|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
10th November 2018, 07:15 PM | #161 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
|
10th November 2018, 08:42 PM | #162 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
|
I don't see any reason why the OP question can't be taken as an open invitation to do just that. I must have missed any attempt to do that.
There is a very valid reason to "label" King as a white nationalist: As a legislator in a position to influence public policy, we should expect that he will advance and favor white nationalist policies. Other than the Trumpian "he won" defense, and even getting away from personalities, do you have a logical argument to support advancing the white nationalist policy agenda? |
11th November 2018, 05:10 AM | #163 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
Thanks to Stacko:
King has called immigrants "dirt" when he thought he was only with a sympathetic audience, and then lied about it when challenged by the Weekly Standard. It wasn't much of a stretch prediction by me - hence my use of the word "probably". The far-right are well aware that their views are considered repugnant (repubgnant?) but are extremists because they have a lot of hate, so do often say worse in what they think is private. |
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
11th November 2018, 06:59 AM | #164 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 9,800
|
No we didn't. We might remember some good conversations where progress was had (and I've had some in the internet era, too) but mainly, 'twas ever thus.
If we're reminiscing like old farts, the change I miss are the bull sessions over beer. It's not the same when there's always some guy with his phone out to look stuff up on wikipedia or tvtropes. |
11th November 2018, 07:29 AM | #165 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
|
It depends. I think of "pedantry" as pointless attention to semantic accuracy, just for its own sake or as a way of bragging about ones knowledge, or sometimes apparently to deflect from an uncomfortable issue. That kind of stuff is easy enough to spot. On the other hand, there's a very good reason why "formal" debates require debaters to define their terms: to avoid wasting time talking past each other. Perhaps some of those times people disagreed with you, it was because they were just thinking in different terms, and maybe there were times you thought people were agreeing with you, but they didn't really understand what you meant.
ETA: In that spirit, my own short definition of racism is any discriminatory behavior that results from race-based chauvinism and xenophobia. It's hard to know what people think, but it's easy to see how they behave. |
11th November 2018, 07:40 AM | #166 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
And see this is what I'm talking about.
"Hey how about we actually talk about the topic and not about the discussion" is now somehow a controversial statement because: A) The popular opinion is there is no difference between the topic and the discussion, that the meta is the thing and vice versa B) The simple idea that just having a discussion without prep work is insane to even suggest or an unreasonable expectation. C) That two people speaking the same language just yelling "I don't know what you are saying" at each other back and forth is a meaningful discussion. The idea that so many people think that internet style dueling pedantics either was, is, or should become the "norm" way for humans to interact scares the balls off of me. Okay I'd buy that if a demand to "Let's stop and make the language clearer before we continue" ever actually resulted in the stated goal. Most of the the time a demand to "make the language clearer" is a Jabbian attempt to force the discussion into a framework where the side demanding clarity has already won before the discussion is started. Most of the rest of the time it's delaying and stalling tactic. I can count on one hand of a bad shop teacher the number times a demand for "clarity" ever actually lead to "Oh I understand now, we can continue the discussion." |
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
11th November 2018, 08:10 AM | #167 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 9,800
|
And all of that has always been the case. This isn't a decadent crumbling of modern society, it's basic human nature you're trying to fight. What makes you think it was different before the internet? You think there weren't pedantic jackasses who'd use encyclopedias the way they use wiki links today? You think people didn't whip out dictionaries like they do dictionary.com?
|
11th November 2018, 08:11 AM | #168 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
|
|
11th November 2018, 08:21 AM | #169 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
Well that's sort of my point though. Clarity is a two way street.
Yeah we could argue that not everybody is using the same definition of racism and this is causing issues in this thread. And yes that's "technically true." And I would counter that racism didn't used to have multiple definitions we had to suss out before we could get the party started. Words having nuance and a variation of exact meanings depending on the exact context and "level" for lack of a better term the discussion is taking place at has always been a thing. Everybody acting like Picard in that one episode of Star Trek where he's talking to the alien that can only speak in metaphors is new. |
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
11th November 2018, 08:25 AM | #170 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
Because I'm fairly certain at some point in the grand scope of human history we've actually had a discussion that actually went somewhere.
Like I said show me the last discussion on this board that went more than a page and involved an actual meaty topic that didn't devolve into pedantic quibbling and then just putter out. Maybe you're correct and the pedantics have always been there. The difference is a conversation used to be able to go to pedantics and come back out because the pedants where edge cases that only had to be tokenly acknowledged, they weren't the conductors running the orchestra. |
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
11th November 2018, 09:00 AM | #171 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
|
Well, yes, and I still find that's easier to do at the bar with two or three friends than on the internet. I try to ignore people who don't really want the discussion to "go somewhere" (okay, sometimes I can't resist a poke), and I try instead to engage with people who at least are trying to explain their positions. If I don't think one or the other of us (or some third party) might at least gain some perspective on an issue, whether or not we "resolve" anything, I don't waste my time.
|
11th November 2018, 09:19 AM | #172 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,328
|
Can a racist be a fair legislator?
Can those feelings be put aside in the interest of the constituency? At what point does the vehemence of racism preclude the benefit of the doubt? |
__________________
'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard |
|
11th November 2018, 09:37 AM | #173 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
|
|
11th November 2018, 10:01 AM | #174 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,328
|
|
__________________
'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard |
|
11th November 2018, 10:17 AM | #175 |
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
|
|
11th November 2018, 10:18 AM | #176 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
I never doubted that, baron
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
11th November 2018, 10:25 AM | #177 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,778
|
Thankfully, Republicans aren't "everyone". Well, what are we supposed to make of a person that instinctively throws up their shield to defend someone against accusations of racism, without caring if the person they are defending is actually a racist or not? Almost as if racism itself is the thing you're defending by acting as if all accusations of such are ridiculous. Seems understandable that one might question the motivation of such a wilfully ignorant and persistent defense. |
11th November 2018, 11:02 AM | #178 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
QFT
Have you considered that the reason nobody can understand what you are saying is because you are being incoherent? I have no idea whether you think that Steve King's racism is a good thing or a bad thing. I have no idea what your point is - except possibly that some people might be unfairly accused of racism. However in this case, that hasn't happened. Maybe you think that some racists have good policies on (say) immigration, but because the proponents are fairly labelled as racist, people dismiss their policies. Maybe you don't? Who knows? From the evidence I can see, nobody in this thread does. |
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
11th November 2018, 11:16 AM | #179 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
|
Yes, that's why my definition of racism is discriminatory behavior caused by certain beliefs. Some racists don't mind telling you exactly what those beliefs are, but sometimes we accuse people of being racists based on behavior that appears to have those same motivations, even though we don't really know what's going on in their heads. The defense against those accusations, however, is to give a credible non-racist explanation for the behavior. And of course, if racist beliefs don't actually result in racist behavior, we'd never know about them.
|
11th November 2018, 11:32 AM | #180 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
|
|
11th November 2018, 12:21 PM | #181 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,328
|
|
__________________
'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard |
|
11th November 2018, 12:28 PM | #182 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
If I am an elected "Representative" of a constituency, and hold a belief that some of my constituents (who are citizens) are "dirt" or probably criminals, then I can't represent them fairly. Likewise, if I am involved in the justice system and make my prejudices (indeed prejudicial biases) public I can't be seen to be impartial.
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
11th November 2018, 12:29 PM | #183 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,819
|
Why should immigration from ******** nations be restricted? Because ******** nations are ******** nations because the people there make them that way. Bring enough people from ******** nations into your nation and it will turn into a ******** nation.
If you want to improve the quality of life for people in ******** nations, you provide resources to help them in place. Bringing the best and the brightest from ******** nations into your country improves their lives but deprives the ******** nations of the people who can actually make a difference. |
11th November 2018, 12:35 PM | #184 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
|
|
11th November 2018, 12:49 PM | #185 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
Has if occurred to you that s-hole nations are s-hole nations not because they have s-hole people but s-hole people in charge? The people have little power over corrupt governments that control the military and imprison or murder those who attempt to change those s-hole people in charge. Haiti is a classic example.
Do you think Trump gives a s*** about improving lives in those s-hole countries by sending them aid or doing jack else to help them? Hell no. Remember, he's "USA First" and screw everybody else. Get real. |
11th November 2018, 12:58 PM | #186 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,423
|
Seems the answer to the question why almost nobody from the right is calling out Steve King's racism is because they agree with his racism. At least if Baron and CaptainHowdy are representative of right wing thought.
|
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
|
11th November 2018, 01:39 PM | #187 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,511
|
It generally results in remittances sent directly to citizens of their country of origin, as opposed to foreign aid that is ripped off by corrupt governments. So it can make a difference in those countries.
I also think the U.S. benefits from these exchanges in several ways. |
11th November 2018, 03:17 PM | #188 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,328
|
|
__________________
'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard |
|
11th November 2018, 03:52 PM | #189 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,530
|
If bandying about stereotypes is a way to make a point...
What do the white trailer park trash knuckledraggers do to contributing to the S-hole status of the US? The nation would make a bloody good bargain if a one-for-one trade was made by shipping that lot to any one of the so-called "S-hole" countries in exchange for the same number of their citizens who *want* to emigrate. I guarantee you that. But white racists consider even the lowest, meanest and dumbest of their kind to be superior to the best of the non-whites. As noted already, those supposedly "S-hole" countries are in poorer straights because of economic history and poor management. And even then there's a tendency to exaggerate in the minds of the ignorant. For instance, as I understand it, the education level of the average Nigerian immigrant bests that of the average home-sprouted USAian. |
11th November 2018, 04:14 PM | #190 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 9,800
|
Do you mean USA politics, or the ISF in general? There's been a lot of good threads on the science board that have changed my outlook on topics, sometimes in fairly dramatic ways. In USA politics, I fondly remember the Objectivism threads we had with Dinwar a couple of years ago. Those were also mostly pedantic quibbling, but about something that everyone involved cared about, pedantry or no.
Actually, a thought occurs to me. You're making the Democrat mistake of defending the means and assuming the ends will follow. It seems to me you should be less concerned with the form our arguments here take, and more concerned with how many of them are just people feeding trolls. It doesn't matter how pedantic people get as long as they care enough to wrestle to a conclusion. Nor does it matter how eloquent a troll or partisan hack can be, the discussion won't ever be productive because that's not why the troll/hack is in it. |
11th November 2018, 05:24 PM | #191 |
High Priest of Ed
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,871
|
|
__________________
Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda |
|
11th November 2018, 05:59 PM | #192 |
... and your little dog too.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,361
|
|
11th November 2018, 06:47 PM | #193 |
High Priest of Ed
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,871
|
|
__________________
Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda |
|
11th November 2018, 07:33 PM | #194 |
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 11,360
|
I reject the whole “crappy” nation idea. I think they are nations with crappy leaders. America can benefit from the good people from them that want to come here. I think we should prioritize those people and limit other people. If you are smart, ambitious and want to contribute here, then I welcome you no matter where you come from or what color your skin is.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
__________________
Hello. |
|
11th November 2018, 07:42 PM | #195 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
|
|
11th November 2018, 08:22 PM | #196 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 7,051
|
When you're talking about defending Steve King, are talking about the books or the movies?*
*with apologies to Joe Morque, of course. |
11th November 2018, 08:27 PM | #197 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 21,398
|
|
__________________
Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
|
12th November 2018, 02:49 AM | #198 |
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
|
|
12th November 2018, 04:46 AM | #199 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
|
|
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
12th November 2018, 08:02 AM | #200 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
|
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|