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2nd October 2019, 06:49 PM | #121 |
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Originally Posted by theprestige
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This week he kneads a dill dough. |
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2nd October 2019, 06:56 PM | #122 |
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Resolved: Trump Era Republicans Are Uniquely Bad in American Political History
Nope. I didn’t say Clinton staffers were the source of the rumor. I said they circulated it. And they did. That one was fired does not negate the fact that they were a Democrat. And the other Clinton associate who helped spread the rumor was Sidney Blumenthal. As I said, people outside the GOP trafficked in this piece of BS, so it’s not something confined to the GOP. Yes, Trump was a big supporter of the BS but I’ve already conceded that Trump is bad. |
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3rd October 2019, 06:48 AM | #123 |
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Once again, you're accepting disputed or unverified accounts as factual.
Here's a couple of links you can use to educate yourself: https://www.politico.com/story/2016/...clinton-228304 https://www.politico.com/story/2016/...n-obama-228388
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3rd October 2019, 06:52 AM | #124 |
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3rd October 2019, 07:38 AM | #125 |
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Nope. See it doesn’t matter what I actually say, my perceived conservatism/GOP support will always color my words in people’s minds. The only thing I said there was that people who were not GOP were involved in circulating these rumors; thus, it’s not an exclusively GOP thing. Never said it was Hillary’s fault or that Trump wasn’t an idiot. |
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3rd October 2019, 07:40 AM | #126 |
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3rd October 2019, 07:48 AM | #127 |
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I agree, and the following fact in no way negates your broader point.
You may recall in the 2008 primaries that a picture of Obama in Somali garb was circulated. That came from a high level within the Clinton campaign. And when exposed, they defended it with an appalling GOP-like fake explanation. |
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3rd October 2019, 08:03 AM | #128 |
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3rd October 2019, 09:01 AM | #129 |
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Conceded
But context is important. In the context of a debate, to say that someone conceded is to say that they argued one point but then conceded that that point was wrong. My very first post in this thread basically stipulated that Trump is bad so I think "conceded" is an improper use. Minor quibble.
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I kid! But I will note that BI is certainly using loaded words to make run-of-the-mill political stuff sound like the Republicans are, as you put it, "doing his bidding." What the GOP is doing is defending the current President who is a member of their party and the GOP is certainly not unique in that respect and I'm not sure why anyone is surprised by this.
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As far as respect . . . I've often heard it said that "respect needs to be earned," which always comes off as some kind of tough-guy thing to me. I believe you start by respecting others and when they do things to lose that respect, hey, at least you did the right thing. But whatever . . . that's my philosophy. I don't come into arguments with an agenda and guns blazing. I want good arguments and I want to be challenged. What I don't like is the snide little stuff that happens and the overt hostility that has already sent one member on a little vacation. |
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3rd October 2019, 09:06 AM | #130 |
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3rd October 2019, 09:28 AM | #131 |
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Those two links say exactly what I said. 1)Clinton's staffers circulated this and considered using it and 2)Sid Blumenthal told 3 reporters from various outlets Now, you can pretend that Sid Blumenthal didn't tell three reporters to investigate Obama's Kenyan birth and that they didn't subsequently investigate that. Sid denied it, and we all know he's a Democrat and thus completely devoid of malintent. It's those journalists who have an agenda . . . or something.
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3rd October 2019, 11:05 AM | #132 |
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3rd October 2019, 12:07 PM | #133 |
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Resolved: Trump Era Republicans Are Uniquely Bad in American Political History
I see...I get derided for using biased sources and told I need neutral sources but a story with this headline:
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I’ll also note that I followed-up with “I kid!” and pointed out the exact problem I had with the story. My sources from the other NC thread got the basic facts right and that’s what I focused on there. But nope, no good apparently, because those are “biased” sources to begin with and thus, dismissible on their face. It’s a double standard. |
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3rd October 2019, 12:11 PM | #134 |
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3rd October 2019, 12:16 PM | #135 |
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3rd October 2019, 12:28 PM | #136 |
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3rd October 2019, 05:35 PM | #137 |
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4th October 2019, 06:55 AM | #138 |
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4th October 2019, 07:03 AM | #139 |
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If what you say is true the Democrats are at least as bad if not worse. Looking into the characters of the Clintons or the lack thereof BIlly Clinton raped a woman in London when he was a college student. He has been photographed with a 14-year-old girl supposedly on a trip on the good ship Lolita going to an Island where men had sex with underage girls.
Trump may be crass but at least he unlike Bernie Sanders fights socialism whereas Bernie embraces it. Both sides lie without a doubt it's just that the Republicans do a better job of running America. Most of what you said was lies seem to be exaggerations rather than complete fabrications. |
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4th October 2019, 07:13 AM | #140 |
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Two wrongs make a right-wing!
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Go Republicans! |
4th October 2019, 07:22 AM | #141 |
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One must be a great writer in order to convey nuance in the written word. I am obviously not such a writer. But I try. Yes I did imply that. I implied that in order to subsequently point out that dismissing a source for bias isn’t appropriate; the content is what should get the scrutiny. This was indicated by, “I kid!” and then pointing out exactly where I thought the specific article went wrong. “Do better,” was intended as mockery of the kinds of things I get told when citing sources that have some bias. |
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4th October 2019, 07:24 AM | #142 |
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If you want to be entirely fair you have to distinguish bias from bias. There's a difference between the bias of The Grauniad and the one of Breitbart, to name two off the top of my head. Bias alone isn't the issue, but it's often a shorthand for media outlets who are blinded by that bias, or who play fast and loose with the facts. Perhaps that's the part you didn't quite understand.
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16th October 2019, 03:54 AM | #143 |
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....except for when it truly is common knowledge. Look, here's a link demonstrating that a majority of Republicans doubt that Obama was born in the US:
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https://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box...l-doubt-obamas Now, you've been pestering me for cites for weeks now. This is one I found in literally under five seconds. It truly is "common knowledge", and the extent to which you've pestered for a cite for this common knowledge causes me to question whether you are truly approaching this debate (and others) in good faith.
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...........(sigh)............. The delivery was sarcasm. The links were sincere--And, as expected, were totally ignored by you. |
16th October 2019, 10:02 AM | #144 |
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All you've done is demonstrate that in 2016, too many people who are registered Republicans or are Republican leaning (as defined by the pollsters) believe that Obama was not born in the US. That is a far different thing from your original claim that the GOP -the party- espoused birtherism. I have already demonstrated how this is not a uniquely Republican claim or belief; indeed, your own poll proves that point, showing that 20-something % of Democrats still believe that tripe. Political propaganda is very effective and it comes from both sides and there is nothing unique about it to either the GOP or in US political history.
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16th October 2019, 11:27 AM | #145 |
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No. My claim has always been that the modern GOP is uniquely bad because of the level of gullibility. Given any large group you can find traces of most any stupidity: It takes gullibility on the level of the GOP to believe one BS conspiracy theory after another. I challenge you to find another major political party with majorities so duped by conspiracy theories such as Birtherism, Climate Change Denial, Clinton Murder Spree, and Illegals Voting. As I previously noted, I am in sole charge of declaring what my words mean, despite your repeated attempts to spin them.
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I never said "everyone", so why did you assume I meant everyone? Oh yeah, because it's the only defense you could come up with out of desperation.
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Otherwise, you might have (gosh!) actually read one of those cites. Weeks ago. Imagine that! LOL! |
16th October 2019, 01:34 PM | #146 |
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Don't blame your poor choice of words on me.
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You made a really bad argument in your OP. You said "Trump Era Republicans are uniquely bad in American Political History." That is a ridiculous claim. What makes it a bad argument and a ridiculous claim isn't so much the content (you are entitled to your opinion) but the way that you state it as a demonstrable fact rather than your own opinion. So now you've "clarified" your claim (aka, moved the goalposts) to this idea that you are really talking about "trends" in the GOP. So what exactly, in precise terms, is your claim? That the modern GOP is uniquely bad because the party leadership and the party as a whole trends towards believing BS?
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1)The arguement is extremely weak -even if you are correct, who cares? What does it even mean to be "uniquely bad?" They are bad in a different way than any other . . . but is that way better or worse than others? Implicit in your original argument was the idea that you think that makes them worse than any other party in history. But you've since clarified that you didn't mean to imply that, just that they are different. If that is all you are saying, then it's such weak sauce that it isn't worthy of any further examination. 2)The argument is so specific to very recent history as to render your OP meaningless. You said "in American Political History." Birtherism is indeed a unique episode in American Political History, but it isn't particular egregious in the history of American politics. I mean, we are talking about a history that includes one of the great injustices of all time: slavery. It includes the Jim Crow era. It includes the internment of Japanese-Americans in concentration camps. It includes the overt political intertwining of the KKK and major political parties. When we look at all of American Political History, birtherism is little more than an embarrassing footnote.
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The Democrats are uniquely bad in their denial of the science concerning the utility of nuclear power in the fight against climate change. The Democrats are uniquely bad in their embrace of bad medicine concerning supposed mental illnesses Trump has. The Democrats are uniquely bad in their support for socialism while denying that they support socialism. I could go on and on with other such meaningless and bad "arguments" about the "unique badness" of the Democrats but they would be exactly what your arguments here are -opinionated rants with little substance.
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16th October 2019, 02:22 PM | #147 |
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Since evidence for God is not plain to see, that would be completely different than noting, for example, the president of the United States is a well known Birtherist. You're being disingenuous.
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And you again twist my words around, saying "Implicit in your original argument was the idea that you think that makes them worse than any other party in history". That wasn't implicit in my argument, it was implicit in your misunderstanding.
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Again, I invite you to prove me wrong: Find me a BS belief held by a majority of some other major party, now or in history. While you're at it, find several, because that's the level of gullibility the GOP is currently at. In an effort to get you to forget Birtherism specifically and actually engage on the actual point of more general gullibility, here's another cite for GOP gullibility: 85% of Republicans Reject That Climate Change Is a Serious Problem That Requires Action https://www.esquire.com/news-politic...cans-nbc-news/ |
16th October 2019, 02:48 PM | #148 |
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Anyone still defending Trump I have no respect for. Anyone who ever defended Trump but has seen the light is unlikely to regain my respect. Trump was clearly immoral and not up for the job from day one. He's done worse than this Ukraine stuff but it was lucky we had a courageous whistle blower who called him out on this one of many nefarious activities I'll take it.
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17th October 2019, 09:37 AM | #149 |
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Nope.
You originally said "Not when you persist in demanding cites for what is already plain to see: Massive gullibility in the GOP." You have now changed it to "the President of the United States is a well known Birtherist." Again, you are moving the goalposts to something else when challenged. I don't think "massive gullibility in the GOP," is "plain to see." You may believe this, but it isn't demonstrated. Gullibility would imply that people in the GOP are dumb and will believe anything and I don't think that's the case at all; I think there are other factors at work besides gullibility. But I'll leave it to you to better make your own convincing factual case, if you can/want; however, "it's plain to see," simply won't cut it.
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But any way, if "gullibility" as demonstrated by belief in conspiracy theories is so important to you, I don't see how you can dismiss the fact that a significant amount of Democrats also believe in Birtherism and their own weird little conspiracies. In fact, it's the very fact that Americans in general believe in conspiracy theories so much that tells me that I don't really have to worry too much about it. No major party has made a conspiracy theory the cornerstone of their platform and so I don't get too worked up about such trivial nonsense.
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So why isn't it enough that I acknowledge the GOP has issues? Why must they be unique in their badness? What does that even mean? Do you think it means that I should reject conservatism and embrace the progressive Democratic Party?
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17th October 2019, 11:32 AM | #150 |
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No, I am pointing out that no cite is required because both statements: 1) Trump is a birther, and 2) Birthers are common in the GOP, are obvious. You really shouldn't need a cite for those facts--If you were paying attention you'd already know.
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And it's "plain to see" because I provided the polls you asked for.
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1) Even if things were absolutely identical in American history 20, 30, or 130 years before, we still have the right to complain about things that are still wrong, and 2) Nothing in history is ever duplicated precisely. Even if we were going through a pro/anti slavery Civil War fight now in the early 21st century it would be completely different (unique!) from the 1860s: Different weapons. Different media. Different communications. I continue to claim that even if the Republican/Trump malfeasance currently infecting America was merely the 15th iteration of the same in the course of history, this time is unique for the same reason all the other times were unique. It's unique now, specifically because of the social media vector that propaganda and misinformation campaigns are now using to spread BS unlike ever before. My ultimate point is: STFU already with the claim there is nothing to be alarmed about until things are uniquely bad. Do you disagree?
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Again. |
17th October 2019, 11:39 AM | #151 |
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17th October 2019, 11:49 AM | #152 |
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17th October 2019, 07:50 PM | #153 |
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I do, however, need a cite for what you actually argued: "Not when you persist in demanding cites for what is already plain to see: Massive gullibility in the GOP." You keep moving the goalposts . . .
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What you are doing is, basically, telling us the things that concern you about the GOP. That is a far different and, frankly, uninteresting subject.
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Guess what? I don't care about that argument. You are free to make any such weird distinction in your mind about how unique the modern GOP is. I would even agree with that to some extent but only in the sense that this is a unique time in American History: never before has information been so easily disseminated through social media and other channels. However, I would not agree that belief in BS makes the modern GOP unique since conspiratorial thinking is such a big part of the larger American culture and has been since the Founding.
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To hear many arguments on this forum, Trump and the GOP are existential threats to America to a level that people are actually frightened. Any little thing the GOP or Trump does is cited as evidence. I find those arguments to be hyperbolic. We are going to be fine. Which is not to say that I approve of or support what Trump and the GOP are doing, only that I don't find it to be some catastrophe in the making. America is much stronger than that.
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1)The Democrats' embrace of the BS involved in remote psychiatric evaluations of Donald Trump is an example of "dumb things Democrats espouse." They shouldn't encourage that quackery; they should focus on the actual stuff Trump does. Calling him "Dangerously mentally ill," is nothing but an ad hom based on inappropriate and unethical application of medical science. 2)Democratic Socialism is a dumb thing the Democrats embrace that I am actually worried about because too many people in the party want free stuff but they don't have a workable plan to actually enact it. I contrast this with the Birtherism BS that really shouldn't be a cause for concern because 1)It's long over now and 2)Nothing came of it.
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I'm kinda tired of it, honestly. But I'll leave this here just to see what you think about it. . .
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17th October 2019, 07:52 PM | #154 |
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As an avid "Trumper" I find your lack of enthusiasm for our current POTUS disheartening.
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17th October 2019, 07:54 PM | #155 |
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There are progressives even today who still believe in communism, and in political violence. It's astonishing that something as insignificant as birtherism even registers on the outrage scale.
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17th October 2019, 08:32 PM | #156 |
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17th October 2019, 08:38 PM | #157 |
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17th October 2019, 08:46 PM | #158 |
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17th October 2019, 08:51 PM | #159 |
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17th October 2019, 08:53 PM | #160 |
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