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Old 30th November 2009, 04:57 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by Piggy View Post
I've never said that, although it's certainly true that Palin whipped them into a frenzy.

In fact, Palin was the wrong strategy because Obama's candidacy had already brought out the base in force. Palin was redundant in that regard, and only served to alienate the voters McCain really needed -- middle-of-the-road independents and Reagan Democrats.

The problem now is that ideological extremism by the GOP has left the remaining seats dependent on the far right-wing fringe, the kind of folks who cheer Palin, leave Fox News playing on their TVs all day, and believe Glenn Beck's nonsense.

That's why this purity test is the wrong move. It goes farther in the direction that has already cost us the White House and Congress.
You think Palin's candidacy was redundant? Man, you must not know many Palinites.

Another approach: what constructive legislation, in your opinion, did Republicans accomplish in their (ETA: most recent) congressional reign that could not have been accomplished under the other party?

Quote:
Yes, they are in a bind, because if the current bump is due to the stimulus rather than real economic growth, it has done exactly what it was intended to do.
Psst...jobs.
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Old 30th November 2009, 06:43 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Piggy View Post
So you still haven't read the platforms, eh? Well, ok.
You post out of ignorance, but I'm sure you're used to it by now. One of the courses I teach is intro to government, where I regularly assign students a political parties comparison research assignment; they are instructed to compare party platforms, so not only have I read them, but I sometimes get over a hundred papers in a quarter quoting planks, and in two weeks I'm sure I will be to recite the Democratic Party's position on abortion verbatim.

I'll repeat what I said earlier to you: you don't have much of an argument.

Quote:
So you're saying that people don't actually think this, they don't even seem to think it, but they almost seem to think it?
Are you really this dense? And if you choose to answer, you can do it the same reply box. You don't need to flood the forum with any more sense than you have already.

And here's another person who seems to post only for the sake of squeezing something out.

PonderingTurtle:

Quote:
And your context is like trying to get people to change water from being wet.
Oh-K. More importantly, it still doesn't change the fact you rather foolishly misinterpreted my comment, made something out of it that it wasn't, and then in a face-saving movement claim that it's meaningless. Fine, fine.

Quote:
Only way to attain your goals.
Ah, so now you're saying it wasn't implied. You again want to impose your point of view upon it. Thanks, let's just be more upfront in the future.

I concede that there is a possibility that Americans might decide they don't like the basic Republican principles. But the GOP hasn't been pushing basic Republican principles over the past decade, so there's no reason to keep the status quo.

Quote:
Nice true scottsman fallacy right there. There is no difference between true republicans and actual republicans. You want the democratic party to be the only national party in the US.
The No True Scotsman is one of the more abused "fallacies" on this forum. Any mere mention of "true" sets it off for the weak, a sort of wannabe skeptic's equivalent of charging the second law of thermodynamics invalidates evolution. If you are serious meaningful differences, then you might want to start capitalizing political parties. And thank you for telling me what I want; yet again, you exhibit not the slightest subtlety in distinguishing between what I consciously want and what you think I effectively want, but then such nuance requires careful thinking, and we can't have any of that from the types who impulsively cry "true scottsman"!
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Old 30th November 2009, 06:47 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Sporanox View Post
You think Palin's candidacy was redundant? Man, you must not know many Palinites.
Are you kidding? I'm up to my eyeballs in Palinites.

But still, you don't seem to be able to grasp what I am clearly saying.

Palin's candidacy was redundant because Obama's candidacy had already accomplished what the McCain campaign hoped to achieve by adding her to the ticket.

Sending her on her rally tour added nothing to the Republican chances, and subtracted quite a bit. It was a net loss.

If you're going to argue otherwise, I'm afraid the facts are against you.
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Old 30th November 2009, 06:48 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
You post out of ignorance, but I'm sure you're used to it by now. One of the courses I teach is intro to government, where I regularly assign students a political parties comparison research assignment; they are instructed to compare party platforms, so not only have I read them, but I sometimes get over a hundred papers in a quarter quoting planks, and in two weeks I'm sure I will be to recite the Democratic Party's position on abortion verbatim.
And yet you see substantive differences? Interesting.
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Old 30th November 2009, 07:02 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Sporanox View Post
Psst...jobs.
No one expected a jobs recovery from the stimulus. They expected some make-work jobs, and even then everyone knew it would lag.

Nobody was predicting anything but a classic jobless recovery, with jobs following on the heels.
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Old 30th November 2009, 07:03 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by Piggy View Post
Sending her on her rally tour added nothing to the Republican chances, and subtracted quite a bit. It was a net loss.

If you're going to argue otherwise, I'm afraid the facts are against you.
Facts are in short supply in political campaign analysis but opinions are a dime a dozen. So here's mine - keep the change.

I disagree that Palin was a net loss, especially in the first month or so after she was picked. McCain was weak, the base was lukewarm and the campaign was going nowhere. Palin brought emotion, passion and crowds to her rallys. The base had SOMETHING to cheer for and the ticket had some charisma to counter Obama.

In the long run, not so much. But I don't dismiss her impact quite as much as you do, Piggy.
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Old 30th November 2009, 07:04 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Are you really this dense? And if you choose to answer, you can do it the same reply box.
So you follow up your "people almost seem to think" with a contention that cramming my replies into one box is somehow essentially different from splitting them.

Amazing how your mind works.
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Old 30th November 2009, 07:06 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
In the long run, not so much.
But in campaigns, the long run is all that matters.

The effort failed, because the base was going to come around for the GOP ticket anyway.

McCain abandoned the fight for the middle, which is all that mattered.
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Old 1st December 2009, 10:42 AM   #209
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It looks as if the GOP establishment is pushing back against the idea of the "purity test"...

GOP establishment scorns purity test
Quote:
Establishment Republicans are recoiling at a draft proposal before the Republican National Committee that would bar party financial support for candidates who fail to meet eight of 10 issue tests.

The resolution, the latest skirmish in the GOP’s ongoing internal ideological battle, would require candidates to meet a purity test on fiscal and social issues or risk being denied direct and coordinated spending from the national committee.

But numerous top party officials say that imposing such a conservative litmus test would only spur intra-party bickering at a time when Republicans are poised to make significant gains in next year’s mid-term elections.

“We’re becoming a church that would rather chase away heretics than welcome converts and that’s no way to become a majority party,” complained former Rep. Tom Davis, a Virginia Republican who served as National Republican Congressional Committee chairman. “This makes no sense for those of us who are interested in winning elections.” ...
This is a welcome development, imo. But it is not going to sit well with the Limbaugh/Beck/Tea Party wingnut crowd... not one bit. I expect more TP-induced ranting and raving to follow.

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Old 1st December 2009, 10:43 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Piggy View Post
But in campaigns, the long run is all that matters.

The effort failed, because the base was going to come around for the GOP ticket anyway.

McCain abandoned the fight for the middle, which is all that mattered.
Which is why, ultimately, the Tea Party strategy of "ideological purity" is doomed in the long run.
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Old 1st December 2009, 11:09 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Sporanox View Post
Psst...jobs.
Jobs are a trailing ecconomic indicator, not a leading ecconomic indicator. For example I work in manufacturing, we are like I think a lot of companies, we are presently swamped with work for our current workforce because we laid off many of the people. Now we are trying to delay hireing more workers because we want to see if the level of work will keep increasing to were it was 2 years ago.

So the company is doing much better sales are up something like 30% from what they were 6 months ago, but we haven't increased our work force yet.
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Old 1st December 2009, 11:13 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
The No True Scotsman is one of the more abused "fallacies" on this forum. Any mere mention of "true" sets it off for the weak, a sort of wannabe skeptic's equivalent of charging the second law of thermodynamics invalidates evolution. If you are serious meaningful differences, then you might want to start capitalizing political parties. And thank you for telling me what I want; yet again, you exhibit not the slightest subtlety in distinguishing between what I consciously want and what you think I effectively want, but then such nuance requires careful thinking, and we can't have any of that from the types who impulsively cry "true scottsman"!
You were differentiating True Republicans(tm) from the Republicans currently in office, this is a no true scotsman fallacy. You are deciding that some idealized version of republicans who have not been in evidence on the national sceen in decades are more republican than those being elected as republicans.

True republicans are those elected on the republican ticket.
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Old 1st December 2009, 11:31 AM   #213
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Even setting aside the fallacies in the test questions themselves, and what they have to do with being a Republican, why require eight out of ten?

Why not six? Or five? Not only would this test limit Republicans, it would greatly limit them. Hell, the way the questions are it basically says, "fiscal conservatives who are not way right on social issues get the **** out."

It's just so poorly thought out on so many levels it's surprising that the GOP even sees a need to address it.
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Old 1st December 2009, 11:45 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
True republicans are those elected on the republican ticket.
Exactly, Republicans, as described by many on this forum haven't existed in my politically aware lifetime, i.e. mid 1960's on.
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Old 1st December 2009, 03:38 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Piggy View Post
Are you kidding? I'm up to my eyeballs in Palinites.

But still, you don't seem to be able to grasp what I am clearly saying.

Palin's candidacy was redundant because Obama's candidacy had already accomplished what the McCain campaign hoped to achieve by adding her to the ticket.

Sending her on her rally tour added nothing to the Republican chances, and subtracted quite a bit. It was a net loss.

If you're going to argue otherwise, I'm afraid the facts are against you.
Yes, Palin constituted a net loss, but a gain with the base.

Originally Posted by Piggy
No one expected a jobs recovery from the stimulus. They expected some make-work jobs, and even then everyone knew it would lag.

Nobody was predicting anything but a classic jobless recovery, with jobs following on the heels.
Hmm, where have I heard the phrase "created or saved" before...must be my imagination...oh wait.

What?

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle
So the company is doing much better sales are up something like 30% from what they were 6 months ago, but we haven't increased our work force yet.
It was stated in the sale of the stimulus that...

By the way, Piggy, I notice you didn't reply to this question:

Originally Posted by Sporanox
Another approach: what constructive legislation, in your opinion, did Republicans accomplish in their (ETA: most recent) congressional reign that could not have been accomplished under the other party?
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Old 1st December 2009, 05:26 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Sporanox View Post
By the way, Piggy, I notice you didn't reply to this question:
I stayed out of the way because you addressed you question directly to Piggy but if you had asked me I would have asked for a restatement of the question because in its present form, I don't understand it.
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Old 1st December 2009, 07:01 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Jobs are a trailing ecconomic indicator, not a leading ecconomic indicator. For example I work in manufacturing, we are like I think a lot of companies, we are presently swamped with work for our current workforce because we laid off many of the people. Now we are trying to delay hireing more workers because we want to see if the level of work will keep increasing to were it was 2 years ago.

So the company is doing much better sales are up something like 30% from what they were 6 months ago, but we haven't increased our work force yet.
Ditto us. Our fulfillment crew is actually back up to full hours now (thank Athe) but we're not doing any hiring.
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Old 1st December 2009, 07:03 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Sporanox View Post
Yes, Palin constituted a net loss, but a gain with the base.
Which is useless.
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Old 1st December 2009, 07:04 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Sporanox View Post
Hmm, where have I heard the phrase "created or saved" before...must be my imagination...oh wait.
Non-sequitur.
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Old 1st December 2009, 07:06 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by Sporanox View Post
By the way, Piggy, I notice you didn't reply to this question:

Originally Posted by Sporanox View Post
Another approach: what constructive legislation, in your opinion, did Republicans accomplish in their (ETA: most recent) congressional reign that could not have been accomplished under the other party?
I ignored it for the same reason SezMe did. I have no idea what you're talking about.
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Old 1st December 2009, 07:43 PM   #221
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What were the constructive accomplishments of Republicans in their last congressional period of domination? Do you think the same legislation could have been implemented by Democrats had they been in power at the time?

Originally Posted by Piggy
Non-sequitur.
I'll finish it: "we created or saved (x number) of jobs..."

- Barack Obama, 208320821 times this year
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Old 1st December 2009, 08:23 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Sporanox View Post
I'll finish it: "we created or saved (x number) of jobs..."

- Barack Obama, 208320821 times this year
Yeah, yeah, I know. I got the reference. I just don't understand the relevance.
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Old 1st December 2009, 08:24 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Sporanox View Post
What were the constructive accomplishments of Republicans in their last congressional period of domination? Do you think the same legislation could have been implemented by Democrats had they been in power at the time?
Again, you're losing me. I've lost the thread. Why are you asking this?
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Old 1st December 2009, 08:42 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Piggy View Post
Again, you're losing me. I've lost the thread. Why are you asking this?
You understand the first question, right? What do you consider the Republican legislative accomplishments in the past Republican reign?

Point being, what's the use of a Republican Congress if they don't really get anything of significance done?

Quote:
Yeah, yeah, I know. I got the reference. I just don't understand the relevance.
It was a goal of the stimulus.

Originally Posted by Piggy
No one expected a jobs recovery from the stimulus. They expected some make-work jobs, and even then everyone knew it would lag.
He never added the caveat "make-work," either.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 04:06 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You were differentiating True Republicans(tm) from the Republicans currently in office, this is a no true scotsman fallacy.
Actually, I mistakenly quoted you out of context. In fact, you were responding to another poster, accusing him of this No True Scotsman nonsense. The remarkable feature of the No True Scotsman Man fallacy involves convenient, ad hoc redefinition (see Flew's original example). But on these forums almost any time anyone ever says "true X" people immediately hop into action.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 04:20 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Sporanox View Post
It was stated in the sale of the stimulus that...
Here I thought it was to stimulate the ecconomy so that the ecconomy would recover and that would lower unemployment.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 04:25 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Actually, I mistakenly quoted you out of context. In fact, you were responding to another poster, accusing him of this No True Scotsman nonsense. The remarkable feature of the No True Scotsman Man fallacy involves convenient, ad hoc redefinition (see Flew's original example). But on these forums almost any time anyone ever says "true X" people immediately hop into action.
The point is that it was a No True Scotsman fallacy. He was having some idealized version of republicans that are not represented by the people elected by the republican party. That is the NTS fallacy.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 06:40 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Sporanox View Post
I'll finish it: "we created or saved (x number) of jobs..."

- Barack Obama, 208320821 times this year
What he did not say was: "... where x is a number so large that unemployment actually went down during a depression".

Oh, and he can't walk on water either.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 08:36 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Dr Adequate View Post
What he did not say was: "... where x is a number so large that unemployment actually went down during a depression".

Oh, and he can't walk on water either.
You must have missed the part where the predicted unemployment without the stimulus was actually less than actual unemployment with the stimulus. If you don't expect him to reach his own goals, you have set the bar low indeed.

BTW, depression is a different term than recession.

ETA

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle
Here I thought it was to stimulate the ecconomy so that the ecconomy would recover and that would lower unemployment.
Were you asleep every time he made an economy speech?
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Old 2nd December 2009, 11:17 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Sporanox View Post
You must have missed the part where the predicted unemployment without the stimulus was actually less than actual unemployment with the stimulus. If you don't expect him to reach his own goals, you have set the bar low indeed.
His stated goal (amongst other things) was to save or create a given number of jobs, not to use his magic powers of awesome to ensure that for the first time in the history of ever the universe would agree perfectly with the predictions of economists.

Quote:
BTW, depression is a different term than recession.
A depression is a severe recession. You don't think this counts?
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Old 2nd December 2009, 02:51 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
It looks as if the GOP establishment is pushing back against the idea of the "purity test"...

GOP establishment scorns purity test


This is a welcome development, imo. But it is not going to sit well with the Limbaugh/Beck/Tea Party wingnut crowd... not one bit. I expect more TP-induced ranting and raving to follow.

One of the real problems the GOP is has is that some of people who have the most influence in the party are people like Limbaugh and company who first concern is not getting GOPers elected, but in getting high ratings. Rush and his ilk will do anything,even if it hurts the party, to keep their audience and their ad revenues.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 03:17 PM   #232
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Old 2nd December 2009, 03:58 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Sporanox View Post
Another approach: what constructive legislation, in your opinion, did Republicans accomplish in their (ETA: most recent) congressional reign that could not have been accomplished under the other party?
I've thought about this and want to reply with another question. Since the Reps emphasize less government, distrust government, and think government is part of the problem not part of the solution, isn't the fact that they passed no significant legislation considered a good thing?
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Old 2nd December 2009, 04:03 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
One of the real problems the GOP is has is that some of people who have the most influence in the party are people like Limbaugh and company who first concern is not getting GOPers elected, but in getting high ratings.
I wonder how much influence the radio talkers really have. Rush didn't get his presidential pick, didn't screw up the Democratic Michigan primary, didn't get a win in NY23, etc. Probably the same assessment could be made of Hannity, Beck, etc.

How much sway do they really carry?
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Old 2nd December 2009, 04:43 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Dr Adequate
His stated goal (amongst other things) was to save or create a given number of jobs, not to use his magic powers of awesome to ensure that for the first time in the history of ever the universe would agree perfectly with the predictions of economists.
Dispense with the ridiculous language. Why do we trust those darn Obama economists anyway, if they can't even get the unemployment window correct?

That given number of jobs saved or created was the number necessary for unemployment to be bent to the stimulus crafters' predictions. So, the point is he didn't reach it.

Quote:
A depression is a severe recession. You don't think this counts?
How many economists agree with you?

Originally Posted by SezMe
I've thought about this and want to reply with another question. Since the Reps emphasize less government, distrust government, and think government is part of the problem not part of the solution, isn't the fact that they passed no significant legislation considered a good thing?
No, because I did not pose this question to a moderate Republican. If you posed the question to me, I still would say no. Besides the fact that legislative activity is required to reduce the size of government and make it more accountable to the public, Republicans actually displayed a penchant for increasing both the size and power of government - in fiscal and national security matters, respectively.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 05:47 PM   #236
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A depression has no hard and fast definition however the commonly accepted ones are a severe economic downturn marked especially by raising unemployment, several years of recession, or four straight quarters of negative growth.

I don't think it is out of line to call this last round a depression. It really has little impact on this thread though.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 07:33 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Sporanox View Post
You understand the first question, right? What do you consider the Republican legislative accomplishments in the past Republican reign?

Point being, what's the use of a Republican Congress if they don't really get anything of significance done?
No, I'm afraid I've lost the context.

I agree that we've had a do-nothing Congress for quite some time.

But I've simply lost the train of thought. I'm on several threads here, so I can't trace this one back. My fault.



Originally Posted by Sporanox View Post
It was a goal of the stimulus.
It was one of the goals of stimulus to provide stop-gap jobs on the public dole, but it was never a goal to provide real job recovery. A stimulus cannot do that.

Everyone knew (and knows) that real job recovery will lag.


ETA: The primary problem of the stop-gap job goal was that it conflicted with the requirement for oversight. You can either do things quickly, and invite fraud, or you can provide oversight and do things slowly. But you can't do things quickly and prevent fraud by providing adequate oversight.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 07:44 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
A depression has no hard and fast definition however the commonly accepted ones are a severe economic downturn marked especially by raising unemployment, several years of recession, or four straight quarters of negative growth.

I don't think it is out of line to call this last round a depression. It really has little impact on this thread though.
No, it doesn't. I only raise the issue because I'm used to hearing this situation referred to as a recession.

Originally Posted by Piggy
No, I'm afraid I've lost the context.

I agree that we've had a do-nothing Congress for quite some time.

But I've simply lost the train of thought. I'm on several threads here, so I can't trace this one back. My fault.
Dude, are you kidding me? You don't need to know the context.

Quote:
It was one of the goals of stimulus to provide stop-gap jobs on the public dole, but it was never a goal to provide real job recovery. A stimulus cannot do that.

Everyone knew (and knows) that real job recovery will lag.
Problem is, from the evidence we see, the stimulus wasn't cost-effective in that regard.

Quote:
ETA: The primary problem of the stop-gap job goal was that it conflicted with the requirement for oversight. You can either do things quickly, and invite fraud, or you can provide oversight and do things slowly. But you can't do things quickly and prevent fraud by providing adequate oversight.
Then maybe we shouldn't have rushed the stimulus.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 07:46 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I wonder how much influence the radio talkers really have. Rush didn't get his presidential pick, didn't screw up the Democratic Michigan primary, didn't get a win in NY23, etc. Probably the same assessment could be made of Hannity, Beck, etc.

How much sway do they really carry?
You've got to consider time frames.

The far right wing commentators held a minority right-wing audience, quite happily, thru the Dubya years. These were Dubya supporters who felt empowered.

In '04, they supported Bush and were paid off. They and their audiences were riding high.

'08 was a different kettle of fish.

They were not McCain supporters until Palin was brought on board. At that point, they were able to join the ticket.

But the loss was actually a boon to them. Limbaugh's ratings and Beck's ratings have actually gone up.

Their influence is not in determining elections. They are hangers-on as far as that is concerned.

Right now, their influence comes from the fact that those who remain staunchly loyal to the GOP are predominantly the same people who make up the Beck/Limbaugh audience.

In other words, now that the GOP is in the minority, the Beck/Limbaugh audience is suddenly the majority among GOP supporters.

That's a game changer.

Previously, they were a fractional demographic. Not any longer.

Before the '08 election, it was enough to simply placate that audience.

Now, most Republicans who still have their seats must actively court that audience, because their other constituents have abandoned them.

That's a huge difference.

In short, the loss has been a boom for the Beck/Limbaugh constituency.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 07:48 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by Sporanox View Post
Dude, are you kidding me? You don't need to know the context.
No, I'm not kidding you at all, and yes, I do need to know the context. I'm not trying to dodge you. Can you give me a recap?
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