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10th November 2018, 08:11 AM | #121 |
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"Your side has a literal racist Nazi elected to a position of government power and authority on it."
"Yeah but your side isn't arguing about it the right way" |
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10th November 2018, 08:14 AM | #122 |
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I don't believe in God and all the rest outside of methodological naturalism But I am a cognitive and ethical relativist/subjectivist and skeptic. #JeSuisAhmed |
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10th November 2018, 08:37 AM | #123 |
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^This guy gets it.
I assume that your comments, too, will be ignored by the white supremacy sympathizers. There's plenty of ironic bluster about how mean it is for the liberal snowflakes to hurt their feelings by calling out their racism but where is the logical, evidence-based defense of their racist views? Heck, how about we first get some pushback to make the case that race is even a scientifically defensible concept? |
10th November 2018, 08:53 AM | #124 |
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10th November 2018, 08:59 AM | #125 |
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Well yes, of course it is. Intentional, willful ignorance is worth calling out in and of itself, especially when evidence has been spoon-fed to you. When that is coupled with criticizing those who have the knowledge you refuse to absorb, it is worth being called out as wrong, and labelled as many things. |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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10th November 2018, 09:00 AM | #126 |
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Baron, explain what we should instead?
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I don't believe in God and all the rest outside of methodological naturalism But I am a cognitive and ethical relativist/subjectivist and skeptic. #JeSuisAhmed |
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10th November 2018, 09:03 AM | #127 |
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Thanks for doing your due diligence. It isn't like this is even an edge case, as you found in your review. The pushback on calling out the problems caused by such a man having government office, and the willful ignoring of the man's view, is in and of itself problematic. It is though darkly amusing that the main counterpoint has been, 'I'm ignorant and that isn't a problem'. |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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10th November 2018, 09:14 AM | #128 |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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10th November 2018, 09:22 AM | #129 |
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I don't believe in God and all the rest outside of methodological naturalism But I am a cognitive and ethical relativist/subjectivist and skeptic. #JeSuisAhmed |
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10th November 2018, 09:24 AM | #130 |
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It's kind of funny in that the argument comes full circle back on itself that way.
"Some people make overly broad generalizations with the label 'racism', don't really examine individual claims, and use it to stop conversations, therefore I'm going to assume you all are using it wrong like everyone on the left, will not examine this individual claim, and will not discuss this with you on the assumption you're arguing in bad faith." It's just...painfully silly. Some people do misapply accusations of racism, use it to stop examining why those ideas are wrong, and use it to 'write-off' people completely. That does not support the conclusion that King isn't a serious problem that should be talked about. |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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10th November 2018, 09:25 AM | #131 |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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10th November 2018, 09:28 AM | #132 |
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A flatulent way of saying We've told you what to think and if don't immediately fall in line you're a racist.
I haven't contested any of the views expressed about King's character, only the frothing, impermeable dynamics of the discussion, which you uphold admirably. I wouldn't dream of doing that. But what I will say is that threads like this are great for people who want to whine and feed off each other's outrage, not so great for any form of discussion and positively useless for propagating a logical argument that might change people's minds. |
10th November 2018, 09:31 AM | #133 |
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I mean this with all sincerity and I'd adore actual honest answers from people across the social and political spectrum.
When, and be honest, was the last time we; as a board, in politics, in the public sphere... had a discussion? When was the last time we had something that wasn't a self feeding discussion about the discussion? Because I can't remember. |
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10th November 2018, 09:38 AM | #134 |
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No, it is not. You can't claim to be ignorant of his racism when evidence has been presented. At that point, it is willful ignorance. Racism requires willful ignorance sure, but not all willful ignorance is racism.
I did not accuse you of racism. jimbob did not accuse you or racism. Not every criticism of your arguments is an accusation of racism. You can't just hide behind 'you accused me of racism so you're wrong'.
Quote:
Your characterization is wrong and a flaccid handwave. The entire effect of all your arguments have been to disparage discussions of racism in politics, and especially those who advance examination of it, and run interference for people like King. This is a worthy avenue of discussion. Your arguments writing off people being outraged that people like King, who espouse racist and frankly moronic arguments, as not being able to logically examine or argue is one of the mechanisms by which people like King retain political power. Arguing 'you're outraged, so you're wrong and incapable of discussion' is no different than logger posting 'triggered snowflake lol'. |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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10th November 2018, 09:44 AM | #135 |
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I'm not quite that cynical yet, although the last two years has been a parade of disappointments watching people break. There are edge cases and smaller movements in every nearly every discussion. Now, they are more difficult to see with the higher polarization and people sort of unify into two broad sides, the discussions within those sides still happen.
And discussions don't get defined by how much people change their positions. Getting information on how and why someone you still disagree with things can have some utility. I mean, at some level I could see how someone could criticize a thread like this as meaningless because of course King has displayed racism of a kind and level unfit to be a Denny's manager let alone being a representative, so who can disagree? Well, that people have, and have specifically taken the arguments they have, helps to hone arguments and gather data for the next time, when people who might be more open to actual discussion are around. |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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10th November 2018, 09:50 AM | #136 |
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No worries, you carry on then, under the delusion that you're 'having a discussion' when it's clear what you're doing is making an assertion and daring anybody to even debate it, let alone disagree. You haven't understood a single word I've said.
Still, I'm not one to be contrary, so here goes. Ahem... Steve King is a racist! OK, so that was great. To anybody else who wishes to join in this stimulating debate I urge you to copy and paste the above five words, with added invective if deemed necessary. In this way progress will be made. |
10th November 2018, 09:55 AM | #137 |
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Does this mean you retract the claim that I accused you of being racist? I have understood what you've said, that I disagree doesn't change that. The fact that your argument can be boiled down to 'I refuse to discuss this and anyone who claims to want to discuss this is lying' doesn't change that. It's a sad fact that Tank has added more to this discussion than you have. |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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10th November 2018, 10:00 AM | #138 |
... and your little dog too.
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10th November 2018, 10:02 AM | #139 |
... and your little dog too.
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10th November 2018, 10:05 AM | #140 |
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10th November 2018, 10:12 AM | #141 |
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That's not the claim I made. I stand by the claim I made.
Well, if you understand what I said then the only option here is that you're deliberately arguing a straw man. Oh my sides! That's a joke, right? No, I actually agree with what you said, I mean the joke in you referring to a situation that perfectly illustrates my argument in order to back up your own. ST offers several on-topic posts and immediately he is effectively accused of supporting murder ("And your language about an "invasion" and "invaders" eerily echoes that of an individual who only days ago murdered several innocent people"). And this is the level of discussion you advocate. You haven't called me a racist, that's true, but you desperately want me to do anything other than vehemently condemn this King character so that situation may be remedied. |
10th November 2018, 10:13 AM | #142 |
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10th November 2018, 10:18 AM | #143 |
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But you did... "...positively useless for propagating a logical argument that might change people's minds."
I don't believe in that. I believe in that you try to treat all person as follow: "The inherent worth and dignity of every person". You can't use logic on that. Either you believe in it or not. |
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I don't believe in God and all the rest outside of methodological naturalism But I am a cognitive and ethical relativist/subjectivist and skeptic. #JeSuisAhmed |
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10th November 2018, 10:35 AM | #144 |
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While I don't share your concerns, I do think you make some good points along the way. Perhaps posting in this thread wasn't a great idea to begin with, when you distrust the motives and don't really wish to engage with the thread as defined by the OP.
As for your points above... When I try to think of ways to sway Steve King and Jared Taylor (or whatever racist nutbag) rationally, I come up empty. They've heard it all. They've rejected it all. |
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10th November 2018, 10:42 AM | #145 |
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True, but in 12 years I can't recall posting in a thread and thinking it was a great idea
I'm not sure about that. I'd not heard of Jared Taylor three months ago but I listened to a number of his lectures and interviews and found myself cringing at the inanity of the challenges put to him. Couple that with the fact he's actually intelligent and confident and is it any wonder people watch his videos and say hey, maybe there's something in what this guy says? I'm not saying I would come up on top in a debate but I'd sure give him a harder time than anybody else I've heard try. |
10th November 2018, 10:48 AM | #146 |
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Oh, yes it is a claim you made.
Quote:
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This is no different than arguing against AGW because the harms it causes are too great. It's like a twisted Appeal to Consequences. 'If supporting racism can predictably lead to justifying murder, then you can't call out supporting racism.'
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I want you to take the discussion seriously. The meta discussion discussion is a tired handwave that I no longer let lie. |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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10th November 2018, 11:09 AM | #147 |
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100%. If you don't know enough about a person (or subject) to debate about them (or it), then don't join the discussion.
This reminds me of that old saying... "It is better to keep your mouth shut and have everyone think you're ignorant, than to open it and remove any doubt". |
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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10th November 2018, 11:41 AM | #148 |
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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10th November 2018, 11:53 AM | #149 |
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Where did I label you? I did call you out for attacking King's critics. The quoted exchange certainly looks like a defence of King. If you are being pedantic, it is actually attacking criticism of him - which as I said before is a distinction without a difference, and as I said below is also an inane defence in the specific case of King. ETA: and for the hard of thinking, I called you out, not for ignorance of King's views but for proclaiming criticism of him as invalid whilst yourself being ignorant of his views I since learned that you haven't actually looked into what King has said, so that renders your reflexive defence of him (seemingly merely because he'd been called a racist) even more inane.
Since then you have subsequently said that you don't know King's views. That really is worth calling out on. You don't get a free pass to defend someone you have no knowledge about. If I said that Ion Antonescu was a genocidal fascist, you can't assume that is hyperbole Or this - with the highlighted part. |
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OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
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10th November 2018, 12:05 PM | #150 |
... and your little dog too.
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10th November 2018, 12:10 PM | #151 |
... and your little dog too.
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10th November 2018, 12:16 PM | #152 |
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Right wingers have been forced to train up a sharp reactionary reflex that is triggered in almost every thread. It's really the only way to face the constant barrage of stupidities and atrocities their fellow right wingers bestow on the world without having to consider the idea that maybe their ideology is bad.
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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10th November 2018, 12:21 PM | #153 |
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I've ranted before about how the primary reason (out of many) that argumentatives on the internet are all functionally broken is that at some point the official state sponsored religion of the internet became pedantics, with language pedantics the largest denomination, and "Pretending I simply just can't understand what people are saying as a delaying and stalling tactic" becoming Sunday Mass.
One shouldn't be treated like the bum in town square yelling at pigeons for saying "You know it used to be people could get together and have a conversation without pretending we had to stop and rebuild the entire language from scratch." But no, I'm crazy Ralph from the Friday the 13th movies: *As I'm lead back to the home* "No I'm serious. We used to go into discussions already agreed on the language and actually talked about the thing we were talking about, not about the discussion about the thing we were talking about." "Sure Grandpa, whatever you say." *Twirls finger next to head.* |
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"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
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10th November 2018, 12:26 PM | #154 |
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BTW not for nothing but this embedded meta-thread is about 5 times longer than Steve King's Wikipedia page.
Anyone here could have read Steve King's Wikipedia Page for context, his official US House page, a good half dozen articles about him from all sides to form an opinion, and a Stephen King the horror writer short story to cleanse your pallet in the time they've been complaining about people not spoon feeding them context they already know. |
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"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
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10th November 2018, 01:21 PM | #155 |
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10th November 2018, 02:28 PM | #156 |
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Okay, just for the sake of discussion, I will attemp to defend King.
Is it possible that his racist views do not affect his service in the legislature? In his case my guess is no, his official actions and words speak loudly against that, but could one elect a racist if they were confident that the racism stayed away from official acts? There are plenty of devoutly religious people in government who don’t let their sincere beliefs interfere with their work. |
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'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard |
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10th November 2018, 03:36 PM | #157 |
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10th November 2018, 04:44 PM | #158 |
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That's because the idea of a plot to genocide all white people on Earth is so ridiculous that it is both unnecessary and self-defeating to waste time treating it as a valid "view".
If a man is standing on top of a four-story platform proclaiming that he can jump off and fly away like a bird, you don't sit there and say "well let's hear this fellow out and give his worldview fair and earnest consideration, and challenge it with a healthy academic debate if we disagree"; you send police or paramedics up there to tackle him and bring him down to the ground, sedated for transport if necessary. |
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10th November 2018, 06:02 PM | #159 |
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My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie. |
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10th November 2018, 06:59 PM | #160 |
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