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Tags james randi , Pachita , psychic healers , psychic healing , psychics

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Old 22nd January 2021, 10:10 AM   #41
Setsurinvich
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Whatever shows up in a photograph for lighting can be very different from how it appears in the actual scene. Your eyes adjust a lot but most of the time you don't notice it.
well this "psychic" supposedly works in the dark w/only dim candle light, would a camera from the 1970s be able to produce such a photo?
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Old 22nd January 2021, 11:05 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
isnt it her left hand doing "funny" things?
Sure. That is the distraction component. She wants you to concentrate on the left hand while the right is doing the actual illusion. that is distraction. Another common technique of stage magicians. I have no idea why you think there is anything to see beyond common charlatanism. My personal preference is for "close-up" magic, where one can perform apparent miracles before an observers eyes. Others, like David Copperfield et al prefer the foolishly large illusions. That is their preference. It is a matter of style, not reality.

My personal preference is to perform in a small setting where the guest/victim appears to do it themselves without my intervention at all. Even though they are unaware of my intervention in what transpires. They know that I must be interfering at some level for entertainment purposes.

Nevertheless, both I and my father have been accused of being in league with SATAN even though there is an entirely prosaic explanation for what occurred.

In the case you are discussing, the illusion is trivially explained. There is nothing even vaguely supernatural involved. The nature of the illusion has been explained to you multiple times, yet here you are.

So why are you clinging to a supernatural explanation?
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Old 22nd January 2021, 11:10 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
S

So why are you clinging to a supernatural explanation?

I am not, its just that this story for whatever reason had bothered me for a long time and I just want to solve it once and for all, as well with info on the internet for all to see with a detailed explanation of the charlatanism being done. Since you have experience with stage magic, can I ask what exactly was the hand pose that gave it away?

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Old 22nd January 2021, 11:12 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
well this "psychic" supposedly works in the dark w/only dim candle light, would a camera from the 1970s be able to produce such a photo?
Yes. I am also a keen amateur photographer, so I know the answer is yes.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 11:19 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
I am not, its just that this story for whatever reason had bothered me for a long time and I just want to solve it once and for all, as well with info on the internet for all to see with a detailed explanation of the charlatanism being done. Since you have experience with stage magic, can I ask what exactly was the hand pose that gave it away?
No. You cannot. There is a rule here that magicians secrets may not be revealed.

What are those secrets? I am forbidden to reveal too much both here and in the magicians circle. So I will go as far as I can.

Close your right hand into a fist. Observe it.

Now close your fist about the neck of a coke bottle and observe it's new position.

Do you see a difference or not?
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Old 22nd January 2021, 11:23 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
I am not, its just that this story for whatever reason had bothered me for a long time and I just want to solve it once and for all, as well with info on the internet for all to see with a detailed explanation of the charlatanism being done. Since you have experience with stage magic, can I ask what exactly was the hand pose that gave it away?
I don't really believe you. You have been handed every explanation and reject all of them, why?
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Old 22nd January 2021, 11:42 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
I am not, its just that this story for whatever reason had bothered me for a long time and I just want to solve it once and for all, as well with info on the internet for all to see with a detailed explanation of the charlatanism being done. Since you have experience with stage magic, can I ask what exactly was the hand pose that gave it away?
Oh and you could compare Randi's hands with your guru's hands. Same positions. It is blatant concealment. The difference is that Randi tells you outright that he is making it up. Your guru claims to be channelling vague spirits.

Now it might be that you will revert to the equivocation. Randi has no evedices for his position. What you seek to axoid is that neither do you.

So what should one believe?

That is simple. I will believe in that which has sufficient evidence. Is that fair?

God, whichever what version one might chose, has exactly no evidence at all. None.

Why would any rational person believe in some donkey that does not exist?
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Old 22nd January 2021, 03:14 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
No. You cannot. There is a rule here that magicians secrets may not be revealed.

What are those secrets? I am forbidden to reveal too much both here and in the magicians circle. So I will go as far as I can.

Close your right hand into a fist. Observe it.

Now close your fist about the neck of a coke bottle and observe it's new position.

Do you see a difference or not?
Surely we can open the blinds just a little bit and say the words "fake thumb tip"?
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Old 22nd January 2021, 05:54 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
No. You cannot. There is a rule here that magicians secrets may not be revealed.

What are those secrets? I am forbidden to reveal too much both here and in the magicians circle. So I will go as far as I can.

Close your right hand into a fist. Observe it.

Now close your fist about the neck of a coke bottle and observe it's new position.

Do you see a difference or not?
Correct me but I had assumed the magician's code didn't apply to fraudsters. I know many magicians over the years have made the exception in order to expose them and prevent more people from being suckered in.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 07:11 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
but what about my observations on the blood flow ....
Have you actually been in the same room and seen a psychic healer in action or have you only seen still photos of a performance?

If you have only seen photos, then there is no point asking about magicians do the various hand position tricks, as photos do not show all the various distractions a magician uses to hide their hand movements.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 09:10 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
I don't really believe you. You have been handed every explanation and reject all of them, why?
I dont want to reject any explanation,I want to be through so it would never bother me again. its just that this story had bothered me in the past because it triggered a bizarre chain reaction that ended with the Satanic Ritual abuse conspiracy. So I want to confirm with some experts to make certain, as well I probably have an obession with being through and figuring out "what really happened.

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Old 22nd January 2021, 09:11 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Have you actually been in the same room and seen a psychic healer in action or have you only seen still photos of a performance?

If you have only seen photos, then there is no point asking about magicians do the various hand position tricks, as photos do not show all the various distractions a magician uses to hide their hand movements.
well the pictures are all the info we have of this "healer" it almost infuriated me in the past that no critical research was done, so i suppose now its the time to do it rather than never.

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Old 22nd January 2021, 11:12 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
well the pictures are all the info we have of this "healer" it almost infuriated me in the past that no critical research was done, so i suppose now its the time to do it rather than never.
OK.

Firstly, there has been critical research done. It was done by a professional magician and skeptic, Mr James Randi. He both emulates the trick and debunks con artists who pretends it is real to exploit the uneducated.


Secondly, it is almost impossible to explain how stage magic tricks are performed using still photos. Magicians use both hands, body language and language itself to distract, misdirect and so on to perform tricks. ( For example : Guitar tab pictures show finger positions on strings and frets, but not how you change hand positions from one chord to another.)

James Randi on Tonight Show / Psychic Surgery / YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjF1sUZEy2U

Nolen, William. (1974). Healing: A Doctor in Search of a Miracle. New York: Random House. ISBN 0-394-49095-9

Randi, James. (1995). Psychic surgery in An Encyclopedia of Claims, Frauds, and Hoaxes of the Occult and Supernatural. St. Martin's Press. ISBN 0-312-15119-5
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Old 22nd January 2021, 11:36 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post

Firstly, there has been critical research done.
i am referring specifically to "pachita" which had frustrated me in the past because of the absurd chain reaction she had set off and the outlandish stories told about her which were NOT taken critically until recently, which was too late to do any first hand research.

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Old 23rd January 2021, 12:05 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
i am referring specifically to "pachita"
Pachita died in 1979. You would need a time machine to do the debunking.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pachita
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Old 23rd January 2021, 12:12 AM   #56
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Pachita used a "rusty hunting knife" instead of just using bare hands. This is a very old, hollow handle, prop trick from movies and stage.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg hollow handle fake blood.jpg (43.1 KB, 223 views)
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Old 23rd January 2021, 12:12 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Pachita died in 1979. You would need a time machine to do the debunking.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pachita
sigh* i am aware, but even if there was a video of her doing her "healing" it still would have just as much "validity" for debunking as those pictures I found no?
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Old 23rd January 2021, 01:28 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
sigh* i am aware, but even if there was a video of her doing her "healing" it still would have just as much "validity" for debunking as those pictures I found no?
No. You cannot put a person a trial after they die. They cannot answer questions, as they are dead. A video can be edited.

Therefore you must set out all the alternative hypotheses as to what may be going on and assign probability, like a coroner.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Hypothesis 1) Pachita was possessed by the spirit of the Aztec emperor Cuauhtémoc and could perform magical surgery although not speaking any Aztec language and performing surgery that Cuauhtémoc never performed using a modern steel knife.

alternatively

Hypothesis 2) Pachita was a con artist using standard stage magic for financial gain.

Which hypothesis do you support?

Ваш родной язык русский?
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Old 23rd January 2021, 01:41 AM   #59
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Mr James Randi was not lazy

Русское общество скептиков ( Russian skeptic Society)
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File Type: jpg Randi and Alefrov.jpg (22.0 KB, 220 views)
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Old 23rd January 2021, 05:24 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
I am not, its just that this story for whatever reason had bothered me for a long time and I just want to solve it once and for all, as well with info on the internet for all to see with a detailed explanation of the charlatanism being done. Since you have experience with stage magic, can I ask what exactly was the hand pose that gave it away?

The basic starting point for all this fakery, BS, "psychic" anything and most alt med is that there is no known biological mechanism by which this can happen (OK, placebo in some of the alt med), aside from deception and fraud.

If or when someone comes up with some plausible biological, chemical, physical mechanisms we can look again (while someone clears up on all the Nobel prizes, the contracts to re-write all the textbooks and the rest).

Until such time, what is there actually to discuss? Unless you are interested in the mechanics of the fakery, of course.

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Old 23rd January 2021, 09:55 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
No. You cannot put a person a trial after they die. They cannot answer questions, as they are dead. A video can be edited.

Therefore you must set out all the alternative hypotheses as to what may be going on and assign probability, like a coroner.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Hypothesis 1) Pachita was possessed by the spirit of the Aztec emperor Cuauhtémoc and could perform magical surgery although not speaking any Aztec language and performing surgery that Cuauhtémoc never performed using a modern steel knife.

alternatively

Hypothesis 2) Pachita was a con artist using standard stage magic for financial gain.

Which hypothesis do you support?

Ваш родной язык русский?
The first is basically too stupid to support, like I said I almost have an obession with finding out what "really" happened which is perhaps why sometimes i just keep trying to reach.

I also get upset at the fact that people like this keep getting promoted with no critical analysis for example somone a few years back had made a movie about this "healer" and her family http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jqmxxe9UB08 which from 30:00 to34:00 there were even more of those "surgery" pics (who is the source of these photos anyways???)

My curiosity and my desire to "keep diggin"gets the best of me almost every time
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Old 23rd January 2021, 10:41 AM   #62
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But what exactly is there to dig? It seems to be, save from someone inviting you to watch how this is done and guiding you laboriously through every small minutia you won't be satisfied.

All psychic surgery is done essentially the same; blood(Fake/Animal) and guts(Animal parts and bits of the bag it's in) is placed in a bag. The bag is palmed while the "patient" either looks away, has something over their eyes or is told to close their eyes and pray.

The palmed bag is placed on the area, punctured causing a fake bloodstream. The fingers are bent and pushed into the skin to create the illusion of penetration for onlookers. The fraudster then using his hand as cover and uses his free hand to pull both the animal parts and parts of the bag up pretending he is removing the affliction.

Cotton is used to absorb liquid and is purely for show. The area is wiped with a towel which serves as an easy way to collect any leftover parts of the bag.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 07:16 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
But what exactly is there to dig? It seems to be, save from someone inviting you to watch how this is done and guiding you laboriously through every small minutia you won't be satisfied.

All psychic surgery is done essentially the same; blood(Fake/Animal) and guts(Animal parts and bits of the bag it's in) is placed in a bag. The bag is palmed while the "patient" either looks away, has something over their eyes or is told to close their eyes and pray.

The palmed bag is placed on the area, punctured causing a fake bloodstream. The fingers are bent and pushed into the skin to create the illusion of penetration for onlookers. The fraudster then using his hand as cover and uses his free hand to pull both the animal parts and parts of the bag up pretending he is removing the affliction.

Cotton is used to absorb liquid and is purely for show. The area is wiped with a towel which serves as an easy way to collect any leftover parts of the bag.
Like i said I am way too curious, and obessed with being thorough especially with the absurd chain reaction this "healer" had caused that ended in the Satanic Panic
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:58 PM   #64
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sigh* of course someone has to keep posting "surgeries" of this "psychic" online... at least now i am not really bothered by it anymore

https://es.slideshare.net/shiao54/ma014-pachitama014
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Old 30th January 2021, 11:02 AM   #65
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I clicked the link.

So the knife doesn't have to be fake, per se, but I can tell you it has no edges.

In all likelihood, he applies some pressure and the victim feels the dull blade tip, thus selling the illusion. To onlookers, it's the previously mentioned curled fingers.

I'm not bothered with how they do it but the fact they are doing it and scamming people out of money.
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Old 30th January 2021, 07:28 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
I clicked the link.

So the knife doesn't have to be fake, per se, but I can tell you it has no edges.

In all likelihood, he applies some pressure and the victim feels the dull blade tip, thus selling the illusion. To onlookers, it's the previously mentioned curled fingers.

I'm not bothered with how they do it but the fact they are doing it and scamming people out of money.
There is one thing that annoyed me a bit though, on page 9 of that link, there is a photo, can you guys see if the "surgeon" is hiding her ring finger behind a bloody cotton rag? because it looks like its in a very odd position from what I can see

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Old 19th February 2021, 10:13 PM   #67
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Does anyone here understand Spanish well? Because this person here claimed to be descended from a Mexican "psychic" mentioned here . From what I can tell she seems to be mad at a video that somone did critical of the psychic and was really upset by it


https://www.facebook.com/SanadoraPac...77139062898281
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:34 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
Does anyone here understand Spanish well? Because this person here claimed to be descended from a Mexican "psychic" mentioned here . From what I can tell she seems to be mad at a video that somone did critical of the psychic and was really upset by it


https://www.facebook.com/SanadoraPac...77139062898281
Why is this even relevant to your larger question? Right now what you are doing is the equivalent of sticking your fingers into your years and shouting "La...la...la..la..la.." when someone provides answers to your questions and then claiming that your questions weren't resolved to your satisfaction. And to further your own illusion (for no one else but you) of active engagement in the discussion, you post irrelevant crap like the link above that adds nothing of value to the discussion. This is a typical strategy to inundate the thread with idiocy to hide the fact that your own "counter-arguments" have no basis in fact.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 03:42 PM   #69
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Every time one of these pso-called psychics is investigated they turn out to be fraudulent, or at least unable to demonstrate their abilities under controlled conditions. This has happened enough times that we can safely generalise and say that without sufficient evidence no psychic has genuine abilities.

And then someone comes along and says "but what about this person? All those others may be bogus, but could this one be the real thing?"

And the completely appropriate answer to that question is that unless this person is willing and able to demonstrate their abilities under controlled conditions, it is pretty safe to assume that they are bogus too.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 02:23 AM   #70
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Wot Arth said. With a sprinkle of there being no known mechanism by which any of these things work, so someone needs to demonstrate a plausible mechanism before we start looking at what these frauds claim they do with that mechanism which doesn't appear to exist.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 10:42 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
Why is this even relevant to your larger question? Right now what you are doing is the equivalent of sticking your fingers into your years and shouting "La...la...la..la..la.." when someone provides answers to your questions and then claiming that your questions weren't resolved to your satisfaction. And to further your own illusion (for no one else but you) of active engagement in the discussion, you post irrelevant crap like the link above that adds nothing of value to the discussion. This is a typical strategy to inundate the thread with idiocy to hide the fact that your own "counter-arguments" have no basis in fact.
it was just something amusing i found and wanted to share.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 11:20 AM   #72
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Because there's evidence that at least some of the claimants are tricksters, and no evidence that any claimant is a genuine psychic, the null hypothesis here is clear. Futher, as this is also a well-plowed field of entertainment, we can also posit that it's not especially difficult to find out how to do the tricks, and that evading detection is part of the skill involved. A claimant has to do more than just claim, or have demonstrated his skill in a venue he controls.

The gatekeeper criteria for consideration therefore has to be what controlled, testable evidence already exists of some new claimant's ability. It can't be just one more guy making the rounds, who simply might be more skilled at deception that the previous contestants. It can't be a new candidate simply because the observer couldn't figure out how the trick might have been done. At this point any claim to real psychic powers has to provide more up front.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 06:00 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Wot Arth said. With a sprinkle of there being no known mechanism by which any of these things work, so someone needs to demonstrate a plausible mechanism before we start looking at what these frauds claim they do with that mechanism which doesn't appear to exist.
I'd settle for a successful demonstration first. Then we can start looking at how it works.

No-one should waste time trying to come up with a mechanism before the effect has been successfully demonstrated.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 11:52 PM   #74
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i realize i probably overthink these questions too much, its just unfortunate that resources are so limited and we could not properly investigate things like this while these psychics were at the height of their popularity. Apparently multiple people claim to inherit the "gift" of the original psychic and all claim that they can possess the power of that aztec spirit!
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Old 24th February 2021, 06:50 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
I am not, its just that this story for whatever reason had bothered me for a long time and I just want to solve it once and for all, as well with info on the internet for all to see with a detailed explanation of the charlatanism being done. Since you have experience with stage magic, can I ask what exactly was the hand pose that gave it away?
Once you do answer it "once and for all" you will find that you will be plagued by insincere people JAQing off for their own amusement. You can even find such people on this site.

Good luck
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Old 24th February 2021, 11:53 AM   #76
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I suppose all those people who claim to have the same spirit power as the originial "psychic" are JAQing off .. sigh
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Old 24th February 2021, 12:38 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
I suppose all those people who claim to have the same spirit power as the originial "psychic" are JAQing off .. sigh
Not all. Some are just plain crazy deluded.
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