassador to Saudi Arabia, will say in May 2003, just after the invasion, “The neoconservatives’ intention in Iraq was never to truly build democracy there. Their intention was to flatten it, to remove Iraq as a regional threat to Israel.”


Much along the lines of an earlier paper by Israeli Oded Yinon, the document urges the Israelis to aggressively seek the downfall of their Arab neighbors—especially Syria and Iraq—by exploiting the inherent tensions within and among the Arab States. The first step is to be the removal of Saddam Hussein in Iraq. A war with Iraq will destabilize the entire Middle East, allowing governments in Syria, Iran, Lebanon, and other countries to be replaced. “Israel will not only contain its foes; it will transcend them,” the paper says. Iraq is first on the list of nations to be transformed. Saddam Hussein must be overthrown, the authors say. But Iraq has long served as a counterweight to the Shi’ite theocracy of Iran; with the two at loggerheads, neither could pose as serious a threat to Israel as it could if not opposed by the other. To counter this, Perle and his co-authors propose restoring the Hashemites (an ancient Arab dynasty; King Faisal I of Iraq was a Hashemite) to power. Instead of the largely Shi’ite Iraqis aligning themselves with their fellow Shi’a in Iran after Hussein’s overthrow, the Hashemite government would align itself with the pro-Western Jordan, long a Hashemite regime. Unfortunately, the authors propose no plan to actually make such an extraordinary regime succession happen, nor do they seem concerned with some Iraqi Shi’ites’ alignment with Islamist terrorists or with many Shi’ites’ close ties to Iran.
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Old 16th July 2016, 07:36 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by geggy View Post
Princeton University professor Bernard Lewis
Is this original stuff, or plagiarized cut and paste stuff.
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Old 16th July 2016, 01:17 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Is this original stuff, or plagiarized cut and paste stuff.
It reads as an article from somewhere else other than the keyboard of geggy.

Curious to know from whence it originates.
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Old 16th July 2016, 05:45 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
... Curious to know from whence it originates.
I looked up the source where it was plagiarized from.
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Old 22nd August 2016, 11:59 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
It reads as an article from somewhere else other than the keyboard of geggy.

Curious to know from whence it originates.
Devil's Game: How the United States Helped Unleash Fundamentalist Islam (American Empire Project) Robert Dreyfuss
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