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Old 17th May 2012, 09:55 AM   #121
jammonius
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Yes: When a person says he heard a plane and didn't see it, I claim that it is absurd and utterly illogical to infer from that statement that the person believes there was no plane.
Jack,

Thank you for making a proper claim. Please verify that you are speaking of eye witness Asst. Comm. Stephen Gregory. That is who I am assuming you are referring to. I posted his account in the OP.

Here is the OP quote for ready reference:

"Q. Did you see or hear the second plane before
it hit the World Trade Center?
A. I never actually saw the plane, but l heard
it. You could hear it coming in and then we heard the
explosion and you could hear the roar of the plane
coming in. At first I didn't realize it was a plane.
I thought it was like the roar of fire, like something
had just incinerated, like a gas tank or an oil tank.
It sounded like a tremendous roar and then you heard
boom and then there was a big fire, a lot of fire, a
big fireball. I never actually saw a plane hit the
building. I never saw that. I saw it on television,
but I never saw it while I was standing there."
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...IC/9110008.PDF pg21/25

If you apply the analytic technique employed by LashL, I think you'll be able to see that he is not unequivocally saying "he heard a plane" as you claim. In the interest of brevity, I won't here elaborate this claim of equivocality further, as the actual statement is quoted and I think you'll readily agree that his statement about what he heard is equivocal or ambiguous, at best. It can actually be interpreted as him saying he did not hear a plane, correct?
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Old 17th May 2012, 09:58 AM   #122
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Is jammonius a proponent of holographic planes?

If so, I honestly don't understand what significance "this person didn't see a plane" has as support for that particular fantasy. The implication of the argument is, obviously, that someone didn't see a plane when they should have seen a plane. However, with the whole holographic plane nonsense, it just comes off as this additionally bizarre claim that the holographic projection was simply not perceptible to certain individuals.

It's just pure nonsense all around.
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Old 17th May 2012, 09:59 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
NO PLANE WITNESS COUNT: (Ganci,Gregory,jr343,Pfeifer,Sandvik) 5
Firefighter David Sandvik

"I never heard the motor of the
plane, the sound of the engines. We just heard the
explosion, you felt the explosion, and looking straight
up and seeing that fireball that you see on the news,
but we're underneath looking up now at it."


Source: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...IC/9110375.PDF pg 4
They were right under the explosion, but a plane didn't come crashing down on them. Hmmm.
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Old 17th May 2012, 09:59 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
What you mention is the stuff of "reasonable doubt" is it not?
No. Relying on the testimony of people who did not see what happened is not reasonable by any sane definition. It might give the judge reason to doubt your sanity, but that's about all.
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:02 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
You forgot the part where the defendant has confessed and plead guilty in court.
Are you talking about Moussaui? The guy who was wearing a stun-belt during his testimony?

Why do you trust his words, anyway?
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:02 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Show us the fake planes in the videos.
Been there, done that. I do not claim all videos are fake. I claim some are. I claim most are inconclusive.

I did all that six ways to Sunday in a thread that I provided the OP for that ran for 3875 posts:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...175654&page=97

If you start from the beginning and go through that thread, you will find an assessment of all 44 known video clips of the shadow thingy said to have been, but not proven, FL 175. This thread is different. It involves posting up eye witness accounts, sourced and linked. So far, debunkers have not done much posting, have they?

Last edited by jammonius; 17th May 2012 at 10:03 AM.
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:04 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
Been there, done that. I do not claim all videos are fake. I claim some are. I claim most are inconclusive.

I did all that six ways to Sunday in a thread that I provided the OP for that ran for 3875 posts:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...175654&page=97

If you start from the beginning and go through that thread, you will find an assessment of all 44 known video clips of the shadow thingy said to have been, but not proven, FL 175. This thread is different. It involves posting up eye witness accounts, sourced and linked. So far, debunkers have not done much posting, have they?
Were you able to prove that any one of these videos was, on its own, fake? By this I do not mean that you infer faked videos based on multiple videos from different angles.
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:04 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
They were right under the explosion, but a plane didn't come crashing down on them. Hmmm.
No kidding that's some real luck for them. If the plane had been any lower it would have killed them. Of course, it's tragic for the people on the floors above where the impact happened.
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:08 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
Been there, done that. I do not claim all videos are fake. I claim some are. I claim most are inconclusive.

I did all that six ways to Sunday in a thread that I provided the OP for that ran for 3875 posts:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...175654&page=97

If you start from the beginning and go through that thread, you will find an assessment of all 44 known video clips of the shadow thingy said to have been, but not proven, FL 175. This thread is different. It involves posting up eye witness accounts, sourced and linked. So far, debunkers have not done much posting, have they?
I looked at the first couple. You posted the wrong images, those were the real planes. I wanted to see images of the fake planes. Maybe you need to get two folders on your desk top, one for the real images and one for the fake images. That way you won't confuse them.
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:09 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
I think you'll readily agree that his statement about what he heard is equivocal or ambiguous, at best. It can actually be interpreted as him saying he did not hear a plane, correct?
No. Wrong. That's the very thing which cannot be inferred.

On the contrary, the fact that he explains that he was initially unable to discern that what he was hearing was indeed another plane, yet he refers in his statement to its being a plane directly implies that he does in fact, at the time of his statement, believe it was a plane. Therefore he cannot be inferred to be a no-planer as the two states of mind described are 1) he was at first unaware that what he was hearing was a plane and 2) he later believes that what he heard was a plane. Neither of those is consistent with believing there was no plane.

I think you'll readily agree this must be the case.
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:11 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
They were right under the explosion, but a plane didn't come crashing down on them. Hmmm.
You may have noticed that 110 story building that prevented that.
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:11 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
jammonius:

How did you "confirm and validate" your evidence?
The eye witness accounts I am relying on are properly transcribed, officially authorized statements. They are business records. They are not newspaper accounts or blog postings, with the exception of jr343's statement that was posted to a website at my suggestion.

To be sure, that is not an authenticated statement. I have, however, used the same technique in this forum where at least three people have said they were eyewitnesses. The most recent one just posted that claim today; but, alas, that person would not post up any details, which is fine with me.

As I'm willing to count eyewitnesses who post their claims on this forum, I am inclined to include jr343's claim, even though it is not authenticated in the same way as the other 4 that I have posted.

So far, debunkers have posted 0 that match that standard of authenticity. But, I am willing to openly acknowledge there are some authentic witnesses who claim they saw some kind of plane or flying object. I've said that.

In fact, I posted up Scott Holowach. But, as I posted him, it doesn't count towards the debunker tabulation because the debunkers didn't post him up, I did.

Note, too, that it is very rare for debunkers to even acknowledge there are people who didn't see a plane or who claim they didn't observe (see, hear) information consistent with one. For some reason, that is a very difficult thing for debunkers to do.

Look at it this way, if I can say there are eyewitnesses who said they saw a plane, why shouldn't debunkers be able to say 'there are eyewitnesses who were in a position to see one and didn't think there was one there'?

I don't think it would hurt debunkers to make that acknowledgment, do you?
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:13 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
Been there, done that. I do not claim all videos are fake. I claim some are. I claim most are inconclusive.

I did all that six ways to Sunday in a thread that I provided the OP for that ran for 3875 posts:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...175654&page=97

If you start from the beginning and go through that thread, you will find an assessment of all 44 known video clips of the shadow thingy said to have been, but not proven, FL 175. This thread is different. It involves posting up eye witness accounts, sourced and linked. So far, debunkers have not done much posting, have they?
How exactly do you account for the noise in your little insane theory of holograms, anyway?
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:15 AM   #134
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Quote:
Note, too, that it is very rare for debunkers to even acknowledge there are people who didn't see a plane

You lie. Of course not everybody in NYC saw the planes. Some were inside the towers at the time. However, when you HEAR the noise, then look up and see an explosion and a friggin jet engine lands at your feet, it doesn't take much detective work to figure out what just happened.
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:16 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
How exactly do you account for the noise in your little insane theory of holograms, anyway?
Invisible surround speakers.
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:16 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
A. I never actually saw the plane, but l heard
it. You could hear it coming in and then we heard the
explosion and you could hear the roar of the plane
coming in. At first I didn't realize it was a plane.
I thought it was like the roar of fire, like something
had just incinerated, like a gas tank or an oil tank.
It sounded like a tremendous roar and then you heard
boom and then there was a big fire, a lot of fire, a
big fireball. I never actually saw a plane hit the
building. I never saw that. I saw it on television,
but I never saw it while I was standing there."[/b]
This is entirely consistant with an aircraft impact. They were in NYC, surrounded by tall, noise-baffling buildings. They were surrounded by very large trucks with very loud engines, some of them running full-blast to run pumps. They would not have heard the plane coming in time to look up.

Even if they did know something was coming, they would not all have been in a position to see it. A few feet to either side of a structure would be enough to block one's line of sight to an aircraft even as big as a 767.

Quote:
If you apply the analytic technique employed by LashL, I think you'll be able to see that he is not unequivocally saying "he heard a plane" as you claim. In the interest of brevity, I won't here elaborate this claim of equivocality further, as the actual statement is quoted and I think you'll readily agree that his statement about what he heard is equivocal or ambiguous, at best. It can actually be interpreted as him saying he did not hear a plane, correct?
No.
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:16 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
Those who didn't see a plane didn't see the plane. Those who did, prove the plane existed.
Those who didn't see a plane when looking at the towers before the south tower exploded, prove beyond all doubt that no real plane impacted it.
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:17 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
No. Wrong. That's the very thing which cannot be inferred.

On the contrary, the fact that he explains that he was initially unable to discern that what he was hearing was indeed another plane, yet he refers in his statement to its being a plane directly implies that he does in fact, at the time of his statement, believe it was a plane. Therefore he cannot be inferred to be a no-planer as the two states of mind described are 1) he was at first unaware that what he was hearing was a plane and 2) he later believes that what he heard was a plane. Neither of those is consistent with believing there was no plane.

I think you'll readily agree this must be the case.

Jack,

I think you're going too far afield in the above. However, fear not, I don't tbink LashL will take you to task for saying, by way of example, "another plane" in a context where no such thing has been established. Furthermore, you seem unaware that the drill here is not to speculate about what people "believe". The point here is to assess what information they provide, not their beliefs. Stephen Gregory plainly describes what he heard in a context where those sounds were not those of a plane, as per his description, and certainly not a widebody jetliner <1000ft above ground @ 500+mph.
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:17 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
I don't think it would hurt debunkers to make that acknowledgment, do you?
It wouldn't hurt for no-planers to acknowledge reality either. Well, when they're capable.
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:20 AM   #140
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http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0110/images/m04.jpg

"And then heard this noise that seemed to come from everywhere but didn't...had no idea what it was and then the south tower just exploded, it just it just, it just blew up. And somebody said that was a plane and I was like, "I was underneath it, I was looking at the tower, I had my camera in my hand, I heard the noise, I never saw the airplane."

David, did not hear or see an approaching plane and didn't photograph one. He would've heard the roaring engines and plane coming in at over 500 mph. NO REAL PLANE HIT THE SOUTH TOWER.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHrbQ...8D8AE&index=25
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:23 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0110/images/m04.jpg

"And then heard this noise that seemed to come from everywhere but didn't...had no idea what it was and then the south tower just exploded, it just it just, it just blew up. And somebody said that was a plane and I was like, "I was underneath it, I was looking at the tower, I had my camera in my hand, I heard the noise, I never saw the airplane."

David, did not hear or see an approaching plane and didn't photograph one. He would've heard the roaring engines and plane coming in at over 500 mph. NO REAL PLANE HIT THE SOUTH TOWER.

http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...noplanepic.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHrbQ...8D8AE&index=25
This is consistent with two of my interviewees who were very near the WTC and looking at the buildings but who did not see a plane.
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:24 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
The eye witness accounts I am relying on are properly transcribed, officially authorized statements. They are business records. They are not newspaper accounts or blog postings, with the exception of jr343's statement that was posted to a website at my suggestion.
:
How did you verify this? How do you know these statements were not just placed to make the "official Story" look bad?

You're not much of a skeptic when you like how something sounds.

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Old 17th May 2012, 10:24 AM   #143
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If the plane was a holographic projection, how come some people could not see it?
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:26 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
This is consistent with two of my interviewees who were very near the WTC and looking at the buildings but who did not see a plane.
And inconsistent with the thousands you didn't interview. So frikken what?
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:26 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
you seem unaware that the drill here is not to speculate about what people "believe".
I was merely following your lead, after you declared he was a no-planer.
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:27 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
If the plane was a holographic projection, how come some people could not see it?
I suspect you are a no-hologrammer.
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:29 AM   #147
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Cloud, obliterates the absurd conclusion that dumb arabs really flew planes into buildings on 911. His real-time account combined with 4 news broadcasts that show an object 5-10 times smaller than a chopper prove the NRPT. He says it over and over and over. He was watching the towers and didn't see any plane because there was no plane to see.

"I just caught the second explosion on videotape...No, a bomb, I saw it, no plane hit nothin', the building exploded from the other tower floors down."



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2unT...ure=plpp_video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTkzxaHAcNc
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:32 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
Greetings Noah,

Although I think you err in referencing the bolded matters as a lie, the part that you acknowledge as "truth" is actually rather damning of the common storyline. Even that degree of acknowledgment is often lacking from the debunker community as a whole. I sure hope you don't end up getting shunned or scolded by your colleagues.
Why would they be "shunned or scolded"? The part that Noah bolded as being a lie is a lie, they absolutely did check for part numbers and other identifying marks.
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:33 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
This is consistent with two of my interviewees who were very near the WTC and looking at the buildings but who did not see a plane.
There was a discernable orb. I don't what it was besides that it was circular and flew behind/between the towers before tower 2 exploded. Look up, wnbc (chopper 4) NY1, WB11, and CBS. Only cbs didn't air live.
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:34 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
Were you able to prove that any one of these videos was, on its own, fake? By this I do not mean that you infer faked videos based on multiple videos from different angles.
Yes, he proved it the same way you prove your arguments. You repeat them often, and then by magic they become true.

What IS the proper number anyway?
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:34 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
"And then heard this noise ...[/i]."

David, did not hear ....
Heh. Funny.

From the vantage point of that photo he would only have had to blink and he'd have missed seeing the plane.
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:35 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
Cloud, obliterates the absurd conclusion that dumb arabs really flew planes into buildings on 911. His real-time account combined with 4 news broadcasts that show an object 5-10 times smaller than a chopper prove the NRPT. He says it over and over and over. He was watching the towers and didn't see any plane because there was no plane to see.

"I just caught the second explosion on videotape...No, a bomb, I saw it, no plane hit nothin', the building exploded from the other tower floors down."

http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...FSoupcom-1.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2unT...ure=plpp_video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTkzxaHAcNc
So you're trying to convince us that no planes hit the buildings by showing us a video of planes hitting the buildings? What are you getting at here? Is this some weird phenomenology thing or something? It seems rather a round about way to convince us of something.

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Old 17th May 2012, 10:36 AM   #153
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Is it the first sign of the apocalypse when they throw open the gates of the Asylum?
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:39 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
There was a discernable orb. I don't what it was besides that it was circular and flew behind/between the towers before tower 2 exploded. Look up, wnbc (chopper 4) NY1, WB11, and CBS. Only cbs didn't air live.
See what happens when the door is left open?
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:39 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
So you're trying to convince us that no planes hit the buildings by showing us a video of planes hitting the buildings? What are you getting at here? Is this some weird phenomenology thing or something? It seems rather a round about what to convince us of something.
I expect he's just omitted the link that shows it's a scientifically established fact that Arabs are incapable of flying due to their severe allergy to clouds. Or something.
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:41 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
So you're trying to convince us that no planes hit the buildings by showing us a video of planes hitting the buildings? What are you getting at here? Is this some weird phenomenology thing or something? It seems rather a round about way to convince us of something.
I strongly suspect a Poe.
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:44 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
Cloud, obliterates the absurd conclusion that dumb arabs really flew planes into buildings on 911. His real-time account combined with 4 news broadcasts that show an object 5-10 times smaller than a chopper prove the NRPT. He says it over and over and over. He was watching the towers and didn't see any plane because there was no plane to see.

"I just caught the second explosion on videotape...No, a bomb, I saw it, no plane hit nothin', the building exploded from the other tower floors down."

http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...FSoupcom-1.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2unT...ure=plpp_video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTkzxaHAcNc
Oh look! Another truther that doesn't understand perspective.

Do you think the moon is nearly the size of the sun?
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:55 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
Cloud, obliterates the absurd conclusion that dumb arabs really flew planes into buildings on 911. His real-time account combined with 4 news broadcasts that show an object 5-10 times smaller than a chopper prove the NRPT. He says it over and over and over. He was watching the towers and didn't see any plane because there was no plane to see.

"I just caught the second explosion on videotape...No, a bomb, I saw it, no plane hit nothin', the building exploded from the other tower floors down."

http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...FSoupcom-1.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2unT...ure=plpp_video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTkzxaHAcNc
That's pretty weird. At about 11:00:24 in the gif you posted (according to the time stamp on the video) a plane comes into the picture from the left and hits the building.

It's pretty clear. What are you suggesting with this? The plane in the video proves there was no plane?

ETA: "This video shows no plane hitting a building. And when I say NO PLANE, I mean ONLY ONE."

Last edited by swright777; 17th May 2012 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 17th May 2012, 11:13 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Redtail View Post
Oh look! Another truther that doesn't understand perspective.

Do you think the moon is nearly the size of the sun?
The moon is just a giant balloon. That's why it looks bigger when it's closer to the horizon.

I'z unda standz the science.


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Old 17th May 2012, 11:14 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by swright777 View Post
That's pretty weird. At about 11:00:24 in the gif you posted (according to the time stamp on the video) a plane comes into the picture from the left and hits the building.
Why on Earth would any sane person post an image of what is obviously a plane hitting the building to show that a plane didn't hit the building? Am I missing something?
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