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18th May 2012, 10:38 AM | #241 |
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That is not what I took 16.5 to be saying. I understand that 16.5 is saying that sound from outside is altered/distorted/muffled when being heard from inside a stairwell. Here's a test. Go find a large building(an apartment building will do) on a very busy street, with and interior stairwell. As you enter the building note the sound of the street traffic outside, then inside, then again in the stairwell. A hotel I stay at frequently is only 4 storeys high, it is next to a busy street and only a few blocks away from a fire station. Consequently the sound of a siren is rather common. Because its only 4 storeys high I use the stairs to get down to the lobby when I am not toting luggage. The sirens ARE quite muffled and I do not hear them for as long. ( i.e. the truck must be closer before I even begin to hear them.)This is for a fairly simple sound that cannot be mistaken for anything else and for a vehicle that is at close to the same level as I am.
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Furthermore King DID hear something and you claim it was not an aircraft. So what did King hear? To my knowledge NO ONE outside thought they heard a helicopter coimng in. Most who describe what they heard say it was the sound of a jet aircraft. So if TPTB who arranged fake planes also arranged fake jet aircraft sounds why does King, who cannot see and is only going by what he heard, think it was a helicopter? Did TPTB arrange for chopper sounds in the stairwell for some really odd reason? If not and King was hearing the same sound everyone else did then he heard the sound of a jet aircraft and the alteration of the sound by his being in a stairwell caused him to misinterpret the sound. Since all he could do is hear, obviously misinterpreted what he heard, and could not possible be an eyewitness to what hit the tower he cannot be a no-planer. Jammonious, failing again!
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IOW, your statement above is nonsense. |
18th May 2012, 10:40 AM | #242 |
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Did you forget your OP? Are your witnesses "better"? That is what it says, so kindly cut off you whining when I point out that your characterization of King's statement is borderline fraud.
He was in the North Tower, you admit that, and the rest of your argument is from your own personal incredulity, and no one cares because your credibility is completely shot. Thanks! |
18th May 2012, 10:41 AM | #243 |
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Greetings Scott, I'm not trying to convince you of anything, nor would I try to do that. If you are satisfied that your questions, presumably requiring a similar level and degree of proof to satisfy you, concerning the common storyline have been answered, then fine. Stick with that. There's no need for you to consider the proof offered by Judy Wood or, as you say, the arguments I present. My only request of you is that if there is a source where your questions concerning the validity of the common storyline of 9/11 were satisfactorily answered, would you please name it. I'd be very interested in reviewing that source. Blessings |
18th May 2012, 10:45 AM | #244 |
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Are posters going to post up PLANE SPOTTER witness quotes, ever?
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18th May 2012, 10:47 AM | #245 |
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18th May 2012, 10:51 AM | #246 |
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18th May 2012, 10:51 AM | #247 |
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18th May 2012, 10:52 AM | #248 |
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As for refutation of your interpretation of what King said, see my post 241 above. |
18th May 2012, 10:53 AM | #249 |
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Any claim of what any witness "should have heard" that does not take into account the speed of sound, the speed of the plane, and the distances and geometry involved, is of no value whatsoever and should be completely ignored.
Here's an example of why: suppose a plane impacts a structure, at a speed of 500 miles per hour (733 fps), and a witness is positioned 1000 feet beyond the impact point along the plane's trajectory. At the moment of impact, the most recent sound emitted by the plane that could possibly have reached the witness was emitted over 2.5 seconds earlier, when the plane was still 1,865 feet from impact and 2,865 feet (over half a mile) from the witness. Thus if that witness sees the explosion, he or she sees it before hearing any sound from it except for the rather ordinary sound of an airplane half a mile away. Respectfully, Myriad |
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18th May 2012, 10:55 AM | #250 |
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If you don't, the odds will no longer be in your favah...
Even in the OP, I had the foresight not to strictly demand posters post up PLANE SPOTTER claims. I merely said I should hope they would do so, and also post up sources and links. Posters don't have to do anything they do not wish to do in their posting here. All I'm saying here is that it is surprising to me that posters have not posted up any plane spotter witnesses. I said "surprised" not "disappointed". People can post as they see fit. |
18th May 2012, 10:55 AM | #251 |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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18th May 2012, 10:57 AM | #252 |
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18th May 2012, 10:59 AM | #253 |
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That source has some witness quotes and some newspaper articles. The point here is to offer up statements that are thought to be worthy, based on source, on location of witness and other reliability factors. Thus, imho, merely offering up a link to a debunker webpage is not worthy.
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18th May 2012, 11:01 AM | #254 |
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18th May 2012, 11:01 AM | #255 |
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18th May 2012, 11:01 AM | #256 |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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18th May 2012, 11:02 AM | #257 |
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Wait, Craig, are you sure you want to put it that way? While it is a surprise to me that there are no PLANE SPOTTER quotes as yet, the one thing that is clear is that posters seem bound and determined to engage in what they claim is refutation of my posts.
What, on earth, are you talking about? No need to answer that; just post up some PLANE SPOTTER quotes, if you please. |
18th May 2012, 11:05 AM | #258 |
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18th May 2012, 11:06 AM | #259 |
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what a baffling statement.
here, let me quote your headline champ: EYEWITNESS CHALLENGE: Are the NO PLANE witnesses better than PLANE SPOTTER witnesses? And you are whining that I am challenging your characterization of your witnesses to show that they are not "better" because you are intentionally omitting things? C'mon, jamms, man up. By the way, you alsoi lied when you said that the interviews were verified, but you are a lawyer, you knew that already. FAIL. |
18th May 2012, 11:06 AM | #260 |
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Jammonious, with the rate this thread increases perhaps you missed the above.
If King did not hear a plane but your other witnesses say they did hear a plane then how do you reconcile these two different opinions of what was heard, and if King was simply mistaken about what he heard and obviously could not see what occured outside then how can he possibly be a no=plane witness? |
18th May 2012, 11:07 AM | #261 |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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18th May 2012, 11:09 AM | #262 |
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,,,,,,,,, and with that I bid you all goodbye. Its a long weekend north of the big border and I'm gonna enjoy it
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18th May 2012, 11:09 AM | #263 |
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Isn't everybody in New York who didn't see the planes a no-plane witness?
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18th May 2012, 11:10 AM | #264 |
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18th May 2012, 11:10 AM | #265 |
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18th May 2012, 11:15 AM | #266 |
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No, it's 2800 feet (I already added the 1000 foot distance of the witness). And it's not the "first sound," because the plane is traveling less than the speed of sound so the witness could have heard it earlier while it was at even greater distances. There is no sudden onset of sound, just the ordinary daily urban background noise of a plane gradually growing closer but still a distance away. The sound of the plane 2800 feet away is the last (as in, most recent) sound the witness hears at the moment of seeing the impact. In the subsequent second, the witness then hears the sound of the plane's final 1800 feet of approach, the impact, and the beginning of the fuel-air explosion -- which would all just seem like one big "explosion sound" to most people. |
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18th May 2012, 11:17 AM | #267 |
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Thank you, Myriad.
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18th May 2012, 11:19 AM | #268 |
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18th May 2012, 11:25 AM | #269 |
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Here's one: "I saw and heard both planes as they crashed into the towers."
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18th May 2012, 11:45 AM | #270 |
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The World Trade Center did not collapse. It was turned into dust while it was standing there, and then the dust fell to the ground. |
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18th May 2012, 11:53 AM | #271 |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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18th May 2012, 11:57 AM | #272 |
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18th May 2012, 11:59 AM | #273 |
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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. -- Harlan Ellison |
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18th May 2012, 12:15 PM | #274 |
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18th May 2012, 12:31 PM | #275 |
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In Your Guts You Know They're Nuts. "There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true." -Kierkegaard . "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. "- Marcus Aurelius A Truther is a True Believer convinced by lies. You can't reason someone out of a thing they weren't reasoned into.There's a sucker born every minute-Barnum |
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18th May 2012, 12:33 PM | #276 |
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18th May 2012, 12:37 PM | #277 |
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Your post refers to Scott Holowach. I quoted and discussed him in the OP, DGM. We've had several posts about him. As you may have noticed, LashL then fashioned a claim that I had taken his information out of context and had improperly embellished by saying "right next" as my interpretation of Holowach's reference to Chief Ganci as being "behind" him.
Scott Holowach's weakness, imho, is that he describes a path of zee plane that is inconsistent and incongruent; thus, as between his plane spotting and his superior officer's claim it was an explosion, I, speaking for me, am inclined to accredit Ganci and not Holowach. In any event, both cannot be correct; except to the extent Holowach saw a plane in the sky that did not crash into the South Tower. Blessings |
18th May 2012, 12:40 PM | #278 |
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WTC Dust,
I cannot make them do anything and I wouldn't try. In fact, if they think I'm trying to make them do something, chances are they'll resist. I do think it quite remarkable, however, that those among them who claim there are "1000s of eyewitnesses" to zee planes have not produced a single, credible, verifiable one. Not one. I think that failure is rather glaring. You agree? |
18th May 2012, 12:41 PM | #279 |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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18th May 2012, 12:41 PM | #280 |
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