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Old 10th September 2016, 08:22 AM   #1
Degeneve
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French opinion poll results

I have found a very recent French opinion poll with quite surprising results (at least in my view):

- 66% of the sample believes that some information about the 911 has been hidden to the public. This percentage even increases up to 75% for people who are 18 to 24 years old

- 45% of the people think the autors of the attacks are still not known

- 28% (almost one third!) believe the US government was involved in the attacks

(Source: http://www.odoxa.fr/15-ans-apres-reg...eptembre-2001/ - In French only)

N.B. In the graphics the letters "NSP" stay for "Ne Sait Pas", i.e. "Does Not Know".

Sadly enough it seems that the thruthers crankery managed to convince more people than what one could think.

I wonder whether similar opinion polls in other countries would reach the same results.
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Old 10th September 2016, 08:36 AM   #2
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"freedom fries"
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Old 10th September 2016, 09:18 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
"freedom fries"
At least the French government took a clever decision when they decided not to participate to the Iraq invasion in 2003.
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Old 10th September 2016, 09:33 AM   #4
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That seems to be way more than in Britain.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-14572054

14% believe the US government had something to do with it.
Interestingly, that rises to around 25% in the younger generation. I wonder if this is just a byproduct of youthful rebellion, and perhaps anti-American feelings. This might also go some way to explaining the French results.
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Old 10th September 2016, 09:43 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
... - 45% of the people think the autors of the attacks are still not known ...
Oh, yes, it could not be the dead 19 terrorists. I can't be the people who did it...
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
... - 28% (almost one third!) believe the US government was involved in the attacks ...
There are idiots in France too. Who knew.
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Old 10th September 2016, 11:14 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
There are idiots in France too. Who knew.
Every country has its share of idiots...
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Old 10th September 2016, 11:45 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
I have found a very recent French opinion poll with quite surprising results (at least in my view):

- 66% of the sample believes that some information about the 911 has been hidden to the public. This percentage even increases up to 75% for people who are 18 to 24 years old

- 45% of the people think the autors of the attacks are still not known

- 28% (almost one third!) believe the US government was involved in the attacks

(Source: http://www.odoxa.fr/15-ans-apres-reg...eptembre-2001/ - In French only)

N.B. In the graphics the letters "NSP" stay for "Ne Sait Pas", i.e. "Does Not Know".

Sadly enough it seems that the thruthers crankery managed to convince more people than what one could think.

I wonder whether similar opinion polls in other countries would reach the same results.
The questions are so vague as to be meaningless. Try a specific question: "Do you believe that Larry Silverstein conspired with elements of the Federal and Local governments to smuggle hundreds of tons of high explosives into the WTC buildings, fly aircraft into them as cover, and secretly detonate these explosives, committing both mass murder and insurance fraud?"

You won't get much of a positive response. In fact, I'd stake my last nickel that if you prefaced that by the question, "Who is Larry Silverstein?", you'd get over 90% "NSP" response.
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Old 10th September 2016, 08:19 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
- 66% of the sample believes that some information about the 911 has been hidden to the public. This percentage even increases up to 75% for people who are 18 to 24 years old...
Given the form of the statement the result should be 100%

So:
34% of the French population do not read or think clearly; AND
25% of the 18 to 24 yo age sector similar.

And the valid conclusion is 'French young people in the 18 - 24 yo age group think clearer than members of the "all ages" population'.

Who would of thunk it?

Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
I wonder whether similar opinion polls in other countries would reach the same results.
Probably. I recall official reports that found that half the AU population was of below average intelligence.

...whilst comparable studies in the US found that half the US population was ABOVE average intelligence.
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Old 10th September 2016, 08:26 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
Given the form of the statement the result should be 100%

So:
34% of the French population do not read or think clearly; AND
25% of the 18 to 24 yo age sector similar.

And the valid conclusion is 'French young people in the 18 - 24 yo age group think clearer than members of the "all ages" population'.

Who would of thunk it?

Probably. I recall official reports that found that half the AU population was of below average intelligence.

...whilst comparable studies in the US found that half the US population was ABOVE average intelligence.
Except in Lake Wobegon in the US, where all the children are above average.
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Last edited by LSSBB; 10th September 2016 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 10th September 2016, 08:31 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Except in Lake Wobegon in the US, where all the children are above average.
Confession - I had to use Google.
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Old 10th September 2016, 09:16 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
Confession - I had to use Google.
I thought you might, it's an obscure reference for an Aussie.

Maybe you saw that it is used as an alternate name for a psychological syndrome (illusory superiority), that has quite some application in this forum.
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Old 10th September 2016, 09:34 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I thought you might, it's an obscure reference for an Aussie.
I guessed it had a cultural specific reference but hadn't a clue what.

Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Maybe you saw that it is used as an alternate name for a psychological syndrome (illusory superiority), that has quite some application in this forum.
Yes - I saw range of implications.

The psychology of posting behaviours has always interested me but not something I consider suitable for profitable discussion.

The pressures for reducing level of discussion over the past two to three years are interesting signs about the "late stage" of discussion interest. Are we well past the "half life" of interest in the 9/11 conspiracies? And it is 9/11 2016 as I type.

I made a brief "state of changing play" summary comment a few weeks back. And got a surprising response along the lines of "lets stop being serious and rewrite history..." "ridiculing truthers is the only valid purpose" AND "all the truther questions were answered by the early pioneers of the R Mackey era..."

Which I chose to let slide....and for ME that was a big change of approach in the presence of a silly false argument.

So maybe I'm trapped and as much subject to the trends as anyone???
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Old 10th September 2016, 11:48 PM   #13
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It is about 1009 persons on an internet poll.
The next line contradict the previous one and say it was done on a representative sample of the french population.

So I have my doubts about the result.

I know of only 1 (young idiot) french which think it was done by the governement american but he also believe in UFO and other idiotic stuff.

From all the french I know - none believe it is a conspiracy by the USA or false flag or whatever. Now this is anecdote on my side, but I know enough of my compatriot to doubt the result of such internet poll. The result are too massive 50/50 for that question at the end.
I also note that mysteriously they do not show a graphic by age for the other questions.

That the sort of poll i doubt can be extrapolated onto the french population in any way shape or form.

Last edited by Aepervius; 10th September 2016 at 11:50 PM.
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Old 10th September 2016, 11:50 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
I made a brief "state of changing play" summary comment a few weeks back. And got a surprising response along the lines of "lets stop being serious and rewrite history..." "ridiculing truthers is the only valid purpose" AND "all the truther questions were answered by the early pioneers of the R Mackey era..."

Which I chose to let slide....and for ME that was a big change of approach in the presence of a silly false argument.

So maybe I'm trapped and as much subject to the trends as anyone???
As Cosmic Yak pointed out at the time, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. We shouldn't try to educate anyone because no-one is being educated, and if no-one is being educated what's the point trying to educate anyone?

Also trolls (on both sides) will always defeat thoughtful posters (on both sides) because if you're interested in helping people understand better or improving your own understanding then talking to trolls is exasperating and exhausting so you give up, not because anyone has understood anything better but simply because you're exhausted and bored.


The Drunken Driver Has The Right Of Way - Ethan Coen


The loudest have the final say,
The wanton win, the rash hold sway,
The realist's rules of order say
The drunken driver has the right of way.

The Kubla Khan can butt in line;
The biggest brute can take what's mine;
When heavyweights break wind, that's fine;
No matter what a judge might say,
The drunken driver has the right of way.

The guiltiest feel free of guilt;
Who care not, bloom; who worry, wilt;
Plans better laid are rarely built
For forethought seldom wins the day;
The drunken driver has the right of way.

The most attentive and unfailing
Carefulness is unavailing
Wheresoever fools are flailing;
Wisdom there is held at bay;,
The drunken driver has the right of way.

De jure is de facto's slave;
The most foolhardy beat the brave;
Brass routs restraint; low lies high's grave;
When conscience leads you, it's astray;
The drunken driver has the right of way.

It's only the naivest who'll
Deny this, that the reckless rule;
When facing an oncoming fool
The practiced and sagacious say
Watch out — one side — look sharp — gang way.

However much you plan and pray,
Alas, alack, tant pis, oy vey,
Now — heretofore — til Judgment Day,
The drunken driver has the right of way.
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Old 11th September 2016, 01:04 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
So I have my doubts about the result.
....
That the sort of poll i doubt can be extrapolated onto the french population in any way shape or form.
Fully understood. I was presuming that most members would see the technical problems/limitations with the polling. So I chose to have a bit of fun.
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Old 11th September 2016, 01:27 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
That seems to be way more than in Britain.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-14572054

14% believe the US government had something to do with it.
Interestingly, that rises to around 25% in the younger generation. I wonder if this is just a byproduct of youthful rebellion, and perhaps anti-American feelings. This might also go some way to explaining the French results.
I think it's partly to do with the way in which younger people garner information. My niece and nephew who are 9 and 6 respectively are quite adept at using Youtube to find information. They will happily watch a video showing you how to craft "loom bands" or use a minecraft mod or watch a short documentary about an animal or watch a cartoon.

Wifi and a tablet enable them easy access to information, but that comes at a price because the internet is not regulated or reviewed. I had to go to the library or watch TV (a total of 4 channels!) when I was 20 let alone 6 and those sources, for the most part, were as accurate as could be. Sure you could pick up a von Däniken book or something on homoeopathy, but those were the minority.

Today of course we now have the "I saw it on the internet it must be true", that leads to "argumentum ad Youtube", which is the truther's preferred method.

Teaching children scepticism and critical thinking (as well as to ignore adverts and close them) is required more now than ever.
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Old 11th September 2016, 01:27 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
As Cosmic Yak pointed out at the time, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. We shouldn't try to educate anyone because no-one is being educated, and if no-one is being educated what's the point trying to educate anyone?
As you would guess from our discussions over the months/years - I am reasonably alert to the group dynamics. Simply stated your reading is down the same track as mine.
Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
Also trolls (on both sides) will always defeat thoughtful posters (on both sides) because if you're interested in helping people understand better or improving your own understanding.....
Fully agreed to here. The demographic of members can readily be split three ways - those who want to win, those who want to ridicule those they disagree with and those who are motivated by explaining and mutual learning. And the latter group is diminishing for two main reasons: (a) "Trolling" and troll feeding have become the dominant activity AND (b) the remaining interesting and serious discussion potential technical issues are above the comfort zone of most - debunkers and trolls alike. Proof of that self evident when a member needs to ask "what serious issues remain" BEFORE demanding that nothing more serious than truther claims should be discussed. And that is merely a rewording of a recurring theme by mediocre debunkers over many years.

However
Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
....then talking to trolls is exasperating and exhausting so you give up, not because anyone has understood anything better but simply because you're exhausted and bored.
That is NOT my reason for avoiding troll feeding. I simply do not want to reinforce the trolls ego games by jumping every time they jerk the chains. Stated simple "Why give them exactly what they are after?" And the second issue which IMO is about comprehension of the group dynamics. "Why keep responding as if they are serious with the points they make?" As if "they" believe what they are claiming. Read the flaming game folks.

So YES to your posted poem
Originally Posted by Georgio View Post

The Drunken Driver Has The Right Of Way - Ethan Coen

The loudest have the final say,.....
.....Now — heretofore — til Judgment Day,
The drunken driver has the right of way.
I think I should give a more serious - more "in depth" - response to LSSBB's earlier comment:
Quote:
....an alternate name for a psychological syndrome (illusory superiority), that has quite some application in this forum.
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Old 11th September 2016, 02:26 AM   #18
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The French? Who gives a ....? Isn't that where the Godfather of 911 conspiracy was from? Thierry something! BLOW ME!

Last edited by Dog Town; 11th September 2016 at 02:27 AM.
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Old 11th September 2016, 10:33 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
However
That is NOT my reason for avoiding troll feeding. I simply do not want to reinforce the trolls ego games by jumping every time they jerk the chains. Stated simple "Why give them exactly what they are after?" And the second issue which IMO is about comprehension of the group dynamics. "Why keep responding as if they are serious with the points they make?" As if "they" believe what they are claiming.
Understood and agreed. Exhaustion and exasperation are my personal feelings.
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Old 11th September 2016, 11:32 AM   #20
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What happens when you run a public opinion poll on a current research topic in, say, enthymology?
Or on the death of Michael Jackson?
Are such polls likely to discover true, objective facts?

Of course not. Because hardly anyone thus polled has ever bothered to go to sources and thought hard about how to embed all the known facts into a coherent train of argument. Mostly, they will be lead by hearsay or wild guesses, prejudice and other biases.

Opinion polls on matters of fact are stupid from the get-go, unless the objective is to document the extent of popular ignorance.

Proper opinion polls are about matters of opinion - such as "were the policies after 9/11 good for America?" While such opinions are still based on widespread ignorance (e.g. about what those policies were, and what their effects were), at least the poll results have a chance to reflect realistically what they truly poll: Opinions.
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