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Tags police issues , police misconduct charges

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Old 12th December 2018, 02:07 AM   #561
Planigale
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
How to get yourself shot at a traffic stop in 5 easy steps....

https://youtu.be/fizx7njnTN4?t=377
What I got from this is the complete failure of the officer to manage a difficult situation; it should be a learning opportunity. A minor issue was turned into a major one.

The officer in the second stop was obviously angry, but as a professional he should be calm and in control. What he should not have done is start off shouting then reach in and grab / grope a mother in from of her children. Help was on its way he should have kept her talking. Then he lied, he said he just wanted to talk, she got out to talk then he told her to turn round presumably to 'cuff her. The officer did threaten the children with his taser rather than his gun which was good. The most sensible action was when the family locked themselves in the car away from the angry armed man. That was an opportunity to pause and reconsider and wait for other officers to turn up. Once there were three cars there he should have then calmed down; instead he escalated swearing at the children, and smashing in the window. The officer opening fire on a car with children in was imho criminally dangerous. There was no way opening fire could have improved the situation.

Yes the mother behaved badly, but the LEO is the professional, he knows what is happening, he is not a panicked mother with a car full of hysterical children, scared that her or her children will be killed.
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Old 12th December 2018, 03:12 AM   #562
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I'm not surprised you have these kooky, hare-brained ideas about the US. People on this forum validate and congratulate you for these kinds of delusions. I don't even know what to say to something as stupid as, "Fact is that under the 2nd, historically and socially the possession of guns is held with very high esteem in the USA." I'd just shrug my shoulders and say whatever but you followed up with this, "The two clearly go together and the possession of guns wins over the right to life, with the justification being so called self defence."

Brazilian police officers kill more than 4 times as many people as American officers and they have 2/3 the population. 4/(2/3)=6. So that mean Brazilians "hold the gun in esteem that is 6 times higher than Americans." Whatever the hell that even means.

You bill yourself as Moral Oral who cares about victims of US police violence and you're definitely not looking for validation and haven't fallen for the emotional manipulation of the media. So why haven't you expressed outrage over the killings by Brazilian police officers? You have to admit either you don't care about Brazilian life or....well there is no other option.
The Brazilian police are even worse than the US police, your tu quo que argument is a fallacy.

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Delusional, epic fail. No one cares about this ****. Where do you people even get this stuff from? There's no such thing as "American exceptionalism," "rights and freedoms" are a farce. See how easy it is to debunk this crap.
http://www.pewresearch.org/2006/05/0...xceptionalism/

"Nothing is more vexing to foreigners than Americans’ belief that America is a shining city on a hill — a place apart where a better way of life exists, one to which all other peoples should aspire."

Slagging off Brazil as a way to ignore your own policing issues is you trying to maintain the idea that the USA is what we should all aspire to.

Or will you admit the US police are in a terrible state compared to the rest of the Western World?
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Old 12th December 2018, 03:37 AM   #563
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I like the bit below, at least it's honest. Do as the policeman tells you or die. Nice and simple.



Ken Crane, the president of the Phoenix Law Enforcement Association, the main police union, said that officers were not the problem in Phoenix. People should submit to police commands, he said: “We all go home safe if everybody remembers this one little word: compliance.”
He needs to be reminded he will not always be a police officer. Will he who now demands compliance no matter what, be willing to submit no matter what when he become a civilian again?

He also needs reminding his mother is a civilian and should she comply no matter what? Will he accept her being shot if she does not sufficiently comply?
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Old 12th December 2018, 04:52 AM   #564
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I like the bit below, at least it's honest. Do as the policeman tells you or die. Nice and simple.



Ken Crane, the president of the Phoenix Law Enforcement Association, the main police union, said that officers were not the problem in Phoenix. People should submit to police commands, he said: “We all go home safe if everybody remembers this one little word: compliance.”
Yea but it isn't like compliance is any surety that you are not terrifying the police officer justifying their killing of you. Police have legally executed all kinds of compliant people.
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Old 12th December 2018, 05:14 AM   #565
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
He needs to be reminded he will not always be a police officer. Will he who now demands compliance no matter what, be willing to submit no matter what when he become a civilian again?

He also needs reminding his mother is a civilian and should she comply no matter what? Will he accept her being shot if she does not sufficiently comply?
One would hope that his mother and he would know better than waving a gun around while officers are telling at them to drop the weapon.
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Old 12th December 2018, 05:19 AM   #566
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
This is nothing but histrionics and you know it.

"Or, disturbingly, is shooting them THE method of dealing with them? Is it just that there is so little care and consideration for others and the gun is held with such a high esteem, that the police and US society have decided that shooting each other as self defence, is how they deal with an armed police and armed citizens."
I can't help but notice that you didn't answer the question.
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Old 12th December 2018, 05:35 AM   #567
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
One would hope that his mother and he would know better than waving a gun around while officers are telling at them to drop the weapon.
What about waving the handcuffs you've just had put on you about?

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Old 12th December 2018, 06:01 AM   #568
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
What about waving the handcuffs you've just had put on you about?
In viewing the video if that particular case, I'd say that the cop needs to be charged, but that wasn't the case I was referring to was it.
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Old 12th December 2018, 06:10 AM   #569
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
In viewing the video if that particular case, I'd say that the cop needs to be charged, but that wasn't the case I was referring to was it.
I dunno, you weren't clear, to me at any rate, about what it was you were specifically referring to, so I took it to be a blanket approval of cops compliance methods.

Sorry if I've misunderstood.
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Old 12th December 2018, 06:33 AM   #570
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
In viewing the video if that particular case, I'd say that the cop needs to be charged, but that wasn't the case I was referring to was it.
Like that would result in any kind of conviction or damage to the officers career. They jury will find in the officers favor and they will be back on the job in no time. The system works as intended after all.
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Old 12th December 2018, 06:34 AM   #571
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
What I got from this is the complete failure of the officer to manage a difficult situation; it should be a learning opportunity. A minor issue was turned into a major one.

The officer in the second stop was obviously angry, but as a professional he should be calm and in control. What he should not have done is start off shouting then reach in and grab / grope a mother in from of her children. Help was on its way he should have kept her talking. Then he lied, he said he just wanted to talk, she got out to talk then he told her to turn round presumably to 'cuff her. The officer did threaten the children with his taser rather than his gun which was good. The most sensible action was when the family locked themselves in the car away from the angry armed man. That was an opportunity to pause and reconsider and wait for other officers to turn up. Once there were three cars there he should have then calmed down; instead he escalated swearing at the children, and smashing in the window. The officer opening fire on a car with children in was imho criminally dangerous. There was no way opening fire could have improved the situation.

Yes the mother behaved badly, but the LEO is the professional, he knows what is happening, he is not a panicked mother with a car full of hysterical children, scared that her or her children will be killed.
Exactly this. As I have said elsewhere, the police are the ones with the authority, the power, and the training. If our expectation after providing them all of that is that they can act like an offended teenager then we have failed.

So ******* what if the mother acted badly? That does not in itself justify every forceful reaction; it requires an exercise in restraint (of the self-discipline kind, not the restrain-the-perp kind).

Use of force is an escalating scale. Physical threat A requires Physical response B and so on. What we see in videos shown on this thread is that escalation happens when there is an emotional threat instead.
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Old 12th December 2018, 07:29 AM   #572
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
Exactly this. As I have said elsewhere, the police are the ones with the authority, the power, and the training. If our expectation after providing them all of that is that they can act like an offended teenager then we have failed.
I've said before my problem is not that I hate the police, it's that I apparently have too much respect for the police, and consequently my expectations for them are too high. I expect them to behave in a manner to protect and serve, and to do their job well, and when those among them screw up, to do what they can to try to correct the mistakes and prevent more from happening.

That, according to some, appears to be too much to ask.
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Old 12th December 2018, 07:53 AM   #573
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
One would hope that his mother and he would know better than waving a gun around while officers are telling at them to drop the weapon.
I am thinking of the shootings where people have tried to comply or have not posed much of a threat and are unarmed.
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Old 12th December 2018, 07:55 AM   #574
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I've said before my problem is not that I hate the police, it's that I apparently have too much respect for the police, and consequently my expectations for them are too high. I expect them to behave in a manner to protect and serve, and to do their job well, and when those among them screw up, to do what they can to try to correct the mistakes and prevent more from happening.

That, according to some, appears to be too much to ask.
I'm with you.
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Old 12th December 2018, 09:13 AM   #575
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
That someone is posting on a thread, asking for advice on how not to get shot by the police during a routine traffic stop, is evidence that the behaviour of the police in the USA is not what should be expected of a police officer.

I hate referring to those people in uniform as cops or police because that is not how they work.

To me a police officer is someone who has signed up to take risks to themselves so as to preserve the lives of others. Their duty is to detect and arrest suspect criminals so that they should be taken to court and justice served. They are there to calm situations down and preserve the peace. They are there to make good people feel safe and bad people worry they will be caught and convicted. In the UK those duties are enshrined in the law and form the basis of how they are trained.

It has been made abundantly clear by many that in the USA, the police have no duty to protect the public (I believe that may even be backed by law). They are not expected to take risks. It is fine for them to shoot to kill and not arrest. The will inflame situations, make them much worse and think there is no place for patient talking down of violent incidents. They make good people feel scared. They make bad people react with extreme violence back at them because they do not realise the tough guy act causes others to act tough back. The makes many US police no different from vigilante thugs dishing out summary justice.

Why do so many on this forum keep on defending the behaviour of their police and how they are policed?
No duty to protect the public stems from a case many years ago where the court determined the responding officers at a home that had been broken into but would not go in to check for criminals in the house had the choice to do that and were not required to. I have no intention of trying to locate that decision but it was published in a newspaper in Florida which means it had to be after 1990 as that was when we moved to Florida.
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Old 12th December 2018, 09:20 AM   #576
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
No duty to protect the public stems from a case many years ago where the court determined the responding officers at a home that had been broken into but would not go in to check for criminals in the house had the choice to do that and were not required to. I have no intention of trying to locate that decision but it was published in a newspaper in Florida which means it had to be after 1990 as that was when we moved to Florida.

Warren v. District of Columbia.

The disconnect between the above (if you've never read the facts of the case, peruse the wikipedia entry and feel extremely sick about the whole thing, it really is horrifying) and the fact that LEO's get massive leaway to defend themselves against imagined attacks is abhorrent.
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Old 12th December 2018, 09:29 AM   #577
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Warren V. District of Columbia is one of those cases I'm surprised people aren't more outraged about.

Added to that the fact that "Failure to / Refusing to Assist A Police Officer" or some similar stand alone law or language written into broader "Hindering an investigation" laws or something that operates on that same functional level exists on the Federal and pretty much every state/local level that I can find and you have this wonderfully unfair world where we a citizenry are legally required to assist police officers who aren't legally required to protect us.

So we have this weird legal landscape where a cop and me could be walking down the street, come upon a crime in progress, the cop orders me to help him and I'm in the legal wrong if I refuse but the cop isn't in the legal wrong if he just walks past the crime and does nothing.
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Old 12th December 2018, 09:30 AM   #578
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
No duty to protect the public stems from a case many years ago where the court determined the responding officers at a home that had been broken into but would not go in to check for criminals in the house had the choice to do that and were not required to. I have no intention of trying to locate that decision but it was published in a newspaper in Florida which means it had to be after 1990 as that was when we moved to Florida.
My favorite is the cops who ran and hid while a guy was getting stabbed on the subway and it was up to the victim to subdue the attacker. The cops subsequently were hailed as heroes of course.

"In the spring of 2012, Joseph Lozito, who was brutally stabbed and "grievously wounded, deeply slashed around the head and neck", sued police for negligence in failing to render assistance to him as he was being attacked by Gelman.[21][22][23] Lozito told reporters that he decided to file the lawsuit after allegedly learning from "a grand-jury member" that NYPD officer Terrance Howell testified that he hid from Gelman before and while Lozito was being attacked because Howell thought Gelman had a gun.[24][25] In response to the suit, attorneys for the City of New York argued that police had no duty to protect Lozito or any other person from Gelman.[24] On July 25, 2013, Judge Margaret Chan dismissed Lozito's suit, stating that while Lozito's account of the attack rang true and appeared "highly credible", Chan agreed that police had "no special duty" to protect Lozito.[21][22][26] Lozito later gave an account of the aftermath[27] to Cracked.com and narrated a video, offering his perspective of the event and as a warning to others involved in similar situations."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maksim..._spree#Victims

The basic rule is that cops can do no wrong.
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Old 12th December 2018, 09:32 AM   #579
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Warren V. District of Columbia is one of those cases I'm surprised people aren't more outraged about.

Added to that the fact that "Failure to / Refusing to Assist A Police Officer" or some similar stand alone law or language written into broader "Hindering an investigation" laws or something that operates on that same functional level exists on the Federal and pretty much every state/local level that I can find and you have this wonderfully unfair world where we a citizenry are legally required to assist police officers who aren't legally required to protect us.
It fits perfectly with the idea that only blue lives matter. That is very popular and on tons of bumper stickers. As many of these are presumably not police they would clearly happily die to make any cop feel more safe.
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Old 12th December 2018, 09:32 AM   #580
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Warren V. District of Columbia is one of those cases I'm surprised people aren't more outraged about.
Before I looked it up today, I knew the vague substance of the ruling.

The events that brought about such a cowardly, wussy, wimpy and, quite frankly, unAmerican verdict actually made me feel a little sick.
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Old 12th December 2018, 12:55 PM   #581
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Warren V. District of Columbia is one of those cases I'm surprised people aren't more outraged about.

Added to that the fact that "Failure to / Refusing to Assist A Police Officer" or some similar stand alone law or language written into broader "Hindering an investigation" laws or something that operates on that same functional level exists on the Federal and pretty much every state/local level that I can find and you have this wonderfully unfair world where we a citizenry are legally required to assist police officers who aren't legally required to protect us.

So we have this weird legal landscape where a cop and me could be walking down the street, come upon a crime in progress, the cop orders me to help him and I'm in the legal wrong if I refuse but the cop isn't in the legal wrong if he just walks past the crime and does nothing.
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Old 12th December 2018, 01:25 PM   #582
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The Brazilian police are even worse than the US police, your tu quo que argument is a fallacy.
Not a tu quoque fallacy. I used Brazilian police to debunk your fallacious argument that Americans "holding the gun in high esteem" and "the 2nd" (amendment?) was the cause of US police violence. I also used the Brazilian police to show you are selected in your outrage, don't care about victims of police violence in any country, are looking for social validation and fall for the emotional manipulation of the media.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
http://www.pewresearch.org/2006/05/0...xceptionalism/

"Nothing is more vexing to foreigners than Americans’ belief that America is a shining city on a hill — a place apart where a better way of life exists, one to which all other peoples should aspire."
Never heard one person say this but whatever it's just to divert from the reaming I'm giving you.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Slagging off Brazil as a way to ignore your own policing issues is you trying to maintain the idea that the USA is what we should all aspire to.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I seriously believe some people on this forum have become incapable of distinguishing fantasy from reality. Another Scottish guy thought it was perfectly legal in the US to walk into a restaurant and wave a gun. You think in the US, police "shooting them is THE (all caps in original) method of dealing with them?" Other than this forum, I'm not sure where you people are getting these off-the-wall ideas about the US but it's quite telling that you people actually believe them.

"Holding the gun in high esteem" isn't even a truth-apt statement but I can point out how stupid it is. In the US, gun rights are divisive and attitudes on gun laws vary widely throughout the country. 25% of Americans own at least one gun and sure you can say a certain segment of the population "holds the gun in high esteem." But to say that's what's causing police violence, well, that's just stupid.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Or will you admit the US police are in a terrible state compared to the rest of the Western World?
I already had a conversation with you about this. We can talk about US police violence all day. But if you say stupid stuff, expect to get called out on it. And you have an ax to grind with the US and you get more social points from your peers if you hold the US to one standard and brown countries to another (it's your white supremacy showing.)
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Old 12th December 2018, 01:50 PM   #583
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Not a tu quoque fallacy. I used Brazilian police to debunk your fallacious argument that Americans "holding the gun in high esteem" and "the 2nd" (amendment?) was the cause of US police violence.
I did not make that argument. In general, for the whole of the USA, that the gun has a high place in US society is one of the reasons why the USA has such a general gun problem. There are other more specific reasons why there is a problem with the police, such as training, a lack of worry about consequences, over aggression etc.

Quote:
I also used the Brazilian police to show you are selected in your outrage, don't care about victims of police violence in any country, are looking for social validation and fall for the emotional manipulation of the media.
This thread is about the US police. I started it due to all the other threads about the US police. My criticisms of the US police do not mean I do not care about other country's issues.

It is a tue quo que argument to claim another is even worse, to try and distract from the issues under discussion.

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Never heard one person say this but whatever it's just to divert from the reaming I'm giving you.
You said there was no such thing as American exceptionalism. You were wrong. The last documentary I watched about the USA had a UK actress touring around the country and she encountered American exceptionalism. It was eye opening for the Americans to have it shown to them that the USA was no where near as great as they believed.

Quote:
Stop putting words in my mouth. I seriously believe some people on this forum have become incapable of distinguishing fantasy from reality. Another Scottish guy thought it was perfectly legal in the US to walk into a restaurant and wave a gun. You think in the US, police "shooting them is THE (all caps in original) method of dealing with them?" Other than this forum, I'm not sure where you people are getting these off-the-wall ideas about the US but it's quite telling that you people actually believe them.

"Holding the gun in high esteem" isn't even a truth-apt statement but I can point out how stupid it is. In the US, gun rights are divisive and attitudes on gun laws vary widely throughout the country. 25% of Americans own at least one gun and sure you can say a certain segment of the population "holds the gun in high esteem." But to say that's what's causing police violence, well, that's just stupid.
Indeed, which is why I never made that argument.

Quote:
I already had a conversation with you about this. We can talk about US police violence all day. But if you say stupid stuff, expect to get called out on it. And you have an ax to grind with the US and you get more social points from your peers if you hold the US to one standard and brown countries to another (it's your white supremacy showing.)
My interest in this topic is due to having worked in the US as a security guard and seen shootings and the police in action, then working in the UK as a police officer where one of my duties was firearms licensing and attended a number of firearms incidents. I have a rather unique experience of gun control.
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Old 12th December 2018, 08:58 PM   #584
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I did not make that argument.
You need to be aware that anyone can go back and look to see that you did, in fact, make that argument. The forum software even enables one to quote the argument you did make, and hi-lite the pertinent parts.
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Fact is US police officers regularly shoot citizens who are unarmed, or were the good guy with the gun and then they claim self defence. That is their method of dealing with the shootings. They claim their own life was at risk and so the shooting was justified, even when that is dubious to say the least.

Fact is that under the 2nd, historically and socially the possession of guns is held with very high esteem in the USA.

The two clearly go together and the possession of guns wins over the right to life, with the justification being so called self defence. Even when that is good guys with guns defending themselves from each other.
I understand it's embarrassing but you really did say that. I said you must also believe Brazilians "hold the gun in high esteem" (whatever that means) because Brazilian police "regularly shoots citizens" at a rate 6 times more per capita than the US police. You never clarified whether you did or didn't. You said it was a "tu quo que fallacy" and a "distraction." And that brings me to my next point.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
This thread is about the US police. I started it due to all the other threads about the US police. My criticisms of the US police do not mean I do not care about other country's issues.

It is a tue quo que argument to claim another is even worse, to try and distract from the issues under discussion.
Yet the first post other than the OP in this thread was about a police force that was not the US. You didn't tell zooterkin that his post was a "tu quo que fallacy" and a "distraction." You even posted this image comparing police shootings of different countries.

https://theconversation.imgix.net/fi...=format&w=1000

In fact....

Nessie:
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It puts the higher instance of shootings in the USA compared to Europe down to;
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Taking sources that are more about the behaviour of the police from other threads, here is a very good study about the police in Canada

http://theindependent.ca/2015/04/14/...ngs-in-canada/

Canada has 0.7 fatal shootings by the police per 100,000 (the USA 2.9, the UK 0.04) The problem for Canada is Alberta which skews the figures. The article goes on to note that;
...
The UK cop is expected to use de-escalation tactics and those with guns are highly trained.
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
No cop in the UK has been convicted of an unlawful killing, whether a shooting that was suspect to say the least (de Menezes) or use of force (Ian Tomlinson) or the numerous deaths in custody. There is a chance, finally that cops will be held properly accountable for deaths with the Hillsborough trials.

So the UK is like the USA, cops are very unlikely to be punished for deaths. But they kill at a far lower rate. So, the reason is elsewhere.
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
As for zero defects being a reasonable standard, it is reasonable to set as a target that there are no wrongful shootings by the police. That standard is set and being achieved by police forces all over Europe.
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I think it is worth noting that ALL deaths, whether in police custody, or due to being shot or even in accidents where a police car is involved, are automatically referred to the IPCC (England & Wales) or PIRC (Scotland) or the PONI (Northern Ireland).

England & Wales have numerous police forces that come under the remit of the IPCC. Scotland has one main force, but there are a few smaller forces which police the railways and nuclear facilities. NI is the only one with one force.

If you think of each part of the UK as a state, you can see how it there is a model that could be copied in the USA. Each state has a review board who examine all deaths involving all the police forces in that state.
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
If this incident had happened in the UK, the reaction would have been universal horror and no one would try and justify it.
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It is because UK police rarely carry body cams and because the Uk police rarely shoot, let alone execute anyone.
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The police in Scotland are desperate to have most police armed with tazers, despite all statistics showing a huge reduction in violent crime (the police's own stats included).
.
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Scotland is far more like Umea, where the US cop comments on not seeing any police or hearing any sirens and it is a Friday night.
Also Nessie:
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
This thread is about the US police.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKKKKKKKKKK
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The Brazilian police are even worse than the US police, your tu quo que argument is a fallacy. ..Slagging off Brazil as a way to ignore your own policing issues is you trying to maintain the idea that the USA is what we should all aspire to.
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It is a tue quo que argument to claim another is even worse, to try and distract from the issues under discussion.
Why the inconsistency? Because you weren't expecting someone to call you out on your double standards and it knocked you off your high horse. And like Christopher Reeves, it paralyzed you.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You said there was no such thing as American exceptionalism. You were wrong. The last documentary I watched about the USA had a UK actress touring around the country and she encountered American exceptionalism. It was eye opening for the Americans to have it shown to them that the USA was no where near as great as they believed.
I'm not surprised you're taken in by videos of actresses on the Internet. You should be aware that many things you see on the Internet are faked, staged, cherry picked and selectively edited. Things on the Internet are not often accurate representations of reality, nor are the people in videos representatives of their countries of origin. It's sad to see what has happened to the minds of the people on this forum. That's enough with this diversion of yours.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
My interest in this topic is due to having worked in the US as a security guard and seen shootings and the police in action, then working in the UK as a police officer where one of my duties was firearms licensing and attended a number of firearms incidents. I have a rather unique experience of gun control.
And yet you don't have anything meaningful to say about the topic. Being an overnight rent-a-cop at construction facility in Boston for 6 months doesn't give you any insight about gun control. Your posts are nothing more than the predictable recycled and regurgitated nonsense from the BBC and Guardian. The usual hysterics and opinionated nonsense and statements that aren't even truth-apt--statements like "the possession of guns wins over the right to life" (seriously, who talks like this?) Your posts aren't measured responses to complicated issues, they are the usual ramblings that can be substituted for "if everyone had my superior moral fiber they'd be as outraged as I am and these problems would disappear." I hate to tell a seasoned skeptic this but the world does not work that way.

Last edited by Baylor; 12th December 2018 at 10:57 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 12th December 2018, 10:12 PM   #585
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Ahahahahaha, Baylor is so cute. Oh damn...
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Old 12th December 2018, 11:05 PM   #586
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I'm not surprised you're taken in by videos of actresses on the Internet. You should be aware that many things you see on the Internet are faked, staged, cherry picked and selectively edited. Things on the Internet are not often accurate representations of reality, nor are the people in videos representatives of their countries of origin. It's sad to see what has happened to the minds of the people on this forum. That's enough with this diversion of yours.
One of the more brainless things I've seen in a while. We've had numerous posters on these very boards who overtly espoused American Exceptionalism. Notwithstanding some notable political organizations...

Last edited by Shadowdweller; 12th December 2018 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 12th December 2018, 11:28 PM   #587
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
One of the more brainless things I've seen in a while. We've had numerous posters on these very boards who overtly espoused American Exceptionalism. Notwithstanding some notable political organizations...
Try following along. Nessie said my motivations for pointing out how stupid his arguments were was because it was an attack on "American Exceptionalism."
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The situation is clearly deeply flawed and very mixed up. You hate having that pointed out, because it is an affront to American exceptionalism, rights and freedoms.
This is wrong because I don't believe in "American Exceptionalism."
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Old 12th December 2018, 11:57 PM   #588
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Try following along. Nessie said my motivations for pointing out how stupid his arguments were was because it was an attack on "American Exceptionalism."
Funny, because here you are saying precisely what Nessie claimed you said. Do try following along.

Originally Posted by Baylor
Delusional, epic fail. No one cares about this ****. Where do you people even get this stuff from? There's no such thing as "American exceptionalism," "rights and freedoms" are a farce. See how easy it is to debunk this crap.
I'd also recommend you try looking up "tu quoque" and "whataboutism" since you clearly haven't the faintest clue as to why such arguments might not be persuasive...
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Old 13th December 2018, 12:02 AM   #589
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
Funny, because here you are saying precisely what Nessie claimed you said. Do try following along.
So what?

Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
I'd also recommend you try looking up "tu quoque" and "whataboutism" since you clearly haven't the faintest clue as to why such arguments might not be persuasive...
Dumb
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Old 13th December 2018, 12:23 AM   #590
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
So what?
You might consider trying to (more clearly) differentiate between 1) "I don't personally endorse American Exceptionalism" and 2) "I don't believe American Exceptionalism exists"

...if your intent is to challenge Nessie's claim on the subject.

Last edited by Shadowdweller; 13th December 2018 at 12:27 AM.
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Old 13th December 2018, 12:45 AM   #591
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
You might consider trying to (more clearly) differentiate between 1) "I don't personally endorse American Exceptionalism" and 2) "I don't believe American Exceptionalism exists"

...if your intent is to challenge Nessie's claim on the subject.
Nessie strangely brought up "American Exceptionalism" and falsely attributed it to my motivations. This derail is over.
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Old 13th December 2018, 12:58 AM   #592
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Baylor losing again. Always losing.
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Old 13th December 2018, 02:57 AM   #593
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
You need to be aware that anyone can go back and look to see that you did, in fact, make that argument. The forum software even enables one to quote the argument you did make, and hi-lite the pertinent parts.

I understand it's embarrassing but you really did say that.
What you quoted is not me making the argument that the cause of US Police violence was because the gun and the 2nd Amendment is held in high esteem.

I was saying that the police use self defence as an excuse to shoot. You highlighted the wrong part because you misunderstood.

Quote:
I said you must also believe Brazilians "hold the gun in high esteem" (whatever that means) because Brazilian police "regularly shoots citizens" at a rate 6 times more per capita than the US police. You never clarified whether you did or didn't. You said it was a "tu quo que fallacy" and a "distraction." And that brings me to my next point.
I do not know if Brazil applies the same esteem to the gun or has a right to bear arms. It does also have a gun problem, particularly with the police. The reasons for that will likely have some similar and some different causes to the issue in the USA.

It is a tu quo que fallacy to argue against the US Police having an issue with shooting people, by pointing out so does the Brazilian police.


Quote:
Yet the first post other than the OP in this thread was about a police force that was not the US. You didn't tell zooterkin that his post was a "tu quo que fallacy" and a "distraction." You even posted this image comparing police shootings of different countries.

https://theconversation.imgix.net/fi...=format&w=1000

In fact....

Nessie:









Also Nessie:

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKKKKKKKKKK



Why the inconsistency? Because you weren't expecting someone to call you out on your double standards and it knocked you off your high horse. And like Christopher Reeves, it paralyzed you.
The OP was the question "Why do so many on this forum keep on defending the behaviour of their police and how they are policed?"

That Zooterkin posted the UK policing principles in the next post is not a tu quo que. He just added a reference to show how the UK police operate in basic principles.

You still clearly do not understand a tu quo que argument.

Quote:
I'm not surprised you're taken in by videos of actresses on the Internet. You should be aware that many things you see on the Internet are faked, staged, cherry picked and selectively edited. Things on the Internet are not often accurate representations of reality, nor are the people in videos representatives of their countries of origin. It's sad to see what has happened to the minds of the people on this forum. That's enough with this diversion of yours.
Various Americans were telling her that the USA is the greatest country in the world. She pointed out that there are numerous measures of that (the various international indexes of freedom, happiness, health care provision etc and that the USA does not top any of them, except military spending. I take your point it was a bit of a derail and I will not attribute American exceptionalism to you again.

Quote:
And yet you don't have anything meaningful to say about the topic. Being an overnight rent-a-cop at construction facility in Boston for 6 months doesn't give you any insight about gun control. Your posts are nothing more than the predictable recycled and regurgitated nonsense from the BBC and Guardian. The usual hysterics and opinionated nonsense and statements that aren't even truth-apt--statements like "the possession of guns wins over the right to life" (seriously, who talks like this?) Your posts aren't measured responses to complicated issues, they are the usual ramblings that can be substituted for "if everyone had my superior moral fiber they'd be as outraged as I am and these problems would disappear." I hate to tell a seasoned skeptic this but the world does not work that way.
So, why do so many on this forum keep on defending the behaviour of their police and how they are policed?

Are you fine with the very high rate of police shootings in the USA?
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Old 13th December 2018, 08:17 AM   #594
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‘Appalling’ Video Shows the Police Yanking 1-Year-Old From His Mother’s Arms

Quote:
A Facebook user who uploaded the video said the police had been called on Friday after the woman, identified by the police as Jazmine Headley, 23, sat on the floor of the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program office in Boerum Hill because there were no available chairs.

After a verbal dispute with a security guard, someone called the police, according to Nyashia Ferguson, who posted the video..[Snip]

A female sergeant and three police officers, two of whom appear to be women, surround Ms. Headley and attempt to pull the child away. Then one officer, her back facing the camera, repeatedly yanks the child in an apparent attempt to separate him from his mother.
Another one of those 'if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail' situations.
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Old 13th December 2018, 09:56 PM   #595
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
What you quoted is not me making the argument that the cause of US Police violence was because the gun and the 2nd Amendment is held in high esteem.
I was saying that the police use self defence as an excuse to shoot. You highlighted the wrong part because you misunderstood.
You said police shootings and "the 2nd" (amendment?) "clearly go together." That implies a causal relationship between the two. If someone did misunderstand what you were saying you shouldn't use such lazy and ambiguous verbiage. I still have no idea what you mean by "the 2nd" (amendment?) and police shootings "clearly go[ing] together."
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I do not know if Brazil applies the same esteem to the gun or has a right to bear arms. It does also have a gun problem, particularly with the police. The reasons for that will likely have some similar and some different causes to the issue in the USA.
Brazil and the US have a lot in common. Both large countries with diverse populations. Both are medium to low trust societies. Both have large racial and ethnic minorities and both border dysfunctional and corrupt 3rd world countries. You can't apply what works in an all white country of 5 million to the United States or Brazil. The same people who laugh at Fox News for comparing Venezuela to Denmark go off and compare the US to Norway.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It is a tu quo que fallacy to argue against the US Police having an issue with shooting people, by pointing out so does the Brazilian police.
My concern for members' losing their grip on reality continues. I never argued for "American Exceptionalism," or to "maintain the idea that the USA is what [you] should all aspire to," or "against the US police having an issue with shooting people." These are all things you have imagined. It is very frustrating trying to have a discussion with people who cannot distinguish from their own delusions and reality.


Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The OP was the question "Why do so many on this forum keep on defending the behaviour of their police and how they are policed?"
I see few if any members here defending police. I see them trying to calm you down from your hysterics. When you start off a discussion by trying to make it a competition to see who is the most outraged, people are going to be put off by this. There are innumerable injustices everyday throughout the world, people are suspicious of your obsession with the US police, and your chest thumping how great police are in all-white countries. They might think you have an animus towards Americans or black and Hispanic people.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
That Zooterkin posted the UK policing principles in the next post is not a tu quo que.
I know it isn't, and neither was my reference to Brazilian police. We are discussing police across the world, and the Brazilian police is a better comparison to the US than the Netherlands (lol). You want us to know you are outraged by police shootings so it makes sense you should be up in arms about Brazil's police (don't get me started on Mexcio's.) Asking why you haven't expressed outraged over the Brazilian police is a legitimate question for your chosen topic of discussion. A tu quo que fallacy would be me saying you have no place to talk because UK is the acid attack capital of the world.
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You still clearly do not understand a tu quo que argument.
This is very poor argumentation. Someone with 11,000+ posts should strive for better. Try for quality not quantity.
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
So, why do so many on this forum keep on defending the behaviour of their police and how they are policed?
Please be aware this is the second time in this post you asked this question.

Last edited by Baylor; 13th December 2018 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 14th December 2018, 03:57 AM   #596
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
You said police shootings and "the 2nd" (amendment?) "clearly go together." That implies a causal relationship between the two. If someone did misunderstand what you were saying you shouldn't use such lazy and ambiguous verbiage. I still have no idea what you mean by "the 2nd" (amendment?) and police shootings "clearly go[ing] together."
I did not say what you suggest I did.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12530584

You have mashed bits of what I said together and misunderstood me.

I was very specific that I regard claims of self defence as a major cause of police shootings.

I then referenced the USA in general and the high esteem it has for guns, as exemplified by the 2nd.

I then said that the high esteem for guns helps to enables the police to get away with claiming self defence.

Quote:
Brazil and the US have a lot in common. Both large countries with diverse populations. Both are medium to low trust societies. Both have large racial and ethnic minorities and both border dysfunctional and corrupt 3rd world countries. You can't apply what works in an all white country of 5 million to the United States or Brazil. The same people who laugh at Fox News for comparing Venezuela to Denmark go off and compare the US to Norway.
It is still a tu quo que arguement. Yes Brazil has a problem. The discussion here was the one in the USA.

Quote:
My concern for members' losing their grip on reality continues. I never argued for "American Exceptionalism," or to "maintain the idea that the USA is what [you] should all aspire to," or "against the US police having an issue with shooting people." These are all things you have imagined. It is very frustrating trying to have a discussion with people who cannot distinguish from their own delusions and reality.


I see few if any members here defending police. I see them trying to calm you down from your hysterics. When you start off a discussion by trying to make it a competition to see who is the most outraged, people are going to be put off by this. There are innumerable injustices everyday throughout the world, people are suspicious of your obsession with the US police, and your chest thumping how great police are in all-white countries. They might think you have an animus towards Americans or black and Hispanic people.

I know it isn't, and neither was my reference to Brazilian police.
Yes it was.

Quote:
We are discussing police across the world,
The topic is the US Police.

Quote:
and the Brazilian police is a better comparison to the US than the Netherlands (lol). You want us to know you are outraged by police shootings so it makes sense you should be up in arms about Brazil's police (don't get me started on Mexcio's.) Asking why you haven't expressed outraged over the Brazilian police is a legitimate question for your chosen topic of discussion. A tu quo que fallacy would be me saying you have no place to talk because UK is the acid attack capital of the world.
That is the tu quo que fallacy.

That I have not criticised the Brazilian police in a thread about the US Police does not therefore mean I am being hypocritical and ignoring the clear faults in Brazil.

You have introduced the Brazilian Police to try and make out it is somehow wrong to criticise the US Police, which it is not.

Quote:
This is very poor argumentation. Someone with 11,000+ posts should strive for better. Try for quality not quantity.
Please be aware this is the second time in this post you asked this question.
The poor performance I leave to you.
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Old 14th December 2018, 02:03 PM   #597
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Game over Nessie. You can stop with this charade of yours.

YOUR chosen topic of discussion was "the behavior of US police officers." YOU are the one who used infographics to compare US police shootings to different countries'. YOU are the one who compared US police to police in other countries no fewer than 10 times.

Anyone can go back and see you did in fact use an infographic to compare US police shooting to those of different countries.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
A very relevant study to the topic

https://theconversation.com/why-do-a...ean-cops-49696

It puts the higher instance of shootings in the USA compared to Europe down to;

More guns and aggression.
Racism.
Type of training, or lack of.
Lower level of threat where deadly force is accepted by the courts.

https://theconversation.imgix.net/fi...=format&w=1000
Then, when someone compares US to Brazil, anyone can see that you are saying this:

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The discussion here was the one in the USA.
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The topic is the US Police.
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
This thread is about the US police.
You then try to dig yourself out of this hole by saying this:
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You have introduced the Brazilian Police to try and make out it is somehow wrong to criticise the US Police, which it is not.
Anyone can go back and see that I never said this. This happened only in your own mind.

I know you invested a lot of time playing Moral Orel but you really should abandon it now that you've been exposed as just another person feigning outrage over the Internet. You've been checkmated and you have no one to blame but yourself.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I then said that the high esteem for guns helps to enables the police to get away with claiming self defence.
Strange non-sequitur

Edited by Agatha:  Edited for rule 5 in quote

Last edited by Agatha; 21st December 2018 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 14th December 2018, 04:50 PM   #598
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Guess it depends what you aspire to...
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Old 14th December 2018, 04:55 PM   #599
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
"Nothing is more vexing to foreigners than Americans’ belief that America is a shining city on a hill — a place apart where a better way of life exists, one to which all other peoples should aspire."
Most "foreigners" who want to leave their countries want to come to the USA. If you can convince them not to I'm absolutely fine with that.
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Old 14th December 2018, 07:22 PM   #600
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Some facts missing from this thread:

There are 50 states.

Each state has it's own, independent standards for law enforcement officers. Some states have minimum, state-wide standards for training, and others do not.

Law enforcement is divided into sub-entities: State Police, City Police, County/Parish Sheriff's Departments, and a few states have constables.(This does not count the many Federal agencies)

Every police department has its own unique internal culture.

Every police department is subject to an applied budget.

Cops are expensive.

Under U.S. and State liability laws it is simply cheaper to kill a suspect than to wound that suspect.

Police officers have a powerful union with sharp lawyers.

There are between 750,000 and 850,000 sworn law enforcement officers in the U.S.

In 2017 police shot and killed 1,000 people in a country with a population of 325.7 million. (39,000 civilians shot and killed each other in the same time frame) (46 law enforcement officers were killed in the line of duty in 2017).


******

Where I live there are 9 different police departments within a 25 square mile zone, and there is also the California Highway Patrol. Some departments are staffed by great officers, and others have a reputation for being jerks. In California we have the Police Officer Standards & Training program wherein all officers must receive the same minimum training. The theory is that a cop in Fresno should perform at the same level as cops in Sacramento, and San Diego. For most part, POST has worked. (San Francisco, Los Angeles, and the CHP have their own academies).

Only two of these local police departments have had officer-involved shootings in the past decade, and all were justified.
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Last edited by Axxman300; 14th December 2018 at 07:23 PM.
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