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Tags North Carolina incidents , North Carolina politics , republicans

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Old 12th September 2019, 08:12 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Of course had the Democratic lawmakers not gone to the 9/11 memorial, for fear of leaving the Republicans free do do their deeds, then they would have been castigated for being un-American communists and Islamic terrorist enablers and failing to respect the victims of terrorism.

Of course GOPers who are actually failing to respect the victims of terrorism are given a pass for *reasons*
Patriotism is just a Pimp suit the GOP puts on when it’s convenient.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:13 AM   #42
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So from what I am reading out resident conservatives are just with this crap. Got it.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:13 AM   #43
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Remember all these declarations of high value in principles the next time the shoe is on the other foot.

I don't recall too many screaming about gaming the system when state legislators flee to another state to deny a quorum for a vote.

Scummy is as scummy does.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:14 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
How the hell are 'surprise votes' legal? There's no provision for scheduling? Were the Dems notified?

I've seen some of the Republican lawmakers claim that the Democrats were informed of the vote, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was a the level of "It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard'.”
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:19 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
I've seen some of the Republican lawmakers claim that the Democrats were informed of the vote, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was a the level of "It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard'.”
Can't wait till these guys catch up to the Internet Age. Voting via secured connection on a freaking cel phone, or at least afford the Dems the opportunity to electronically have a surprise cancellation of the surprise vote.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:22 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Remember all these declarations of high value in principles the next time the shoe is on the other foot.

I don't recall too many screaming about gaming the system when state legislators flee to another state to deny a quorum for a vote.

Scummy is as scummy does.
Another thing that should be done away with. They are paid to represent, and should be required to be present at all votes, even if abstaining. Barring emergencies and the like, of course.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:26 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
How the hell are 'surprise votes' legal? There's no provision for scheduling? Were the Dems notified?
Yeah, there was a schedule, and the schedule said there were to be no votes. But that's not legally binding or anything, the chair can call votes any time.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:26 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Another thing that should be done away with. They are paid to represent, and should be required to be present at all votes, even if abstaining. Barring emergencies and the like, of course.
I dunno, I can see the reason for having a quorum; voting is not their only duty, and getting everyone together all the time would slow government.

However, I do think veto rules shouldn't be based on percentage present, but either total votes (like theprestige said, 3/5ths of the total) or on quorum (instead of vetoproof, make it so that a larger quorum can over-ride).

Basically, poor rules when a minority can pass something that's veto proof.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:26 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Another thing that should be done away with. They are paid to represent, and should be required to be present at all votes, even if abstaining. Barring emergencies and the like, of course.
Rather than forcing them, you can let their constituents decide if the behavior is acceptable.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:33 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post

I don't recall too many screaming about gaming the system when state legislators flee to another state to deny a quorum for a vote.
Which of these do you think it preferable?
a) make it easy for government to maker new regulations
b) make it harder for government to make new regulations

Filibusters and other measures that can restrict the power of the majority serve an important role in democracy and as an important check on the power of government. I’m not convinced measures that allow a minority to enact laws on it’s own do the same.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:35 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
I dunno, I can see the reason for having a quorum; voting is not their only duty, and getting everyone together all the time would slow government.

However, I do think veto rules shouldn't be based on percentage present, but either total votes (like theprestige said, 3/5ths of the total) or on quorum (instead of vetoproof, make it so that a larger quorum can over-ride).

Basically, poor rules when a minority can pass something that's veto proof.
Yeah, but conceptually, how hard could it be? As legislators, surely voting is in their top three responsibilities? Just a 'hey, guys, voting is on the first Friday of every month (or every Friday or whatever). Bag the photo ops and be at work on that day, in exchange for your paycheck. Remember to shave'

eta: also, yeah, 3/5ths of total representatives, at a bare minimum.
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Last edited by Thermal; 12th September 2019 at 08:39 AM.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:38 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Yeah, there was a schedule, and the schedule said there were to be no votes. But that's not legally binding or anything, the chair can call votes any time.
Filed under 'how the **** can this happen in a first world country?'
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:38 AM   #53
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Ah for the record the NC State Legislature is in session for a whopping... 9 whole days (and not like 9 twenty four hour days, 9 working days) in the entire month of September so it's not like we're working them to death or not leaving them time for other duties.

https://www.ncleg.gov/LegislativeCalendar/9/2019
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:40 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Filed under 'how the **** can this happen in a first world country?'
Really? Not for me. I never underestimate the depths to which the slime can sink.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:44 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Which of these do you think it preferable?
a) make it easy for government to maker new regulations
b) make it harder for government to make new regulations

Filibusters and other measures that can restrict the power of the majority serve an important role in democracy and as an important check on the power of government. I’m not convinced measures that allow a minority to enact laws on it’s own do the same.
It's preferable that laws pass or don't pass based on something other then childish procedural tricks. We don't have to break out the Polysci 101 chart.

Legislative equivalents to "There's nothing in the rulebook that says a Golden Retriever can't play football!" do us no favors, not from the perspective of our freedom, not from the perspective of our security, not from the perspective of more or less government ideologies.

Even if you think it should be harder for the government to pass laws, "neiner neiner move your feet, lose your seat" is not the answer.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:44 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Really? Not for me. I never underestimate the depths to which the slime can sink.
Agreed. I just trust that these guys, at some point, tried to create a system that was as fair as practical. Not my biggest disappointment this week, I guess.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:46 AM   #57
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In a justly run society a legislature would have specific business hours set for votes and no voting done outside those hours would be permitted. And to ensure attendance the legislators would be nailed into their seats for the required period. I believe the time will come when the public must express, firmly and clearly, what level of service it demands from its servants.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:46 AM   #58
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Did it make those sissy latte sipping libruls mad?

Then why are we asking why they did it? We all know.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:49 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
In a justly run society a legislature would have specific business hours set for votes and no voting done outside those hours would be permitted. And to ensure attendance the legislators would be nailed into their seats for the required period. I believe the time will come when the public must express, firmly and clearly, what level of service it demands from its servants.
Velcro would suffice. They don't look too spritey
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:49 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah, but conceptually, how hard could it be? As legislators, surely voting is in their top three responsibilities? Just a 'hey, guys, voting is on the first Friday of every month (or every Friday or whatever). Bag the photo ops and be at work on that day, in exchange for your paycheck. Remember to shave'
In the past, that wasn't necessary... both sides recognized that the needed to act civil, respect the processes that were in place, etc.

Now that the republicans have basically peed in the pool with their dirty tricks, and showed themselves to be completely untrustworthy, it looks like they might need to enact those type of rules.

The negative part is that it does limit the flexibility of the government... if an issue requiring immediate attention comes up, you might find they need to wait a week or month for one of the voting days, despite any problems such a delay might cause.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:50 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
A fake handoff in football pass play is also a deception.
So is a bluff or slowplay in poker. However, I don't see deception as a legitimate part of the conduct of a legislature.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:54 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah, but conceptually, how hard could it be? As legislators, surely voting is in their top three responsibilities? Just a 'hey, guys, voting is on the first Friday of every month (or every Friday or whatever). Bag the photo ops and be at work on that day, in exchange for your paycheck. Remember to shave'

eta: also, yeah, 3/5ths of total representatives, at a bare minimum.
Jeez! Read the whole article. One of the top GOPers told one of the top Dems (who passed it along) that there would be no voting in the morning session. Said GOPer actually confirmed that to a radio station Tuesday night but, as he said, "I didn't tell anyone else".... as if that's a free pass.

It was a scam. The number of Republicans who showed up pretty much indicates that. If it was just confusion about the calendar then the GOP members would've been absent, too. They weren't. They called the vote so quickly, several of the Dems who were in the building couldn't get to the chamber on time so the speaker(if that's his title) counted their votes as "against" the override just so they could finish up before more Dems got back to the building.

Smarmy tactics. The NC GOP, were this a civilized country, would be banned from participation in politics for about five years.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:54 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
People are still using the 'if we don't do X, the terrorists win' rhetoric? Also from a quick reading it appears this has been going back and forth for a few months, so taking the position this was simply an inevitability with bad timing doesn't pass the smell test for me.
If we don't strip the poor of healthcare the terrorists win! That is the republican moto.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:55 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Someone tries to defend the indefensible, and fails.
It is sad when blind partisanship makes somebody say idiotic things.
Eh they are fighting socialism so whatever it takes. Think of how awful it would be if they didn't strip health care? No true conservative can think that is right.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:55 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
A fake handoff in football pass play is also a deception.
So is sticking your finger in someone's ribs and saying you have a gun.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:56 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The Hill plays it out differently:
Quote:
The veto override occurred with nearly half of the House's members absent. Many were attending committee meetings during the 55-9 Wednesday morning vote called by the Republican Speaker, and at least one was at a 9/11 anniversary ceremony.
Interesting. Thanks.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:57 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
The problem is, how is it not?
How should it not, rather.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:59 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Jeez! Read the whole article. One of the top GOPers told one of the top Dems (who passed it along) that there would be no voting in the morning session. Said GOPer actually confirmed that to a radio station Tuesday night but, as he said, "I didn't tell anyone else".... as if that's a free pass.

It was a scam. The number of Republicans who showed up pretty much indicates that. If it was just confusion about the calendar then the GOP members would've been absent, too. They weren't. They called the vote so quickly, several of the Dems who were in the building couldn't get to the chamber on time so the speaker(if that's his title) counted their votes as "against" the override just so they could finish up before more Dems got back to the building.
I think you misread my comment.

Quote:
Smarmy tactics. The NC GOP, were this a civilized country, would be banned from participation in politics for about five years.
A-friggin-men
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Old 12th September 2019, 09:02 AM   #69
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"Hey we made the decision why you were gone" isn't the kind of thing you'd tolerate if was just you and your roommates deciding on pizza toppings AND you weren't the one who told the roommates that you super seriously pinky swore promise not to order the pizza why they were in the bathroom and then went ahead and did it anyway.
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Old 12th September 2019, 09:34 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Another thing that should be done away with. They are paid to represent, and should be required to be present at all votes, even if abstaining. Barring emergencies and the like, of course.
The problem was known and solved long before the US was created. This is why the sergeant at arms in states and the US Congress is authorized with the odd and rarely-used power to compel the appearance of members.

Fixing fleeing to another state, where the sergeant has no legal power, would require some kind of mutual extradition-like agreement.
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The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales now! More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?
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Old 12th September 2019, 09:35 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Jeez! Read the whole article. One of the top GOPers told one of the top Dems (who passed it along) that there would be no voting in the morning session. Said GOPer actually confirmed that to a radio station Tuesday night but, as he said, "I didn't tell anyone else".... as if that's a free pass.



It was a scam. The number of Republicans who showed up pretty much indicates that. If it was just confusion about the calendar then the GOP members would've been absent, too. They weren't. They called the vote so quickly, several of the Dems who were in the building couldn't get to the chamber on time so the speaker(if that's his title) counted their votes as "against" the override just so they could finish up before more Dems got back to the building.



Smarmy tactics. The NC GOP, were this a civilized country, would be banned from participation in politics for about five years.
It's way worse than smarmy.
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Old 12th September 2019, 09:36 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Every ******* one of them should be removed from office and whatever retirement benefits/pensions they've earned in their seat should be stripped immediately.
You are much more generous than the I would be to these sub-human scum.
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Old 12th September 2019, 09:56 AM   #73
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Remember all these declarations of high value in principles the next time the shoe is on the other foot.

I don't recall too many screaming about gaming the system when state legislators flee to another state to deny a quorum for a vote.

Scummy is as scummy does.
I can see why you don't get the difference. The GOP in TX was redistricting in between decade censuses, something never done, so they could gerrymander more districts and shift control of Congress.

This began a decades long era of GOP cheating: GW Bush's firing of the 8 state AGs who would not prosecute for political reasons, voter caging, purging the voter roles in FL of anyone who had the same name as a felon.

Then we had McConnell pulling a bull **** move re the SCOTUS. And now this.

The GOP is revealing just how much of our checks and balances government was dependent upon people voluntarily acting ethically.

Denying a quorum in a desperate effort to stop unethical gerrymandering is hardly the same as calling a vote knowing legislators that had a right to vote wouldn't be there is not even close to the same thing.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 12th September 2019 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:02 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Another thing that should be done away with. They are paid to represent, and should be required to be present at all votes, even if abstaining. Barring emergencies and the like, of course.
That's like saying someone who broke the window of a car to rescue an overheated dog broke the law.

This GOP cheating will not end well.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 12th September 2019 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:04 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Rather than forcing them, you can let their constituents decide if the behavior is acceptable.
Riiight. The whole point of gerrymandering was to keep the minority in power.
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:06 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's preferable that laws pass or don't pass based on something other then childish procedural tricks. We don't have to break out the Polysci 101 chart.

Legislative equivalents to "There's nothing in the rulebook that says a Golden Retriever can't play football!" do us no favors, not from the perspective of our freedom, not from the perspective of our security, not from the perspective of more or less government ideologies.

Even if you think it should be harder for the government to pass laws, "neiner neiner move your feet, lose your seat" is not the answer.
This ^
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:08 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
In the past, that wasn't necessary... both sides recognized that the needed to act civil, respect the processes that were in place, etc.

Now that the republicans have basically peed in the pool with their dirty tricks, and showed themselves to be completely untrustworthy, it looks like they might need to enact those type of rules.

The negative part is that it does limit the flexibility of the government... if an issue requiring immediate attention comes up, you might find they need to wait a week or month for one of the voting days, despite any problems such a delay might cause.
This ^
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:09 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Jeez! Read the whole article. One of the top GOPers told one of the top Dems (who passed it along) that there would be no voting in the morning session. Said GOPer actually confirmed that to a radio station Tuesday night but, as he said, "I didn't tell anyone else".... as if that's a free pass.

It was a scam. The number of Republicans who showed up pretty much indicates that. If it was just confusion about the calendar then the GOP members would've been absent, too. They weren't. They called the vote so quickly, several of the Dems who were in the building couldn't get to the chamber on time so the speaker(if that's his title) counted their votes as "against" the override just so they could finish up before more Dems got back to the building.

Smarmy tactics. The NC GOP, were this a civilized country, would be banned from participation in politics for about five years.
This ^
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:41 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
In memory of the tragedy of 9/11, people all over the country are going to memorials and whatnot.

That's what democratic legislators in North Carolina did.

And while they were gone, republican leadership called a surprise vote to override the governor's veto of a budget bill. With all the opposition out, they were able to override the veto.

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/po...234962017.html

Come on, someone try to defend it.
If that is what happened it was pretty low but who knows... republicans are not the only ones who might misrepresent something.
Quote:
The Associated Press reported that the office of Republican Speaker Tim Moore provided audio from Tuesday’s floor session of Lewis saying that recorded votes would happen Wednesday.
Quote:
Republicans also disputed the claim by the governor and other Democrats that many of them were attending events remembering 9/11 victims and first responders. Local news reports said only one or two Democrats claimed to have been attending a 9/11 memorial at the time of the vote.
Quote:
Some headlines suggested that Democrats were at events commemorating the 9/11 attacks — the vote was taken at roughly the same time as the national moment of silence. But The News & Observer has confirmed only two Democrats attended 9/11 events.

One was Cooper, who spoke at the North Carolina National Guard’s Sept. 11 commemoration in Raleigh.

The other was Rep. Garland Pierce, a Scotland County Democrat, who says he attended an event in Raeford.

Last edited by eeyore1954; 12th September 2019 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:50 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
If that is what happened it was pretty low but who knows... republicans are not the only ones who might misrepresent something.
Quote:
The Associated Press reported that the office of Republican Speaker Tim Moore provided audio from Tuesday’s floor session of Lewis saying that recorded votes would happen Wednesday.
That was never contested. When those votes would take place is the issue here.
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