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2nd September 2019, 01:49 PM | #41 |
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Look, it's simple: what she said is factual. All you're doing here is trying to find ways to dismiss her and / or what she said.
I was wondering if you were going to respond to that and while your response is, to me, earnest, I found the demand for evidence to be rather disingenuous in the first place due to the absurd specificity of the kind and amount of evidence 'necessary' to support your claim. |
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2nd September 2019, 02:03 PM | #42 |
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Thanks. I had to wait a few days to respond because I was given a little "vacation" from the board.
And I hate to come off like Trump and say "Heh Heh, I was just joking" but the initial post I made: ...is pretty clearly meant as a joke. On the other hand, I think it's accurate, too, and will stick by my words. |
2nd September 2019, 02:07 PM | #43 |
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2nd September 2019, 05:00 PM | #44 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Norseman, anyone reading what BTC wrote and what I wrote can see there were no "logical fallacies" on my part. BTC is pulling his usual bobbing routine. Don't go down the rabbit hole with him is my best advice. Few come out alive.
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2nd September 2019, 06:58 PM | #45 |
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Not in context it can't!
A logical fallacy is a false statement that weakens an argument by distorting an issue. A false statement cannot also be a factual statement in context - the two are mutually exclusive. Logical fallacies are errors in reasoning, not simple factual errors. Err, no - it isn't. You need to go learn what a logical fallacy is. The definition of such is very specific. |
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2nd September 2019, 07:04 PM | #46 |
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I didn't invent this
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Quote:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Quote:
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2nd September 2019, 07:28 PM | #47 |
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Allow me to help you understand where you went wrong. Note the highlighted portion. She wasn't attempting to discredit a postion. Here, let me help you read it again: Note that no attempt at discrediting the claim was attempted, ergo, it is not a logical fallacy. Sometimes an accusation of hypocrisy is simply an accusation of a hypocrisy, not some fallacy masquerading as a logical argument. You're Welcome! |
2nd September 2019, 07:35 PM | #48 |
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2nd September 2019, 08:04 PM | #49 |
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My bad. I got the impression you were accusing Stacyhs of whataboutism in this post of yours:
Note the potentially ambiguous reference to "Her reply". I will admit I didn't carefully review previous posts to tie down the reference. Perhaps we should both be more careful? |
2nd September 2019, 09:28 PM | #50 |
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Yes, I think it's accurate enough for the context of the discussion and it was pointless nitpicking to demand evidence in the first place.
Yes, politicians lie (and why people continue to think that the system itself is okay but needs only a little changes here or there is strange in my mind) but tRump et al are taking it to a new extreme. Or rather, 'new' in the sense of this and the previous generation or two. Whatever is going on now, at the very least, is not normal. End of. I think we crossed our references to which 'she' we were discussing. The accusation of multiple fallacies was directed not at you but Ilhan Omar. But, you still give good advice which, after this post, I'll follow. He never claimed that you claimed that all accusations of hypocrisy is [sic] a fallacy, either. Once more: if you agree then that not all accusations of hypocrisy are fallacies, it's simple. This is one of those examples of a time when a statement of hypocrisy is not a fallacy. |
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3rd September 2019, 06:15 AM | #51 |
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3rd September 2019, 09:38 AM | #52 |
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Ilhan Omar's.
Ilhan Omar was not making an argument. Ilhan Omar did not present any premises. Ilhan Omar did not, therefore present any conclusions. She did not make any argument. She only made statements. Thus Ilhan Omar made no fallacies. She made no formal fallacies. No informal fallacies. No semi-fallacies. No hemi-demi-fallacies. No quasi-fallacies. No psudo-fallacies. No faux-fallacies. Not even any theoretical fallacies. None. SHE WAS NOT MAKING AN ARGUMENT. ALL SHE DID WAS MAKE A FEW DECLARATIONS. Verstehen Sie alles? |
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3rd September 2019, 07:17 PM | #53 |
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She used the @ symbol. She was responding to their claims. Rather than defend her position, she accuses them of hypocrisy
And whataboutism does not require further being related to the claim. It is a diversionary tactic (and would make a bad diversion to restate your own behavior again and call attention to it). Rationalwiki again
Quote:
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3rd September 2019, 07:20 PM | #54 |
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You missed the key word in what I said
Here it is; learn its meaning https://www.google.com/search?ei=3x9...4dUDCAs&uact=5 |
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3rd September 2019, 07:26 PM | #55 |
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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3rd September 2019, 07:28 PM | #56 |
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3rd September 2019, 07:53 PM | #57 |
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....except that does not address what I said about YOUR claim, which was... "A factual statement can still be a logical fallacy." ..and I maintain that it cannot so long as the false statement is not in context. In any case, the accusation of hypocrisy in a tu quoque is itself a false statement (or re-statement) of the person's position... so your claim that "a factual statement can still be a logical fallacy" is still wrong on its face. |
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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3rd September 2019, 08:03 PM | #58 |
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3rd September 2019, 08:32 PM | #59 |
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Because an unfounded accusation by "A" of hypocrisy by "B" is itself a false statement.
However, if "B" really is intending to be hypocritical, in which case the statement by "A" is not unfounded, but factual. In that case, the statement is no longer a fallacy, its a fact. This is why context is so important. |
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3rd September 2019, 08:35 PM | #60 |
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3rd September 2019, 08:52 PM | #61 |
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I do.
Eva Kittay, 1982; Bela Szabados and Eldon Soifer, 1998 hold that hypocrisy also requires inauthenticity or the intent to deceive. There doesn't need to be, because this is just plain & simple grade-school understanding of the English language If I accuse you of doing "thing A" and you have not done "thing A", then my accusation is false and any statement I make to that effect is false. |
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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3rd September 2019, 08:57 PM | #62 |
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3rd September 2019, 09:16 PM | #63 |
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No, it doesn't.
The purpose of a tu quoque is to 'discredit the opponent's argument by asserting the opponent's failure to act consistently'. This is not what Omar did. She said:-
Quote:
If Omar was accused of being a child molester or something similar, and objected with 'but you nominated an accused child molester as your Senate candidate' it would be whataboutism. But 'controversial' or supposedly 'anti-Semitic' statements and support of the Palestinian people do not in any way equate to child molestation or other crimes that should be the target of 'cleaning up politics'.
Quote:
The Alabama Republican Party are not acting 'inconsistently' in trying to 'clean up politics', they are not cleaning up at all. They are simply trying to get rid of Omar because she is a Democrat, nothing more. We all know this. And that is not 'cleaning up' politics, it's making it dirtier. The statement "Republicans talk about cleaning up politics, yet they nominated an accused child molester as their Senate candidate!" is pointing out hypocrisy, but it isn't whataboutism. Now you could argue, "But she only made that accusation to counter theirs" and you might even be right. But that would be context. And as we all know, context is irrelevant. |
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3rd September 2019, 09:26 PM | #64 |
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3rd September 2019, 09:40 PM | #65 |
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Oh, for the love of....
I have no idea why the standard usage of the Twitter platform holds so much meaning for you but I guarantee you that it's completely irrelevant.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I don't care about your definitions. I don't care about your paraphrasing. All that's important is that you take Ilhan Omar's words and quote them and then explain in enough detail to point out how what was said was fallacious. First step would be to write out which is her first premise, her second premise, (however many you think she said), and her conclusion. Next, you then point out which premise was a fallacy and how that relates to her conclusion. Then, you can demonstrate how the conclusion is false with other evidence you can obtain. If you're not willing to do such a simple task, then I think it's fair to conclude that you are unable to and your objections here can be safely ignored. |
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3rd September 2019, 09:54 PM | #66 |
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A) I didn't object to anything. I don't object to her use of whataboutism.
B) I'm calling whataboutism a logical fallacy because of its regular appearance on efforts to document logical fallacies. Whataboutism does not follow premise, premise, conclusion. If you feel that is a necessary requirement, I don't care. Call it scootaloo if you want and use find-and-replace when reading my posts. |
3rd September 2019, 10:00 PM | #67 |
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4th September 2019, 08:06 AM | #68 |
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This is literally down to ******* nonsense words that are made up. I don't believe there is another way to degrade a thread anymore.
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4th September 2019, 08:10 AM | #69 |
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4th September 2019, 09:26 AM | #70 |
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"Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales now! More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? |
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4th September 2019, 09:53 AM | #71 |
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4th September 2019, 10:57 AM | #72 |
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4th September 2019, 12:53 PM | #73 |
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Well, looks like another thread successfully bobbed.
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4th September 2019, 01:08 PM | #74 |
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ANother thread Bobbed.
When will people learn the best way to handle trolls is to ignore them? |
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4th September 2019, 01:23 PM | #75 |
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It can be enjoyable to engage from time to time. I get caught up in it sometimes because there are situations where, if nothing else, entertaining conversation with various members can come from it.
That being said, sometimes it's just painful to watch. It's tough to take someone seriously who has previously posted that their ideals and views are nonsensical and that they really only communicate in hypothetical situations. |
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4th September 2019, 02:11 PM | #76 |
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4th September 2019, 02:18 PM | #77 |
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“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss |
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4th September 2019, 03:19 PM | #78 |
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I thought it was obvious why I did it. I only call whataboutism a logical fallacy because it appears on generally accepted lists of logical fallacies. Based on what Norseman wrote about premises and conclusions, whataboutism probably doesn't meet his definition.
But I don't care if it is actually technically a logical fallacy or not. I'm just saying it appears on the generally accepted list. Whether you call that list logical fallacies or that it contains other things besides logical fallacies, if doesn't affect my stance. |
4th September 2019, 04:02 PM | #79 |
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4th September 2019, 04:03 PM | #80 |
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Here is a list of 10 types of internet trolls: https://www.lifewire.com/types-of-in...trolls-3485894
Bob is #2. You will recognize the posting style of a number of other JREF members in the other nine troll types. |
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