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20th May 2012, 08:57 AM | #481 |
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20th May 2012, 10:40 AM | #482 |
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Dear Animal,
My, my, my, do you feel better now? As you may know, I do not play gotcha games. Instead, if I perceive that a poster may have either said something in error, contradicted a prior post or succh like, I will usually call the poster's attention to the apparent error/contradiction/whatever, with the suggestion that they confirm the meaning of whatever it is that might otherwise result in a gotcha claim. I don't see what advantage playing gotcha confers on anyone who plays it. Quite frankly, it seems a rather juvenile, playground-type tactic, to me. OK, let me here illustrate how I would handled the posts in question. I would have said, Dear Jammonius, You claim you do not evah call plane spotters liars, correct? I should like to call your attention to post #---- where you specifically said: "I think he made that up" Do you realize that statement can be considered calling someone a liar? Please advise [Add boggled symbol or some other icon] That is how I would have handled the situation, but hey, that is just me. You preferred to play 'gotcha' on the matter. As such, the possibility of having a meaningful discussion is reduced, as you appear to be on guard, vigilantly perusing everything I post so as to say "gotcha." Suffice it to say, I was actually challenging the way that witness described his spotting of zee plane. He posted up his account 1 year later at a website called "September 11 Stories" that obviously put the whole issue of accuracy in question on the basis of what the website calls itself. In any event, to say that he made up the claim "3-4 miles out" actually confirms I was not challenging his claim of PLANE SPOTTING, but rather, was calling attention to the absurdity of how he choose to go about describing what he saw. Blessings |
20th May 2012, 10:47 AM | #483 |
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You "wasn't a witness."
If there is anything unclear about my having gone ahead and told you "you wasn't a witness," let me know, and I will make it clearer, still, that you were not a witness because what you saw was on a media source that I call teevee. That source is one of illusion more often than not, such that whatever is seen on it cannot be presumed to be true and accurate. In some instances, what is on teevee is true and accurate, but the process of distinguishing the real from the unreal, especially if teevee is the source, is, for good reason, an exacting one. Blessings |
20th May 2012, 10:48 AM | #484 |
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20th May 2012, 10:57 AM | #485 |
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It does help. Well done. I gather you spotted the plane when it was about 670m (2200ft) south of the South Tower, correct? I am basing that on your statement that it was 3 seconds from spotting to impact. The accepted speed given for the event is about 538mph, if I recall correctly, but I normally just round that to 500mph. In any event, the distance covered in 3 seconds at that speed is as indicated above. Please advise. |
20th May 2012, 10:58 AM | #486 |
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I see that the No-Planers still travel Air Elastic-Band with their fleet of innovative rubber Boeings. |
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20th May 2012, 11:03 AM | #487 |
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Actually, what was seen on teevee does not match what many witnesses said, including not just those who saw no plane, despite being in a position to do so; but, it also fails to match those who said it was a small plane and those who said it was a missile.
In addition, there were various teevee shots; what was seen did not match between and among the various teevee versions. In one example of this, zee plane is seem to dive before hitting the South Tower. In another, the plane seems to rise a bit. In still another, it seems to come from straight on. So, in that sense, the claim that teevee 'matches' what witnesses saw is, in my view, inaccurate. Teevee didn't even match other teevee, let alone witnesses. |
20th May 2012, 11:03 AM | #488 |
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I see that the No-Planers still travel Air Elastic-Band with their fleet of innovative rubber Boeings. |
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20th May 2012, 11:10 AM | #489 |
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20th May 2012, 11:12 AM | #490 |
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Well, no.
Thousands of people in and around GZ saw it with their own eyes. Thousands didn't. Millions more saw it on TV. Since the technology to produce the effects required to support the no-plane delusion doesn't exist, your argument is rejected. The television witnesses are allowed. |
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20th May 2012, 11:16 AM | #491 |
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20th May 2012, 11:16 AM | #492 |
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I have tried not to give my account the benefit of hindsight, specifically trying to recall my reactions and perceptions at that time. I think this is a problem, because it's very easy to confuse an accepted version of events with initial reactions.
For example: It would be easy for me to say "I saw the United Airlines plane" but my initial thought was of another airline. As I am sure you are well aware of, witness statements by themselves could be unreliable. One person might report a blue car running someone over in an accident, another might say it was green. |
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I see that the No-Planers still travel Air Elastic-Band with their fleet of innovative rubber Boeings. |
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20th May 2012, 11:20 AM | #493 |
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20th May 2012, 11:22 AM | #494 |
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It is talking about all the different angles of view, from the ground, from on top buildings, from choppers. From the foot of the World Trade Center, from across the East River, from midtown. Apparently it can't fathom that we get very different views from those.
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20th May 2012, 11:23 AM | #495 |
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20th May 2012, 11:33 AM | #496 |
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20th May 2012, 11:48 AM | #497 |
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How else can I say this....this is a lie.
Why must you employ lies, if the evidence supports your contention(s)???
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Why must you employ irrelevancies, if the evidence supports your contention(s)???
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The evidence simply does not support that contention. Making it all the WORSE, is the lies you tell because you think it supports those contentions. When I discover I'm being lied to, as I have found with you, I tend to disbelieve anything else you have to say... Congratulations... |
20th May 2012, 01:47 PM | #498 |
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I agree with your insight concerning the impact of suggestion; or, as you put it: '...an accepted version of events...". Between you and me, Dash, posters like, say, RAF, might do well to come to grips with the power of suggestion as it relates to events.
9/11 is in actuality a PSYOP. That is to say, an example of the "power of suggestion" phenomenon taken to the extremes of military perception management technology, circa 2001. It's more all inclusive now than it was then. The power of suggestion concept that you articulate is a quintessentially important recognition to have with respect to an event like 9/11 that gets immediately tied into xenophobia, identification of an "enemy" and of one that "hates us for our freedoms" no less. As I have elsewhere said, once the invasion of Afghanistan began (10/7/01), if not well before then, it was almost impossible to call attention to any 9/11 anamoly because doing so was deemed unpatriotic or not in "support of the troops" and such like. You wrote that you "heard a roaring sound" and you noted that your sister is a flight attendant. If I may, Dash, are you also employed in the airline industry in some capacity? Dash 80 is a kind of passenger aircraft, correct? But the interesting thing here is that based on your location, as you mapped it out, I wonder if there is any significance at all in your descriptor of "roaring sound" as being the way you described what you heard, versus "a jet aircraft sound" that you might also have used, presumably if that is what it sounded like to you. Blessings |
20th May 2012, 01:54 PM | #499 |
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20th May 2012, 01:56 PM | #500 |
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20th May 2012, 01:56 PM | #501 |
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20th May 2012, 01:59 PM | #502 |
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20th May 2012, 02:02 PM | #503 |
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Jack,
With all due respect, you are not up to speed. A video where you can do that is linked in the OP. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...20&postcount=1 We've had a thread in this forum containing 3875 posts on the subject of comparing the 43 then known video versions of the South Tower explosion. If necessary, I can find the link for you. It might already have been linked by Elmundo, I think. Key words from its title are "All43 videos". I, personally, posted up a critique of all of the videos in that thread. I thought the thread was quite educational. It includes radar analysis, dB level disputation, obituaries for claimed passengers, discussion of proper forensic evaluation of plane crashes, eyewitness accounts apparently posted up for the first time, lurkers coming into the discussion from out of the blue and so on. Oh, and yes, it also includes lots of insults, as you might expect. |
20th May 2012, 02:06 PM | #504 |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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20th May 2012, 02:10 PM | #505 |
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20th May 2012, 02:13 PM | #506 |
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DGM,
Unfortunately, your post is more in the nature of a 20 question gambit. Yes, I made a claim and yes I am willing to support the claim. But, I do not play 20 questions. Here is what I suggest. If you want to turn these words into a claim, then do so: "...the sound level at the expected (stated) exposure distance?..." I have based my claim on observation, where the observed phenomenon is the sound made by jet aircraft. That phenomenon is an everyday experience. Most people are quite accustomed to it and very familiar with it. We are all pretty adept in distinguishing high flying aircraft from low flying ones; fast ones from slow ones. Hence, observation trumps disputation about dB level in my opinion. But, if there is a claim you want to make about dB level, as it relates to alleged Flight 175, then you may do so. I will not play 20 questions where you get to ask for more proof with every answer. No, I will not evah do that. But, if you really want to get some dB disputation, go back to the All43 thread. I seem to recall we went up one side and down the other of that issue in that thread. |
20th May 2012, 02:17 PM | #507 |
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I was not employed in the airline industry at that time. Dash 80 was the nickname of the Boeing 707 prototype, the plane in my picture.
Hmmm Jammonius I don't think you realize how a human mind works. Should everyone make an instant conclusion as to what they're hearing? Not specifically describing a loud roaring sound as a jet means it wasn't a jet? Sorry, doesn't work that way. Many describe tornadoes sounding like freight trains but they are not literally trains are they? |
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20th May 2012, 02:18 PM | #508 |
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I did post videos with several of those views in 472 which, curiously, he has not responded to. I wonder if he rationalizes them away, or if he can't comprehend their existence?
Except, as I have pointed out, few hear planes flying low over buildings in New York.
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Not to mention your studious ignorance of any closer or higher-res videos that do not show a blob. Strange how witnesses are reliable when they say they see a blob but not a plane, even though there are more of the latter. |
20th May 2012, 02:20 PM | #509 |
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What are you talking about? I have only counted 10 accounts as valid NO PLANE claims so far. It has been my objective to apply a consistent process in distinguishing the real from the unreal; or, at a minimum, the reliable from the unreliable.
I must say, however, that debunkers have yet to post up a single verifiable eye witness based on the criteria I have used. That said, I do consider Dash a valid PLANE SPOTTER (South Tower) and a valid NO PLANER (North Tower). However, I also consider Jr343 in that same category. I didn't count Jr343 in my official total because the plain fact is, anonymous posting on internet message boards would not pass muster as actual evidence. This is not to say that I consider Dash 80 or Jr343 unreliable. To me, they are almost as real as are people I might stand in front of, face to face. But, the reality is that cyberspace does not count as real evidence. You agree? Blessings |
20th May 2012, 02:25 PM | #510 |
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The problem is you claimed:
You have not supported your claim that the sound would be "ultra loud" or "deafening". Why don't you try again? If you want to concede you pulled this out of your butt, that's all good, I'll drop it right here. Well? |
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20th May 2012, 02:28 PM | #511 |
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Asking me to find the link to the All43 thread is but another, more subtle perhaps, version of 20 questions. Anyone here can look that up.
That said, and in this one instance only; and since I have made mention of the thread, here it is: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=175654 Consider this an acknowledgment of the 2 year anniversary of that thread |
20th May 2012, 02:28 PM | #512 |
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Is there some reason why we have to "abide" by your criteria?
You are a credulous, biased believer, and we would be FOOLS to allow YOU to determine what criteria we must follow... In other words, nice try, but once again, a BIG FAIL.
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Thanks for clearing that up for us... |
20th May 2012, 02:29 PM | #513 |
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I see that the No-Planers still travel Air Elastic-Band with their fleet of innovative rubber Boeings. |
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20th May 2012, 02:31 PM | #514 |
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I wonder what is it that is unclear that I am here relying on general, common experience and common sense?
People are readily capable of observing that a jetliner at <1000ft up and traveling at 500+mph is ultra loud. On that claim and on that basis for supporting that claim I STAND I also stand on the proposition that more often than not SENSE OBSERVATION AND DEDUCTION DRAWN FROM THAT OBSERVATION TRUMPS OTHER, MORE REMOTE FORMS OF DEDUCTION. |
20th May 2012, 02:32 PM | #515 |
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20th May 2012, 02:34 PM | #516 |
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20th May 2012, 02:34 PM | #517 |
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Wait, Dash. I think something has gone wrong here. We already discussed this. I based my claim on your words that were to the effect that I could count you as a no planer, notwithstanding that you were asleep. I thought the basis for that was a recognition that had it been loud as a jetliner should be, it would have awakened you and you would have known it was a jetliner.
I withdraw my inclusion of you as a NO PLANER. I am afraid I misunderstood you and for that I am sorry. |
20th May 2012, 02:35 PM | #518 |
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20th May 2012, 02:36 PM | #519 |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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20th May 2012, 02:38 PM | #520 |
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There are various forms of proper analytic technique. Tornadoes are not daily occurrences, fortunately. Thus, I don't think it is apt to use the analogy you put forward. Jetliners are heard daily by almost all people who live in the developed world and most especially those who live in the urban or more densely populated areas of such countries.
For that reason, the sound of jetliners is more easily understood, recognized and described as such. |
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