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16th May 2012, 11:19 PM | #41 |
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The video evidence shows jetliners. The videos showing United 175 comes from numerous sources including live news footage and individual citizens. AA 11 is clearly shown hitting the North tower on the Naudet film.
Nothing show by the poster starting the thread puts any doubt whatsoever in the recordings. |
17th May 2012, 12:01 AM | #42 |
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Jam, it's like this. I am a skeptically minded individual, cynical even. Until you can come up with a conclusion that's better than the 'official story' and back it up with actual evidence then the only conclusion I can draw is that you story is the false one.
That's why we have such things as the null hypothesis and burden of proof. You understand this? |
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17th May 2012, 12:43 AM | #43 |
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No-planers still wandering around lost in 2012? Truly pathetic.
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17th May 2012, 01:23 AM | #44 |
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Jammonious.
My personal "Rules of Engagement" mean that I don't give more than two posts to those who are trolling... UNLESS The person desists from trolling and engages in reasoned debate. Since all of your response is evasive and illogical crap this will be my second and last response unless you lift your game and address the single simple central point of my post. And this response is primarily intended for those who are intelligently engaging with the topic. Evasive hogwash. What you claim to think is not the test of discussion standards here. Translated what you are saying is "we don't need reasoned arguments which are valid use of evidence and valid logic" - but you are not brave enough to put it so clearly. And you claim that those standards should not apply here? Don't make such idiotic claims. Your OP as a simple proposition but poorly expressed. You attempted a clarification. I clarified it further. The characteristic which you identify of "impartial" applies to what is said not to who says it. Well that is right. Glad to see you agree. Why the change of mind after your first bits of nonsense? It is accurate - your bold assertion of inaccuracy is unsupported and wrong. And your next sentences show you do not understand the simple and unrebuttable point I made about the difference between the two types of evidence. Feel free to put reasoned claims as to any error you think you detect. Go away and read what I posted before your try. Not so. I don't at this stage think you are being deliberately untruthful - I give benefit of doubt that you do not understand the simple distinction I made. Go back and read again. I may be able to put it even simpler but..... Is that because you cannot support your false and illogical claim? [quote=jammonius;8292051]... but, suffice to say that all witnesses in legal matters are subject to cross examination. [/QUOTE} WOW! So what? What are you trying to claim by that bit of irrelevancy? [quote=jammonius;8292051]...Furthermore, not seeing a widebody 767 jetliner that was said to be <1000ft above ground, traveling at near or above 500mph could be described as hard to miss, if it were there. So, for that reason, I don't think your characterization of NO PLANE information is at all accurate. Not in that context....[quote] Not the issue under discussion. The OP and my response are about credibility of witnesses. Not about the evidence they may or may not put. Read the OP. So it goes to the logical structure of the presentation of evidence. Not to the facts which certain witnesses may state. Which is part of what I said. AND the fundamental difficulty facing those who argue "NO PLANE" Their problem. Just because I clearly identified it does not somehow make it my problem You are wrong on burden of proof and wrong if you expected me to fall for your false claim on that legal matter. The rest of the paragraph does not deserve a response. Addressed in detail in my first response. Repeating your false claim without addressing my explanation leaves the ball firmly in your court. Address the issues and stop evading. Irrelevant to the topic which you defined which is not the facts of evidence BUT the credibility of witnesses. And I clearly explained the problem you face with the different "structure of evidence" for the two sides you defined. BUT it is your dichotomy - not mine. I merely showed you the main problems of YOUR scenario. You set the OP - don't try to pass blame to me when you cannot defend a claim. You think wrong and so far have not supported your claim. Irrelevant. AND Why? It's your OP and I am strictly following your OP. Irrelevant, off topic and garbage. Not so and so far you have not given any relevant reasons which address my claims and cast a single legitimate doubt. |
17th May 2012, 01:26 AM | #45 |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id%C3%A...8psychology%29
"An idée fixe is a preoccupation of mind held so firmly as to resist any attempt to modify it, a fixation. The name originates from the French [French : idée, idea + fixe, fixed]. Although not used technically to denote a particular disorder in psychology, idée fixe is used often in the description of disorders, and is employed widely in literature and everyday English. ... "Molière also used the idée fixe repeatedly:[25] Molière's more celebrated comic characters, Arnolphe, Orgon, Alceste, Harpagon, Monsieur Jourdain, Argan: each of them displays to the very end the obsession or idée fixe which colors his outlook on life. It is a characteristic of Molière's heroes that they are never ‘converted’: in every case the dénouement, far from curing them of their folly, merely confirms them in it." No-planers cling to the no plane theory for dear life, and it becomes their life. They twist any and all evidence that disproves their theory to suit their one false truth. Debating them online doesn't help them at all. It only gives them a chance to invent more false reasons to believe in their delusion. Please get professional help, jammonius. |
17th May 2012, 02:35 AM | #46 |
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17th May 2012, 04:42 AM | #47 |
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^ :=]
Nominated Compus |
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17th May 2012, 05:09 AM | #48 |
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I now await the Jammed One attempt to pass off part of a jet engine as a Plymouth wheel cover, an errror comparable to mistaking a living room ceiling fan for P-51 Mustang prop.
Even the simplest of simpletons isn't buying it jammy, so leave it out por favor. |
17th May 2012, 05:31 AM | #49 |
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Greetings LashL,
Thank you for your analytical, deductive post. Addition of quoted material is not necessarily supportive of a claim of "cherrypicking". In the example you use, the additions do not serve the purpose you are claiming, which is that the addition clarifies and strengthens the claim a jetliner crashed into the South Tower. The quote you offer does not do that. Instead, the quote you offer casts doubt on the accuracy of Firefighter Holowach's account. What on earth did he see? His account is quite confusing. In particular, you lift that part of his multipage statement wherein he claims: "..I heard the sound of a jet plane. I looked up and saw it pretty close and I was like holy ****. What's going on with the with the flight patterns. All of a sudden, the wings turned and it dove right into the building and it was screwed up. .." That description is rather unique and also rather incongruent. It disagrees with video depictions and it seems to presuppose a much slower speed than that claimed by the common storyline of 500+mph. I am not here challenging the veracity of the account. I am making an attempt to interpret what the witness says solely on the basis of the plain meaning of the words used. That is what I do for all witnesses. I am not seeking to interpret the words favorably or unfavorably to a NO PLANE claim or a PLANE SPOTTER claim.
Quote:
Mind you, however, that it might look a bit odd for you to take exception to my substitution of "right next" for "behind" on one hand; and then you insert the word "somewhere" behind in the same sentence, on the other. I here claim that if it is unreasonable to use the words "right next" as a resonable interpretation of Holowach's statement; then it is equally unreasonable to insert the word "somewhere" where it likewise is not to be found in his statement. Your second claim "there is no indication of how much distance there is between the two" is useful I suppose. But that is not a valid criticism of my use of the witness. He said what he said. It is up to us to consider it and make what we can of it. Based on the tenor of your analytic, LashL, it would seem as though you are blaming me for what he said. I can here assure you I did not coach him on what to say. Your claim concerning the time factor is likewise an accurate one. However, what interest are you advancing? Are you seeking to claim Holowach is useless as an eye witness or what? You next claim there is no indication of what Chief Ganci was looking at, etc., all of which is true. What we are sure of, however, is that he was adamant an explosion had occurred, if his repitition of the word "no" can fairly be interpreted as an indicator of adamance. Your fifth claim simply does not follow. It is not a reasonable interpretation of the witness exchange. You assume Holowach's version is correct, which is improper. Those in this thread that claim that spotting a plane is assumed to be correct are, in fact, merely making an assumption. That and no more. It is equally reasonable to assume Ganci was spot on correct as it is to assume Holowach was spot on correct. Wanting to believe the common storyline; and, in truth, wanting not to suspend disbelief (i.e., a skeptical stance) are each forms of bias. However, the one form of bias is not better than the other form of bias. Each are a factor in what a person may "believe". But, as I have said over and over again, I am not here questioning anyone's belief and I am not here making claims based on what I "believe." I am simply posting up claims based on data, information and rationally based proof.
Quote:
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17th May 2012, 05:38 AM | #50 |
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17th May 2012, 05:41 AM | #51 |
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17th May 2012, 05:44 AM | #52 |
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17th May 2012, 05:46 AM | #53 |
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17th May 2012, 05:54 AM | #54 |
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Your generalities lack sources and links. Your claim concerning the Naudet Bros. video is utterly false. That video is not at all clear; it is blurry, inconclusive and incongruent. It is almost never cited and it is not considered valid evidence.
Even one of the firefighters said to be in the video contradicts it in one important way. Chief Pfeifer says: "I pulled in front of the building. I looked up and I saw no fire coming out, no smoke coming out, which would have been the west side of the building. If I can back up, as we went down the street after the initial explosion of the plane hitting, we saw there was somewhat of a hole, from our position, certainly, maybe three or four of the stories, three stories I think I said. Again, there was no fire coming out. So, when we got there, there was no fire and on the west side there was no smoke. But there was an obvious hole in the building."Source: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...IC/9110138.PDF pg. 3 |
17th May 2012, 05:57 AM | #55 |
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17th May 2012, 05:58 AM | #56 |
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You might want to consider posting up an explanaation or outline of the level of proof you required or relied on for accepting the common storyline, together with some listing of factors that satisfied that level of proof. That, at least, would be consistent with your claim of being a skeptic. It is my understanding that, for most people, seeing the shadowy image of a jetliner on teevee was sufficient proof that 4 jetliners were hijacked that day; and sufficient proof that two of them crashed, respectively, into WTC 1 and WTC 2; and, that one crashed into the Pentagon; and, that one crashed into a field at Shanksville Pa. No reliable teevee footage of any of the events other than the shadow thingy is thought to exist, but the teevee imagery for alleged FL 175 appears to have been the clincher for all 4 for many. |
17th May 2012, 06:02 AM | #57 |
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17th May 2012, 06:03 AM | #58 |
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17th May 2012, 06:08 AM | #59 |
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17th May 2012, 06:12 AM | #60 |
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Ozeco,
Would you agree with me that in more than 50 posts on this thread, I am the only poster who has sourced and linked any actual eye witnesses? And, would you agree with me that the witnesses I have sourced and linked say things that contradict the common storyline? Finally, Ozeco whether you post replies to me or not is your choice. If you know of any reliable witnesses sources, do please consider posting up quotes, properly sourced and linked. Blessings |
17th May 2012, 06:15 AM | #61 |
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No, I will not stop it. I do not tire of pointing out that you do not have any right to wrap yourself up into a claim of superior respect for victims. In fact, your doing so is utterly consistent with that bit of wisdom that states:
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." Samuel Johnson You do not own sympathy for victims. Stop it. |
17th May 2012, 06:17 AM | #62 |
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17th May 2012, 06:23 AM | #63 |
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No witnesses at all are offered in the above. The reluctance on the part of debunkers to review and assess what actual witnesses said is hard to understand in the context of the absolute certainty that witnesses who say the spotted a plane are so numerous; but, none have been quoted and properly linked in this thread at all.
I have elsewhere addressed the claim of "cherrypicking". That claim is false. |
17th May 2012, 06:26 AM | #64 |
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Jammonius,
What do you think about the possibility of a projected image of an airplane? This theory accommodates the video evidence and the eyewitness evidence. It doesn't say anyone is confused or lying when they report that they saw a plane. It also doesn't require complicity among the producers of the video evidence. I favor the projected image theory because of these reasons. |
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The World Trade Center did not collapse. It was turned into dust while it was standing there, and then the dust fell to the ground. |
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17th May 2012, 06:30 AM | #65 |
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17th May 2012, 06:35 AM | #66 |
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17th May 2012, 06:38 AM | #67 |
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Who's being patriotic? I am expressing sympathy, human empathy, kindness. You do not tire of pointing out a lot of things, including your bat-crap crazy no-plane ideas that deny reality. They also deny the dignity of the truth, the dignity of those lost on that day.
Do no-planers display sociopathic behavior? Maybe. |
17th May 2012, 06:39 AM | #68 |
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17th May 2012, 06:41 AM | #69 |
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17th May 2012, 06:45 AM | #70 |
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17th May 2012, 06:46 AM | #71 |
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By what perverted logic is a witness who says "I didn't actually see the plane but I heard it" any kind of no-planer?
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17th May 2012, 06:47 AM | #72 |
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17th May 2012, 06:51 AM | #73 |
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17th May 2012, 06:55 AM | #74 |
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17th May 2012, 07:03 AM | #75 |
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17th May 2012, 07:04 AM | #76 |
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<sigh> willfull ignorance of terminal stupidity from troofers never ceases.
"83rd floor: saw plane from 3-4 miles out, describes approach until impact, firefighters made it up to the 83rd floor? My name is Jeff Benjamin and I was visiting a client, Axcelera Specialty Risk, on the 83rd floor of the North Tower when we observed an approaching aircraft (American Airlines Flt.11)from a distance of aprox. 3-4 miles. At the time we initially spotted the plane, it appeared to be level with us. We could distinctly identify the American airlines insignia and my client commented that perhaps the plane had taken off from Kennedy and was experiencing mechanical problems. As the plane approached us it seemed to climb. I stood up from the conference table and walked over to the window assuming as everyone did that there was no imminent danger. As the plane came closer we could see that it was traveling at a high rate of speed and the sound of the engines intensified. Immediately before impact we could see images in the cockpit and the plane banked sharply. A split second later we heard an echoing shot, fell to the floor and observed a fireball followed by debris which struck the side of the building. At the same time you could feel the building sway every so slightly for a brief moment. We immediately retreated towards the main part of the office where we noticed a huge fireball shooting out of the elevator shaft which quickly disappeared. Fortunately, the glass door between our office and the elevator lobby remained intact as the drywall and ceiling tiles caught fire. The fire burned off leaving thick acrid black smoke some of which entered the office through the ceiling where some tiles had collapsed above the reception desk. We immediately went to the kitchenette in the office to locate hand towels and paper towels which we wet down in the sink to stuff under the door and to cover our mouths to prevent as much smoke as possible from entering our lungs. No one seemed to know for sure where the stairways were, and since the smoke was heavy in the elevator lobby, we decided to stay in the office for the time being. Almost as if on cue the phones began to ring. Relatives and co-workers called to provide assurance and to let us know they had contacted 911 operators and advised them there were people located on the 83rd floor that need to be rescued. I personally contacted a 911 operator and let them know our location. The operator stated we should remain in the office as they would provide our whereabouts to the firemen which were already in the building and on their way up. Shortly thereafter the phones stopped ringing. Minutes passed which seemed like hours. We closed the office doors located by the exterior windows as we were afraid some of the debris crashing against the side of the building could break some windows and physically located near the walls bordering the elevator lobby. It became eerily quiet as everyone seemed to pause in reflection. I specifically recall a woman, who entered our office from the elevator lobby immediately after impact, stating "If you think we are in bad shape you should see the South Tower". We had heard a large explosion but were not aware that it came from the South Tower. I proceeded to go to the far end of the office where I could see the South Tower. When I looked down I observed fire which totally engulfed one of the lower floors. It was the most frightening sight I had ever seen. Aprox. 30 minutes had passed when we decided to attempt to escape. We exited the office holding paper towels over our face to shield us from the smoke and began to walk slowly down the hall carefully avoiding smoldering drywall and ceiling panels that had fallen. We had walked only about 20 steps when we heard an explosion in the building and the lights went out. Immediately, everyone turned around and stumbled back into the office. We waited in panicked silence starring towards the lobby. No one spoke as we stood there clutching our possessions. Five minutes passed, and then miraculously, we saw the beam of a flashlight in the lobby. We all shouted as we watched the ray of light approach the glass office door. The door opened and a fireman appeared along with a building worker. They were very calm and advised http://911digitalarchive.org/stories/details/7639 Jeff Benjamin of Manchester, N.H., was visiting clients on the 83rd floor of the World Trade Center when he saw the plane heading straight into the building. "It slammed into the window," Benjamin said. "Debris spilled. I don't know how we got out of the there alive. All the lights went out. We walked down the flight of stairs." http://www.staugustine.com/stories/091101/ter_012.shtml |
17th May 2012, 07:40 AM | #77 |
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The World Trade Center did not collapse. It was turned into dust while it was standing there, and then the dust fell to the ground. |
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17th May 2012, 07:53 AM | #78 |
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17th May 2012, 07:57 AM | #79 |
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WTC Dust,
Yes, that is a reasonable inference and would be worthy of discussion in a forum where projection warfare could be taken seriously. It obviously takes little or no insight to know full well that contemporary warfare places a very high value on high tech means of deception and on psychological warfare. 9/11 was a PSYOP. Have you taken a look at the information concerning the "face of Allah" idea that has received a fair amount of discussion in mainstream media sources? For me, research on perception warfare is a fruitful area. There is quite a lot of publicly available information, but we are also hampered by military industrial complex secrecy on the technologies. Blessings |
17th May 2012, 07:57 AM | #80 |
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So what? It also falls into the category of someone nearby who heard a plane. That is obviously not a person who thinks there was no plane.
I did not see the 2005 Buncefield fuel depot explosion, but I certainly heard it. So I am not a no-explosioner. Do you understand? |
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