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2nd October 2019, 06:04 AM | #81 |
Merchant of Doom
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You know, this entire line of argument is ridiculous.
I don't have to have the first flat tire ever for it to ruin my trip. |
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History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell |
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2nd October 2019, 06:07 AM | #82 |
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Because it's not an argument and everyone knows it. Nobody it's used against thinks it's an argument and nobody who uses it really believes it is.
It's a "scorch the argumentative Earth instead of losing the argument" tactic. It's just the political discussion version of "Well prove you aren't a brain in a jar" the Woo Slingers pull. It's just another sad variation of "I'd rather nobody be right about anything then be wrong about this one thing." |
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"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
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2nd October 2019, 06:39 AM | #83 |
Penultimate Amazing
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There is no Antimemetics Division. |
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2nd October 2019, 06:47 AM | #84 |
Merchant of Doom
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Couldn't resist, could you? Anything to distract from any substantive point? Let's nitpick the analogy instead of discuss the point that literally everyone else can understand?
You're right, none of the numerous problems are unique, so let's just sit in our hand baskets and smile. No complaints, no point in making things better because this isn't unique. Or if that's not it, what is the point of this constant refrain of (to paraphrase) just shut up and take it you insist on? It's a pointless argument whether true or false, yet seems to be pretty much the only thing brought to the table anymore. |
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History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell |
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2nd October 2019, 06:49 AM | #85 |
Fiend God
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2nd October 2019, 06:59 AM | #86 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Parties are complex entities with large membership. No defined parameters, cherry-pick this, cherry-pick that -- it's a fool's errand. On the other hand, there have only been 44 POTUSes. It's feasible to look back and reasonably determine certain things, especially if we focus on the electronic media age. What with the vagueness of the challenge and Cabbage's vacation, I hope y'all don't mind if I focus on Trump.
Certain of my claims are too fuzzy to elevate to a challenge, my confidence notwithstanding. But these claims seem to me like low-hanging fruit. (In terms of researchability.)
Originally Posted by varwoche;12839837 numbers added
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To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
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2nd October 2019, 07:00 AM | #87 |
Merchant of Doom
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Yep, and start another pedant-filled nitpick of analogies that distracts from any useful discussion.
A flat tire needs to be fixed. That was the point. Yet let's focus on wording of a ruined trip and still beat this to death as if it meant anything useful. It's annoyingly irrelevant, yet it's everywhere over here. Done ranting, carry on all. |
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History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell |
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2nd October 2019, 07:19 AM | #88 |
Philosopher
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Well, about Boss Tweed: Other city machines might give a widow a bag of flour and a bushel of coal. Tweed's fellahs would give her a job sweeping floors at city hall.
About the Know Nothings: Hell's afire, they're still with us. |
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When I spoke out against the bullies, they called me woke. When I lashed them with a length of chain, they called me sir. |
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2nd October 2019, 07:23 AM | #89 |
... and your little dog too.
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Yes, you made one. And it was terrible. The reason it is terrible is for the reason I already provided.
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And this: ... is literally a concession.
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You are demanding that we "establish" something that is common knowledge and happening right out in the open, i.e. the GOP enabling Trump by either carrying his water or turning a blind eye. This is the same disingenuous game conservatives on this forum and elsewhere continue to play. Just keep denying and make everyone else prove the same established facts over and over. It's a method that bogs down the conversation and guarantees it can never more forward. |
2nd October 2019, 07:24 AM | #90 |
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Not uniquely - and 1850's Democrats were way worse. But obviously this current bunch is totally disgusting and shamelessly corrupt.
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2nd October 2019, 07:33 AM | #91 |
Penultimate Amazing
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There is no Antimemetics Division. |
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2nd October 2019, 07:42 AM | #92 |
Fiend God
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2nd October 2019, 07:49 AM | #93 |
Poisoned Waffles
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You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
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2nd October 2019, 07:53 AM | #94 |
Fiend God
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2nd October 2019, 07:58 AM | #95 |
Poisoned Waffles
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You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
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2nd October 2019, 08:13 AM | #96 |
Merchant of Doom
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History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell |
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2nd October 2019, 08:29 AM | #97 |
Penultimate Amazing
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If you had a substantive point, you wouldn't need to appeal to a flat tire analogy. You could simply make your substantive point in terms of the thing itself.
Anyway, if I understand the gist of your analogy, you're arguing that Trump/the GOP isn't uniquely bad at this point in history, but they could still do with some fixing. Is that correct? If it is, then you and I are probably in almost perfect agreement here. Probably we only disagree on the exact form the fix should take. |
2nd October 2019, 08:30 AM | #98 |
Poisoned Waffles
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You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
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2nd October 2019, 08:31 AM | #99 |
Penultimate Amazing
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My "stance" is that I'm pointing out that everybody behaves badly around analogies, pretty much guaranteeing they'll never work, and yet all quietly pretending that arguments by analogy are actually useful. Drop the pretense and stop wasting everybody's time with analogies that aren't going to work anyway, is what I say.
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2nd October 2019, 08:34 AM | #100 |
Penultimate Amazing
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2nd October 2019, 08:39 AM | #101 |
Merchant of Doom
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Which is fine, yet the entire argument seems to be that if it isn't uniquely bad, just sit back and wait.
Analogies are to expand upon relevant aspects of a point. Analogies are not proof, they're used to provide clarity to the point being made, which that did rather well to everyone except you. Just because a flat tire isn't unique doesn't mean it isn't a problem. Just because it's not the end of the world doesn't mean it can be ignored. If it's not fixed, it can lead to more severe problems. Likewise the current situation. Yet with every new issue this argument is brought up that it's "business as usual", nothing to worry about, just let it keep going. it'll be fine, no need to be alarmed or take any action other than the usual. The flat tire is fine until we're driving on the rim, then we can take action. For someone who discards analogies as being unnecessary, you focus the majority of effort on similarly unnecessary points. Instead of arguing about the uniqueness, argue about the thing that needs to be done. The uniqueness or not is immaterial and irrelevant. |
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History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell |
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2nd October 2019, 08:40 AM | #102 |
Merchant of Doom
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History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell |
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2nd October 2019, 08:44 AM | #103 |
Poisoned Waffles
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How would an analogy be in someone's hands? It's not a physical object. Perhaps you could explain your meaning using some kind of comparison to something else? There's a word for that, I can't quite recall it, it's on the tip of my tongue like a tiny amount of something I'm close to identifying by taste but haven't yet.
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You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
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2nd October 2019, 09:01 AM | #104 |
Fiend God
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2nd October 2019, 09:06 AM | #105 |
Mistral, mistral wind...
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Another thread "bobbed." And no Bob in sight. Huh.
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I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
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2nd October 2019, 10:09 AM | #106 |
Penultimate Amazing
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2nd October 2019, 10:28 AM | #107 |
Illuminator
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This story on CNN.com tells all you need to know about a significant portion of the current crop of Republicans:
Originally Posted by CNN
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100% Cannuck! |
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2nd October 2019, 11:03 AM | #108 |
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For it to be a concession I would have had to have had a different opinion beforehand. In this case, it's simply an expression of disinterest in the topic, "Trump is a uniquely bad President," because I already think he's bad enough to get rid of.
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As I said, give me a good argument and I'm open to it. That hasn't happened yet.
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But we can easily stop this game. Let's hold each other to the same standards and try to find some common ground in respect. |
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Hello. |
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2nd October 2019, 11:11 AM | #109 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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2nd October 2019, 11:16 AM | #110 |
Philosopher
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Disturbances of the semantic reactions in connection with faulty education and ignorance must be considered as sub-microscopic colloidal lesions - Alfred O. Korzybski |
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2nd October 2019, 11:17 AM | #111 |
Poisoned Waffles
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You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
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2nd October 2019, 11:20 AM | #112 |
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When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won. |
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2nd October 2019, 12:00 PM | #113 |
Penultimate Amazing
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2nd October 2019, 12:04 PM | #114 |
Fiend God
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2nd October 2019, 12:37 PM | #115 |
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I don't think anyone has said, "just sit back and wait." Indeed, I support an impeachment inquiry and wonder what the hell took so long. What I do push back against is the FUD that seems rampant, as if the Trump era is an existential crisis for the US -nay, the world! That's a bit much. I also push back against the whole appeal to silence that happens a lot: If the GOP/conservatives don't say what the other side thinks they should say, the whole party is enablers/racists/yadda yadda.
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Hello. |
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2nd October 2019, 02:23 PM | #116 |
Illuminator
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'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard |
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2nd October 2019, 02:31 PM | #117 |
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"The GOP is uniquely bad," is an assertion. "The GOP espouses birtherism," is an assertion. In the former case, an assertion is all it can ever be, for reasons discussed by others in this thread. In the latter, an appeal to "common knowledge," is not appropriate. In fact, it's widely-known (as long as we are indulging "common knowledge" arguments) that the existing rumors of his supposed Kenyan birth were circulated by members of Hillary Clinton's campaign and considered as ammo to use against him. There were also plenty of people on that bandwagon that weren't members of the GOP so you can't even say this is a uniquely republican thing -more a whackadoodle thing. Sure, you can argue that the Tea Party republicans were big on this, but they are hardly representative of the GOP as a whole.
Similar for Trump's claims of "Illegal voting;" that's a Trump thing not a GOP-as-a-whole thing. I've also been told that the GOP is "carrying his water" and enabling him. That's another one of those assertions that will be very hard to back up. Paul Ryan stepped down because of Trump and many GOP congresscritters are retiring in his wake. They may not want to impeach him because of the damage it will do to the party as a whole but that certainly does not imply that the GOP supports, buys into or otherwise enables Trump's nonsense. |
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Hello. |
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2nd October 2019, 03:00 PM | #118 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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2nd October 2019, 03:00 PM | #119 |
... and your little dog too.
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I really don't like it when arguments devolve into definitional pedantry, but dude... seriously?
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Raise your standards, and then maybe we can have an actual discussion.
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You want to separate Trump from the GOP? Let me know when they make any real effort to hold him accountable.
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If someone tells me it's raining, I probably don't need to have that confirmed with additional data. If someone tells me it's raining cocktail wieners, I might need to take a look for myself. That you want to start from the disingenuous position of feigning ignorance about how far the GOP has bent over backwards to enable Trump and insist that we "prove" it to you is silly.
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2nd October 2019, 04:37 PM | #120 |
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
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Oh well, since we're dragging conspiracy theories into this... No, sorry, I'm not interested in going down that BS rabbit hole. The source of the rumour was GOP candidate Andy Martin, a big fan of numerous conspiracy theories; and the one Clinton campaign staffer who circulated it was subsequently fired. Guess who was the biggest promoter of Birtherism? Oh that's right, Donald Trump and the mainstream GOP. So, clearly you have nothing but BS conspiracy theories and half-assed attempts at whataboutism to contribute, and I can safely ignore you from here on out. Thanks for that. |
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When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won. |
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