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Old 19th May 2012, 05:10 PM   #441
Dash80
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Never under estimate the "stones" of an anonymous idiot in the internet.
I posted my account, guess we'll have to wait and see how many ways he tries to twist it.
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Old 19th May 2012, 06:02 PM   #442
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Originally Posted by 000063 View Post
Strange. Multiple witnesses could tell it was a plane. Yet you keep harping on about low-res videos filmed from a long way away, not the closer ones.
Anyone who said they saw a plane is debunked by the 4 news broadcasts that consistently aired an orb coming from west of the towers.
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Old 19th May 2012, 06:07 PM   #443
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Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
STOP MISREPRESENTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF...IT IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE


Sorry to "yell", but you seem to be having "difficulity" understanding this
You have the burden of proving planes and you haven't shown a speck of sustainable evidence. Forget the witnesses because they aren't needed to disprove your plane fantasy. No markings=no plane. No wings=no plane. It goes on and on and on.
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Old 19th May 2012, 06:09 PM   #444
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Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
So you really don't care that no one believes you?...to the point of not even attempting to "back up" your claims?

Why do you even bother to friggin' post?
you really don't care that there were no real planes...to the point of not even attempting to "back up" your plane myth? You people are so mockable.
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Old 19th May 2012, 06:14 PM   #445
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
LOL. Back to your one pony trick of using your cell phone to take a 3rd generation video of your 1982 television screen playing a 4th generation video tape.

Why don't you show the hi-res video? You were asked this numerous times before your little vacation and you never did produce. Will you be doing so now?
Bring it on Rambo. Show us a higher rez vid of the orb. We don't need any better because wnbc is the best footage available and the longest. No plane from the southwest over the bay, just a floating dot from west.
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Old 19th May 2012, 06:17 PM   #446
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LOL. Still running like a rabbit from posting the hi-rez video. Why is that? It can only strengthen your delusion case, can't it?

You may take your pick of any of the hi-rez ones that have already been posted in this thread.
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Old 19th May 2012, 06:21 PM   #447
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Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
OMG, the towers are blurry!
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Old 19th May 2012, 06:21 PM   #448
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These two guys were looking at the towers and wondered how it just exploded. You can see the quick edit after the orb appears for a brief moment. The edit advances to well after the explosion.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHaVi...ure=plpp_video
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Old 19th May 2012, 06:27 PM   #449
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Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
Did you read the caption at YouTube? It says "2nd plane impact".
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Old 19th May 2012, 06:37 PM   #450
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Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
You have the burden...
As long as you misrepresent the burden of proof, there is no reason to continue here...
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Old 19th May 2012, 06:47 PM   #451
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Originally Posted by Dash80 View Post
Ok, fair enough.

A large blue-looking plane streaked by. I also thought I saw a flash of red and being a Brit it made me think of a BA plane's livery. The plane hit the South Tower within about 3 seconds of seeing it. We evacuated our building right after this.
Anneliese,

What a harrowing experience. I predict Jammonious will toss a courtly, very gentlemanly word salad that invites you to believe what you *think* you saw as long as you care to, but will seize upon the fact that you did not use pedantically precise wording to the effect that your gaze was transfixed upon the plane from the instant you saw it until it impacted the tower. He will certainly use your "misidentification" as proof that whatever you think you saw couldn't be flight 175.

As I said before, it's really hopeless and pointless, he will never acknowledge reality as long as Judy Wood's checks clear (not theory, fact).
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Old 19th May 2012, 06:49 PM   #452
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Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
you really don't care that there were no real planes...to the point of not even attempting to "back up" your plane myth? You people are so mockable.
It's no myth that RADAR tracked these planes into the towers. It's no myth that plane parts were found all around the area of the towers. It's no myth that no-planers are so mockable that they can't produce real evidence. It's no myth that no-planers don't care about reality. Get over yourself.
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Old 19th May 2012, 06:54 PM   #453
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Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
These two guys were looking at the towers and wondered how it just exploded. You can see the quick edit after the orb appears for a brief moment. The edit advances to well after the explosion.

http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...geyeditpic.jpg
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...GIFSoupcom.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHaVi...ure=plpp_video
This is evidence? There's crap on the window that you think is an orb. What a joke...You fail.
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Old 19th May 2012, 07:05 PM   #454
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Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
You have the burden of proving planes and you haven't shown a speck of sustainable evidence. Forget the witnesses because they aren't needed to disprove your plane fantasy. No markings=no plane. No wings=no plane. It goes on and on and on.
Your problem here is that planes impacted the buildings. Your ideas just aren't going anywhere until you account for the plane impacts.
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Old 19th May 2012, 07:06 PM   #455
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Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
you really don't care that there were no real planes...to the point of not even attempting to "back up" your plane myth? You people are so mockable.
Well, the whole planes hit the buildings thing is backed up with planes hitting the buildings. The videos you post show planes hitting buildings. As I've explained to you, it's an odd way to prove planes didn't hit the buildings.
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Old 19th May 2012, 07:19 PM   #456
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Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
Okay, you ran to the grocery store and pet store and while gone were thinking about this thread. It's not odd that you nor anyone can post a single image that depicts anything but blobs and very fake looking imagery. You will never provide anything of value or even present an idea worth more than a real sleuth mocking you.
What the hell are you talking about? You've never posted an image or video of an orb, just planes.
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Old 19th May 2012, 07:36 PM   #457
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Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
Bring it on Rambo. Show us a higher rez vid of the orb. We don't need any better because wnbc is the best footage available and the longest. No plane from the southwest over the bay, just a floating dot from west.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2hY0QleiHY

Your fantasy is blown away by RADAR, video, photos, and eye witnesses, and big plane parts, even some DNA. You don't seem to grasp science. Why do you support lies?
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Old 19th May 2012, 07:46 PM   #458
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Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
I'll talk to any fire fighter at any time. Let's go. I'm not getting in your car, though. Hope you don't mind. I like the subway or walking.
Now would be the perfect time to fulfill "point 2" of your "Ten Point Plan"
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Old 19th May 2012, 07:46 PM   #459
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Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
You have the burden of proving planes and you haven't shown a speck of sustainable evidence. Forget the witnesses because they aren't needed to disprove your plane fantasy. No markings=no plane. No wings=no plane. It goes on and on and on.
Hmmm....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2hY0QleiHY

You can even see the building move in this one.
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Old 19th May 2012, 07:48 PM   #460
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Mod WarningA massive number of posts have been sent to AAH. Almost all, if not all, attacked an individual poster's intelligence, sobriety, work history, and other off-topic subjects. Please do not insult other posters, but discuss the facts. For example, it is permissible to mention how broadcast cameras digitized signals back in 2001 in such a way that anything smaller than one pixel was just assigned the color of the pixel next to it, causing clear shapes to appear indistinct on camera. That would be both an on topic and civil comment to make.
Responding to this modbox in thread will be off topic Posted By:Loss Leader
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Old 19th May 2012, 09:07 PM   #461
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Originally Posted by MIKILLINI View Post
Hmmm....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2hY0QleiHY

You can even see the building move in this one.
... You know, I never really realized just how massive that impact was.
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Old 19th May 2012, 09:47 PM   #462
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
Well then let us just even things up:

1. Ganci - On West somewhere between Liberty & Vessey. Requests military assistance when Hollowach confirms an airplane went into the building.

Status: Witness dismissed.

2. Gregory: On West somewhere between Albany and Liberty. Setting up a command post, which probably has more to do with setting up communications, assigning personnel and logistical support than looking skyward. Heard the plane.

Status: Witness dismissed.

3. JR343: At Trinity and Rector eastbound to Broadway, out of position to see Flight 11; At Wall and Broadway, in a dense cluster of buildings and out of position to see flight 175 as well, though he heard both planes.

Status: Witness dismissed.

4. Pfeifer: Saw the ******* plane.

Status: Witness dismissed.

5. Sandvik: Though his account is somewhat confused, I'd place him somewhere north of the WTC on or around Church, out of position to see flight 175. Interesting that Sandvik notes there were "Thousands and Thousands" of people out there.

Status: Witness dismissed.

6. Handshcuh: From the photo he took, I'd place him at West and Liberty in the World Financial Center, where the approach would've been blocked by buildings.

Status: Witness dismissed.

7. King: In a stairwell in WTC 1. With thousands of people trying to exit.

Status: Witness dismissed.

8. Becker: See #7.

Status: Witness dismissed.

9. D'Amato : Parked in front of WTC 6, out of position to see Flight 175.

Status: Witness dismissed.

There. Back to zero.
Oops, missed one:

10. Grombo: Saw the ******* plane.

Status: Witness dismissed.
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Old 19th May 2012, 10:47 PM   #463
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Originally Posted by brazenlilraisin View Post
Anneliese,

What a harrowing experience. I predict Jammonious will toss a courtly, very gentlemanly word salad that invites you to believe what you *think* you saw as long as you care to, but will seize upon the fact that you did not use pedantically precise wording to the effect that your gaze was transfixed upon the plane from the instant you saw it until it impacted the tower. He will certainly use your "misidentification" as proof that whatever you think you saw couldn't be flight 175.

As I said before, it's really hopeless and pointless, he will never acknowledge reality as long as Judy Wood's checks clear (not theory, fact).
Of course.

Witness accounts are pesky little obstructions our Jammy has to find inventive ways to dismiss, mine included. He doesn't have the huevos to outright call people liars it seems, though he probably thinks it.
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Old 20th May 2012, 12:09 AM   #464
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Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
Bring it on Rambo. Show us a higher rez vid of the orb. We don't need any better because wnbc is the best footage available and the longest. No plane from the southwest over the bay, just a floating dot from west.
Are you forgetting the fact that several controllers at EWR had visual contact with Flt175? Plus, the aircraft was followed by these same controllers on radar.
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Old 20th May 2012, 05:04 AM   #465
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Why? I demonstrated conclusively that King WAS IN THE NORTH TOWER, and most likely in the stairwells when the plane hit.

It was absolutely clear from his statement that this was the fact, yet you intentionally omitted it.

yet you still claim he was a No Planer witness, which means you are intentionally deceiving people, No Planer.
By jammonius' standard of evidence, I'd qualify as a no-plane witness too. Of course, I was in a cinema in Toronto until after the 2nd tower had collapsed. But I'm sure he'd throw me onto his shopping cart of 'witnesses'

Fitz
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Old 20th May 2012, 05:10 AM   #466
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Originally Posted by fess View Post
Are you forgetting the fact that several controllers at EWR had visual contact with Flt175? Plus, the aircraft was followed by these same controllers on radar.
My good friend's brother was at the Newark airport and watched the second plane hit as well.....along with hundreds of others.
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Old 20th May 2012, 05:11 AM   #467
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Originally Posted by fitzgibbon View Post
By jammonius' standard of evidence, I'd qualify as a no-plane witness too. Of course, I was in a cinema in Toronto until after the 2nd tower had collapsed. But I'm sure he'd throw me onto his shopping cart of 'witnesses'

Fitz
Not at all. You don't qualify because you were not in a position to see the sky over lower Manhattan on 9/11.
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Old 20th May 2012, 05:32 AM   #468
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
If you have a claim you want to make, make it and stop beating around the bush with rhetorical flourishes.

If you disagree with the validity of a witness, like, say, Battalion Chief King, then say so.

As for me, I think it all but absurd that there are posters here who take issue with the fact that a widebody jetliner <1000ft@500+mph would sound ultra loud, so much so that there should have been a large number of people requiring treatment for damage to their ears had any such thing occurred.

For those of you who claim the jetliner couldn't be heard for this, that or the other reasoning, good luck with that.
Yet the fact that the explosives couldn't be heard either is no-nevermind? "Ultra loud" is not a scientific term, and your refusal to be more precise indicates you have no idea what the volume would be in more than the vaguest terms, meaning you cannot present any sort of objective, scientifically verifiable analysis.

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Old 20th May 2012, 05:33 AM   #469
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Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
Not at all. You don't qualify because you were not in a position to see the sky over lower Manhattan on 9/11.
Neither do the majority of jammy's "no-planers".
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Old 20th May 2012, 05:36 AM   #470
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We have an eye witness. Splendid!! Well done!!!

Greetings Dash,

The forum is much enhanced by the addition of your eye witness account. Thank you for posting it.

I do not in any way wish to be seen as challenging your account. So, let me say this plainly. I am not challenging your account in any way. What follows is MY understanding of what you have written, looked at in conjunction with the witness account of another poster, jr343, who's account is contained in the OP, with an additional reference to the account of Asst Comm. Stephen Gregory, also added in.

Thus, this post consists in two things:

1--Statement of my understanding of your post; and

2--Comparison of your eye witness account with that of jr343 and Stephen Gregory.

Originally Posted by Dash80 View Post
Ok, fair enough.

Who: Myself, obviously. Also my sister.

When: 8:47am-9:03am

Where: Battery Park City apartment (visiting my sister who had married a New Yorker and moved there in 1999) with a good view of the towers to the North East and of West Street.
It is to be hoped that this relatively contemporaneous view will do justice to your location within Battery Park. It also shows Trinity PL and Rector, which is where the comparative poster, jr343, was located, as per his eye witness account. Likewise, West Street, between Liberty and Albany is contained within the view.

Below the image is jr 343's account for ready reference:



Ear witness,,, ok this is where I can testify...

I was just off of the corner of rector street and trinity walking east towards broadway and i heard ( didnt see) the impact but what i heard was a sound to describe as a quick " zhoop - crack - boom " all of which where about one second long each and a slight pause in between all of maybe the same length. Dont know what it means its just the way i remeber it.

I am no expert on what it is suppose to sound like however i have been to enough airshows to know that a jet approaching you very fast you will not hear until it is upon you or past you.

In my opinion I thought that a jetliner of those size engines would have been louder and in my mind the sound i heard was from a fighter jet or smaller than commercial size engine. But then again I have never heard a jet going allegedly that fast from any distance so i cannot debate the differences.

The first impact wasnt actually that forceful to me on the outside as much as the second one. The second one I was outside nyse on wall and it was so powerful that it rattled my head blurry for a second or 2.

Just for information.."


If the image contains the area of Battery Park City where you were located, Dash, please consider letting us know.

It would appear that the distance to the South Tower as between Battery Park City on the west and Trinity and Rector on the east is roughly comparable.

Do posters agree?

Quote:
What: I guess you would class this first part as a so-called no-plane witness but I was asleep at the time of the first crash. Something woke me, the sound of the explosion maybe. I saw something out the window and went over for a closer look, seeing debris and paper raining down, flames and smoke shooting from the south side of the North Tower.

My sister had woken at the same time, she had that same feeling of being suddenly wrenched from sleep by a loud noise. We watched in horror as the building burned. It was just a couple minutes later when people started to jump, my brain couldn't immediately process that those falling shapes were people. The window was open slightly, sirens blaring all around us.
Well, Dash, as I understand it, you are saying you had no reason to conclude that a jetliner had hit the North Tower as what you heard was more consistent with "an explosion maybe." Your use of the word "explosion" rather than the phrase "plane crash" as relates to the North Tower, is utterly consistent with virtually all known verifiable witnesses; most especially those who got on record in some way or another prior to the explosion at the South Tower.

I understand you to be putting yourself into the NO PLANE category on this one, but I also understand you to be doing that with reluctance. That is how I understand your phrase "I guess you would class this first part as a so-called no-plane witness".

All I can say is that I have no desire to "class you" in any way at all. Your statement speaks for itself. However, your statement is, I think, very, very helpful; and, yes, your statement contains an observation, based on your sensory perception, that NO PLANE hit the North Tower.

First comparison:

As to the North Tower, Jr343 says:

"The first impact wasnt actually that forceful to me on the outside as much as the second one."

I understand there to be similarity between Dash and Jr343 on the lack of any sound verification of a claim a jetliner hit the North Tower.

Quote:
We were so paralyzed by what we were seeing neither of us even thought of turning on a tv. There was a faint smell of something, my sister (a flight attendant) recognized it as jet fuel. We couldn't see the gaping hole in the North face but it seemed possible a plane had struck the building.
My understanding:

What your ears revealed was then contradicted by your sister's sense of smell. She smelled jet fuel. As a flight attendant she is presumed to have a greater familiarity with the smell of jet fuel than most. It is my understanding that you do not say what your sense of smell indicated to you; instead, you attribute the olfactory information to your sister.

Quote:
I heard a roaring sound and looked out to try and find the source. A large blue-looking plane streaked by. I also thought I saw a flash of red and being a Brit it made me think of a BA plane's livery. The plane hit the South Tower within about 3 seconds of seeing it. We evacuated our building right after this.
My understanding:

OK, in my understanding, the above is the quinessential portion of your PLANE SPOTTER account. Importantly, you spotted a plane. Let me here be clear that I understand that you spotted a plane. Do posters agree that I have acknowledged, without question or doubt of any kind, that Dash saw a plane?

You also "heard a roaring sound".

Here, then, is the second comparison between Dash and jr343 that I will offer up:

Dash: "I heard a roaring sound and looked out to try to find the source."

Jr343: "i heard ( didnt see) the impact but what i heard was a sound to describe as a quick " zhoop - crack - boom " all of which where about one second long each and a slight pause in between all of maybe the same length. "

My understanding (what was heard):

Jr343 described a sound that he did not think was a jetliner. It is unclear to me whether you, Dash, are claiming the "roaring sound" you heard was, to you, that of a jetliner or not. In other words, I am not challenging you on this, I am simply saying I do not think I can have a clear understanding, one way or another, as to whether you correlate the "roaring sound" with that of a jetliner or whether you have doubts about that. I am not asking you to clarify, either. I am simply saying what my understanding is.

By the way, and, as an aside, Asst Comm. Stephen Gregory also used the word "roar", he said: "At first I didn't realize it was a plane.
I thought it was like the roar of fire, like something
had just incinerated, like a gas tank or an oil tank."


My understanding (what was seen):

Jr343 saw no plane.

Stephen Gregory saw no plane.

Dash saw a plane.

It is also my understanding Dash did not see the plane hit the South Tower but did correlate the spotting of a plane with impact, occurring 3 seconds after seeing it. Once again, this is my understanding. It may be that Dash saw the plane hit the South Tower, but that is not my understanding of her statement.

Quote:
Why: Not exactly sure what you mean here but why did I see a plane? Because I was looking at it, no mistaking what it was to me even if my initial thought on it's airline livery was wrong.

Hope this helps, whatever you make of it.

The "why" aspect really doesn't fit in all that well. I only mentioned that because the "why" portion is a component of the "W" line of questioning.


Quote:
Anneliese.
Nice name.

Quote:
EDIT: I would like to add that although my instinctual thought was British Airways, my sister had no doubt which airline it belonged to. The very same one she worked for, United. She was very sure of this.
OK.


Once again, Dash, we should all be much obliged for your witness account. It adds a lot of substance to this thread.

THANK YOU

Last edited by jammonius; 20th May 2012 at 05:41 AM.
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Old 20th May 2012, 05:51 AM   #471
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Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
Not at all. You don't qualify because you were not in a position to see the sky over lower Manhattan on 9/11.
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Old 20th May 2012, 05:55 AM   #472
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
I have said it is based on common sense and common experience. That is far from a failure of back-up. I don't know what your epistemological leanings are, but I think in connection with a claimed widebody jetliner <1000ft@5000+mph, the common storyline is exposing one of its major flaws and weaknesses.

Now for a claim:

The lack of recording, reporting on and damage from ultra loud, deafening noise from a jetliner said to have been <1000ft above, traveling at >500mph FALSIFIES the common storyline of 9/11.

That is my claim.
Amazing how you're so willing to be precise when it comes to the size of the planes and their distance, but when it comes to the sound level all you can do is say they would be "ultra loud" and that you base your claims on "common sense and common experience". Given that most people never witness a plane hitting a building at 500mph, it's not really that common, is it?

Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
Anyone who said they saw a plane is debunked by the 4 news broadcasts that consistently aired an orb coming from west of the towers.
Yet none of them seemed to think that this was strange in any way. Almost as if that was what you'd expect to see at range. However, from a closer view...

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Old 20th May 2012, 06:01 AM   #473
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Jammonius: It's difficult to be a witness to something if you are asleep, like I said I can't be sure what woke me up. If you want to class this as a no-plane statement that's up to you.

Yes I did see the second plane hit the building, and I said so. No I did not immediately attach the explaination of "plane" to the roaring sound. Forgive me for having quite a lot on my mind, it's not everyday you witness people falling from burning buildings.
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Last edited by Dash80; 20th May 2012 at 06:12 AM.
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Old 20th May 2012, 06:01 AM   #474
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
I have nevah called any witness a liar and have no plan to do so now.

Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
Hey debunkers,

Speaking just for me, I do not think the Benjamin account is all that credible for a variety of technical reasons, starting with his calculation he saw the plane when it was "3-4 miles out". I don't think that is credible. I think he made that up.
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Old 20th May 2012, 06:23 AM   #475
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post

<snip>

I understand you to be putting yourself into the NO PLANE category on this one, but I also understand you to be doing that with reluctance.

However, your statement is, I think, very, very helpful; and, yes, your statement contains an observation, based on your sensory perception, that NO PLANE hit the North Tower.

My understanding:

My understanding

I am simply saying what my understanding is.

My understanding
Dash saw a plane.

It may be that Dash saw the plane hit the South Tower, but that is not my understanding of her statement.

The "why" aspect really doesn't fit in all that well. I only mentioned that because the "why" portion is a component of the "W" line of questioning.



As I understand it here Jammonious, you have no case.
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Old 20th May 2012, 06:37 AM   #476
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
snip

What I will say, however, is that he does not put much of a dent into the NO PLANE claim at all.


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Then how do you explain planes impacting the building?
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Old 20th May 2012, 06:47 AM   #477
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I have indicated location on the image if this helps jammonius.
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Old 20th May 2012, 07:07 AM   #478
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Originally Posted by sheeplesnshills View Post
stop feeding the troll
Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
Post number 5. End of thread. No plane case thrown out of court
Originally Posted by cjnewson88 View Post
..

Step 4: /Thread
Originally Posted by LashL View Post

That is all.
And yet...
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Old 20th May 2012, 08:17 AM   #479
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Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
Not at all. You don't qualify because you were not in a position to see the sky over lower Manhattan on 9/11.
I turned on my TV after the first tower had been hit. I watched the 2nd tower get hit, LIVE.

Go ahead....tell me I wasn't a witness.
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Old 20th May 2012, 08:38 AM   #480
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Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
I turned on my TV after the first tower had been hit. I watched the 2nd tower get hit, LIVE.

Go ahead....tell me I wasn't a witness.
So did I.

I remember watching the tenth annivsary news coverage. They interviewed one of two painters who spent their lives painting the WTC. On that fateful day they were there in their studio painting the WTC as usual. When the towers were hit they did not stop. When the towers collapsed they did not stop. When the clean up and rescue operations were going on they did not stop. And they haven't stopped even during the rebuilding phase.

And yet according to Jam and Dustard, these brave people are not witnesses.

9/11 Truthers, failing at failing and disrespecting pretty much everybody of actual worth.
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