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19th September 2019, 02:48 PM | #161 |
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Yes.
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And no, it's not on me to disprove an unsubstantiated claim. So I'll ask again: Do you have another source besides a Republican legislator's blog? |
19th September 2019, 02:52 PM | #162 |
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19th September 2019, 06:10 PM | #163 |
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Uh.... The quoted posts are arguments that it’s the GOP that are uniquely bad. That this incident represents the party as a whole. That right-wingers are dirty and unethical. That’s called “special pleading.” That the electorate needs to be shown just how bad they are. I posted a story that blows up that “GOP=Evil” narrative. Both parties have engaged in this behavior. Politics is a ****** business. Please don’t argue that your side is above it. |
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19th September 2019, 06:28 PM | #164 |
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19th September 2019, 07:43 PM | #165 |
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Yeah, you posted a “story” all right.
What you’ve yet to provide is a reason for anyone to accept this story at face-value like you and theprestige so eagerly did. If the subject of this thread was so readily believed based on nothing more than one Democratic legislator’s version of events, every conservative on this forum would be here jumping on our heads with both feet, and rightly so. Your pretense at being some kind of neutral arbiter of facts is a joke. |
19th September 2019, 07:50 PM | #166 |
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Remembering 9/11...Republican style
In what way is it problematic? That’s what happened. No spin, just facts.
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I feel like I could post any source and you’ll dismiss it because reasons...but here are couple more that outline the same basic events: https://nsjonline.com/article/2019/0...y-controversy/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nort...cation_Lottery Here’s a cite that includes a clipping from a contemporary news account: https://lockerroom.johnlocke.org/201...ation-lottery/ The pertinent part of the clipping:
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19th September 2019, 07:55 PM | #167 |
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19th September 2019, 09:31 PM | #168 |
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19th September 2019, 10:06 PM | #169 |
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Ah, yes! The old UNIQUELY gambit. Wasn't it Ziggurat who got ten pages of whataboutism (covering multiple decades, if not complete centuries) out of a similar straw man claim? I'm pretty sure it was in defense of Trump, but the argument was "Show that Trump is Uniquely more __________ (evil, incompetent, a liar, whatever...).
It may be a fine point of grammar and vocabulary, but the argument is not that the North Carolina GOP is UNIQUELY scummy, but that the North Carolina GOP is SPECIFICALLY scummy,... in this case. The fact that LaGuardia did similar tricks in NYC or Huey Long in Louisiana has no bearing whatsoever. Was the GOP action in this case scummy? Yes, it was. |
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19th September 2019, 10:09 PM | #170 |
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Translation: I can’t find a single neutral source for this event I’m claiming is a matter of public record, so I’m going to make it your fault for pointing out that I’ve got nothing.
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https://nsjonline.com/article/2019/0...y-controversy/ Does not confirm the claim that the Democrats deceived the Republicans. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nort...cation_Lottery Does not confirm... well, anything.
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Yeah, real slam dunk. North Carolina has a lot of newspapers. Why is it that you can’t find a single one of them that covered this historical event in a way that substantiates those two blogs you dredged up from the bowels of the internet? |
20th September 2019, 07:37 AM | #171 |
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Called it! I could find any source and if it makes the Dems look bad you’ll just insinuate it’s made up. I live in reality where the GOP makes scummy moves . . . and so do the Dems.
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20th September 2019, 08:10 AM | #172 |
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I posted a list of quotes where the argument was clearly the GOP as a whole is scummy. Two of them were yours. I'll remind you:
Originally Posted by foolmewunz
It is perfectly germane to therefore ask you: Should the Dems have been banned for the way they passed the lottery bill? Are the dems lying weaselly scumbags? Are Dem supporters examples of cognitive dissonance, especially given their overblown response to this move? |
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20th September 2019, 08:13 AM | #173 |
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20th September 2019, 08:25 AM | #174 |
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If the claim that started this thread were only posted on a democratic lawmakers blog and other left leaning blogs repeated it, would you accept it as an accurate historical fact? I sort of doubt it, and if you did, you'd be a bit too credulous. I don't accept partisan blogs as strong evidence whether or not they confirm my worldview. I find myself regularly searching for corroboration in more established sources when I see a story from somewher like The Root or Mother Jones.
Jonny makes a good point that there are lots of newspapers and other news sources in NC. The state as a whole leans conservative as do many media outlets there. It would be very conspicuous if there were no coverage of this event in a more substantial source. If it happened as the blog detailed, this would be newsworthy and would certainly fit well within the coverage policies of many mainstream NC media outlets. I'm on board with you that democrats are in no way immune from scummy actions. But I would be a bit surprised by such a large group of them hitting this particular low. That's a significant claim which should require at least the level of evidence you'd personally need to feel you were getting an accurate account of a scummy Republican action, no? |
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20th September 2019, 08:43 AM | #175 |
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You've impeached every one of my sources as biased and keep asking for more. Yet you have accepted the OP without question. So let me ask the obvious question: why should we believe the OP source? The N&O is a liberal rag and the story had mostly outraged quotes of obviously biased Democratic senators. Indeed, as the story developed, it became apparent that the whole "Remembering 9/11 . . . Republican Style," angle was bogus. Why didn't you call out the OP for that hyperbolic pearl clutching?
So yes, I'm held to a standard of substantiation that you don't apply to anyone else. |
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20th September 2019, 08:48 AM | #176 |
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Actually, a few of the sources didn't even have any information damning of Democrats. Why did you bother with them.
What you don't have so far is a neutral source damning of Democrats. Every neutral source you posted does not support your claim. Don't you find that suspicious? |
20th September 2019, 08:48 AM | #177 |
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*Very slowly* Because calling out every example of something is not a pre-requisite for calling out any specific example of it, even if the isn't "unique" no matter how much you want it to be.
OTHER PEOPLE BEING WRONG DOESN'T MAKE YOU RIGHT. "Hypocrisy" isn't a natural force that balances out like magnetism or thermodynamics. |
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20th September 2019, 09:28 AM | #178 |
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20th September 2019, 09:48 AM | #179 |
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Yes, but in your reality the threshold for evidence required for you to believe Democrats did something scummy is considerably lower.
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And what's sad is that you could only find two. I can probably find more sources that confirm that existence of Bigfoot. Meanwhile, this event which you claim is a historical fact somehow went unnoticed by the every media outlet in North Carolina. |
20th September 2019, 10:07 AM | #180 |
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"Every one of your sources" = Two right-wing blogs.
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Also, multiple people beat me to it: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post12817889 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post12818209 Also, the person making the original claim didn't defend it tooth and nail after the clarification was provided. Also, pointing the finger at someone else's false or misleading claim doesn't excuse you from your own.
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But it wouldn't matter if you were. The substantiation you provided would still be a joke. |
20th September 2019, 10:17 AM | #181 |
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"Not calling someone out" and "Holding someone to a different standard" are two different things that you are rather disingenuously trying to conflate.
In order for me to be holding other people to a different standard, as you claim I am doing, you would have to provide evidence of me holding other people to a different standard. It would look something like this: Other people: I am making a claim. To substantiate this claim, I have provided two biased sources that merely repeat the claim without providing any additional substantiation. Me: Everything seems to be in order here. I accept your claim as factual. |
20th September 2019, 10:34 AM | #182 |
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I'm not looking for sources that damn anyone; I'm looking for sources that outline the bare facts, stripping out the pearl clutching, damnation and emotion, and all the sources are in agreement with those facts. Those facts are very simple.
In the present case: The Republicans held a vote when enough Democrats were out in order to get a bill they wanted passed. (Response in this thread: Boo! Hiss! Scumbags!) In the lottery case: The Democrats held a vote when enough Republicans were out in order to get a bill they wanted passed. (Response in this thread: You can't prove this happened; this didn't happen! Whataboutism!!!!!1!) That is literally it. I've given enough citations to support that those bare facts are true. This thread started as an attempt to smear the GOP as evil. I've quoted the relevant posts that show that. I am not trying to damn any party; I'm only pointing out that if you are going to damn the GOP then you have to damn the whole political system. My personal opinion is that no party really needs damning. This is the way stuff is done and has been done since the founding of the country. Political shenanigans are simply business as usual and it's stupid to bloviate about how evil the other side is. |
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20th September 2019, 10:40 AM | #183 |
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20th September 2019, 10:41 AM | #184 |
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Well, I'm not from NC, I have no reason to doubt the basic facts of the lottery bill passage I've already found from my sources and I have no desire to pay for access and dig through archives of NC newspapers from 15 years ago to find an account that would be more acceptable.
And I've already said that I don't feel that the OP gave us an accurate account of what happened here. But taking the emotion out of the story, the basic facts seem to be correct: The Republicans held a vote where there were many Dems missing in order to get a bill passed. I think that was a ****** move. Just as I think the basic facts have been substantiated with the lottery bill: The Democrats held a vote when 2 Republicans were out because they knew they could pass it at that time. That was a ****** move too. |
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20th September 2019, 11:08 AM | #185 |
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20th September 2019, 11:21 AM | #186 |
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Please don't lie to me: You were specifically looking for sources that damn Democrats in showing they were involved in unethical behavior. That's precisely your intention. Why must you lie? Let me be clear: I'm OK with you doing that. I'm aware of unethical actions by Democrats, believe me. I just don't appreciate you lying about it. You're also lying about finding sources that outline bare facts: You haven't found any reliable sources: Only biased blogs by politicians with an agenda. Absolutely no third party newspapers have been presented to support your case. Note: You know that other thread? The one about Kavanaugh where you claimed I hadn't thought my position through........And when I presented my position you just ghosted on me? Remember that one? I was trying to be civil and saying I didn't categorize you in with the gaslighting Trump apologists, but your behavior here (particularly the lying) makes me question my earlier judgment.
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Let me tell you one thing: You keep complaining that the GOP is being smeared as uniquely corrupt. I actually believe the Trump era GOP IS uniquely corrupt. There are so many GOP politicians spreading lies (such as Birtherism, Hillary murdered people in Benghazi, millions of illegals vote regularly and repeatedly, and climate change is a socialist hoax, for but a few examples) that I am now laying the gauntlet down: Find me comparable examples of such repeated, widespread, and dangerous rhetorical lies coming from the Democrats on a regular basis. You know what, on this issue I don't think YOU have really thought your position through. I backed my position up in the other thread and you ran away. Can you respond so well now that I've challenged you?.
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I think the problem is you're clinging to an idea of what the GOP used to be and is now corrupted beyond all recognition. Wake up to that truth already. |
20th September 2019, 11:24 AM | #187 |
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Oh really now? I was living in North Carolina at the time and I don't recall hearing anything about your claim. The GOP lied about Benghazi and many other things; why the hell should I believe them (or you) now? Sources aren't created equally. You wouldn't accept a cite from Alex Jones (at least I don't think you would) for example. Why should I accept a story that you have been incapable of finding third party neutral support for? |
20th September 2019, 12:35 PM | #188 |
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Oh, and xjx388, regarding the gauntlet (should you choose to accept it): Trump's lawyers have just argued that the president can not even be criminally investigated.
I invite you to find me of an example of Democrats doing such a thing. TRUMP ERA REPUBLICANS ARE UNIQUELY BAD. I invite you xjx388 (and anyone else willing to take up the challenge) to prove me wrong. I'm tired of the Trumpists here strawmanning me by saying my arguments claimed that Trump or the GOP were uniquely bad. I wasn't claiming that then, but if you're gonna force it on me, sure, I'll own it: I claim it now. Now put up or shut up. |
20th September 2019, 01:20 PM | #189 |
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Lying? No, that's just well-poisoning.
I concede the possibility that the NC Lottery passed in a manner totally inconsistent with the way my citations made it sound. So let's review the facts as I understand them from those citations: 1)The Democrats did not have enough votes to pass the legislation. 2)2 Senators opposed to the bill took the last day of the session off. 3)This was noted by the President Pro-Tem of the Senate, Marc Baslight and a vote was called. 4)The vote was tied and the tie was broken by the Lt. Gov., Beverly Perdue. I subscribe to the NYT so I searched their archives. Here is their blurb from their National Briefing feature of August 31, 2005. A quote from the relevant section:
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For your edification, here's a link to a contemporary news report that corroborates 3. https://www.wral.com/news/local/video/1091054/
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20th September 2019, 01:43 PM | #190 |
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20th September 2019, 01:45 PM | #191 |
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20th September 2019, 01:57 PM | #192 |
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20th September 2019, 02:13 PM | #193 |
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And did you get the corroborating evidence? Because the OP has been pretty well debunked -9/11 had nothing to do with anything, just good ol' political chicanery.*
*I had a professor who told me once that I wasn't supposed to use that word because I'm Chicano and "chicanery" derived from Chicano or vice versa . . . random BS I was told growing up on the Mexican border. |
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20th September 2019, 02:28 PM | #194 | ||
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I'm heading out for the night so it's unlikely I'll post more in the near future, but I can't let this slip past. I'll admit I only half read your claim for the NC lottery. If it boils down to 1-4.......that's it??? Seriously? How the hell is that analogous? I don't even see a claim that senators were lied to about taking/not taking a vote. You do realize the claim of a lie was the primary issue, right?
No. HELL NO!. If you're not aware by now that each and every one of my claims (Birtherism, Benghazi, illegals voting, and climate change) are true (we've only been literally surrounded by such claims for years now) then you don't even pay enough attention to handle a legitimate debate with a ferret.
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20th September 2019, 02:37 PM | #195 |
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Oh, and you're still lying, I see. I know damn well it was your intention to find unethical Democratic behavior to contrast with the OP. That's obvious, man. Now, doing that is perfectly OK. Lying about it is not. It's a damn shame I can no longer found Trump apologists and GOP supporters capable of engaging in debate honestly. |
20th September 2019, 03:14 PM | #196 |
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Back in the Bush days conservatives would at least occasionally try to make actual arguments in favor of their elected officials and candidates. I rarely agreed with them, but they were actual arguments put for that were in favor of them.
Now? We've got plenty of excuses. Plenty of distractions. Plenty of admitted full on trolling. It's been a long time since we had anything else. |
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20th September 2019, 04:24 PM | #197 |
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The best they argue now is the rationalization that 'everyone is just as bad'.
It isn't actually true for basically everything right now, in both kind and magnitude. The only reason it is the 'best' argument they have is that yes, some other people really do behave badly too. Just (usually) not to this level. |
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20th September 2019, 08:19 PM | #198 |
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On second thought, why bother?
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20th September 2019, 08:22 PM | #199 |
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NVM
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20th September 2019, 08:53 PM | #200 |
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