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26th November 2009, 09:22 PM | #81 |
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Yes, from his OFFICE. Not from the party. The two are not synonymous.
Joe could well have chosen to remain in the party and support whatshisname or he could have sat out the election and run for another office as a Dem or he could have run in the next primary. All options which allowed him to stay in the party. He CHOSE not to exercise those options. He left the party and chose to run on a new ticket. |
26th November 2009, 09:49 PM | #82 |
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It's called "losing a primary". Lots of people lose primaries without quitting the party. Some even run again on the same ticket.
Note, by the way, that when Lieberman got elected anyway, the Dems let him keep his powerful committee chairmanship. Those vindictive SOBs. |
26th November 2009, 09:57 PM | #83 |
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26th November 2009, 10:14 PM | #84 |
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I hope not. Elections are a means to an end. Republicans could adopt centrist/Democratic ideas and win elections, but for what? ****, that's what Democrats do, and so now we have Obama: gays still can't serve in the military (nor can prominent Dems openly support discrimination-free marriage), warrantless wiretapping shall continue, the climate bill is a mess, Gitmo has not been closed down, we'll surge in Afghanistan, oh, and he's not even trying for universal health care.
Quote:
Yes, Republicans are in danger of becoming a southern party. As Tricky says, it's in everyone's interests to have competitive elections (otherwise you get the kind of Democrats we have in Sacramento), but it's not like these ten points will put Republicans out. If unemployment continues to rise, Afghanistan continues to worsen, Republicans can continue denying evolution, global warming, and everything else, it won't matter. The advice Democrats in this thread are giving Republicans is not unlike the advice Republicans were giving Democrats six years ago. DR writes:
Quote:
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26th November 2009, 10:17 PM | #85 |
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Yeah, there's a helluva lot wrong with it.
This "test" is nothing more or less than a power-grab by the wingnuts. In the USA -- a country of some 300 million people, spanning a continent -- you cannot be a viable party unless you form coalitions. This "test" effectively blocks any potential coalition-building efforts within the party. Which means it's a death sentence for the GOP. This is NOT the platform. This is an attempt to hijack the platform. |
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26th November 2009, 10:22 PM | #86 |
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Originally Posted by Piggy
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26th November 2009, 10:32 PM | #87 |
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No, that is not their job. Their job should be -- in part, as it relates to this sector of activity -- to coordinate the disparate local efforts in such a way as to maximize representation nationwide.
Ride herd? No. Not in that way, at least. Obviously, you've never heard of Louisiana's David Duke. As far as I know, there was never any effort (or at least any successful effort) to block his candidacy for national office as a Republican, even though he's an unapologetic Klansman. Thankfully, he hasn't managed to make the jump from state to national politics, but I'm not aware of any effort to kick him out of the party. I don't think he's a Republican now, but that seems to be the result of his unsuccessful bids as a national Republican candidate. In other words, it was his choice. And hey, the man who just marked a milestone as the longest serving member of the US Senate -- a Democrat, and a Klansman. |
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26th November 2009, 10:36 PM | #88 |
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Wrong again.
I invite you to go read the party platforms. You'll find they're a list of platitudes. In the USA, the last thing you want is unifying principles, because that's limiting. What you want are vague talking points, emotion-based slogans, and a platform that's loose enough to allow disparate (even opposed) factions to get under the tent. The movement toward a genuine set of unifying principles is a serious threat to the Republican party. |
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26th November 2009, 10:37 PM | #89 |
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26th November 2009, 10:41 PM | #90 |
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27th November 2009, 12:51 AM | #91 |
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What is the purpose of getting people elected? (to earn them lifetime job security; okay, the other reason) To get things done.
Somebody will be elected no matter what, but if the RNC spends considerable resources electing someone that votes with them only half the time, they've misspent funds that could have been allocated to an electable conservative somewhere else. |
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27th November 2009, 02:05 AM | #92 |
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27th November 2009, 08:00 AM | #93 |
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Yes, you'd much rather prefer a party of RINOs competing for who can fall to the liberal tide first.
Of course I know the term "RINO" can easily fall into a No True Scotsman pit. But I know Snowe and Scozzafava are both its representatives. Thank goodness the latter didn't get voted in. I'd prefer a Democrat to a squishy Republican. |
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27th November 2009, 10:04 AM | #94 |
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That's all well and good, but the registered Republicans in her district don't seem to agree with you, as evidenced by the fact that she won the primary, and was running as the Republican in the general election.
Because the CP fielded a candidate against her, they split the conservative vote, giving the Democrats a win in a district they have not held for over 100 years. How can this be explained away as something positive for the Republican party or conservatism. Regardless of political ideology, this instance is an example of the harm being caused to the Republican party due to this infighting. |
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27th November 2009, 11:06 AM | #95 |
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That was after the 2006 election. After the 2008 election, where he campaigned for McCain and Palin, after he spoke at the Rep convention and repeatedly attacked Obama and the agenda of the Democratic party, they gave him his chairmanship AGAIN. A chairmanship is a leadership position in the caucus. I know of no Republican Congressional leader, or member for that matter, who supported Obama in the 2008 election. |
27th November 2009, 04:02 PM | #96 |
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27th November 2009, 04:05 PM | #97 |
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You're missing the point.
"Vote with them"? As I've said, you can only maintain power in a country this large by forming coalitions, and there are always contradictions in those coalitions. The far right wing of the GOP is attempting to define what it means to "vote with" the GOP along their particular ideological framework. That's a death sentence for the party b/c it must necessarily result in permanent minority status. If the GOP wants to regain lost ground, they will have to give up on any strict definition of what it means to "vote with" the party. |
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27th November 2009, 04:23 PM | #98 |
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indeed. Republicans, if they want to win anything in the next 20 years, will have to learn to accept that some Republicans may want to be social moderates or even liberals, or some Republicans may want to be fiscal moderates.
if they can't accept this, then..well...they will have to be satisfied with being a smaller, more unified, and powerless group for a long time. |
27th November 2009, 05:18 PM | #99 |
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they need to add the ultimate test...
Must be Orange!11111!11 |
27th November 2009, 06:32 PM | #100 |
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27th November 2009, 08:33 PM | #101 |
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Let me take that from the other side. Yep, I'd rather have a party with a bunch of Blue Dogs screwing up my agenda than not. Why? Because the party in power has, well, lots of power. Chairmanships. Setting the calendar. Determining what even comes to the floor. Allowing what hearings occur and who can testify. And yes, other things such as more lobbyist gravy, more media attention, etc.
In short, enjoy your minority status and I'll enjoy my majority status. Hey, we're both happy. |
27th November 2009, 08:42 PM | #102 |
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27th November 2009, 08:42 PM | #103 |
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27th November 2009, 08:48 PM | #104 |
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Two things wrong with your post - first, the Republican was chosen in a smoke-filled room, and second, the Democratic win wasn't that big of a deal. A glance at the history of the seat will tell you. Thus, the point you are trying to make is rendered invalid.
Originally Posted by Piggy
Originally Posted by SezMe
Actually having a party that would stand for firm principles would change that status quo. If that would mean Republicans don't win a couple of elections going forward, I still might be for it. The Democrats can't last much longer the way they're going in the first place.
Originally Posted by Corsair 115
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27th November 2009, 08:53 PM | #105 |
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i honestly believe, that if the GOP continues down the extremist route, they will break the trend, and NOT recapture Congress or the White House in 2012 or 2016.
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27th November 2009, 08:57 PM | #106 |
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27th November 2009, 08:58 PM | #107 |
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27th November 2009, 09:00 PM | #108 |
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27th November 2009, 09:04 PM | #109 |
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27th November 2009, 09:09 PM | #110 |
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An argument could be made to ban abortion on nonreligious terms. For example, murder of a pregnant woman is a double homicide. You don't have to crab about the soul to realize that. (I don't believe in the discrete, personalized existence of a soul.) Second, you can refuse gay marriage and still pass the test.
Finally, the wars have created debt (though not anywhere as much as recent initiatives...funny the way that is). But there are ways to balance that debt that a realistic conservative would have to accept. |
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27th November 2009, 09:33 PM | #111 |
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28th November 2009, 11:37 AM | #112 |
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28th November 2009, 12:04 PM | #113 |
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Every constituency is different.
I live in the great state of Nevada. Now, we only have two senators, two representatives, and four electoral college votes, so we wouldn't count until ... until we counted as much as one corner of Florida ... Nonetheless. Nevada was a "red state" for Bush. It went blue for Obama. It could go red again. But when Republicans scheme about how to turn it red, they need to think about the following subjects: (1) We have a large Hispanic community. Good luck with that. (2) We have a 0% state income tax. You can't make that better unless you start paying us all a stipend. Like Alaska. (3) The income of the state, and the reason that our citizens have 0% state income tax, is based on the fact that we provide vices that horrify Christian conservatives. --- So, we're not likely to choose a conservative ideologue. A Republican, perhaps. Indeed, frequently. But the idealist ideologue who scores a 10 on the purity test, never. Now, I admit, Nevada is not a large or significant state. But it all adds up. And Nevada is not a typical state. But no state is a typical state. So they all add up one by one. |
28th November 2009, 02:29 PM | #114 |
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28th November 2009, 02:30 PM | #115 |
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28th November 2009, 02:42 PM | #116 |
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You are still not understanding this....
You're defining "us" -- by which I assume you mean the GOP -- in terms of one faction of the party. You're starting out by assuming that the extreme right is the True Israel and everyone else in the party doesn't belong. Fact is, the failed strategies of the extreme right have managed to decimate our party when their anti-reality stance got its ass kicked by reality (e.g., military quagmires, financial collapse, and denial of environmental truths which even "big business" now generally accepts) and as a result the large majority of those who are still left happen to be from dead-ender districts and therefore are beholden to folks who persist in their fantasies of a workable unregulated market and other such pipe dreams. If we're going to recover, we're not going to do it by kicking even more people out and circling the wagons around policies that appeal to the least informed, most gullible segments of the population. In order to get back in power, we've got to find a way to bring our old allies back into the fold, including (and especially) the mainstream business constituency who were rightly appalled by the rank-and-file GOP non-response to what was very nearly a global economic freeze which could have pitched us into a worldwide depression. In other words, "us" is not the radical right. "Us" is the entire party, the whole spectrum. And if we don't broaden the spectrum, eventually someone else will figure out a way to organize the big unaffiliated middle -- which is now the overwhelming majority -- into a new party that could send the GOP the way of the Whigs. |
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28th November 2009, 02:47 PM | #117 |
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28th November 2009, 04:43 PM | #118 |
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Which is one of the reasons why people like myself no longer trust the Republicans to do anything fiscally responsible. They used to, as a party, promote that ideal. Now they're all "INO's" as far as being fiscally responsible goes. They want to spend much just like the Democrats. The only difference is what they want to spend it on.
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28th November 2009, 05:16 PM | #119 |
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28th November 2009, 05:50 PM | #120 |
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At least you can be pro-choice and in favor of marriage equality at the same time. Though I don't see many Republicans supporting that. I'll wait for the other fifty commandments that will kill social liberalism...
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