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Old 17th May 2012, 11:18 AM   #161
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Wow, real no planers. Good luck debunkers, we all know this isn't going to end.

These guys use quotes from people who come out and say they are being misrepresented, none of the evidence is going to be "good enough", but all of their evidence is rock solid no matter where it came from.

I'll enjoy lurking, but nothing will come of this. Just more attention for the attention whores to soak up.
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Old 17th May 2012, 11:29 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Redtail View Post
Oh look! Another truther that doesn't understand perspective.

Do you think the moon is nearly the size of the sun?
Wait...what? It's not?

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Old 17th May 2012, 11:32 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Wow, real no planers. Good luck debunkers, we all know this isn't going to end.

These guys use quotes from people who come out and say they are being misrepresented, none of the evidence is going to be "good enough", but all of their evidence is rock solid no matter where it came from.

I'll enjoy lurking, but nothing will come of this. Just more attention for the attention whores to soak up.
I don't think the no planers are real. I haven't seen any credible testimony that they have been seen posting this stuff.
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Old 17th May 2012, 11:32 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
They were right under the explosion, but a plane didn't come crashing down on them. Hmmm.
I take it you aren't familiar with Newton.
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Old 17th May 2012, 11:33 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0110/images/m04.jpg

"And then heard this noise that seemed to come from everywhere but didn't...had no idea what it was and then the south tower just exploded, it just it just, it just blew up. And somebody said that was a plane and I was like, "I was underneath it, I was looking at the tower, I had my camera in my hand, I heard the noise, I never saw the airplane."

David, did not hear or see an approaching plane and didn't photograph one. He would've heard the roaring engines and plane coming in at over 500 mph. NO REAL PLANE HIT THE SOUTH TOWER.

http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...noplanepic.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHrbQ...8D8AE&index=25

I think this witness, David Handschuh, counts as a NO PLANE witness, so that is now 6

Thank you 7forever
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Old 17th May 2012, 11:36 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
I think this witness, David Handschuh, counts as a NO PLANE witness, so that is now 6

Thank you 7forever
So apparently "never saw the plane" means "there was no plane", but the witnesses who DID see a plane actually didn't. Gotcha/
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Old 17th May 2012, 11:37 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
Why on Earth would any sane person post an image of what is obviously a plane hitting the building to show that a plane didn't hit the building? Am I missing something?
Yes. You're missing the fact you got Poe'd.
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Old 17th May 2012, 11:38 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
Why on Earth would any sane person post an image of what is obviously a plane hitting the building to show that a plane didn't hit the building? Am I missing something?
If you're missing something then so am I. But I suspect it's someone else who is really missing something.
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Old 17th May 2012, 11:46 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
Cloud, obliterates the absurd conclusion that dumb arabs really flew planes into buildings on 911. His real-time account combined with 4 news broadcasts that show an object 5-10 times smaller than a chopper prove the NRPT. He says it over and over and over. He was watching the towers and didn't see any plane because there was no plane to see.

"I just caught the second explosion on videotape...No, a bomb, I saw it, no plane hit nothin', the building exploded from the other tower floors down."

http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...FSoupcom-1.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2unT...ure=plpp_video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTkzxaHAcNc
Perspective.
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Old 17th May 2012, 11:55 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
...
"And then heard this noise that seemed to come from everywhere but didn't...had no idea what it was and then the south tower just exploded, it just it just, it just blew up. And somebody said that was a plane and I was like, "I was underneath it, I was looking at the tower, I had my camera in my hand, I heard the noise, I never saw the airplane."
...
Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
I think this witness, David Handschuh, counts as a NO PLANE witness of a plane, so that is now 6 still not significant to the discussion.

Thank you 7forever
(highlighting mine)
ftfy jammonius

"I never saw the airplane." THE AIRPLANE. Not an airplane. To me that means he knew there was an airplane, but he never saw it.

Sorry about the red. Their posting styles are so convoluted that I had to do something different to make my corrections noticable.
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Old 17th May 2012, 11:55 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by minnemouse View Post
I have a challenge for you, Jams (ohh...another fitting word in Norwegian!!). Walk into the firehouse on 124 Liberty St. and challenge the firemen there. Are you man enough to do that?
I would appreciate Jammonious trying this challenge despite my flag being one with a large red maple leaf, my patriotism being in no way tied to any organization within the southern neighbouring country, and apple being my second favourite pie.
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Old 17th May 2012, 11:57 AM   #172
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Sweet! Now there are 3!

7 believes mysterious orbs hit the towers...

Tracy thinks they were holograms..

and Jammy doesn't believe anything hit the towers.

Who do we believe?
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Old 17th May 2012, 12:05 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by swright777 View Post
(highlighting mine)
ftfy jammonius

"I never saw the airplane." THE AIRPLANE. Not an airplane. To me that means he knew there was an airplane, but he never saw it.

Sorry about the red. Their posting styles are so convoluted that I had to do something different to make my corrections noticable.
he did hear a plane AND reports that a person, near enough to him for himto hear the other witness,said that a plane hit the tower. This is heresay evidence of a plane impact clearly, but is direct evidence of the existance of impact witnesses.
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Old 17th May 2012, 12:07 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
So apparently "never saw the plane" means "there was no plane", but the witnesses who DID see a plane actually didn't. Gotcha/

You wish!

Debunkers have posted 0 authenticated PLANE SPOTTER witnesses, thus far. It's not yet totally out of hand, so I see no need to help debunkers do their homework for them by finding some for them.

What I will do here, however, is add another adamant NO PLANER. This would be Battalian Chief Stephen King who was in WTC 1 at the time of the confirmed explosion at the WTC 2.

His statement does not copy/paste properly for me, so posters will have to either look at the source or fill in the missing letters:

"IT WAS JUST HEARD PLANE STRUCK THE SOUTH
TOWER REMEMBER SAYING HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE IN MY
MIND IM THINKING IT MIGHT BE NEWS HELICOPTER IM
THINKING THAT YOU KNOW WHEN WE HAVE AN EVENT LIKE
THIS IN THE CITY HOW YOU GET ONE OF THOSE HELICOPTERS
IN THERE VERY QUICKLY SO LITERALLY ALTHOUGH THEY
SAID AN AIRCRAFT IM THINKING THAT MAYBE ITS SOME
IDIOT IN NEWS HELICOPTER CIRCLING YOU KNOW FILMING
THIS EVENT IN THE NORTH TOWER AND SOMEHOW HE PLOWED
INTO THE SOUTH TOWER OR ELSE IM SAYING TO MYSELF
IF IT ISNT THAT MAYBE ITS IM PILOT BY THE
WAY IM COMMERCIAL PILOT FOR 30 YEARS FLEW IN
THE NAVY FIXED WING PILOT
FIXED WING IVE FLOWN SOME HELICOPTERS
BUT FIXED WING AND FLEW IN THE NAVY
BUT ANYWAY THE OTHER THING IM THINKING IS
WHAT THEY CALL VFR CORRIDOR THAT RUNS UP THE HUDSON
RIVER RIGHT ALONGSIDE THE TWIN TOWERS IT GOES UP THE
HUDSON RIVER VFR VISUAL FLIGHT RULE PRIVATE PLANE
TYPE THEY CAN GO UP AND DOWN THAT AS LONG AS THEY STAY
UNDER 1100 FEET AGL ABOVE GROUND LEVEL SO IM SAYING
TO MYSELF THE OTHER POSSIBILITY IS SOME LIGHT PLANE
BUT IM NEVER THINKING AIRLINER I DONT HEAR THAT AT ALL"


http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...IC/9110208.PDF pgs 18-19

Battalian Chief King cites his experience as a pilot of fixed wing aircraft for his determination there was no jetliner crash into the South Tower.

This is 7
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Old 17th May 2012, 12:10 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
I would appreciate Jammonious trying this challenge despite my flag being one with a large red maple leaf, my patriotism being in no way tied to any organization within the southern neighbouring country, and apple being my second favourite pie.
Dear Jay,

I have taken Minnie up on her challenge as posted earlier:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0&postcount=26
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Old 17th May 2012, 12:14 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
he did hear a plane AND reports that a person, near enough to him for himto hear the other witness,said that a plane hit the tower. This is heresay evidence of a plane impact clearly, but is direct evidence of the existance of impact witnesses.

You interpreting his belief, not what he saw. Asst. Comm. Gregory is a fire officer, someone who has a career...Need I say more.

He says he saw it on teevee. The issue here is what he saw and heard while standing underneath the building with a birdseye view and with a responsibility to be observant and dispassionate at all times, given his rank.

If you want to interpret his statement by incorporating his apparent and presumed belief, fine, I have no problem with that. People can believe whatever they choose for as long as they choose.
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Old 17th May 2012, 12:18 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
Battalian Chief King cites his experience as a pilot of fixed wing aircraft for his determination there was no jetliner crash into the South Tower.

This is 7
Battalian Chief King cannot see through the North Tower, in which he was inside, to see the plane hit the South Tower 1000 feet above his head.

Hey jamms, it seems that he was actually in a Stairwell in the North Tower when the plane hit the South Tower.

I gotta tell ya buddy, that is some kind of SPECTACULAR fail.
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Old 17th May 2012, 12:24 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
You interpreting his belief, not what he saw. Asst. Comm. Gregory is a fire officer, someone who has a career...Need I say more.

He says he saw it on teevee. The issue here is what he saw and heard while standing underneath the building with a birdseye view and with a responsibility to be observant and dispassionate at all times, given his rank.

If you want to interpret his statement by incorporating his apparent and presumed belief, fine, I have no problem with that. People can believe whatever they choose for as long as they choose.
Meanwhile, you are doing the exact same thing with every quote you post. You purposefully take their quotes out of context. Then you throw up the "I do not deal with beliefs" or whatever it is you say. It's like saying, "I'm not racist, but <insert messed up comment about culture>." I enjoy the disclaimer, but don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining.
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Old 17th May 2012, 12:26 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
Dear Jay,

I have taken Minnie up on her challenge as posted earlier:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0&postcount=26
good for you. I'll go back and read the post.
However I was also taking issue with your characterization about debunkers being tied up with flag, patriotism and apple pie.
Persons such as yourself seem almost incapable of understanding that many if not most debunkers are on the opposite side of this discussion that you are for reasons thatare completely devoid any political impetus
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Old 17th May 2012, 12:27 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
You wish!

Debunkers have posted 0 authenticated PLANE SPOTTER witnesses, thus far. It's not yet totally out of hand, so I see no need to help debunkers do their homework for them by finding some for them.
Jesus what is wrong with you? You've been furnished with literally dozens of 'plane spotter witnesses', video, still images, radar data, dna evidence, and plane parts.

YOU'RE the one whose wishing.
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Old 17th May 2012, 12:30 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
good for you. I'll go back and read the post.
However I was also taking issue with your characterization about debunkers being tied up with flag, patriotism and apple pie.
Persons such as yourself seem almost incapable of understanding that many if not most debunkers are on the opposite side of this discussion that you are for reasons thatare completely devoid any political impetus
Indeed. The 'debunkers' are on the opposite side of this discussion because Jamm's side of the discussion is bat crap crazy. No other reason needed
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Old 17th May 2012, 12:31 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
Jesus what is wrong with you? You've been furnished with literally dozens of 'plane spotter witnesses', video, still images, radar data, dna evidence, and plane parts.

YOU'RE the one whose wishing.
I am sorry if you weren't aware, all quotes that completely go against the point he is trying to make aren't considered. This is the "I win" thread, as SHC is popular for starting. No matter what evidence is shown, quoted and gift wrapped, it doesn't count. Cause "I win."
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Old 17th May 2012, 12:32 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
Ozeco,

Would you agree with me that in more than 50 posts on this thread, I am the only poster who has sourced and linked any actual eye witnesses?...
Off topic. I have responded strictly on the topic which you defined. Put simply I seriously doubt that there can be witnesses to the subject of witness credibility....
...and none of the witnesses you source provide evidence on witness credibility. You cannot even stay on topic with your own topic. Since it is your topic maybe you can explain how there could be witnesses relevant to the topic.
Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
...And, would you agree with me that the witnesses I have sourced and linked say things that contradict the common storyline?...
Sure they do. BUT the topic you defined is "EYEWITNESS CHALLENGE: Are the NO PLANE witnesses better than PLANE SPOTTER witnesses?" where I identified the core issue as credibility. Differences between witnesses are normal and need to be accommodated in the fact determining process. And you have claimed that facts do not need to be rigorously determined for purposes of Internet discussion. A quaint suggestion at best.

And I may as well point out the obvious -- you have once again not addressed the key points I made on the topic of "EYEWITNESS CHALLENGE: Are the NO PLANE witnesses better than PLANE SPOTTER witnesses?"
Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
...Finally, Ozeco whether you post replies to me or not is your choice....
I have not been keeping score BUT I think that is the second point you have got right... HINT: Keep agreeing with me and you may get a few more points correct.

Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
... If you know of any reliable witnesses sources, do please consider posting up quotes, properly sourced and linked.

Blessings
The topic of credibility of witnesses is not one which lends to "witness sources". You seem to have difficulty separating the procedural aspects which your OP addresses from specific factual issues which are not within the scope of the OP.

And I won't be led off topic even though most other members seem happy to follow the derails.
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Old 17th May 2012, 12:33 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Battalian Chief King cannot see through the North Tower, in which he was inside, to see the plane hit the South Tower 1000 feet above his head.

Hey jamms, it seems that he was actually in a Stairwell in the North Tower when the plane hit the South Tower.

I gotta tell ya buddy, that is some kind of SPECTACULAR fail.
as pointed out by p311 jamm actually takes what Chief King thought he heard while inside the N tower but ignores his thoughts about an impact

spectacular fail indeed
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Old 17th May 2012, 12:41 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
And I won't be led off topic even though most other members seem happy to follow the derails.
This thread doesn't deserve to exist, much less to be kept on topic
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Old 17th May 2012, 12:50 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
Indeed. The 'debunkers' are on the opposite side of this discussion because Jamm's side of the discussion is bat crap crazy. No other reason needed
Conversly I find that any thread in which political motivation is introduced, that vast majority of those are introduced by 9/11 conspiracists. This would indicate political issues being of much greater significance than scientific research to them than it is to us.
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Old 17th May 2012, 01:07 PM   #187
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Has anyone else noticed that jammonius seems to have more than one standard for authenticating witnesses?

Using his standard

Plane=0

No-plane= 0

Unless we use a time machine, it has to remain this way.
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Old 17th May 2012, 01:45 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
This thread doesn't deserve to exist, much less to be kept on topic
yeah, this topic had a fork stuck in it long ago. Certain troofers just wish to remain willfully ignorant.
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Old 17th May 2012, 02:09 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
Jesus what is wrong with you? You've been furnished with literally dozens of 'plane spotter witnesses', video, still images, radar data, dna evidence, and plane parts.

YOU'RE the one whose wishing.
Here is another for good measure

Nicholas Scinicariello, 62, of Yorktown Heights, worked for the Port Authority on the 86th floor of Tower One.

"I saw the plane come in. My office faces north. I just finished my coffee and I heard my friend say, 'Oh no, oh no.' This plane was coming right at us, then it went up and hit the upper floors. I opened the door to my office. The fire alarms were all going off, the fire doors were jammed because the building had been wracked. I finally made it to one of the stairwells. The lights started to flicker on and off. The stairwells were flooded. Firemen were passing us on the way up."

He finally made it to Broadway and lay on a subway grate for a half-hour, sucking in the fresh air.
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Old 17th May 2012, 02:26 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
This thread doesn't deserve to exist,...
Agreed.
Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
... much less to be kept on topic
Understood but I disagree - which makes me a minority of one and puts you on-side with most members responding.

Jammonious cannot even specify the topic he wants to discuss OR discuss the topic he has defined.

And going along with his derails into "planes or no planes" only plays into his hands.

So I had my three posts of pedantic precision for practice.

I tend to count my posting as successful when I get no response to what I said:

It either means that I was too clever for the troll; OR
That far off target that my post deserved to be ignored.

..and it is a long time since I posted anything "off target" when responding to trolling.
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Old 17th May 2012, 02:41 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
Sw,

Your post is disengenuous. You try to sneak in through the side door the claim of plane parts and the claim of passenger DNA. There is not one shred of verified evidence of any plane part at all.
Plane parts and passenger DNA are not claims, they are physical evidence that has been archived and catalogued.

Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
I have already quoted Chief Pfeifer on not seeing any evidence of a plane upon arriving at WTC 1.
So what? Why would he see any upon arriving at WTC 1? Flight 11 struck WTC1 head on, dead center and went completely into the building. There were very few parts of AA11 found outside. All the parts found outside the complex were from Flight 175, because it hit WTC 2 on a corner edge, forcing a lot of the debris to fall outside the building's confines.

Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
Likewise, there is no confirmed, validated evidence of any passenger DNA.

All sources of and for DNA claims are second hand, at best, third hand, shrouded in mystery, deception and misrepresentation.
Bull. Fragments of 52 of AA11's 87 passengers and crew and 26 of the 60 on UA175 have been positively identified by comparing the samples to DNA samples provided by the victims families. Most of the IDs were made by the New York City medical examiners office but some of the smaller fragments required help from the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory because they are very experienced in finding damaged remains, extracting testable sequences, and getting results from them.


Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
Yes, the question is simple. The answer is concise. The proper characterization is "missing, presumed dead" or "cause of death, undetermined."
BS. The cause of death of all passengers is known to all. They were murdered in deliberate plane crashes and you have no evidence to the contrary. Deal with it.

Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
They were right under the explosion, but a plane didn't come crashing down on them. Hmmm.
Why would it? The plane was going fast enough to force it's way into the building. Did you expect it to bounce off and fall down into the street?

Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
Are you talking about Moussaui? The guy who was wearing a stun-belt during his testimony?

Why do you trust his words, anyway?
To my knowledge there is no actual evidence that this is true other than the speculation of a single journalist, although a highly reputable one. If it's true, it would probably be due to the fact that Moussaoui was prone to very violent outbursts and they wouldn't want a situation in court to escalate to the point where he needed to be shot.

Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
Those who didn't see a plane when looking at the towers before the south tower exploded, prove beyond all doubt that no real plane impacted it.
No, they merely prove that they personally didn't see one. Nothing more, nothing less. They certainly don't invalidate the testimony of thousands who did see them.

Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
Cloud, obliterates the absurd conclusion that dumb arabs really flew planes into buildings on 911. His real-time account combined with 4 news broadcasts that show an object 5-10 times smaller than a chopper prove the NRPT. He says it over and over and over. He was watching the towers and didn't see any plane because there was no plane to see.

"I just caught the second explosion on videotape...No, a bomb, I saw it, no plane hit nothin', the building exploded from the other tower floors down."

http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...FSoupcom-1.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2unT...ure=plpp_video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTkzxaHAcNc

But I can see the plane coming in right there in your little gif. It's even clear enough to make out the wings.


Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Is it the first sign of the apocalypse when they throw open the gates of the Asylum?
Apparently. And I actually thought the full moon had passed without incident.
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Old 17th May 2012, 02:47 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by yodaluver28 View Post

Why would it? The plane was going fast enough to force it's way into the building. Did you expect it to bounce off and fall down into the street?

I'm fairly sure she expected the building to bend over and fling the plane back to Boston.


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Old 17th May 2012, 03:06 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I don't think the no planers are real. I haven't seen any credible testimony that they have been seen posting this stuff.
This is spot on. The No-planers are unreal.
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Old 17th May 2012, 03:10 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
Sweet! Now there are 3!

7 believes mysterious orbs hit the towers...

Tracy thinks they were holograms..

and Jammy doesn't believe anything hit the towers.

Who do we believe?
4.) None of the above. ◄
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Old 17th May 2012, 03:24 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
Two of them were on the street near the WTC itself, in lower Manhattan. Neither of these individuals saw a plane, even though they both were looking at the buildings at the moment that a plane is said to have hit WTC 2.
Where exactly were they standing?
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Old 17th May 2012, 04:41 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
Are you talking about Moussaui? The guy who was wearing a stun-belt during his testimony?

Why do you trust his words, anyway?
Actually, I was extending the analogy in the post I referenced.

Do try and keep up.
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Old 17th May 2012, 05:16 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
Dear Jay,

I have taken Minnie up on her challenge as posted earlier:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0&postcount=26
I read the post you linked to.
Did you say there anywhere that you had gone to the FD station as per the challenge?

In fact that was the post to which I referred when speaking to your accusation of political motivations.
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Old 17th May 2012, 08:59 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
<snipped nonsensical blathering>

Jammonius, I meant it quite sincerely when I wrote:

Originally Posted by LashL View Post
This thread is ridiculous on its face.


That is all.

and when I also wrote:

Originally Posted by LashL View Post
Indeed, and in only 17 words.

/thread

Accordingly, I will not respond further to your nonsensical posts in this thread because (a) you appear to be unable and unwilling to stick to the subject matter of your own OP and (b) your subsequent posts are plainly and obviously naught but blatant trolling and entirely unworthy of any further response.
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Old 17th May 2012, 09:12 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
So apparently "never saw the plane" means "there was no plane", but the witnesses who DID see a plane actually didn't. Gotcha/
This is what happens when twoofers split hairs: It just adds to their confusion.
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Old 17th May 2012, 11:11 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by cjnewson88 View Post
Step 4: /Thread
Fat chance. It's up to five pages in just about a day.
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