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Tags democrats , lihop , mihop , republicans

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Old 8th February 2010, 08:52 AM   #1
Walter Ego
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61% Of Democrats Are/Were 9/11 Truthers

This rather astounding statement was made recently on this thread in the politics forum. (I have italicized the weasel words.)

Quote:
How about the democrats unload the 61% of thier [sic] members who thought at one time or another that 9/11 was an inside job
When asked to produce a source the poster came up with this Rasmussen Report from 2007.

(Rasmussen Reports is "an electronic publishing firm specializing in the collection, publication, and distribution of public opinion polling information" and did not commission or conduct the poll. I cannot find any info on the Rasmussen page about where the poll came from.)

The title of the article was 22% Believe Bush Knew About 9/11 Attacks in Advance and the survey was of "likely voters."

The overall results on the 9/11 questions were:

Quote:
Did the CIA Know About the 9/11 Attacks in Advance?

Yes 29% No 41% Not sure 30%

Did Bush Know About the 9/11 Attacks in Advance?

Yes 22% No 55% Not sure 22%
For likely voters who identified themselves as democrats:

Quote:
Democrats in America are evenly divided on the question of whether George W. Bush knew about the 9/11 terrorist attacks in advance. Thirty-five percent (35%) of Democrats believe he did know, 39% say he did not know, and 26% are not sure.
For republicans:

Quote:
18% believe the President knew and 57% take the opposite view.
Which would leave 25% of the republicans "not sure" that Bush knew in advance of the 9/11 attacks.

From the data above about likely voters who identify themselves as democrats, our forum member adds 35 (sure Bush knew in advance) + 26 (not sure) = 61 and gets "61% of [democrats] thought at one time or another that 9/11 was an inside job." (Again I have italicised the weasel words.)

Note that "knew in advance" would be LIHOP at best and believing the Bush administration had intelligence about the impending attacks that was ignored is not the same as believing Bush knew about, planned or was responsible for an "inside job" that happened on 9/11. Also, using the same poll results and the same "logic," we could say 44% of all likely voters polled and 43% of republicans polled believed 9/11 was an inside job.

I can play the same get-creative-with-numbers game too.

From a recently commissioned poll of self-identified republicans.

Quote:
Do you believe Barack Obama was born in the United States, or not?

Yes 42
No 36
Not Sure 22

36 + 22 = 58
So the majority (58%) of republicans are birthers.

Quote:
Do you believe ACORN stole the 2008 election?

Yes 21
No 24
Not Sure 55
21 + 55 = 76

So the overwhelming majority (76%) of republicans believe ACORN conspired (with whom?) to steal the election for Obama.

Last edited by Walter Ego; 8th February 2010 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 8th February 2010, 08:57 AM   #2
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Sword of Truth has redefined "fuzzy math".

35% becomes 61%. Fascinating.
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Old 8th February 2010, 09:01 AM   #3
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Even if this were true, it would tell us far more about an average voter than about anything else.

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Old 8th February 2010, 09:05 AM   #4
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SoT knows better then to post that crap. I think SoT is a great person, and has been a great help over here in 9/11CT, but I think politics sometimes makes us say and do strange things.

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Old 8th February 2010, 09:08 AM   #5
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Everyone knows 47% of statistics are made up.
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Old 8th February 2010, 09:11 AM   #6
Walter Ego
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Even if this were true, it would tell us far more about an average voter than about anything else.

McHrozni
The poll was of "likely voters," not registered voters, and, yes, it does tell us something about the intelligence of the American public, but it does not tell us that 61% of democrats believed 9/11 was an inside job. That was Sword of Truthyness' spin on the poll.

Last edited by Walter Ego; 8th February 2010 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 8th February 2010, 09:15 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
SoT knows better then to post that crap. I think SoT is a great person, and has been a great help over here in 9/11CT, but I think politics sometimes makes us say and do strange things.

TAM
Yes, like calling people whose politics you disagree with "truthers" when you know they are not.

Last edited by Walter Ego; 8th February 2010 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 8th February 2010, 09:33 AM   #8
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This belongs in the politics sub-forum. Or hell, it really doesn't even deserve it's own thread. This should be in response to SoT's claim.
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Old 8th February 2010, 09:33 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Harpo View Post
Everyone knows 47% of statistics are made up.
I believe the correct number is 73%, from this link.
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Old 8th February 2010, 09:40 AM   #10
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Just like I've always said...911 Truth is the most important issue in America. Discussion about it is overwhelming. Everywhere you go, everyone wants to know, what really happened on 911. Bookstores and newspapers are full of speculation. It' s the topic that dominates the construction industry, schools of engineering and toilet manufacturer's conventions. It is simply the most important thing that has happened in your lifetime.

Does that answer your quiry about how many people are really concerned about 911 Truth?
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Old 8th February 2010, 09:46 AM   #11
Walter Ego
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
This belongs in the politics sub-forum. Or hell, it really doesn't even deserve it's own thread. This should be in response to SoT's claim.
Swordy's claim was off topic in the thread it was posted in and it was about 9/11 truthyness so I posted it here. There have been many discussions here about who believes in "inside job" theories and why they believe in such theories.

The mods, however, can move this thread to politics if they wish.

Last edited by Walter Ego; 8th February 2010 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 8th February 2010, 09:47 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by scott.in.taiwan View Post
Just like I've always said...911 Truth is the most important issue in America. Discussion about it is overwhelming. Everywhere you go, everyone wants to know, what really happened on 911. Bookstores and newspapers are full of speculation.


you!!!!
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Old 8th February 2010, 09:52 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post


you!!!!
What's the matter? Can't handle the truth?
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Old 8th February 2010, 09:53 AM   #14
Walter Ego
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Originally Posted by scott.in.taiwan View Post
Just like I've always said...911 Truth is the most important issue in America. Discussion about it is overwhelming. Everywhere you go, everyone wants to know, what really happened on 911. Bookstores and newspapers are full of speculation. It' s the topic that dominates the construction industry, schools of engineering and toilet manufacturer's conventions. It is simply the most important thing that has happened in your lifetime.

Does that answer your quiry about how many people are really concerned about 911 Truth?
Who are you addressing here? Your question begs the question about why people are still spending their time on this subforum trying to convince truthers of the errors of their ways and playing footsie with the trolls.

Personally, I'm bored silly with troof which is why I seldom post here anymore.
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Old 8th February 2010, 10:23 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Walter Ego View Post
The poll was of "likely voters," not registered voters, and, yes, it does tell us something about the intelligence of the American public, but it does not tell us that 61% of democrats believed 9/11 was an inside job. That was Sword of Truthyness' spin on the poll.
Oh, certainly

However, even if there was a poll that showed 95% of architects and structural engineers worldwide believed in the current version of da twoof, all that would tell us is that we should start living in tents

It doesn't matter how many people polls show something, the facts remain as they are. The fact is there is not a shred of proof any of the CTers theories are remotely correct.

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Old 8th February 2010, 10:54 AM   #16
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I'm by all confused by this. There's not a shred of evidence that any of our Truther heros even believe that any of their CT theories are even true. Like a bunch of key board commandos, they tirelessly post videos claiming that thousands were murdered.

Why does anybody do anything? Why don't we all live in caves and wear the simplest of clothing? I can barely understand why I do anything and I have immediate access to my reasons. You tell me why anybody posts here when we all know the Truther movement is dead? It may be we find the whole thing so offensive, the idea that anybody does or might believe in it is enough to make us want to stomp it out. Just think of it like the KKK. No one joins the Klan anymore except morons. That doesn't mean you should stop caring about who joins it.
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Old 8th February 2010, 11:25 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Even if this were true, it would tell us far more about an average voter than about anything else.

McHrozni
Almost half of all voters have below average intelligence.
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Old 8th February 2010, 11:36 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer View Post
Almost half of all voters have below average intelligence.
That's not necessarily true. Only half the population votes in even the best turnout. It could be that only those with above average intelligence vote.
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Old 8th February 2010, 12:33 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by scott.in.taiwan View Post
That's not necessarily true. Only half the population votes in even the best turnout. It could be that only those with above average intelligence vote.
Oh, yeah?

then explain Michelle Bachman!
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Old 8th February 2010, 12:38 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer View Post
Almost half of all voters have below average intelligence.
Yes, but more than half are above median intelligence.

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Old 8th February 2010, 12:44 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Yes, but more than half are above median intelligence.

McHrozni
more than half?

How do you figure that?
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Old 8th February 2010, 12:57 PM   #22
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It's always been my observation that most of the truth movement back in its heyday was populated by people with a strong democratic party leaning whose main target was smearing Bush with anything that they could think of. They started to let up when their party of choice took the congress in 07 and almost entirely disappeared when Obama took office in 09.

All that's left is the same old black helicopter crowd on the right and the die hard lefties who invested so much of themselves in the effort that they can't let go. Add in the nutjobs from the center and the snake oil salesmen and that's what it's reduced to today.
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Old 8th February 2010, 01:14 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am View Post
It's always been my observation that most of the truth movement back in its heyday was populated by people with a strong democratic party leaning whose main target was smearing Bush with anything that they could think of. They started to let up when their party of choice took the congress in 07 and almost entirely disappeared when Obama took office in 09.
My experience, from the original LC forum and from before there was a dedicated 9/11 CT forum here is your observation is not true. Sure left of politically center political beliefs are represented, but the common denominator is their propensity to believe in CT's, in general, not political bias. Early on I often asked and found they believed OKC, Waco, were CT. If there was a political bias, it was anti-government in general and more specifically against whoever one was in power at the time.

Of course both of our observations (or at least mine is) just anecdotal.
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Old 8th February 2010, 01:53 PM   #24
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No, you're correct, it was anecdotal. I don't think that the TM was started by the people I described but that instead they latched onto it to try and smear Bush with it. It does help to explain why the TM started to start dying out in 2007 and then pretty much sputtered to a halt in 2009. In other words I think that they wanted to believe it because it was inconvenient for Bush but that once it started to be inconvenient for their guys they stopped wanting to believe it.
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Old 8th February 2010, 02:21 PM   #25
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Many Chemtrail nuts migrated to trutherism once the chemie thing died out.
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Old 8th February 2010, 02:26 PM   #26
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funny, how the author of this crap...is no where to be seen.

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Old 8th February 2010, 03:32 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am View Post
It's always been my observation that most of the truth movement back in its heyday was populated by people with a strong democratic party leaning whose main target was smearing Bush with anything that they could think of. They started to let up when their party of choice took the congress in 07 and almost entirely disappeared when Obama took office in 09.
I was paying zero attention to the 9/11 TM before about December of 2008 but I was following the popular liberal blogs during the midterm elections of '06 and '08. (I believe the heyday of the TM is considered to be '06 to '08.) I saw no mention of Bush having "foreknowledge" of the terrorist attacks in any of those blogs much less that he was responsible for them.

As Bush's popularity tanked, largely as the result of the debacle that was the Iraq war, I think more and more people who don't normally entertain conspiracy theories began to cynically believe that Bush or the CIA "knew in advance" that terrorists were going to attack this country and took no action to stop it and that he used 9/11 as a pretext to invade Iran. (Note that 18% of republicans in the poll believed Bush "knew in advance.")

Such beliefs are widespread. I remember my father telling me as a child that FDR "let" the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor in order to get us into WW2. (He believed in other CTs too... but that's another story.)

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Old 8th February 2010, 04:41 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Yes, but more than half are above median intelligence.
~99% of Democrats (or Republicans for that matter) have more than the average number of legs.
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Old 9th February 2010, 06:05 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer View Post
more than half?

How do you figure that?
The number of highly intelligent people approximately matches the number of retarded people, who can't vote. Therefore there are more voters above mean intelligence of the nation.

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Old 9th February 2010, 08:49 AM   #30
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A Final Word

This subject seems to be exhausted and I have no interest in pursuing it but for those who are interested in how political party affiliation may lead to believe in conspiracy theories (specifically 9/11 truth and Obama birther theories), I found two articles by David Paul Kuhn of the Real Clear Politics blog.

Quote:
Both Parties Have Their Fanatics

Fully 35 percent of Democrats believe George W. Bush had advance knowledge of the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Fully 28 percent of Republicans believe Barack Obama wasn't born in the United States

Meet the fanatical third

The tale of two conspiracy theories is the tale of the most polarized among us. The two statistics are based on a poll apiece. Neither is an exact measure. Yet, lots of liberals say take the "birther" poll on face value. Lots of conservatives say take the "truther" poll on face value. So let's listen to both sides ...

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...ics_97748.html

The followup article can be found here.

http://realclearpolitics.blogs.time....ruther-denial/

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Old 9th February 2010, 10:09 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The number of highly intelligent people approximately matches the number of retarded people, who can't vote. Therefore there are more voters above mean intelligence of the nation.

McHrozni
Actually, that's a little simplistic. The distribution of intelligence is not symmetric about the mean. If you go by IQ, the mean is defined to be 100. The theoretical minimum is 0, but it's not actually possible to get that low without being dead. On the other hand, it's entirely possible to get over 200. So even looked at simply, it's obvious that it's possible to be get further above the mean than you can get below it.

But it's actually more complicated than that, since even if you assume that the maxima and minima are equidistant from the mean, that still does not mean there is any symmetry. A large number of people falling slightly below the mean could be balanced by a much smaller number a larger distance above it, or vice versa. I believe that one of these is the case, although I can't remember exactly which way round it is. I think it's more people falling below the mean.

Finally, it turns out that different populations don't behave in the same way. Looking at race, or even trying to define race in a meaningful way, is unlikely to get any sensible discussion. On the other hand, it's well known that men and women have different distributions of IQ. Men tend to fall further from the mean than women. That means that the prevalence of acknowledged male geniuses over female is not just a cultural artefact, men are genuinely more likely to be geniuses. On the other hand, they're also more likely to be retarded.

Of course, when it comes to voting, as you note, you're not looking at the general population but only those who are allowed to vote and actually choose to do so. I have no idea how that would skew things, and to be honest I doubt anyone else does either. I suspect that even counting the severely mentally handicapped who aren't allowed to vote, there will still be more eligible voters with below mean IQ, but I have no idea what proportions will actually choose to vote, or even if intelligence has anything to do with it at all.
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Old 9th February 2010, 11:31 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
...retarded people, who can't vote.

In the US they can, and do.

Some individuals might be unable to carry out the procedure (going to the polling place, etc.) which is a shame because it suggests that they are not being provided with the general level of care and assistance they need. But there is no law preventing them from voting.

Respectfully,
Myriad
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Old 9th February 2010, 11:51 AM   #33
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The Scripps poll came up with a total of 50% of Democrats who thought it very likely (22%) or somewhat likely (28%) that Bush knew in advance of the attacks. Let me point out as well that Howard Dean openly speculated about this in September 2003.

That said, I suspect it's a case of people misinterpreting the 8/6/01 PDB. Wasn't it the NY Post (hardly a liberal paper) that ran a headline reading "Bush Knew"?
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Old 9th February 2010, 12:21 PM   #34
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In addition to the questionable extrapolation mentioned above, the questions are not sufficiently well worded to determine of someone was a truther or not.

There is plenty of information to suggest that various US intelligence agencies had enough information to piece together the 9/11 attacks, and that it’s possible of even likely some of this went to the president himself. There is, however, no evidence or particular reason to believe anyone ever connected the dots.

The truther position is that someone either the US government deliberately caused the attacks or at some point connected the dots and knew the attacks would happen and failed to act.

The questions don’t sufficiently differentiate between these two possibilities.
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Old 9th February 2010, 01:35 PM   #35
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OK ... Not My Final Word

My point in the OP was that we should not use truther logic or use truther tactics to label people we disagree with on politics or anything else as truthers. If we do we are playing the game by truther standards.

To wit: A poll commissioned in October 2006 by CBS and The New York Times gave the following results.

Quote:
When it comes to what they knew prior to September 11th, 2001, about possible terrorist attacks against the United States, do you think members of the Bush Administration are telling the truth, are mostly telling the truth but hiding something, or are they mostly lying?

Telling the truth 16%

Hiding something 53%

Mostly lying 28%

Not sure 3%

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/13469

Truthers added 53 + 28 + 3 = 84 and trumpeted the results as showing the overwhelming majority of Americans were coming around to the views of their movement.


Quote:
Scientific Poll: 84% Reject Official 9/11 Story

Only 16% now believe official fable according to New York Times/CBS News poll

Truth Movement has the huge majority of opinion

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles...141006poll.htm

Keven Barrett on the Bill O'Reilly Show.

"84% of the American people do not accept the 9/11 Commission report." (beginning at about the 00:50 mark)

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Wikipedia has a good summary of national and international opinions on 9/11 according to polling data.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_opinion_polls
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Old 9th February 2010, 02:45 PM   #36
BenBurch
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My experience helping run a Democratic forum is that ~ 5% were truthers, and we ran most of them off by calling them on their crap after first putting all of their posts in a 9/11 topic to keep them from bugging everybody.
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Old 9th February 2010, 04:13 PM   #37
CORed
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Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
I believe the correct number is 73%, from this link.
Well, that's the beauty of it. you can make up any number your want to.
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