IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags democrats , election 2008 , republicans

Closed Thread
Old 1st November 2008, 10:54 AM   #1
R.Mackey
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 7,854
Wink The largest, most dangerous voting block...

The biggest, most influential, and most unpredictable of all voter blocks remains poorly understood by either party, and almost unreported in the press.

No, I'm not talking about the AARP or the NRA. It's not any women's group or gay rights movement. Not African-Americans, Cubans, not even the all-powerful and all-knowing Jews. It's bigger than Union Labor, more diverse than the American Independent party, and found in every state, age group, and economic bracket.

It is rarely tackled directly, but every politician and every reporter knows about it. In an almost sinister fashion, they leave vague hints and references to this unfathomable power. Nixon brazenly invoked it as "The Silent Majority." The modern euphemism of choice, clearly influenced by political correctness, seems to be the "Low Information Voter." Some have suggested that "Joe the Plumber" and even "Hockey Mom" are coded references to this group.

But you all know who I'm talking about. I'm talking about the Moron Block.

There is no more potentially destructive force, and none more long-lasting, than the influence of morons. Plato, in The Republic, argued passionately that governance should be left to philosophers, and even though he agonized over the potential for corruption, found this form of government superior to a true democracy -- a government beholden to morons. Yet morons are a natural force, as old as humankind. As any statistician will verify, almost 50% of the people in any generation will be of below average intelligence.

There are clear signs of the moron effect in the present election. Some columnists have stated unequivocally that the outcome of this election is already not in doubt, save only the last-minute and concentrated caprice of morons. Other reporters, so badgered by morons, have diverged into a meta-argument of the stupid things morons clamor to hear more of:
Originally Posted by Ben Smith @ Politico.com
Now, as the campaign enters its last week, partisans have deluged reporters with e-mails and vented on blogs about why the media is suppressing stories about one candidate or the other. The unwritten Obama stories supposedly concern his Americanness: They raise doubts about his birth, his citizenship and his patriotism. The un-penned anti-McCain stories go to the quality he's made central to his career: honor. They suggest he's used foul language to his wife and that his military record isn't what it seems.

So why hasn't Politico and the rest of the press reported on these stories? Well, some of them we're working on. But in many other cases, the stories were debunked, or there simply was no evidence for the claims.

These should be distinguished from partisan reporting that partisans wish had more political bite...
Source

But since this force is so strong, and so ingrained into human nature, surely both campaigns are aware of and actively trying to take advantage of it.

Thus, the question: How? Which campaign has pandered more to the moron movement?

In the article above, Ben Smith notes that the moron demands seem to back the Republican candidate by about 20 to 1. However, there is no reason to suspect this is not artifactual rather than political -- those begging for a scandal may be simply supporting the underdog, and had McCain been leading in the polls, it is reasonable to assume this behavior would be reversed.

There is a colorable case for both Republicans and Democrats intentionally energizing the moron base, though the strategies are different. The Democrats traditionally court morons through registration drives, both legitimate and sketchy, focusing on people who for whatever reason cannot figure out how to register or otherwise couldn't be bothered. Republicans, in contrast, take a more direct approach, using charged rhetoric such as "elitism" and offers the unwashed an opportunity to earn a gold sticker of acceptance in his "real America."

The Democrats promise a renormalization of wealth -- in moron terms, taking money from the smart rich people and giving it to us. The Republicans retaliate with boogeyman stories about how this is "socialist." Both memes appear to have traction. Both positions can be argued intelligently, but rarely are.

But who is the worse offender? Whose pleas for the moron vote are more effective? And who do we blame if the election winds up being decided by morons? I welcome your thoughts, regardless of your own party affiliation, voting tendencies, and personal bias.

Don't be a moron. Educate yourself. Encourage each and every candidate to elevate the discussion, give straight answers, and deal with real issues. When both parties run a smart campaign, everybody wins. Even morons.

Last edited by R.Mackey; 1st November 2008 at 11:06 AM. Reason: Missing a of words
R.Mackey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 1st November 2008, 11:18 AM   #2
Ausmerican
Illuminator
 
Ausmerican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,490
Aasif Mandvi touched on this voting block quite well on a recent Daily Show.

http://blog.indecision2008.com/2008/...lly-exclusive/
__________________
Everyone must believe in something. I believe I'll go canoeing. Henry David Thoreau
Ausmerican is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 1st November 2008, 01:47 PM   #3
gdnp
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,998
I would think that appeals to fear and appeals to emotion would be more effective with the moron block than appeals to logic. Thus Obama may do better running for reelection than he does this year. The "Obama will take away my guns" appeal should be less effective if he's been in power for 4 years and hasn't.
gdnp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 1st November 2008, 01:58 PM   #4
T.A.M.
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
I am hopeful that the "Moron Block" will be counter balanced by (A) the African American Block, and (B) the Youth Block.

You are right, though Mackey, the "Moron Block" really is the unknown variable...only Tuesday will tell.

TAM
T.A.M. is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 1st November 2008, 03:45 PM   #5
leftysergeant
Penultimate Amazing
 
leftysergeant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,863
The way McCain is campaigning, the Moron Block may be his only hope of even keeping his Senate seat when this is all over.

I figured he had a pretty good lock on them to start with.
leftysergeant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 1st November 2008, 05:39 PM   #6
boloboffin
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,986
The Byzantine nature of the American government was conceived precisely to frustrate the Moron Block, no matter who runs what branch of government. Even if the Democrats or Republicans controlled all branches of government, they themselves would branch off into factions - especially the Democrats. You can trust us with all three branches of government. We'll never do anything with it.
boloboffin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 1st November 2008, 05:45 PM   #7
Oliver
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oliver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,396
Is there a huge moron block amongst Democrats as well?
Oliver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 1st November 2008, 06:09 PM   #8
balrog666
Eigenmode: Cynic
 
balrog666's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 2,974
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Is there a huge moron block amongst Democrats as well?
The Moron Block knows no party.

__________________
A person who won't think has no advantage over one who can't think. - (paraphrased) Mark Twain

Political language… is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind. – George Orwell
balrog666 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 1st November 2008, 06:31 PM   #9
JihadJane
not a camel
 
JihadJane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 85,730
Hands up morons who voted twice for baby Bush.
__________________
empty void in space epic wasteland so dark you have no direction and die in sensory deprivation madness all your fault anyway jerk ~ Hlafordlaes
JihadJane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 1st November 2008, 07:17 PM   #10
leftysergeant
Penultimate Amazing
 
leftysergeant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,863
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Is there a huge moron block amongst Democrats as well?
Not as big as in the GOP. How many Democrats still believe that piddle-down ecconmics works?
leftysergeant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 1st November 2008, 09:23 PM   #11
yodaluver28
Muse
 
yodaluver28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 569
I'd say McCain/Palin campaign has definitely been looking to make an impression with this group and probably has a far greater chance of succeeding too. That campaign has been simplistic, nasty, and negative and negativity works on idiots. I don't know why but it just seems to.

It doesn't help that Obama is an actual intellectual and that alot of his positions are sophisticated enough to demand a 30 second attention span or even more.

Not so with McCain/Palin. Go back and watch Palin in her debate. Notice how short and pointed her answers were. Never mind that they were either wrong or didn't answer the question she was actually asked, she made her point. She wanted to get certain notions like Obama raising taxes, being weak on defense, etc. out to the voters who are blissfully ignorant and are either too lazy or too apathetic to even try to find out if what she said was true or not. And then you have to factor in that alot of morons seems to be inclined to racism even if they don't realize or admit it. The moron factor is definitely what's keeping me nervous about this whole thing. I can't wait for it to be over. I just hope it's a big enough landslide so we don't have to worry about voting irregularities/disenfranchisement, moron racists, or court battles.
__________________
Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. We must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind-Jedi Master Yoda.
yodaluver28 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2008, 12:11 AM   #12
ProbeX
Graduate Poster
 
ProbeX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,446
Luckily morons get hungry too. And traditionally it's the Dem candidate who is most trusted during times of economic/financial stress.

Also, while I'm not going to overestimate low info voters' ability to get taken in by cheap messages, I do believe most of them have a certain limit regarding how much phony crap they are willing to eat up.

My bet is that there's a certain point of diminishing returns that can be reached whereby too much negative, contradictory messaging leads to a growing feeling that these folks' (oft limited) intelligence is being insulted, and some of these low-infoers may begin to distain/distrust the messenger.

It is possible that McCain has reached that threshold with quite a few of these folks by now. Not sure, but Palin's increasing negative rating in polls indicates something she is doing seems to be scaring people off.
__________________
I promise to have faith. Just show me the evidence first.
ProbeX is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2008, 03:59 AM   #13
JihadJane
not a camel
 
JihadJane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 85,730
Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
I welcome your thoughts, regardless of your own party affiliation, voting tendencies, and personal bias.

Don't be a moron. Educate yourself. Encourage each and every candidate to elevate the discussion, give straight answers, and deal with real issues. When both parties run a smart campaign, everybody wins. Even morons.
Don't be a moron, write bland, idiotic clichés.
__________________
empty void in space epic wasteland so dark you have no direction and die in sensory deprivation madness all your fault anyway jerk ~ Hlafordlaes
JihadJane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2008, 01:49 PM   #14
Elizabeth I
Philosopher
 
Elizabeth I's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Defending the Alamo
Posts: 9,931
Originally Posted by yodaluver28 View Post
I'd say McCain/Palin campaign has definitely been looking to make an impression with this group and probably has a far greater chance of succeeding too. That campaign has been simplistic, nasty, and negative and negativity works on idiots. I don't know why but it just seems to.
Because the moron bloc is, to a man or woman, is motivated by fear, and for them the most fearsome thing in the world is "somebody different than me." That's why the ignorant far right becomes more and more determined and entrenched in its ignorance - the world becomes more and more "other" all the time. For some people, the only defense is to crawl into a shell and pull it in after themselves. The Bimbette's catch phrases tell those people that she understands and shares their fears, and her political position reassures them that she has the power to protect them.
Elizabeth I is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2008, 01:55 PM   #15
RandFan
Mormon Atheist
 
RandFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,135


Fortunatly most people report that they are smarter than average.

"We have seen the enemy and he is us." --Pogo
__________________
Ego, ain't it a bitch?
RandFan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2008, 02:00 PM   #16
Wangler
Master Poster
 
Wangler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,228
Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
Not as big as in the GOP.
Hard to tell which party holds the majority, if you look at these JREF political posts....................

Wangler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2008, 02:02 PM   #17
Elizabeth I
Philosopher
 
Elizabeth I's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Defending the Alamo
Posts: 9,931
Originally Posted by Wangler View Post
Hard to tell which party holds the majority, if you look at these JREF political posts....................

Hey, I'm voting for a Democratic presidential candidate for the first time in a long career of voting. And the current management of the Republican party are the people who drove me off.

ETA: voting for some Democratic House and Senate candidates too.
Elizabeth I is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2008, 02:28 PM   #18
boloboffin
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,986
Originally Posted by RandFan View Post


Fortunatly most people report that they are smarter than average.

"We have seen the enemy and he is us." --Pogo
I do think I'm smarter than average. That's not saying much for the human race or me, though. In fact, it's quite depressing if I think about it much.
boloboffin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2008, 02:33 PM   #19
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 96,383
I know it's very unskeptical of me to draw a conclusion based on life experience but I consider my life experience to be rather extensive and broad so I am confident in my observations. The morons in both camps seem to come in different flavors. On the right you have all the Redneck, NeoCon, Bible believing fanatics who react to the political propaganda theme of "God Bless America" and "Dems are tax and spenders". On the left you have quite a few fanatics who react to the political propaganda believing the Democrats really want to support the policies of Dennis Kucinich regardless of the fact the Democrats never have once they get into office.

(I still favor the Democrats mind you, but I'm not so foolish as to believe they are going to fully support all the policies they claim to be for. Democratic values include compromise, something the Republicans in the last 3 decades have had no trouble rejecting.)

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 2nd November 2008 at 02:34 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2008, 02:45 PM   #20
gtc
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,110
Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Fortunatly most people report that they are smarter than average.
That could be true if the distribution is not symetrical but I take your point.
gtc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2008, 05:19 PM   #21
chipmunk stew
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,448
Originally Posted by gtc View Post
That could be true if the distribution is not symetrical but I take your point.
In this case, I think people are commonly referring to the (theoretical) median, not the mean.

edit: I think it's fair to assume that most people posting on this forum are at or above the 50th percentile...

Last edited by chipmunk stew; 2nd November 2008 at 05:22 PM.
chipmunk stew is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2008, 05:29 PM   #22
RandFan
Mormon Atheist
 
RandFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,135
Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
In this case, I think people are commonly referring to the (theoretical) median, not the mean.

edit: I think it's fair to assume that most people posting on this forum are at or above the 50th percentile...
I watched an interview with Alan Alda once. He was asked how he could play a Republican. He pointed out that no one asks him how he can play murderer but there is something about Republicans that an actor would cross some line if he or she played one. In any event he said something I thought important. He always asks the questioner, "how are you so sure you are right"? "Why is it you are so confident in your position that you would think somone wrong to play a Republican?" Given those old dead Greek philosophers how is it that we are so sure that we are right?

For most it doesn't matter. Just being right is all that matters.
__________________
Ego, ain't it a bitch?

Last edited by RandFan; 2nd November 2008 at 05:30 PM.
RandFan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2008, 09:32 PM   #23
MattusMaximus
Intellectual Gladiator
 
MattusMaximus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,948
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Is there a huge moron block amongst Democrats as well?
As someone who has been active in Democratic circles for a few years... yes.

No political party is immune from teh Morons. The Dems would be fools to believe otherwise, imo.
__________________
Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher
"We ****** up the air, the water, we ****** up each other. Why don't we just finish the job by flushing our brains down the toilet?" -- John Trent, In the Mouth of Madness
MattusMaximus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd November 2008, 06:32 AM   #24
chipmunk stew
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,448
Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
I watched an interview with Alan Alda once. He was asked how he could play a Republican. He pointed out that no one asks him how he can play murderer but there is something about Republicans that an actor would cross some line if he or she played one. In any event he said something I thought important. He always asks the questioner, "how are you so sure you are right"? "Why is it you are so confident in your position that you would think somone wrong to play a Republican?" Given those old dead Greek philosophers how is it that we are so sure that we are right?

For most it doesn't matter. Just being right is all that matters.
Was this meant as a direct reply to my post? As a stand-alone anecdote, it offers a good skeptical moral. As a reply to my post, I don't get it.
chipmunk stew is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd November 2008, 06:55 AM   #25
BenBurch
Gatekeeper of The Left
 
BenBurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one.
Posts: 37,538
Offhand, I'd say that 80% of McCain's "base" (and they ARE base) is that group.
__________________
For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system?
BenBurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd November 2008, 10:11 AM   #26
RandFan
Mormon Atheist
 
RandFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,135
Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
Was this meant as a direct reply to my post? As a stand-alone anecdote, it offers a good skeptical moral. As a reply to my post, I don't get it.
The first mistake a critical thinker can make is to fail to be skeptical of one's self. The second is to fail to be skeptical of one's in-group.

I don't have your confidence.
__________________
Ego, ain't it a bitch?
RandFan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd November 2008, 10:15 AM   #27
RandFan
Mormon Atheist
 
RandFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,135
Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
Offhand, I'd say that 80% of McCain's "base" (and they ARE base) is that group.
Offhand I would say that 95% of all statistics are wrong 99% of the time. Your chances of being right about McCain's base aren't very good.

“There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics" --Benjamin Disraeli
__________________
Ego, ain't it a bitch?
RandFan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd November 2008, 01:29 PM   #28
chipmunk stew
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,448
Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
The first mistake a critical thinker can make is to fail to be skeptical of one's self. The second is to fail to be skeptical of one's in-group.

I don't have your confidence.
My confidence in what? That most people who post here are at or above the 50th percentile on the smartness scale? Really? I think that's way too conservative, personally.
chipmunk stew is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd November 2008, 07:31 PM   #29
RandFan
Mormon Atheist
 
RandFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,135
Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
My confidence in what? That most people who post here are at or above the 50th percentile on the smartness scale? Really? I think that's way too conservative, personally.
How did you control for confirmation bias?

Peronally I'm skeptical and for good reason. My observations would put us even but I'm willing to question my observations (see the two mistakes above).

You and I can disagree.
__________________
Ego, ain't it a bitch?
RandFan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd November 2008, 07:54 PM   #30
Slayhamlet
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,423
Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
How did you control for confirmation bias?

Peronally I'm skeptical and for good reason. My observations would put us even but I'm willing to question my observations (see the two mistakes above).

You and I can disagree.
Confirmation bias? You're being silly (and taking this far too seriously).

CS's assumption is a fair one considering that a relatively high level of literacy is required to even take part in an online discussion forum like this one. Most people here write coherently, and reading comprehension is generally sound. Compare it to the literacy level of your average Youtube or Myspace comment, for example. I think you're vastly overestimating the mean intelligence of the population.
Slayhamlet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd November 2008, 08:20 PM   #31
RandFan
Mormon Atheist
 
RandFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,135
Originally Posted by Slayhamlet View Post
Confirmation bias? You're being silly (and taking this far too seriously).
No.

Quote:
CS's assumption is a fair one considering that a relatively high level of literacy is required to even take part in an online discussion forum like this one. Most people here write coherently, and reading comprehension is generally sound. Compare it to the literacy level of your average Youtube or Myspace comment, for example. I think you're vastly overestimating the mean intelligence of the population.
I "think" I've found your problem.

Literacy is only one aspect of intelligence. Many educators don't think much of IQ tests, tests that reflect a number of different aspects of inteligence and you want to simply rely on your anecdotal observations of grammatical errors on YouTube and Myspace. How many white collar professionals hang out at YouTube and Myspace? How many teenagers?

No, I'm not being silly neither am I taking anything far too seriously. This is a skeptics forum. I didn't see the "no skepticism allowed in the politics forum" sign.
__________________
Ego, ain't it a bitch?

Last edited by RandFan; 3rd November 2008 at 08:22 PM.
RandFan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd November 2008, 08:54 PM   #32
R.Mackey
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 7,854
For what it's worth, I would expect the readers here of any political leaning to be largely free of the Moron Block, since at least in theory we were attracted here by intelligent conversation, and contribute our own thoughts in an environment where they are sure to be challenged. However, I would also suggest that to truly distinguish, we would need some kind of test.

Getting back to the OP, this morning's Los Angeles Times ran an interesting editorial on the subject:

Originally Posted by Larry M. Bartels @ LAT
The important question is not whether voters are ignorant but whether they make sensible choices despite being hazy about the details. (OK, really hazy.) If they do, that's not stupid -- it's efficient.

Political scientists have been studying this subject for years, and they've found plenty of grounds for pessimism about voters' rationality.
Yet despite this bleak lede, concludes there is wisdom in herds, even in herds of stupid people:

Originally Posted by ibid
In "Uninformed Votes," a 1996 study examining presidential elections from 1972 to 1992, I took another approach, assessing how closely voters' actual choices matched those they would have made had they been "fully informed." I found that the actual choices fell about halfway between what they would have been if voters had been fully informed and what they would have been if made on the basis of a coin flip.
However, in the "glass is half empty" category, he also concludes the Moron Effect is diluted in part because the rest of us, seemingly educated and aware, also make irrational decisions, as evinced by the power of stupid television commercials.

Food for thought.
R.Mackey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd November 2008, 09:40 PM   #33
Ysidro
I'm watching you
 
Ysidro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,320
Originally Posted by RandFan View Post

No, I'm not being silly neither am I taking anything far too seriously. This is a skeptics forum. I didn't see the "no skepticism allowed in the politics forum" sign.
No, trust me. You're being too serious.

And if you didn't see the "no skepticism allowed in the politics forum" sign, you didn't look up. Heck, you practically have to sign a "no skepticism" waiver to post here.
__________________
This is a sig file. Does anyone even read this stuff?
Ysidro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd November 2008, 09:46 PM   #34
RandFan
Mormon Atheist
 
RandFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,135
Originally Posted by Ysidro View Post
No, trust me. You're being too serious.

And if you didn't see the "no skepticism allowed in the politics forum" sign, you didn't look up. Heck, you practically have to sign a "no skepticism" waiver to post here.
Fair enough. I'll let it go.
__________________
Ego, ain't it a bitch?
RandFan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th November 2008, 01:00 AM   #35
SezMe
post-pre-born
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 25,183
I wonder about the overlap between the Moron Block and the non-voting block. We know that voter turnout in America is piss-poor. I would advance the thesis (without any evidential backup, to get that monkey off my back ) that the moron block might also substanitally overlap with the non-voting block. If that is the case, while some highly visible morons achieve media visibility (Joe the Plumber, Leno's "Jay walking" etc.) does that block really play a role at the actual ballot box?
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th November 2008, 04:21 AM   #36
JihadJane
not a camel
 
JihadJane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 85,730
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I wonder about the overlap between the Moron Block and the non-voting block. We know that voter turnout in America is piss-poor. I would advance the thesis (without any evidential backup, to get that monkey off my back ) that the moron block might also substanitally overlap with the non-voting block. If that is the case, while some highly visible morons achieve media visibility (Joe the Plumber, Leno's "Jay walking" etc.) does that block really play a role at the actual ballot box?
I don't personally subscribe to any "moron" conspiracy theories because they ignore the socio-economic-political context which forms people's attitudes. However, it could be argued that only morons vote in an election that is nothing but a circus. Voting makes us complicit in the coruption, like we somehow asked for it by voting for it. If you vote for it what right have you got to complain about it?

George Carlin On Voting In US Elections:

4 Minute Video

Warning - Some readers may find the contents offensive. NSFW

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle21138.htm
__________________
empty void in space epic wasteland so dark you have no direction and die in sensory deprivation madness all your fault anyway jerk ~ Hlafordlaes
JihadJane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th November 2008, 04:44 AM   #37
Father Dagon
Graduate Poster
 
Father Dagon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,193
Isn't the silent majority kin to "my dad can beat up your dad"?

And regarding low informed voters, there was a opinion poll (source escapes me) that showed that the more educated you are; the more media you consume and the more media you consume; the more misinformed you are.
__________________
"Eh-ya-ya-ya-yahaah - e'yayayayaaaa... nhg'aaaaa... ngh'aaaa... h'yuh... h'yuh... HELP! HELP!... ff-ff-ff-FATHER! FATHER! YOG-SOTHOTH"
Father Dagon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:17 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.