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Old 18th May 2012, 10:38 AM   #241
jaydeehess
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
Greetings 16.5,

One of your apparently unstated assumptions appears to be that no one can hear anything on the outside if they are in the Stairwell of the North Tower. If that is your assumption, then there are a couple of things that might be worthy of considering.
That is not what I took 16.5 to be saying. I understand that 16.5 is saying that sound from outside is altered/distorted/muffled when being heard from inside a stairwell. Here's a test. Go find a large building(an apartment building will do) on a very busy street, with and interior stairwell. As you enter the building note the sound of the street traffic outside, then inside, then again in the stairwell. A hotel I stay at frequently is only 4 storeys high, it is next to a busy street and only a few blocks away from a fire station. Consequently the sound of a siren is rather common. Because its only 4 storeys high I use the stairs to get down to the lobby when I am not toting luggage. The sirens ARE quite muffled and I do not hear them for as long. ( i.e. the truck must be closer before I even begin to hear them.)This is for a fairly simple sound that cannot be mistaken for anything else and for a vehicle that is at close to the same level as I am.

Quote:
Firstly, Battalion Chief King can be presumed not to have shared in your assumption as his statement clearly implies that had there been a Boeing 767 in the vicinity of 1000ft up from his vicinity (albeit inside of the North Tower) and if the jetliner was zooming along at 500+mph, as is postulated, then, in that event, he, King, would have heard it.
Not sure how you understand that! King states he did not at the time think it was a Boeing or other large aircraft but that he thought it might have been a helicopter flying way too close. He never states that he is sure that had it been a large jet aircraft that he would definately have known it was.

Quote:
King, who might well be worthy of the title FIRST NO PLANER, is clear in his statement. I won't re-quote it or re-cite it here as I was the one who quoted it and who cited it in the first place. Suffice to say King based his skepticism of the jetliner claim on the fact that he did not hear one.
Is King still skeptical about it being a Boeing? If not then when did he change his mind?
Furthermore King DID hear something and you claim it was not an aircraft. So what did King hear? To my knowledge NO ONE outside thought they heard a helicopter coimng in. Most who describe what they heard say it was the sound of a jet aircraft. So if TPTB who arranged fake planes also arranged fake jet aircraft sounds why does King, who cannot see and is only going by what he heard, think it was a helicopter? Did TPTB arrange for chopper sounds in the stairwell for some really odd reason? If not and King was hearing the same sound everyone else did then he heard the sound of a jet aircraft and the alteration of the sound by his being in a stairwell caused him to misinterpret the sound.
Since all he could do is hear, obviously misinterpreted what he heard, and could not possible be an eyewitness to what hit the tower he cannot be a no-planer.

Jammonious, failing again!

Quote:
I think it might have been Lefty who offered up rationalization on why a Boeing 767@<1000ft@500+mph couldn't be clearly heard; and, it is possible some debunkers might be convinced by that.
Again who said it could not be heard? It WOULD be distorted and muffled. Jeez, anyone who has been in a stairwell should glom onto that fact.


Quote:
<<snip reiteration of nonsense about no possibility of hearing the aircraft>>........Others can also claim that the lack of any known record of anyone at all being treated for damage to their ears as a result of not one but two jetliners screaming around Lower Manhattan on 9/11 is also perfectly understandable. As for me, I think the lack of sound of jetliners is more consistent with the claim there were none.
Personally I worked on the localizer and glide slope ground stations of ILSs. The glide slope building is approx 100 feet to one side of the runway, the localizer building about the same off the end of the runway. I have been at both buildings, at vaious times either inside the building and standing outside, while 747's took off (you know, when the engines are producing a great deal of power. Yes they scream and yes they are quite loud and yes, sustained sound levels like that would severely damage one's hearing. Yet my hearing, even now, 30 years afterwards, as well as the hearing of the several others who i worked with, is fine(with the occassional exception of not hearing my wife tell me something )
IOW, your statement above is nonsense.

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Old 18th May 2012, 10:40 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
Hey Lurkers,

There is nothing in the above that offers up any rational refutation, of either Battalion Chief King or of any other witness claim. What is worse, there are not even any quotes from witnesses who said they did hear a jetliner.

It is one thing to continue to harp on my witness quotes; it is quite another to fail to offer up any plane spotter eye or ear witness accounts.
Did you forget your OP? Are your witnesses "better"? That is what it says, so kindly cut off you whining when I point out that your characterization of King's statement is borderline fraud.

He was in the North Tower, you admit that, and the rest of your argument is from your own personal incredulity, and no one cares because your credibility is completely shot.

Thanks!
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Old 18th May 2012, 10:41 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Scott Sommers View Post
Jammi, I have to admit that I'm one of your biggest fans. You're pretty much the only one of our Truther friends - and the only No-planer - I haven't put on IGNORE. I hope that puts me in a special place where you won't avoid my questions.

Now it's pretty clear that no one here cares about your arguments. No one cares about how things could have been dustified, whatever that is. No one cares about your arguments that umpteen zillion videos were faked or that witnesses were lying or being misquoted. No one cares that you think there are witnesses who should have seen something but didn't. No one cares. And there aren't people marching in the streets. And no politicians are talking about this. And no one is asking them about this, even when John McCain had his town meeting campaign. No one cares Jammi, not here, not there, not anywhere...

So I gotta ask you, who are you hoping will read this? In the past, you said something about all those readers who are really swayed by the power and logic of your evidence but sit by silently while others laugh at you.

You know...there are no lurkers. If you keep track of the number of posts and views and the forum members who post anti-Truther stuff on other posts but not here (like me), you'll see there is no vast army of lurkers swayed by your magic.

But I don't mean to be sarcastic. I just mean that if you want to sway me, stop posting this stuff about faked videos and witnesses who saw nothing. Here's a list of some of the things I want to see. I promise you, if I see any of them, I will donate a month's salary to Judy Wood. And God knows...she must need the money these days.

So here's what I want to see
1) the dustifcation machine...Hell...I might even go for a clear explanation of what dustification really is.
2) an interview or confession of one of the staff who faked the 9/11 attacks - and I mean the part about the planes crashing.
3) firefighters or other First Responders talking about how all the steel turned to dust - or something like that.

'Cause without any of these, it's all horse urine to me. It's just a kid's story about that Lex Luthor fellow and how he found the lost Kryptonite. Give me something I can chew on and I'll give Judy my money.

Greetings Scott,

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, nor would I try to do that. If you are satisfied that your questions, presumably requiring a similar level and degree of proof to satisfy you, concerning the common storyline have been answered, then fine. Stick with that. There's no need for you to consider the proof offered by Judy Wood or, as you say, the arguments I present.

My only request of you is that if there is a source where your questions concerning the validity of the common storyline of 9/11 were satisfactorily answered, would you please name it. I'd be very interested in reviewing that source.

Blessings
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Old 18th May 2012, 10:45 AM   #244
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Are posters going to post up PLANE SPOTTER witness quotes, ever?
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Old 18th May 2012, 10:47 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
Are posters going to post up PLANE SPOTTER witness quotes, ever?
Why not full links?

https://sites.google.com/site/wtc7li...untsofthenycai
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Old 18th May 2012, 10:51 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
Are posters going to post up PLANE SPOTTER witness quotes, ever?
Why should we?
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Old 18th May 2012, 10:51 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Did you forget your OP? Are your witnesses "better"? That is what it says, so kindly cut off you whining when I point out that your characterization of King's statement is borderline fraud.

He was in the North Tower, you admit that, and the rest of your argument is from your own personal incredulity, and no one cares because your credibility is completely shot.

Thanks!
If the claim you are making is that you are not going to post up PLANE SPOTTER witnesses because the OP does not request it, you are mistaken:

From the OP:

"I should hope that plane spotter posters will post up actual witness accounts as I have done."
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Old 18th May 2012, 10:52 AM   #248
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Quote:
There is nothing in the above that offers up any rational refutation, of either Battalion Chief King or of any other witness claim. What is worse, there are not even any quotes from witnesses who said they did hear a jetliner.
Really? Do not most of your own witnesses say they heard a plane?

As for refutation of your interpretation of what King said, see my post 241 above.
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Old 18th May 2012, 10:53 AM   #249
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Any claim of what any witness "should have heard" that does not take into account the speed of sound, the speed of the plane, and the distances and geometry involved, is of no value whatsoever and should be completely ignored.

Here's an example of why: suppose a plane impacts a structure, at a speed of 500 miles per hour (733 fps), and a witness is positioned 1000 feet beyond the impact point along the plane's trajectory. At the moment of impact, the most recent sound emitted by the plane that could possibly have reached the witness was emitted over 2.5 seconds earlier, when the plane was still 1,865 feet from impact and 2,865 feet (over half a mile) from the witness. Thus if that witness sees the explosion, he or she sees it before hearing any sound from it except for the rather ordinary sound of an airplane half a mile away.

Respectfully,
Myriad
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Old 18th May 2012, 10:55 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Why should we?
If you don't, the odds will no longer be in your favah...

Even in the OP, I had the foresight not to strictly demand posters post up PLANE SPOTTER claims. I merely said I should hope they would do so, and also post up sources and links.

Posters don't have to do anything they do not wish to do in their posting here. All I'm saying here is that it is surprising to me that posters have not posted up any plane spotter witnesses. I said "surprised" not "disappointed". People can post as they see fit.
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Old 18th May 2012, 10:55 AM   #251
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At that time Chief Ganci was behind me and he thought there was another explosion in the north tower and that's when I turned around and said Chief, listen, there is a second plane that hit the other tower. He was like no no no no, we have another explosion. I said no, Chief, I witnessed it. I watched the plane hit the other tower. He is like are you sure. I said Chief, I'm 100 hundred percent positive I watched the second plane hit the other tower. FDNY firefighter Scott Holowach
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Old 18th May 2012, 10:57 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
If you don't, the odds will no longer be in your favah...

Even in the OP, I had the foresight not to strictly demand posters post up PLANE SPOTTER claims. I merely said I should hope they would do so, and also post up sources and links.

Posters don't have to do anything they do not wish to do in their posting here. All I'm saying here is that it is surprising to me that posters have not posted up any plane spotter witnesses. I said "surprised" not "disappointed". People can post as they see fit.
But nothing you've done is worth refuting.
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Old 18th May 2012, 10:59 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
That source has some witness quotes and some newspaper articles. The point here is to offer up statements that are thought to be worthy, based on source, on location of witness and other reliability factors. Thus, imho, merely offering up a link to a debunker webpage is not worthy.
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Old 18th May 2012, 11:01 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
That source has some witness quotes and some newspaper articles. The point here is to offer up statements that are thought to be worthy, based on source, on location of witness and other reliability factors. Thus, imho, merely offering up a link to a debunker webpage is not worthy.
Ah so you need to cherry pick out of context. I see. It's not like that wasn't obvious but the admission that's what you're doing makes it more special.
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Old 18th May 2012, 11:01 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Any claim of what any witness "should have heard" that does not take into account the speed of sound, the speed of the plane, and the distances and geometry involved, is of no value whatsoever and should be completely ignored.

Here's an example of why: suppose a plane impacts a structure, at a speed of 500 miles per hour (733 fps), and a witness is positioned 1000 feet beyond the impact point along the plane's trajectory. At the moment of impact, the most recent sound emitted by the plane that could possibly have reached the witness was emitted over 2.5 seconds earlier, when the plane was still 1,865 feet from impact and 2,865 feet (over half a mile) from the witness. Thus if that witness sees the explosion, he or she sees it before hearing any sound from it except for the rather ordinary sound of an airplane half a mile away.

Respectfully,
Myriad
That first sound is then the sound when the aircraft is 3800+ feet line of sight from the person.
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Old 18th May 2012, 11:01 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
That source has some witness quotes and some newspaper articles. The point here is to offer up statements that are thought to be worthy, based on source, on location of witness and other reliability factors. Thus, imho, merely offering up a link to a debunker webpage is not worthy.
Those things are all in the link.

Are you afraid to look?
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Old 18th May 2012, 11:02 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
But nothing you've done is worth refuting.
Wait, Craig, are you sure you want to put it that way? While it is a surprise to me that there are no PLANE SPOTTER quotes as yet, the one thing that is clear is that posters seem bound and determined to engage in what they claim is refutation of my posts.

What, on earth, are you talking about?

No need to answer that; just post up some PLANE SPOTTER quotes, if you please.
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Old 18th May 2012, 11:05 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Those things are all in the link.

Are you afraid to look?
Posters are either going to post up PLANE SPOTTER quotes or they are not. It matters not to me. Heads up, though, I expect to post up many more examples of NO PLANE quotes as time goes by...
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Old 18th May 2012, 11:06 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
If the claim you are making is that you are not going to post up PLANE SPOTTER witnesses because the OP does not request it, you are mistaken:

From the OP:

"I should hope that plane spotter posters will post up actual witness accounts as I have done."
what a baffling statement.

here, let me quote your headline champ:

EYEWITNESS CHALLENGE: Are the NO PLANE witnesses better than PLANE SPOTTER witnesses?

And you are whining that I am challenging your characterization of your witnesses to show that they are not "better" because you are intentionally omitting things?

C'mon, jamms, man up.

By the way, you alsoi lied when you said that the interviews were verified, but you are a lawyer, you knew that already.

FAIL.
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Old 18th May 2012, 11:06 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
That is not what I took 16.5 to be saying. I understand that 16.5 is saying that sound from outside is altered/distorted/muffled when being heard from inside a stairwell. Here's a test. Go find a large building(an apartment building will do) on a very busy street, with and interior stairwell. As you enter the building note the sound of the street traffic outside, then inside, then again in the stairwell. A hotel I stay at frequently is only 4 storeys high, it is next to a busy street and only a few blocks away from a fire station. Consequently the sound of a siren is rather common. Because its only 4 storeys high I use the stairs to get down to the lobby when I am not toting luggage. The sirens ARE quite muffled and I do not hear them for as long. ( i.e. the truck must be closer before I even begin to hear them.)This is for a fairly simple sound that cannot be mistaken for anything else and for a vehicle that is at close to the same level as I am.



Not sure how you understand that! King states he did not at the time think it was a Boeing or other large aircraft but that he thought it might have been a helicopter flying way too close. He never states that he is sure that had it been a large jet aircraft that he would definately have known it was.



Is King still skeptical about it being a Boeing? If not then when did he change his mind?
Furthermore King DID hear something and you claim it was not an aircraft. So what did King hear? To my knowledge NO ONE outside thought they heard a helicopter coimng in. Most who describe what they heard say it was the sound of a jet aircraft. So if TPTB who arranged fake planes also arranged fake jet aircraft sounds why does King, who cannot see and is only going by what he heard, think it was a helicopter? Did TPTB arrange for chopper sounds in the stairwell for some really odd reason? If not and King was hearing the same sound everyone else did then he heard the sound of a jet aircraft and the alteration of the sound by his being in a stairwell caused him to misinterpret the sound.
Since all he could do is hear, obviously misinterpreted what he heard, and could not possible be an eyewitness to what hit the tower he cannot be a no-planer.



Again who said it could not be heard? It WOULD be distorted and muffled. Jeez, anyone who has been in a stairwell should glom onto that fact.




Personally I worked on the localizer and glide slope ground stations of ILSs. The glide slope building is approx 100 feet to one side of the runway, the localizer building about the same off the end of the runway. I have been at both buildings, at vaious times either inside the building and standing outside, while 747's took off (you know, when the engines are producing a great deal of power. Yes they scream and yes they are quite loud and yes, sustained sound levels like that would severely damage one's hearing. Yet my hearing, even now, 30 years afterwards, as well as the hearing of the several others who i worked with, is fine(with the occassional exception of not hearing my wife tell me something )
IOW, your statement above is nonsense.
Jammonious, with the rate this thread increases perhaps you missed the above.

If King did not hear a plane but your other witnesses say they did hear a plane then how do you reconcile these two different opinions of what was heard, and if King was simply mistaken about what he heard and obviously could not see what occured outside then how can he possibly be a no=plane witness?
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Old 18th May 2012, 11:07 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
Posters are either going to post up PLANE SPOTTER quotes or they are not. It matters not to me. Heads up, though, I expect to post up many more examples of NO PLANE quotes as time goes by...
Why did you skip my post #251?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...53#post8296753
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Old 18th May 2012, 11:09 AM   #262
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,,,,,,,,, and with that I bid you all goodbye. Its a long weekend north of the big border and I'm gonna enjoy it
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Old 18th May 2012, 11:09 AM   #263
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Isn't everybody in New York who didn't see the planes a no-plane witness?
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Old 18th May 2012, 11:10 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
,,, and 241


ok now I am really going bye
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Old 18th May 2012, 11:10 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
Wait, Craig, are you sure you want to put it that way? While it is a surprise to me that there are no PLANE SPOTTER quotes as yet, the one thing that is clear is that posters seem bound and determined to engage in what they claim is refutation of my posts.

What, on earth, are you talking about?

No need to answer that; just post up some PLANE SPOTTER quotes, if you please.
There by accomplishing what?
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Old 18th May 2012, 11:15 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
That first sound is then the sound when the aircraft is 3800+ feet line of sight from the person.

No, it's 2800 feet (I already added the 1000 foot distance of the witness). And it's not the "first sound," because the plane is traveling less than the speed of sound so the witness could have heard it earlier while it was at even greater distances. There is no sudden onset of sound, just the ordinary daily urban background noise of a plane gradually growing closer but still a distance away.

The sound of the plane 2800 feet away is the last (as in, most recent) sound the witness hears at the moment of seeing the impact.

In the subsequent second, the witness then hears the sound of the plane's final 1800 feet of approach, the impact, and the beginning of the fuel-air explosion -- which would all just seem like one big "explosion sound" to most people.
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Old 18th May 2012, 11:17 AM   #267
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Thank you, Myriad.
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Old 18th May 2012, 11:19 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
That source has some witness quotes and some newspaper articles. The point here is to offer up statements that are thought to be worthy, based on source, on location of witness and other reliability factors. Thus, imho, merely offering up a link to a debunker webpage is not worthy.
Why don't you just pick one then?
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Last edited by twinstead; 18th May 2012 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 18th May 2012, 11:25 AM   #269
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Here's one: "I saw and heard both planes as they crashed into the towers."
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Old 18th May 2012, 11:45 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
Posters are either going to post up PLANE SPOTTER quotes or they are not. It matters not to me. Heads up, though, I expect to post up many more examples of NO PLANE quotes as time goes by...
Nice strategy. Make the hijack conspiracists prove their case.
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Old 18th May 2012, 11:53 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
Nice strategy. Make the hijack conspiracists prove their case.
Strategy to what end? Did the FDNY fire fighter in post #251 lie? You're in NYC, maybe you should ask him why he did this.


Bet you won't.
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Old 18th May 2012, 11:57 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by 7forever View Post
First of all, the blob in Clifton's altered video IS NOT SEEN flying south of where it appeared out of thin air. I took a picture of a distant plane, and compared to the blob it reveals reality. The black blob was added by whomever Cloud turned his footage over to and supports that no real plane was involved in T2.

http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...loudblob-1.jpg
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...tplanezoom.jpg
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...FSoupcom-1.gif
Why do you keep showing a plane and saying there's no plane?
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Old 18th May 2012, 11:59 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
Nice strategy. Make the hijack conspiracists prove their case.
The prosecution rests. The "hijack conspiracists" case has been presented, is a matter of public record, and is the commonly-held narrative of events.

It's time for the defense to present their case. Begin.
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Old 18th May 2012, 12:15 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
Nice strategy. Make the hijack conspiracists prove their case.
Not only has the case been made, it's been closed. The only refugees left disputing it are Delusional Dustification Ditzes (DDDs), Fevered Foamification Fantasizers (FFFs) and Nattering No-plane Ne'er-do-wells (NNNs).
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Old 18th May 2012, 12:31 PM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7forever
First of all, the blob in Clifton's altered video IS NOT SEEN flying south of where it appeared out of thin air. I took a picture of a distant plane, and compared to the blob it reveals reality. The black blob was added by whomever Cloud turned his footage over to and supports that no real plane was involved in T2.

http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...loudblob-1.jpg
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...tplanezoom.jpg
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...FSoupcom-1.gif
I din't know you could see the 9/11 Twin Towers and planes from Boston.
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Old 18th May 2012, 12:33 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
Dave,

With all due respect, can you please post up specific statements and quotes that you think are valid PLANE SPOTTER claims?


Thanks
So you can vilify them some more? I think not.
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Old 18th May 2012, 12:37 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Your post refers to Scott Holowach. I quoted and discussed him in the OP, DGM. We've had several posts about him. As you may have noticed, LashL then fashioned a claim that I had taken his information out of context and had improperly embellished by saying "right next" as my interpretation of Holowach's reference to Chief Ganci as being "behind" him.

Scott Holowach's weakness, imho, is that he describes a path of zee plane that is inconsistent and incongruent; thus, as between his plane spotting and his superior officer's claim it was an explosion, I, speaking for me, am inclined to accredit Ganci and not Holowach.

In any event, both cannot be correct; except to the extent Holowach saw a plane in the sky that did not crash into the South Tower.


Blessings
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Old 18th May 2012, 12:40 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
Nice strategy. Make the hijack conspiracists prove their case.
WTC Dust,

I cannot make them do anything and I wouldn't try. In fact, if they think I'm trying to make them do something, chances are they'll resist. I do think it quite remarkable, however, that those among them who claim there are "1000s of eyewitnesses" to zee planes have not produced a single, credible, verifiable one. Not one.

I think that failure is rather glaring. You agree?
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Old 18th May 2012, 12:41 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
Your post refers to Scott Holowach. I quoted and discussed him in the OP, DGM. We've had several posts about him. As you may have noticed, LashL then fashioned a claim that I had taken his information out of context and had improperly embellished by saying "right next" as my interpretation of Holowach's reference to Chief Ganci as being "behind" him.

Scott Holowach's weakness, imho, is that he describes a path of zee plane that is inconsistent and incongruent; thus, as between his plane spotting and his superior officer's claim it was an explosion, I, speaking for me, am inclined to accredit Ganci and not Holowach.

In any event, both cannot be correct; except to the extent Holowach saw a plane in the sky that did not crash into the South Tower.


Blessings
So you're claiming he lied?

How am I not surprised?

Maybe you can get Dr Tracy to go down to the firehouse and ask him why he did this.

I'll be in NYC in a couple weeks, I'll give her a ride. You want to join us?
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Old 18th May 2012, 12:41 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by jammonius View Post
Posters are either going to post up PLANE SPOTTER quotes or they are not. It matters not to me. Heads up, though, I expect to post up many more examples of NO PLANE quotes as time goes by...
If it doesn't matter why natter on about it?
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