IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Iowa politics , racism charges , racism issues , republicans , Steve King , white nationalism , white nationalists

Reply
Old 12th November 2018, 11:05 PM   #241
Cl1mh4224rd
Philosopher
 
Cl1mh4224rd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,778
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I don't know much about him and am not aware of what he's done or said that is supposed to be condemned. (Haven't followed much of the thread and haven't seen any quotes).

It's amazing to me that so many right-wingers are so incredibly ignorant of this topic, yet pretend to be politically enlightened.

It's like blatant racism and white supremacy don't even register for them.

Last edited by Cl1mh4224rd; 12th November 2018 at 11:07 PM.
Cl1mh4224rd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2018, 11:33 PM   #242
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 20,571
Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
It's amazing to me that so many right-wingers are so incredibly ignorant of this topic, yet pretend to be politically enlightened.
No kidding, I thought Steve King was some guy from Long Island. Googling it I see that is Peter King. Definitely some of the quotes provided by Jimbob seem, while not exactly racist (Mexicans are not a race), certainly bigoted.

So what's next? Ritual condemnation as the OP implies is needed?
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

Last edited by Brainster; 12th November 2018 at 11:39 PM.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2018, 11:50 PM   #243
Cl1mh4224rd
Philosopher
 
Cl1mh4224rd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,778
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
So what's next? Ritual condemnation as the OP implies is needed?

The OP implied no such thing.

I do believe the original question has been answered adequately, however. Yes, there are indeed people on this very forum willing to defend Steve King.
Cl1mh4224rd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2018, 11:51 PM   #244
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 22,558
Ignoring might have been enough instead of actively campaigning and voting for him.
__________________
“Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.”
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 02:03 AM   #245
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,423
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
No kidding, I thought Steve King was some guy from Long Island. Googling it I see that is Peter King. Definitely some of the quotes provided by Jimbob seem, while not exactly racist (Mexicans are not a race), certainly bigoted.

So what's next? Ritual condemnation as the OP implies is needed?
Yes, condemnation of this racist GOP congressman would be nice. Is it really that hard? One would have thought it wouldn't even be necessary to ask for it, but apparently it is.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 04:21 AM   #246
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Yes, condemnation of this racist GOP congressman would be nice. Is it really that hard? One would have thought it wouldn't even be necessary to ask for it, but apparently it is.
Look the only area the GOP lets people make a moral stand is how strongly to attack the gays. You are permitted to serve them at your business if you so choose though of course are encouraged not to.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 05:27 AM   #247
WilliamSeger
Philosopher
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
No kidding, I thought Steve King was some guy from Long Island. Googling it I see that is Peter King. Definitely some of the quotes provided by Jimbob seem, while not exactly racist (Mexicans are not a race), certainly bigoted.

So what's next? Ritual condemnation as the OP implies is needed?
The OP doesn't imply that, and if your conscience doesn't either, then of course you can express your indifference with ritual silence.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 05:28 AM   #248
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
No kidding, I thought Steve King was some guy from Long Island. Googling it I see that is Peter King. Definitely some of the quotes provided by Jimbob seem, while not exactly racist (Mexicans are not a race), certainly bigoted.

So what's next? Ritual condemnation as the OP implies is needed?
Let's not kid ourselves here. To King, they look different and speak funny. Plus a great deal of their collective genetic inheritance is Native American.
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 05:54 AM   #249
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Let's not kid ourselves here. To King, they look different and speak funny. Plus a great deal of their collective genetic inheritance is Native American.
Yes and the liking for the Confederate flag in a Unionist state is supporting evidence.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 05:58 AM   #250
WilliamSeger
Philosopher
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Let's not kid ourselves here. To King, they look different and speak funny. Plus a great deal of their collective genetic inheritance is Native American.
That's about all that "race" really means, anyway, and it doesn't matter to a racist how anthropologists or biologists do or don't define the term.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 06:12 AM   #251
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 9,800
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
That's about all that "race" really means, anyway, and it doesn't matter to a racist how anthropologists or biologists do or don't define the term.
Speaking funny is also an important out-group signifier. Shibboleth jokes are very common theme among racists.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 06:44 AM   #252
WilliamSeger
Philosopher
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Speaking funny is also an important out-group signifier. Shibboleth jokes are very common theme among racists.
Where I worked, I knew one manager who didn't seem to be at all racist when dealing with any coworkers, but one day over lunch, he started mocking a young man he had just interviewed for talking like he had been raised in "the hood," and he really got carried away with the stereotyping. The kid probably had been raised in the inner-city, but he also had just graduated with a computer science degree from a good school. He didn't get the job, and I'm quite sure he had a similar experience elsewhere. For some, I think it might be more of a cultural thing rather than strictly racial: Blacks who have fully assimilated the white culture are okay. But still, it's a matter of thinking black culture is inferior and dangerous, so it's the same thing -- discrimination -- in a different form.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 06:48 AM   #253
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Where I worked, I knew one manager who didn't seem to be at all racist when dealing with any coworkers, but one day over lunch, he started mocking a young man he had just interviewed for talking like he had been raised in "the hood," and he really got carried away with the stereotyping. The kid probably had been raised in the inner-city, but he also had just graduated with a computer science degree from a good school. He didn't get the job, and I'm quite sure he had a similar experience elsewhere. For some, I think it might be more of a cultural thing rather than strictly racial: Blacks who have fully assimilated the white culture are okay. But still, it's a matter of thinking black culture is inferior and dangerous, so it's the same thing -- discrimination -- in a different form.
I'm from the South, the deep South. I have family members that were "Everything short of cooking and eating a black guy for Thanksgiving Dinner" level of racist on every practical level

But the weird thing is Hollywood Racism, that open, proud, unapologetic racism is pretty much non-existent. It's always, always that one step removed, "Oh I have no problem with black people just... those kind of black people" type of stuff.
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 06:51 AM   #254
Stacko
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,837
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm from the South, the deep South. I have family members that were "Everything short of cooking and eating a black guy for Thanksgiving Dinner" level of racist on every practical level

But the weird thing is Hollywood Racism, that open, proud, unapologetic racism is pretty much non-existent. It's always, always that one step removed, "Oh I have no problem with black people just... those kind of black people" type of stuff.
I believe they've coded it as, "it's not the race; it's the culture." The fact that the "cultures" they seem to have problems with aren't white is just a coincidence.
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 06:56 AM   #255
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
I believe they've coded it as, "it's not the race; it's the culture." The fact that the "cultures" they seem to have problems with aren't white is just a coincidence.

How Half of America Lost it's Mind: http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reason...e-talks-about/

Quote:
But what I can say, from personal experience, is that the racism of my youth was always one step removed. I never saw a family member, friend, or classmate be mean to the actual black people we had in town. We worked with them, played video games with them, waved to them when they passed. What I did hear was several million comments about how if you ever ventured into the city, winding up in the "wrong neighborhood" meant you'd get dragged from your car, raped, and burned alive. Looking back, I think the idea was that the local minorities were fine ... as long as they acted exactly like us.

If you'd asked me at the time, I'd have said the fear and hatred wasn't of people with brown skin, but of that specific tribe they have in Chicago -- you know, the guys with the weird slang, music and clothes, the dope fiends who murder everyone they see. It was all part of the bizarro nature of the cities, as perceived from afar -- a combination of hyper-aggressive savages and frivolous white elites. Their ways are strange. And it wasn't like pop culture was trying to talk me out of it.
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 07:03 AM   #256
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
I believe they've coded it as, "it's not the race; it's the culture." The fact that the "cultures" they seem to have problems with aren't white is just a coincidence.
If a person has problems with cultures across the board, is that acceptable?
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 07:09 AM   #257
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,987
Originally Posted by baron View Post
If a person has problems with cultures across the board, is that acceptable?
The issue being talked about was when "culture" is being used as a substitute for the word "race" because the person using it knows racism is frowned upon. Not when the word culture is being used to mean culture.

For instance for some people when they talk about "gang culture" they will be talking about the social cues, the reinforced behaviour of and interactions normalised by a self identified group and so on. Other people will use it to mean "black" people.
__________________
If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 07:16 AM   #258
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
Originally Posted by baron View Post
If a person has problems with cultures across the board, is that acceptable?
No you don't get to hide your racism behind euphemisms.

The "Oh I don't hate black people, I just hate ghetto people/gang bangers/welfare cheats/whatever" is pretty transparent.

Again I'm from the South. I know plenty of Meth headed "Let me tell you what y'all I'm saying" Rednecks that swore up and down they "didn't hate black people, just the ones that did drugs and talk funny" and here's the thing... they believed it.
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 07:21 AM   #259
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The issue being talked about was when "culture" is being used as a substitute for the word "race" because the person using it knows racism is frowned upon. Not when the word culture is being used to mean culture.

For instance for some people when they talk about "gang culture" they will be talking about the social cues, the reinforced behaviour of and interactions normalised by a self identified group and so on. Other people will use it to mean "black" people.
What happens when certain cultures are predominantly associated with certain races, or ethnicities? Anybody who has read my posts will know I despise traveller culture and, like it or not, these travellers are almost exclusively white Irish. I am also of the opinion that the majority of murders in London are down to gang culture, specifically black gang culture. Chav culture, white English by definition, is also deplorable, if only for the fact of its utter futility and worthlessness as opposed to hard-core violence. I can say all these things but only one of them provokes instant calls of 'racist'; one of them results in frowns and grumblings and one of them normally elicits nods of agreement. And in case I'm seen to be going OT, my point is that the people who genuinely do criticise culture, but who also admit at that some cultures propagate mainly via certain ethnicities, are lumped in with the people who simply hate certain races but don't have the balls to come out and say it.

Last edited by baron; 13th November 2018 at 07:25 AM.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 07:25 AM   #260
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No you don't get to hide your racism behind euphemisms.
Don't presume I have any interest in hiding anything from you, or justifying anything to you. I'd have to care in order to do that.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again I'm from the South. I know plenty of Meth headed "Let me tell you what y'all I'm saying" Rednecks that swore up and down they "didn't hate black people, just the ones that did drugs and talk funny" and here's the thing... they believed it.
Well, I don't have any meth-head friends. I guess I move in different social circles.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 07:31 AM   #261
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
"I'm not racist, I just always find myself arguing on their side by some amazing coincidence" it is then.
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 07:32 AM   #262
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
Originally Posted by baron View Post
What happens when certain cultures are predominantly associated with certain races, or ethnicities? Anybody who has read my posts will know I despise traveller culture and, like it or not, these travellers are almost exclusively white Irish. I am also of the opinion that the majority of murders in London are down to gang culture, specifically black gang culture. Chav culture, white English by definition, is also deplorable, if only for the fact of its utter futility and worthlessness as opposed to hard-core violence. I can say all these things but only one of them provokes instant calls of 'racist'; one of them results in frowns and grumblings and one of them normally elicits nods of agreement. And in case I'm seen to be going OT, my point is that the people who genuinely do criticise culture, but who also admit at that some cultures propagate mainly via certain ethnicities, are lumped in with the people who simply hate certain races but don't have the balls to come out and say it.
You've strayed off the point. We are speaking of an Iowa congressman, and his opinion of Mexicans.
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 07:33 AM   #263
WilliamSeger
Philosopher
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
Originally Posted by baron View Post
What happens when certain cultures are predominantly associated with certain races, or ethnicities? Anybody who has read my posts will know I despise traveller culture and, like it or not, these travellers are almost exclusively white Irish. I am also of the opinion that the majority of murders in London are down to gang culture, specifically black gang culture. Chav culture, white English by definition, is also deplorable, if only for the fact of its utter futility and worthlessness as opposed to hard-core violence. I can say all these things but only one of them provokes instant calls of 'racist'; one of them results in frowns and grumblings and one of them normally elicits nods of agreement. And in case I'm seen to be going OT, my point is that the people who genuinely do criticise culture, but who also admit at that some cultures propagate mainly via certain ethnicities, are lumped in with the people who simply hate certain races but don't have the balls to come out and say it.
I dunno, which of those cultures do you consider stereotypical for an ethnicity?
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 07:52 AM   #264
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,987
Originally Posted by baron View Post
What happens when certain cultures are predominantly associated with certain races, or ethnicities? Anybody who has read my posts will know I despise traveller culture and, like it or not, these travellers are almost exclusively white Irish. I am also of the opinion that the majority of murders in London are down to gang culture, specifically black gang culture. Chav culture, white English by definition, is also deplorable, if only for the fact of its utter futility and worthlessness as opposed to hard-core violence. I can say all these things but only one of them provokes instant calls of 'racist'; one of them results in frowns and grumblings and one of them normally elicits nods of agreement. And in case I'm seen to be going OT, my point is that the people who genuinely do criticise culture, but who also admit at that some cultures propagate mainly via certain ethnicities, are lumped in with the people who simply hate certain races but don't have the balls to come out and say it.
Not sure what was confusing about what I said - if you are meaning to use the word culture as its actual meaning there is nothing unacceptable to talk about cultures. If you are using it to in your mind (3rd person you not you) simply try to avoid making it 100% apparent you are being a racist then it is not acceptable.

We've been at this language malarky for quite some time now as a species so I find it quite strange that people struggle to understand that sometimes a word or phrase is used as a substitute to using another one because of social norms and manners. For instance "Fred passed away" instead of "Fred died" or "What can you expect from someone in Fred's culture?" instead of "What can you expect from a black person".
__________________
If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 08:18 AM   #265
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 24,384
Originally Posted by baron View Post
What happens when certain cultures are predominantly associated with certain races, or ethnicities? Anybody who has read my posts will know I despise traveller culture and, like it or not, these travellers are almost exclusively white Irish. I am also of the opinion that the majority of murders in London are down to gang culture, specifically black gang culture. Chav culture, white English by definition, is also deplorable, if only for the fact of its utter futility and worthlessness as opposed to hard-core violence. I can say all these things but only one of them provokes instant calls of 'racist'; one of them results in frowns and grumblings and one of them normally elicits nods of agreement. And in case I'm seen to be going OT, my point is that the people who genuinely do criticise culture, but who also admit at that some cultures propagate mainly via certain ethnicities, are lumped in with the people who simply hate certain races but don't have the balls to come out and say it.
Just as an example, those who bring up the high crime rates among people of Hispanic descent in the United States while lamenting some theoretical crime wave from "refugees" might not have the balls to say that they are being racist.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 08:50 AM   #266
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
You've strayed off the point. We are speaking of an Iowa congressman, and his opinion of Mexicans.
It is relevant whether he is criticising a whole people or certain cultures.

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
I dunno, which of those cultures do you consider stereotypical for an ethnicity?
None.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not sure what was confusing about what I said - if you are meaning to use the word culture as its actual meaning there is nothing unacceptable to talk about cultures. If you are using it to in your mind (3rd person you not you) simply try to avoid making it 100% apparent you are being a racist then it is not acceptable.
My point is how do you know which viewpoint is being communicated. Joe Morque illustrates this very well:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"I'm not racist, I just always find myself arguing on their side by some amazing coincidence" it is then.
He has made the decision that I am a racist on the strength of me talking about culture. Now I couldn't care less about his opinion of me, rather I'm asking what criteria must exist for a person not to be dismissed as racist when talking of cultures that may well be predominant within specific ethnicities.

Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Just as an example, those who bring up the high crime rates among people of Hispanic descent in the United States while lamenting some theoretical crime wave from "refugees" might not have the balls to say that they are being racist.
Would those theoretical people have bigger balls or smaller balls than someone, again a theoretical someone, who passive aggressively makes personal attacks using a slimy selection of weasel words?
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 08:55 AM   #267
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,987
Originally Posted by baron View Post
...snip...
My point is how do you know which viewpoint is being communicated. Joe Morque illustrates this very well:


...snip...
Again like we do with everything else we try and communicate to one another, a mixture of context and everything else we've said. Can't see why it suddenly becomes complicated when it's a concept such as racism.
__________________
If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 09:00 AM   #268
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 24,384
Originally Posted by baron View Post

Would those theoretical people have bigger balls or smaller balls than someone, again a theoretical someone, who passive aggressively makes personal attacks using a slimy selection of weasel words?
Going by the debates, the President swears that he's got the biggest, best parts down there.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 09:20 AM   #269
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,361
The continued self-immolation of conservatives in this thread is fascinating to watch.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 09:20 AM   #270
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
Originally Posted by baron View Post
It is relevant whether he is criticising a whole people or certain cultures.



None.



My point is how do you know which viewpoint is being communicated. Joe Morque illustrates this very well:



He has made the decision that I am a racist on the strength of me talking about culture. Now I couldn't care less about his opinion of me, rather I'm asking what criteria must exist for a person not to be dismissed as racist when talking of cultures that may well be predominant within specific ethnicities.



Would those theoretical people have bigger balls or smaller balls than someone, again a theoretical someone, who passive aggressively makes personal attacks using a slimy selection of weasel words?
He is criticizing citizens of an entire country.
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 09:28 AM   #271
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 22,558
The far right keeps on inventing weasel words in oder to camouflage their racism.
__________________
“Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.”
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 09:39 AM   #272
ahhell
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 6,661
Side note, this thread and the one about antifa =/ democrats have something in common. Folks claiming the other side won't criticize and only defends their worst actors and using forum members as evidence. When if you look, you can pretty easily find reps/cons criticizing King and Dems/libs criticizing antifa.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 09:58 AM   #273
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 21,398
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Side note, this thread and the one about antifa =/ democrats have something in common. Folks claiming the other side won't criticize and only defends their worst actors and using forum members as evidence. When if you look, you can pretty easily find reps/cons criticizing King and Dems/libs criticizing antifa.
Really?

King has just been re-elected to Congress. No one from Antifa is ever even nominated.

What a silly equivalence.

The number of of reps who criticize King is a small minority. The numbers of dems who criticize antifa is, like, all of them who are not in the fringe group.

But keep telling yourself that both sides are equal....
__________________
Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 10:15 AM   #274
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 24,384
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Really?
I realize that ahhell's post was hard to parse, but I re-read it a number of times and found it largely correct. I don't believe that anything in that post says that "both sides are equal." I see ahhell lamenting that forum members often use the worst posters as evidence for the toxicity, while if we look, we we can find examples of critical self-examination on both sides of the political aisle. As they put it: "reps/cons" criticizing King, and "Dems/libs" criticizing antifa.

Maybe have another look, and tell me if I'm reading that wrong.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 10:21 AM   #275
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I realize that ahhell's post was hard to parse, but I re-read it a number of times and found it largely correct. I don't believe that anything in that post says that "both sides are equal." I see ahhell lamenting that forum members often use the worst posters as evidence for the toxicity, while if we look, we we can find examples of critical self-examination on both sides of the political aisle. As they put it: "reps/cons" criticizing King, and "Dems/libs" criticizing antifa.
Of course antifa has been kind of branded as being something other than it was 2 years ago. Then it was peaceful counter protests and videotaping events like like white supremacist marches. But republicans prove just how much better they are at branding and politically correct language that no one will support this activity anymore.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 10:24 AM   #276
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 21,398
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I realize that ahhell's post was hard to parse, but I re-read it a number of times and found it largely correct. I don't believe that anything in that post says that "both sides are equal." I see ahhell lamenting that forum members often use the worst posters as evidence for the toxicity, while if we look, we we can find examples of critical self-examination on both sides of the political aisle. As they put it: "reps/cons" criticizing King, and "Dems/libs" criticizing antifa.

Maybe have another look, and tell me if I'm reading that wrong.
No, it's a lame attempt at false equivalence.

Yes, there are reps who criticize King. Maybe 5% of them do it.
And yes, there are dems who criticize antifa. Like 99% of them.

Don't pretend this is anywhere similar, despite the technically true fact that "there are X who criticize Y" applies to both sides. So it's technically true. So what? It's total nonsense to suggest that you can find a person to criticize King, therefore, it's just like the dems and antifa.
__________________
Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 10:27 AM   #277
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 21,398
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Of course antifa has been kind of branded as being something other than it was 2 years ago. Then it was peaceful counter protests and videotaping events like like white supremacist marches. But republicans prove just how much better they are at branding and politically correct language that no one will support this activity anymore.
Yeah, this came up earlier. I would be very, very concerned if pretty much everyone participating here did not agree 95% with antifa. Considering that the foundation of antifa is to oppose naziism, that's a damn good position to hold.

I don't agree with all of it, for sure, but the premise is exactly correct. Or at least, I'd hope everyone can agree with it.
__________________
Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 10:30 AM   #278
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 17,528
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
No, it's a lame attempt at false equivalence.

Yes, there are reps who criticize King. Maybe 5% of them do it.
And yes, there are dems who criticize antifa. Like 99% of them.

Don't pretend this is anywhere similar, despite the technically true fact that "there are X who criticize Y" applies to both sides. So it's technically true. So what? It's total nonsense to suggest that you can find a person to criticize King, therefore, it's just like the dems and antifa.
Worse than that actually. Not one Dem has been identified as an Antifa supporter in the Dems=Antifa thread, unsubstantiated claims about Berkeley City Council members notwithstanding.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 10:33 AM   #279
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 24,384
I still think that my reading of that post is correct, but the branding point is a good and valid one. What's that thing - the Overton window? Am I a victim of the framing of this conversation?
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2018, 10:59 AM   #280
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 21,398
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I still think that my reading of that post is correct, but the branding point is a good and valid one. What's that thing - the Overton window? Am I a victim of the framing of this conversation?
You are too generous, to a fault.

But no, this is similar to the "all politicians lie" defense of Trump's lies. That it's true that all politicians lie to some respect, that doesn't mean that there is anything in common between what Trump is doing and other politicians.
__________________
Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:53 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.