IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Bush v. Gore , judicial activism , political gaffes , republicans , Roper v. Simmons , supreme court decisions , tom delay

Reply
Old 20th April 2005, 07:48 AM   #1
Brown
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,984
De Lay Sticks Foot in Mouth ... Again

From CNN and AP:
Quote:
House Majority Leader Tom DeLay says Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy's work from the bench has been outrageous...

DeLay also labeled a lot of the courts' Republican appointees as "judicial activists," a term applied by conservatives to judges they dislike for not following what they call strict interpretations of the Constitution.
...
"Absolutely. We've got Justice Kennedy writing decisions based upon international law, not the Constitution of the United States? That's just outrageous," DeLay told Fox News Radio on Tuesday. "And not only that, but he said in session that he does his own research on the Internet? That is just incredibly outrageous."
Once again, this government official has said something unbelievably stupid. It is shameful that he is a member of the Congress, and doubly shameful that he is a congressional leader.

Where shall I start?

How about with the most "activist" case--by far--in recent years: Bush v. Gore. You will never find in all of the Supreme Court decisions anything more at odds with the Constitution and the democratic process than what the Court did in Bush v. Gore. But DeLay loved what the Court did, because it meant that his bud was assured of getting into the White House. DeLay didn't seem to mind at all that, for this one case, the most "conservative" members decided to act like flaming liberals on acid, setting aside precedent and constitutional principles, and doing what they could to hand the White House to Bush.

And who was responsible for that steaming pile of rubbish from the Supreme Court? Well, the five justices who committed that atrocity wouldn't sign their names to it, but some insiders have said that it was Justice Kennedy who wrote much of the Court's opinion. In addition, there would not have been a majority on the stay (which was a gross injustice in itself) nor on the final decision if not for Justice Kennedy's vote.

(Of course, Justices Rhenquist, O'Connor, Scalia and Thomas are also responsible for the worst decision in the past 100 years, probably the worst in Supreme Court history. For a criticism of Justice Antonin Scalia's hypocritical stance on judicial activism, including his role in Bush v. Gore, see this editorial from the New York Times [reg. req'd, limited time].)

Now, is DeLay right that it is outrageous for Justice Kennedy to write a decision based upon international law, rather than the Constitution of the United States? Of course not. DeLay is merely showing himself to be an ignorant twit, and what is really outrageous is that he holds any public office or position of leadership.

The Supreme Court case DeLay is talking about is Roper v. Simmons, decided last month. Had he bothered to read the opinion, DeLay would have found extensive discussions of constitutional law and United States precedent. In addition, he might have found this:
Quote:
The opinion of the world community, while not controlling our outcome, does provide respected and significant confirmation for our own conclusions.

Over time, from one generation to the next, the Constitution has come to earn the high respect and even, as Madison dared to hope, the veneration of the American people. See The Federalist No. 49, p. 314 (C. Rossiter ed. 1961). The document sets forth, and rests upon, innovative principles original to the American experience, such as federalism; a proven balance in political mechanisms through separation of powers; specific guarantees for the accused in criminal cases; and broad provisions to secure individual freedom and preserve human dignity. These doctrines and guarantees are central to the American experience and remain essential to our present-day self-definition and national identity. Not the least of the reasons we honor the Constitution, then, is because we know it to be our own. It does not lessen our fidelity to the Constitution or our pride in its origins to acknowledge that the express affirmation of certain fundamental rights by other nations and peoples simply underscores the centrality of those same rights within our own heritage of freedom.
This opinion, of course, can be found on the Internet. In fact, one can do a fair bit of legal research using the Internet. To assert, as DeLay did, that it is "incredibly outrageous" for a justice to do his research using the Internet is preposterous in the extreme.
__________________
Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise.
-- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North

"Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice
Brown is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 08:12 AM   #2
Tony
Penultimate Amazing
 
Tony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,410
Re: De Lay Sticks Foot in Mouth ... Again

Quote:
Originally posted by Brown
In fact, one can do a fair bit of legal research using the Internet. To assert, as DeLay did, that it is "incredibly outrageous" for a justice to do his research using the Internet is preposterous in the extreme.
That's what I thought was the wierdest thing. I don't get why it's "outrageous", is Delay really that backwards? Is the internet a "tool of satan"?
__________________
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle

Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain
Tony is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 08:41 AM   #3
Suddenly
No Punting
 
Suddenly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 5,781
Kudos to Brown for having the ability to respond...

I saw that this AM and it threw me to where I couldn't come up with a response... on the whole this is so absurd as to make the brain seize up... So stupid it is hard to respond..

Legal research on the internet as "outrageous." That's just nuts... not often is method of legal research the proper subject of outrage.. What would be outrageous is a bill from a lawyer who didn't use it... I don't even want to begin to think of how much more efficient internet databases are as opposed to hitting the library...

Then the "international law" thing... Ye gads....

I mean...

Quote:
Originally posted by Delay's delusional vision of Kennedy

Thus, even though the clear intent of the framers was that execution of children is a proper government action, we must instead follow the greater and wiser opinion of the French who think it is uncivilized. The framers were mostly ignorant hicks that smelled bad, so their reasoning on the matter fails to be persuasive in light of the opinions of the French and other countries that should rightfully tell us what to do. We need not reach the issue of whether all Americans must upon meeting paths with their moral superiors, bow and kneel before any Frenchman or other Enlightened Person, and leave that question for another day when we want to offend God fearing patriots...


I have trouble reacting to absurdity with anything but absurdity....
Suddenly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 08:52 AM   #4
IllegalArgument
Graduate Poster
 
IllegalArgument's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,895
Just keep handing De Lay rope, he's got a pretty big stack of it already. He'll hang himself soon enough.
IllegalArgument is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 08:56 AM   #5
Brown
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,984
I listened to the entire DeLay interview (it's available at the Fox "News" web site). DeLay wasn't the only dead-head talking; Tony Snow also seemed to be rather deficient in the intelligence department. (It was Snow who introduced the word "outrageous" into the discussion, and Snow agreed that the things DeLay referred to were outrageous.)

DeLay once again referred to the Democrats as a "syndicate," so as to compare them to mobsters bent on evil. To hear DeLay talk, the mean old Democrats see their function in life as getting in the way of progress, opposing things just so they can be opposers. And the Democrats use the courts as their legislature, DeLay said.

What a buffoon.

DeLay remarked at one point, "I'm not a lawyer," and I had to bite my tongue to keep from yelling, "No s***!!" It's amazing that he does not see his lack of knowledge about legal matters to be any impediment to him defining policy for legislative control of the judicial branch.
__________________
Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise.
-- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North

"Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice
Brown is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 08:58 AM   #6
Regnad Kcin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Regnad Kcin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The old Same place
Posts: 11,138
Sounds like he's self-destructing. I shall wipe a tear.
__________________
My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie.
Regnad Kcin is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 09:07 AM   #7
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 17,528
Seeing as DeLay has stated unabashedly that US foriegn policy should be based on the bible, a little bit of confusion about the law and the internet barely ripples the pond of actual reality.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 01:28 PM   #8
LostAngeles
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 10,109
That's it.

There will be a bake sale this weekend. Hopefully we can raise enough money to make Tom DeLay a nice big cup of SHUT. THE. F%$#. UP.

Do his axons fire? Do they fire electrical impulses across the synapses or do they fire retarded ameoba clowns?

Does he have Alzheimer's? Is he going senile? Suffering from dementia? Is it an insult to those who are actually suffering those to suggest that's DeLay's problem?

I... I... What was his opponent in the election? The amalgamted clone of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and Justin Timerblake? People voted for a dead guy over Ashcroft. Who votes for this guy?
LostAngeles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 02:36 PM   #9
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 25,102
Particularly chilling (from the CNN report) :
Quote:
One way would be for the House Judiciary Committee to investigate the clause in the Constitution that says "judges can serve as long as they serve with good behavior," he said. "We want to define what good behavior means. And that's where you have to start."
In other words, subvert the constitutional separation of powers, if I understand him correctly.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 02:54 PM   #10
hgc
Penultimate Amazing
 
hgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 15,892
I am quite saddened that DeLay insists on hastening his departure. Having him as the face of the Republican Congress was the best chance Dems had to make gains next year. Hopefully his stench will linger.
hgc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 03:15 PM   #11
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 25,102
Quote:
Originally posted by hgc
I am quite saddened that DeLay insists on hastening his departure. Having him as the face of the Republican Congress was the best chance Dems had to make gains next year. Hopefully his stench will linger.
His party's still backing him :

Quote:
Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, retorted: "Doesn't the other side have anything to talk about nowadays?"
Well ... yes, Senator, but they'd rather like to talk about this at the moment. And as long as the response has that kind of punch (it hits the scale at "pansy-assed") they'll carry on liking it.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 03:29 PM   #12
DavidJames
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Front Range, CO
Posts: 10,493
Quote:
Originally posted by CapelDodger
His party's still backing him :
As is the White House He will keep his job and leadership position and next election the Republicans will dig out the morality stick and whoop the Democrats up and down with it and all the Red staters will nod...yup those evil, immoral, unethical Democrats, we need more men of God like good 'ol Tom D.
__________________
For 15 years I never put anyone on ignore. I felt it important to see everyone's view point. Finally I realized the value of some views can be measured in negative terms and were personally destructive.
DavidJames is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 03:46 PM   #13
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 25,102
Quote:
Originally posted by DavidJames
As is the White House He will keep his job and leadership position and next election the Republicans will dig out the morality stick and whoop the Democrats up and down with it and all the Red staters will nod...yup those evil, immoral, unethical Democrats, we need more men of God like good 'ol Tom D.
And I was in a good mood for a moment there.
Quote:
Rove said Democrats are attacking DeLay because they have no ideas of their own.

"I think they're just desperate," he said. "They're not offering ideas in the debate, they're not being constructive, and so some of their members are taking potshots at Tom DeLay."
I know Rove is the Prince of Darkness and I fear him. I have looked upon his works and I'm seriously impressed. Clearly this line looks pansy-assed, but the thinking behind it so fiendish it escapes me. And sho' 'nuff, it'll all happen again in 2008.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 04:01 PM   #14
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 21,398
Quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rove said Democrats are attacking DeLay because they have no ideas of their own.
As opposed to Republicans, who come up with such great ideas as "judicial activism" and attacking republican appointed judges.

Suddenly, "no ideas of their own" doesn't sound like such a bad situation.
__________________
Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 04:04 PM   #15
Nyarlathotep
Philosopher
 
Nyarlathotep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 7,503
Quote:
Originally posted by pgwenthold
As opposed to Republicans, who come up with such great ideas as "judicial activism" and attacking republican appointed judges.

Suddenly, "no ideas of their own" doesn't sound like such a bad situation.
Lewis Black once describe the Democratic Party as "The party of No Ideas" and the Republicans as "The party of Bad Ideas"

He's a comedian not a political analyst, but I think it's pretty accurate.
__________________
Why stay sane in a sick world?
Nyarlathotep is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 05:32 PM   #16
hgc
Penultimate Amazing
 
hgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 15,892
Please visit this thread for the rollcall of Swell Republican Ideas.
hgc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 05:34 PM   #17
Tony
Penultimate Amazing
 
Tony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,410
Quote:
Originally posted by DavidJames
As is the White House He will keep his job and leadership position and next election the Republicans will dig out the morality stick and whoop the Democrats up and down with it and all the Red staters will nod...yup those evil, immoral, unethical Democrats, we need more men of God like good 'ol Tom D.
Yep, the great unwashed of the religious reich is really that ignorant.
__________________
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle

Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain
Tony is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 07:31 PM   #18
Solitaire
Neoclinus blanchardi
 
Solitaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,953
Quote:
Originally posted by IllegalArgument
Just keep handing De Lay rope, he's got a pretty big stack of it already. He'll hang himself soon enough.
The man has a very thick neck.
After the hangin' he keeps on talkin'.
__________________

Schrodinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
Don't ask what happened to Schrodinger's dog.
Solitaire is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 07:48 PM   #19
President Bush
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,506

Quote:
The one thing both Republicans and Democrats can agree upon is that Tom DeLay stay on as leader of the House. That's what I call bipartisanship.
President Bush is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 08:47 PM   #20
Brown
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,984
Quote:
Originally posted by LostAngeles
Do his axons fire? Do they fire electrical impulses across the synapses or do they fire retarded ameoba clowns?

Does he have Alzheimer's? Is he going senile? Suffering from dementia? Is it an insult to those who are actually suffering those to suggest that's DeLay's problem?
No, he's drunk.

Drunk with power.

I've seen this sort of thing before, but never to this degree. People on a "power trip" lose their good judgment and most of their sense of self-awareness, and often become incoherent and paranoid. DeLay has all the symptoms of a b@st@rd on a power trip.
__________________
Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise.
-- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North

"Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice
Brown is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 09:07 PM   #21
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 46,328
I am sure the Republicans can't see what the issue is, they make a virtue out of stupidity now.
__________________
We do these things not because they are easy, but because we thought they were going to be easy.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
“Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 09:13 PM   #22
Brown
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,984
Quote:
Originally posted by a_unique_person
I am sure the Republicans can't see what the issue is, they make a virtue out of stupidity now.
I think this is true, in a sense. The Republican party of the past ten years has really lost its moral compass, and cannot distinguish what is a virtue from what is a vice.

They do not see playing to people's stupidity as a vice, but it is.

They REALLY do not see hypocrisy as a vice, but it is.

They do not see that fearmongering is a vice, but it is.

They behave as though "The end justifies the means," and do not see this attitude as a vice, but it is.
__________________
Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise.
-- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North

"Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice
Brown is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 09:30 PM   #23
gethane
Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 142
Re: Re: De Lay Sticks Foot in Mouth ... Again

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony
That's what I thought was the wierdest thing. I don't get why it's "outrageous", is Delay really that backwards? Is the internet a "tool of satan"?
It's the information that you can get on the internet that is the "tool of satan."

I appreciated reading all your responses. Whenever I think of de lay, I just start sputtering and go open a bottle of wine.
gethane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 09:33 PM   #24
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
 
Ladewig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 28,781
Quote:
Originally posted by Brown
No, he's drunk.

Drunk with power.

I've seen this sort of thing before, but never to this degree. People on a "power trip" lose their good judgment and most of their sense of self-awareness, and often become incoherent and paranoid. DeLay has all the symptoms of a b@st@rd on a power trip.

I think that accounts for most of it. The rest is his trying to take the spotlight off of himself and put it on someone else. I predict that he'll be making more and more outragous comments about other people in government.
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.
Ladewig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 09:53 PM   #25
crimresearch
Alumbrado
 
crimresearch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 10,600
Quote:
Originally posted by Brown
No, he's drunk.

Drunk with power.

I've seen this sort of thing before, but never to this degree. People on a "power trip" lose their good judgment and most of their sense of self-awareness, and often become incoherent and paranoid.....
No kidding...that has only been a fact of life for about how many thousands upon thousands of years now?

And people continue to be 'shocked, simply shocked' when those at the top exhibit these behaviors?
And even worse, get into arguments over the behavior of *their* leaders versus the 'bad' ones?

Get over it people....
***** floats, and if you keep looking at the top, that is all you are going to see. It doesn't matter if it is Bush, Clinton, Dean, Delay, Byrd, Nader, Kerry, or Badnarik...they all share that common feature...they are power addicts and attention whores.

You don't make it to these positions by good luck and plucky determination....you get there by being willing to do whatever it takes, and by being a partial psychopath.
And by presenting the voters with as little choice in the matter as possible.
crimresearch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2005, 10:08 PM   #26
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 17,528
Quote:
Originally posted by crimresearch
It doesn't matter if it is Bush, Clinton, Dean, Delay, Byrd, Nader, Kerry, or Badnarik...they all share that common feature...they are power addicts and attention whores.
Despite the element of truth, throwing them all into the same pile is a binary sort of outlook that I reject. DeLay is an extreme fanatic who is disconnected from reality. Badnarik is an extreme fanatic who is disconnected from reality. Even Bush isn't as whacked as these two fringe cases.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2005, 06:31 AM   #27
Suddenly
No Punting
 
Suddenly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 5,781
As per the "good behavior" thing....

I accidently turned on c-span, and there was some "panel discussion" where the idea was seriously brought out that the President should be able to simply call up Judges and tell them to clear out their desk and go home... also suggested impeachment for "judicial arrogance" and suggested that is the problem we are facing today....

The Rebublican party has made its bones the last decade or two mainly by labelling anyone in the center as being dangerously liberal, thus positioning themselves as moderates... and now they seem to be moving on to giving the moderate right the same treatment....

Calling Kennedy out for being a dangerous liberal is just.... words fail me....
Suddenly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2005, 09:21 AM   #28
Regnad Kcin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Regnad Kcin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The old Same place
Posts: 11,138
Quote:
Originally posted by LegalPenguin
...Calling Kennedy out for being a dangerous liberal is just.... words fail me....
I wonder if it isn't a use of the "working the refs" technique as detailed by Eric Alterman in What Liberal Media?

Just as a coach (in basketball, say) will put the refs on guard by questioning their calls or lack thereof--that is, even when not warranted--as an actual component of offensive strategy, political opponents can and often will do much the same. For instance, by utilizing "liberal media" as a pejorative, and screaming it over and over, the right gets reporters, editorialists, producers, etc. to make extra effort to avoid the label, effectively moving them towards the right. Even if they were moderate to begin with.

The current assault on the judiciary by the right wing may simply be a page out of their playbook. Don't want to be harassed? Do it our way.
__________________
My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie.
Regnad Kcin is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2005, 09:28 AM   #29
Tricky
Briefly immortal
 
Tricky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: The Group W Bench
Posts: 43,587
This is very telling. I visit this site often, and on most issues, cartoonists line up on either side of an issue (with some sort of in the middle.) For DeLay, not one single person seems to be defending him.

But actually, I want him to hang around, embarassing the Republicans for just as long as he can.
Tricky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2005, 11:53 AM   #30
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 17,528
Quote:
Originally posted by varwoche
DeLay is an extreme fanatic
For instance, his main mission:
Quote:
DeLay: bring us back to the Constitution and to Absolute Truth that has been manipulated and destroyed by a liberal worldview.
And this gem:
Quote:
Will this country accept the worldviews of humanism, materialism, sexism, naturalism, postmodernism or any of the other -isms? Or will we march forward with a biblical worldview, a worldview that says God is our creator, that man is a sinner, and that we will save this country by changing the hearts and minds of Americans? . . . We have the House and the Senate. All we need is the presidency
article
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2005, 12:18 PM   #31
crimresearch
Alumbrado
 
crimresearch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 10,600
Quote:
Originally posted by Tricky
This is very telling. I visit this site often, and on most issues, cartoonists line up on either side of an issue (with some sort of in the middle.) For DeLay, not one single person seems to be defending him.

But actually, I want him to hang around, embarassing the Republicans for just as long as he can.
With rhetoric like this?

'Justice Ginsburg is a prime example of a judge who sees the bench as a platform to advance her own extremist views.'

and

'Justice Souter is a judge who is very eager to make law from the bench.'
crimresearch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2005, 12:41 PM   #32
Tony
Penultimate Amazing
 
Tony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,410
Quote:
Originally posted by varwoche
For instance, his main mission:
And this gem: article
Thanks for posting that. Man, that guy is real trash.
__________________
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle

Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain
Tony is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2005, 04:07 PM   #33
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 25,102
Quote:
Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
I wonder if it isn't a use of the "working the refs" technique as detailed by Eric Alterman in What Liberal Media?
To push the analogy probably too far, the coach's behaviour affects the players, who have faith in the coach. They then take a righteously bellicose attitude towards the ref, who becomes further intimidated. For "coaches" read Rove and his pack of little demons, who know exactly what they're doing, and "players" DeLay and his country club buddies. There are, of course, players who fully understand what's going on, but if it helps the team, hey ...
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2005, 04:14 PM   #34
LostAngeles
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 10,109
Quote:
Originally posted by CapelDodger
To push the analogy probably too far, the coach's behaviour affects the players, who have faith in the coach. They then take a righteously bellicose attitude towards the ref, who becomes further intimidated. For "coaches" read Rove and his pack of little demons, who know exactly what they're doing, and "players" DeLay and his country club buddies. There are, of course, players who fully understand what's going on, but if it helps the team, hey ...
I was expecting your analogy to have the players be the members of the public who buy into this because they have faith in their "Godly" politicians to protect them from <strike>sexularism</strike> secularism. Nice typo, me.

Not trying to detract from your analogy, though. Sorry.
LostAngeles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2005, 04:39 PM   #35
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 25,102
DeLay and his ilk seem convinced that their country has been stolen from them by Franklin Delano. They haven't yet accepted that he's dead. Not only was it stolen then, it's been continuously stolen since and continues to be stolen to this day. Ordinary Americans - such as DeLAy - have been unable to prevent this by electing Eisenhomer , Nixon, Reagan, Bush I, Bush II to run the place for most of that time. No sirree. Kennedy may not have ruled long, but he was a super-villain and stole the country. Johnson was a sick man who, to his credit, bombed crap out of a foreign region, but he stole the country. Nobody could stop him. Carter - four years of cultural larceny. And of course the greatest super-villains of them all, the Clintons.

Nothing could be done. Great men like McCarthy, McArthur and Kissinger were helpless against liberal power. The right-thinking, gut-following, salt-of-the-earth American majority blessed with the levers of the greatest democracy history will ever know : chaff before the wind. Even the totemic Reagan failed to quell the mighty magics of The Liberals. But all that's about to change!

Barry Goldwater told us so.

Wise up, people. A Democratic gets in next. The various crapstorms heading America's way will be either staved-off until then or brought forward into 2009-12. And then the end of democracy in the US of A. You may not have heard it here first, but if you did, remember you heard it here first.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2005, 05:21 PM   #36
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 46,328
Quote:
Originally posted by Brown
I think this is true, in a sense. The Republican party of the past ten years has really lost its moral compass, and cannot distinguish what is a virtue from what is a vice.

They do not see playing to people's stupidity as a vice, but it is.

They REALLY do not see hypocrisy as a vice, but it is.

They do not see that fearmongering is a vice, but it is.

They behave as though "The end justifies the means," and do not see this attitude as a vice, but it is.
I think that all parties can be guilty of those sins at various times, being stupid is a recent innovation.
__________________
We do these things not because they are easy, but because we thought they were going to be easy.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
“Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2005, 06:12 PM   #37
SlippyToad
Critical Thinker
 
SlippyToad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 382
Quote:
Originally posted by CapelDodger
And I was in a good mood for a moment there.I know Rove is the Prince of Darkness and I fear him. I have looked upon his works and I'm seriously impressed. Clearly this line looks pansy-assed, but the thinking behind it so fiendish it escapes me. And sho' 'nuff, it'll all happen again in 2008.
Rove is not superhuman, nor is he particularly more intelligent than you, I, or anybody else. He is riding a wave of cronyism and good-ole-boy influence which is all that has ever sustained Bush in office. These peoples' ideas looked good next to Democrats because they hadn't made any key decisions yet. I am in no way letting my guard down these days, but it's a simple fact that the power to frame the debate has escaped Rove's control.

Real things have happened, and people have seen, and continue to see, ever more clearly what the plans of the Republicans really entail. And they do not care for them. He is counting on his aura of invincibility to protect himself and his party -- and it increasingly looks like that aura was an illusion. People are figuring out that a President who can't even hack a town meeting without hand-picking every single participant has a problem communicating with the public.

A few weeks ago I saw a little cluster of green signs go up urging me to save social security and support President Bush. Those signs are quietly vanishing. He is losing, and his party is losing, and the best thing about this to me is that none of them have the emotional maturity to handle it with any grace. It's revealing their true character -- which of course perceptive people have known the nature of all along.
__________________
"We will stay the course." -- George W. Bush, July 10, 2003.

"We will stay the course." -- George W. Bush, August 30, 2006

"We've never been stay the course." -- George W. Bush, October 22, 2006
SlippyToad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2010, 08:57 AM   #38
Brown
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,984
Curious how things have changed in five years. Tom DeLay has danced his way out of government. But his wailing and gnashing of teeth is perhaps about to be renewed, as the US Supreme Court today said that a juvenile offender may not be sentenced to life in prison without parole for a nonhomicide crime, under the Eighth Amendment’s Cruel and Unusual Punishments Clause. The case is Graham v. Florida and it is available on the Supreme Court's web site.

As with the Roper case, the opinion was written by Justice Kennedy.

As in the Roper case, the Court made mention of how other nations approach the issue. The Court went out of its way to stress, however, that international consensus is not binding:
Quote:
There is support for our conclusion in the fact that, in continuing to impose life without parole sentences on juveniles who did not commit homicide, the United States adheres to a sentencing practice rejected the world over. This observation does not control our decision. The judgments of other nations and the international community are not dispositive as to the meaning of the Eighth Amendment. But "'[t]he climate of international opinion concerning the acceptability of a particular punishment'" is also "'not irrelevant.'" [Authority.] The Court has looked beyond our Nation's borders for support for its independent conclusion that a particular punishment is cruel and unusual. [Authority.]

Today we continue that longstanding practice in noting the global consensus against the sentencing practice in question.
...
The Court has treated the laws and practices of other nations and international agreements as relevant to the Eighth Amendment not because those norms are binding or controlling but because the judgment of the world's nations that a particular sentencing practice is inconsistent with basic principles of decency demonstrates that the Court's rationale has respected reasoning to support it.
Considering the outcry last time this happened, it might be said that Justice Kennedy is showing some guts here.

Justice Stevens wrote an opinion in which he tweaked Justice Thomas for having a problem with the concept of evolution (but not the biological kind):
Quote:
While JUSTICE THOMAS would apparently not rule out a death sentence for a $50 theft by a 7-year-old, ... the Court wisely rejects his static approach to the law. Standards of decency have evolved since 1980. They will never stop doing so.
Chief Justice Roberts agreed that the outcome was correct, but could not agree with the rationale. He had basically no comment on the effect of foreign law, preferring instead to concentrate on domestic law. Although he felt the punishment was out of line in this case, he thought there might be some cases in which juveniles did some really nasty crimes and really ought to be thrown in the pokey for life.

Justice Thomas (apart from having a howler or two in his opinion), shows his disdain for the foreign law point by discussing the question in a footnote.
__________________
Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise.
-- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North

"Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice

Last edited by Brown; 17th May 2010 at 09:08 AM. Reason: Corrected errors of attribution
Brown is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2010, 11:24 AM   #39
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 21,398
Hmmm, if Stevens thinks the court "wisely" rejects Thomas's approach, does that mean he thinks Thomas is not so wise?

BTW, what was the final tally?
__________________
Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2010, 12:36 PM   #40
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
 
Darth Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,527
Originally Posted by Brown View Post
Chief Justice Roberts agreed that the outcome was correct, but could not agree with the rationale.

...

Although he felt the punishment was out of line in this case, he thought there might be some cases in which juveniles did some really nasty crimes and really ought to be thrown in the pokey for life.
IMO, pokey in life with no chance for parole is less merciful than execution.

In fewer words, do not hide behind age as an excuse. Take each case on its merits.

What a concept.

DR
__________________
Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission.
"Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis
Darth Rotor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:28 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.