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Tags police issues , police misconduct charges

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Old 20th December 2018, 03:38 AM   #641
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
What was I wrong about?
Pretty much everything you have ever posted but in this specific incidence 21% of people does not equate to 'most' people.
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Old 20th December 2018, 12:32 PM   #642
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Pretty much everything you have ever posted but in this specific incidence 21% of people does not equate to 'most' people.
I never said it did.
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Old 20th December 2018, 02:11 PM   #643
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Baylor just asserts he knows my motivations and the supposed real meaning of what I post. He does so because he cannot argue against my point that since the gun is held in such high esteem in the USA it enables the police (and many citizens) to get away with claims of self defence that are clearly not self defence at all.
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Old 20th December 2018, 09:46 PM   #644
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Most "foreigners" who want to leave their countries want to come to the USA.
And you will have data to support that?
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
If you weren't posting this link as an attempt to support the highlighted post, why did you post it in response to Archie Gemmill Goal?
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Old 20th December 2018, 09:50 PM   #645
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Earlier in this thread I put a forth a convincing argument that there are many similarities between the US and Brazil. And some of these similarities are likely responsible for the high levels of police violence of both countries. It's makes more sense to compare the US to Brazil than to Norway (lol). But that wouldn't give the empathetic thread starter the attention and validation he was looking for.
It's a long thread and I admit that I haven't read every post, so I missed those ones. Could you give a post number or link to the argument?
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Old 20th December 2018, 09:51 PM   #646
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Baylor just asserts he knows my motivations and the supposed real meaning of what I post. He does so because he cannot argue against my point that since the gun is held in such high esteem in the USA it enables the police (and many citizens) to get away with claims of self defence that are clearly not self defence at all.
I don't think you've shown the causal connection between those two things. Again, like with Baylor I may have simply missed the posts where you did so, and if so I apologise, maybe you could point me to them.
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Old 20th December 2018, 09:58 PM   #647
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
If you weren't posting this link as an attempt to support the highlighted post, why did you post it in response to Archie Gemmill Goal?
To show that the US is the most popular destination for migrants.
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Old 20th December 2018, 10:02 PM   #648
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
It's a long thread and I admit that I haven't read every post, so I missed those ones. Could you give a post number or link to the argument?
Namely this one: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post12534255

My first post here is on page 14 so you don't need to go far back to see my takedowns of Nessie.

Last edited by Baylor; 20th December 2018 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 20th December 2018, 10:21 PM   #649
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Baylor just asserts he knows my motivations and the supposed real meaning of what I post. He does so because he cannot argue against my point that since the gun is held in such high esteem in the USA it enables the police (and many citizens) to get away with claims of self defence that are clearly not self defence at all.
I ripped this apart before and I'll do it again.

"Holding the gun in high esteem [by whom?]" is not a truth-apt statement.

"Since the gun is held in such high esteem[by whom?] in the USA it enables the police (and many citizens) to get away with claims of self defence," is a non-sequitor.

Who "holds the gun in high esteem?" Why are you using the passive voice?
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Old 21st December 2018, 02:48 AM   #650
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I don't think you've shown the causal connection between those two things. Again, like with Baylor I may have simply missed the posts where you did so, and if so I apologise, maybe you could point me to them.
It is my opinion, based on what I have seen, all the incidents I have read about and the studies of defensive gun use.

The gun is held with higher esteem in the USA than it is in the UK. My reasons for saying that are from what I have seen and read.

The gun is far more part of the culture due to its role in helping to create the USA as it is today. Think of how it is portrayed in westerns. The UK does not have an NRA equivalent to encourage gun possession. UK gun owners keep quiet about their guns. Both countries have a right to possess guns, but the US and the 2nd amendment has almost mythical status compared to the 1968 Firearms Act. People can openly and proudly wear guns. That does not happen in the UK. When there are mass shootings in the UK, people react with horror, nobody defends the gun and the law is tightened and types of gun restricted. Mass shootings happen almost daily in the USA, with hardly any change and many still defend the gun, so a mass shooting does not cause much change, of any in the supply and sale of a type of gun.

In the UK it is very, very difficult to get a gun for self defence purposes (a few police and military are allowed them). In the USA it is a major reason for people to want and get a gun.

The US police are able to shoot people and claim self defence very easily indeed. Just read the many debates here to see how suspect many so called self defence shootings are. That just could not happen in the UK, where self defence, especially using lethal force is to a far higher standard.

I believe that there is a connection, whereby the demand for guns and regard they are held in is one of the reasons why self defence claims are much easier to make and sustain in the USA than the UK.
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Old 21st December 2018, 03:10 AM   #651
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I ripped this apart before and I'll do it again.

"Holding the gun in high esteem [by whom?]" is not a truth-apt statement.

"Since the gun is held in such high esteem[by whom?] in the USA it enables the police (and many citizens) to get away with claims of self defence," is a non-sequitor.

Who "holds the gun in high esteem?" Why are you using the passive voice?
Do you deny that the gun is held in high esteem in the USA?

I mean 'the right to bear arms' is enshrined in your country's constitution.
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Old 21st December 2018, 03:11 AM   #652
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I never said it did.
You provided that as evidence to support the claim that it did.
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Old 21st December 2018, 09:11 AM   #653
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
To show that the US is the most popular destination for migrants.
Why would you supply evidence for a claim that no one made in response to someone asking for evidence of a completely different claim?
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Old 21st December 2018, 09:51 AM   #654
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The behavior of our police might improve if the behavior of our criminals improves.
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Old 21st December 2018, 10:21 AM   #655
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It is my opinion, based on what I have seen, all the incidents I have read about and the studies of defensive gun use.

The gun is held with higher esteem in the USA than it is in the UK. My reasons for saying that are from what I have seen and read.

The gun is far more part of the culture due to its role in helping to create the USA as it is today. Think of how it is portrayed in westerns. The UK does not have an NRA equivalent to encourage gun possession. UK gun owners keep quiet about their guns. Both countries have a right to possess guns, but the US and the 2nd amendment has almost mythical status compared to the 1968 Firearms Act. People can openly and proudly wear guns. That does not happen in the UK. When there are mass shootings in the UK, people react with horror, nobody defends the gun and the law is tightened and types of gun restricted. Mass shootings happen almost daily in the USA, with hardly any change and many still defend the gun, so a mass shooting does not cause much change, of any in the supply and sale of a type of gun.

In the UK it is very, very difficult to get a gun for self defence purposes (a few police and military are allowed them). In the USA it is a major reason for people to want and get a gun.

The US police are able to shoot people and claim self defence very easily indeed. Just read the many debates here to see how suspect many so called self defence shootings are. That just could not happen in the UK, where self defence, especially using lethal force is to a far higher standard.

I believe that there is a connection, whereby the demand for guns and regard they are held in is one of the reasons why self defence claims are much easier to make and sustain in the USA than the UK.
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Do you deny that the gun is held in high esteem in the USA?

I mean 'the right to bear arms' is enshrined in your country's constitution.
This is the best argument that you guys could come up with? LOL



Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
The behavior of our police might improve if the behavior of our criminals improves.
The behavior of our police hasn't actually changed much since the inception of formal police forces began in this country, especially considering the proto-police groups and their raison d'etre.
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Old 21st December 2018, 10:26 AM   #656
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
The behavior of our police might improve if the behavior of our criminals improves.
Way to miss the entire point of this thread. We're talking about the behaviour of police to innocent people here, for example, how not to get shot by the police during a routine traffic stop.
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Old 21st December 2018, 09:53 PM   #657
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Do you deny that the gun is held in high esteem in the USA?

I mean 'the right to bear arms' is enshrined in your country's constitution.
I disagree with that dumb statement.

Interpretations of the second amendment vary greatly in the United States, so do opinions on its applications and relevance.
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Old 21st December 2018, 09:56 PM   #658
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Why would you supply evidence for a claim that no one made in response to someone asking for evidence of a completely different claim?
I'm not surprised you are simply interested in a game of semantics and not interested in having a discussion on the data of migrants' preferred destinations--the topic of the derail. I know you and that white guy get a kick out of these games but it bores me.

Last edited by Baylor; 21st December 2018 at 09:59 PM.
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Old 21st December 2018, 09:58 PM   #659
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
This is the best argument that you guys could come up with? LOL
Unbelievable isn't it? And these are the same people who complain about Fox News.
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Old 21st December 2018, 10:07 PM   #660
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
You provided that as evidence to support the claim that it did.
Only in your mind.
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Old 21st December 2018, 10:10 PM   #661
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
...the US and the 2nd amendment has almost mythical status compared to the 1968 Firearms Act.
If I did the laughing dog it would be for this.
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Old 21st December 2018, 10:33 PM   #662
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The US police are able to shoot people and claim self defence very easily indeed. Just read the many debates here to see how suspect many so called self defence shootings are. That just could not happen in the UK, where self defence, especially using lethal force is to a far higher standard.

I believe that there is a connection, whereby the demand for guns and regard they are held in is one of the reasons why self defence claims are much easier to make and sustain in the USA than the UK.
The standard has been lowered in the past two decades and police killings have increased dramatically as you have already mentioned. Police being killed in the line of duty has decreased. None of this has to do with "holding the gun in high esteem."
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Old 22nd December 2018, 02:34 AM   #663
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
If I did the laughing dog it would be for this.
Few people in the UK know about the 1968 Firearms Act, let alone what it states. Most people in the USA know about the 2nd and what it says.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 02:38 AM   #664
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The standard has been lowered in the past two decades and police killings have increased dramatically as you have already mentioned. Police being killed in the line of duty has decreased. None of this has to do with "holding the gun in high esteem."
I am not claiming there is a direct causal link.

US attitudes to guns sets the scene in which it is accepted, no matter what the cost, as many people as possible must have the right to bear as many arms as is possible.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 02:41 AM   #665
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
The behavior of our police might improve if the behavior of our criminals improves.
I doubt it. There are numerous examples in this thread and elsewhere of unarmed non criminals who were regarded by the police as a deadly threat to them, such they shot them.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 08:19 AM   #666
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I'm not surprised you are simply interested in a game of semantics and not interested in having a discussion on the data of migrants' preferred destinations--the topic of the derail. I know you and that white guy get a kick out of these games but it bores me.
This would be much more interesting if you could actually answer a straightforward question directly.

You might, for instance, say "It was clear to me that while the poster said 'most migrants...' what he meant was that more migrants choose the US than choose any other particular country, and while in hindsight it wasn't clear that I was pointing that out, it should be clear now".

It's not clear to me that that was the case (it's certainly not how I read him), but if you were to make that argument I can see that it's possible you could make a reasonable case for it.

Instead, though, you haven't actually made said argument, so I'm left both with my original impression of that other poster, and also not really being clear about what you are saying. The above is the best case I can make by trying to read between the lines of what you've posted, but if you'd be a little less adversarial and a little more upfront it would make understanding your reasoning much easier.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 08:24 AM   #667
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It is my opinion, based on what I have seen, all the incidents I have read about and the studies of defensive gun use.
You argument seems to be a little circular. Guns are more present in American society, and you suggest that this is so because guns are held in high esteem, and the evidence that they are held in high esteem is their presence in American society...

I will just say that guns may be more common in America for reasons other than that they are held in high esteem, and if you want to demonstrate that that is not the case, showing their prevalence isn't going to be enough to rule out other possibilities.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 09:54 AM   #668
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Way to miss the entire point of this thread. We're talking about the behaviour of police to innocent people here, for example, how not to get shot by the police during a routine traffic stop.

Or while sitting in your own apartment watching sports on your computer.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 01:38 PM   #669
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
You argument seems to be a little circular. Guns are more present in American society, and you suggest that this is so because guns are held in high esteem, and the evidence that they are held in high esteem is their presence in American society...

I will just say that guns may be more common in America for reasons other than that they are held in high esteem, and if you want to demonstrate that that is not the case, showing their prevalence isn't going to be enough to rule out other possibilities.
The high esteem for guns in the USA comes from history; from the 2nd amendment in 1791, through the "wild west" and the importance of the gun in the settlement and creation of the USA, to not having had to directly face the horrors of modern warfare on US civilians.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 09:10 PM   #670
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Few people in the UK know about the 1968 Firearms Act, let alone what it states. Most people in the USA know about the 2nd and what it says.
I still have no idea where you got the hare-brained idea that the second amendment has a "mythical status."
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Old 22nd December 2018, 09:12 PM   #671
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I am not claiming there is a direct causal link.

US attitudes to guns sets the scene in which it is accepted, no matter what the cost, as many people as possible must have the right to bear as many arms as is possible.
I thought I'd be able to walk you out of your delusions. I was wrong.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 09:13 PM   #672
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The high esteem for guns in the USA comes from history; from the 2nd amendment in 1791, through the "wild west" and the importance of the gun in the settlement and creation of the USA, to not having had to directly face the horrors of modern warfare on US civilians.
Whatever news media you read, stop immediately.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 09:33 PM   #673
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Whatever news media you read, stop immediately.
You'd do better to start reading news media on your own end than continue making na´ve, unsubstantiated assertions. Or spend some time in gun country / rural America.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 10:58 PM   #674
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I still have no idea where you got the hare-brained idea that the second amendment has a "mythical status."
I remember seeing the 2nd amendment literally framed and hung on someone's wall when I was a kid. I don't know about 'mythical' but it sure is held in high esteem by many.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 11:11 PM   #675
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
spend some time in gun country / rural America.
That's not representative of the US and people living in rural areas have more reasons to own a gun.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 11:15 PM   #676
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I remember seeing the 2nd amendment literally framed and hung on someone's wall when I was a kid. I don't know about 'mythical' but it sure is held in high esteem by many.
I remember seeing stuff when I was a kid. I also saw a news story where police in the UK jumped into a Canal to save a box of korans. They don't do this for human beings. I don't know about 'mythical' but the Koran sure is held in high esteem in the UK.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 11:25 PM   #677
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I remember seeing stuff when I was a kid. I also saw a news story where police in the UK jumped into a Canal to save a box of korans. They don't do this for human beings. I don't know about 'mythical' but the Koran sure is held in high esteem in the UK.
I see. I take it back. No one holds guns in high esteem within the United States, you've convinced me by posting a story about UK police fishing books out of a canal.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 11:29 PM   #678
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Way to miss the point. Anyone can make dumb generalizations based off ignorant stereotypes. One would think people styling themselves as "skeptics" would be above this. One would be wrong.
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Old 23rd December 2018, 12:53 AM   #679
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In this thread: Baylor, the guy who started the "I'm a USAian who demonstrably knows nothing about the UK, but I'm going to educate you on how Sharia Law is being implemented in the UK and how anyone who disagrees with me is wrong" thread, complains about non-USAaians having opinions about the USA.

This is so damn tasty. Just precious. This must be what "winning" looks like.
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Last edited by Lambchops; 23rd December 2018 at 12:54 AM.
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Old 23rd December 2018, 03:05 AM   #680
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I still have no idea where you got the hare-brained idea that the second amendment has a "mythical status."
I have no idea where you get the hare brained idea the 2nd is not regarded as one of the most important and defining pieces of legislation in US history.

By mythical I mean it cannot be touched, altered or tampered with in any way. It has remained exactly as it is now, since it first appeared in 1791. Even Sandy Hook was not enough to call for changes. When similar school shootings took place in Scotland, Finland and Germany, the law and rights regarding firearms possession where changed.
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