|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
5th July 2015, 07:51 AM | #201 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: hic.
Posts: 8,035
|
|
__________________
|
|
5th July 2015, 07:53 AM | #202 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: hic.
Posts: 8,035
|
|
__________________
|
|
5th July 2015, 09:56 AM | #203 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,758
|
IBS. Irrational Belief Solvers. Can ... doo.
|
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett "If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans "I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat |
|
5th July 2015, 11:19 AM | #204 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
|
|
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
|
5th July 2015, 11:21 AM | #205 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
|
|
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
|
5th July 2015, 11:39 AM | #206 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
|
My proof is that it cannot be proved! And that the failure of science to prove it is not evidence against it, but evidence against science!
Just a reminder: science is really just testing if a claimed result is fully reproducible and observable by any individual when the correct conditions are employed. This is clearly not true of "NDEs'". "Science is magic that works." Maarteen is claiming that NDEs are magic that doesn't work (when tested appropriately) so it isn't science. Fair enough, although that also means it isn't real or useful. There are lots of things one can imagine but which do not work or exist when tested scientifically. Maarteen appears to want to believe in these imaginary things as some new dimension. Although the result is a limitless list of imaginary events and objects, many of which I emotionally treasure and gain insight from, it is very important to remember that these things, "being beyond the reach of science," are also beyond the reach of being particularly useful in this physical reality. I continue to enjoy Sherlock Holmes stories and I have gained some insights from reading them. But trying to call on Sherlock at 221B Baker street for advice in my real life would not be particularly useful. |
5th July 2015, 12:49 PM | #207 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: hic.
Posts: 8,035
|
|
__________________
|
|
5th July 2015, 01:28 PM | #208 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Defending the Alamo
Posts: 9,931
|
I may be totally off track here, but haven't brain scans shown that the same areas of the brain are active in different individuals undergoing similar experiences - "falling in love," for instance?
If that is the case, would it be so far-fetched to think that similar areas of the brain would react similarly and create similar sensations when the brain is experiencing death or near-death? |
5th July 2015, 05:32 PM | #209 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 12,131
|
You guys stop picking on Maartenn100!
All ideas are equally valid, or something. |
__________________
"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
|
6th July 2015, 09:04 AM | #210 |
Mistral, mistral wind...
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 5,203
|
|
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
|
7th July 2015, 03:07 AM | #211 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,146
|
I have a new theory about this. Because science can't provide a good theory to explain NDE's.
It's 'the other dimension-theory'. It states that there is at least one other dimenstion (not a multiverse, but a multidimensional existence) and consciousness is the portal to other dimensions. We must, however, leave this dimension in order to experience another dimension. The experiences of the dimensions are mutually exclusive. There is no physical gate as we know it. The gate is our own mind. Consciousness. The supernatural can exist: there is no law wich forbids dimensions with laws wich are not our laws of nature. These dimensions can be called supernatural. There is no law in the universe wich forbids nature to be supernatural in other dimensions then our own. |
__________________
'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
|
7th July 2015, 03:23 AM | #212 |
Schrödinger's cat
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 16,140
|
NDEs are fully explained by our current scientific understanding of the brain, as has been pointed out multiple times. No fanciful explanation involving other dimensions is necessary or justifiable.
|
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
|
7th July 2015, 03:36 AM | #213 |
I lost an avatar bet.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 28,781
|
|
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly. |
|
7th July 2015, 03:39 AM | #214 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,758
|
|
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett "If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans "I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat |
|
7th July 2015, 03:55 AM | #215 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,146
|
The evidence = the numerous undeniable independent testimonies of their experiences (=experimental observations during an NDE) from people from all over the world.
|
__________________
'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
|
7th July 2015, 04:01 AM | #216 |
Mistral, mistral wind...
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 5,203
|
|
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
|
7th July 2015, 04:21 AM | #217 |
Schrödinger's cat
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 16,140
|
|
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
|
7th July 2015, 04:22 AM | #218 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,146
|
Some people here make the following fallacy:
"because I posted an answer, you must change your mind". Nope: it's not because you post some arguments, that these arguments are convincing. |
__________________
'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
|
7th July 2015, 04:37 AM | #219 |
Schrödinger's cat
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 16,140
|
|
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
|
7th July 2015, 06:45 AM | #220 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,758
|
|
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett "If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans "I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat |
|
7th July 2015, 09:32 AM | #221 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: hic.
Posts: 8,035
|
|
__________________
|
|
7th July 2015, 11:31 AM | #222 |
Mistral, mistral wind...
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 5,203
|
|
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
|
7th July 2015, 12:01 PM | #223 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,758
|
You were dead-on with fringe reset.
|
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett "If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans "I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat |
|
7th July 2015, 12:21 PM | #224 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,950
|
It's not magic you say? I have a new theory: it's magic!
Why do people even post here if they refuse to discuss anything? |
7th July 2015, 12:24 PM | #225 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
Is that the opposite of a Chrïstïan scientist ?
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
7th July 2015, 12:26 PM | #226 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
|
7th July 2015, 12:37 PM | #227 |
Mistral, mistral wind...
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 5,203
|
Yep. This is like Robert Harris in the JFK thread- we began there something like 30 pages ago trying to explain "burden of proof" to him, and it's circled right back around to that point again (which he still either can't get or just won't admit). Cranks are gonna crank, I guess, and the wheel always gets back to where it started- that's how they "win," not by reason, but by attrition of the reasonable who eventually tire of explaining the same old things over and over and over...
|
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
|
7th July 2015, 12:40 PM | #228 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
|
I will not allow the facts in any way to change my theory.
|
7th July 2015, 12:46 PM | #229 |
I lost an avatar bet.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 28,781
|
If I ever spend five years posting on a message board where every single poster disagrees with every single post I make, where there is nothing I can do or say to make them consider the correctness of my views, where I am forced to conclude that they are closed-minded simpletons; then please urge me to see a mental health professional.
|
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly. |
|
7th July 2015, 12:55 PM | #230 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,758
|
Even cranks need turning. Are they perpetual notion machines? Zero point energy?
|
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett "If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans "I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat |
|
7th July 2015, 01:06 PM | #231 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: hic.
Posts: 8,035
|
No you don't.
You're leeching off the irrational ideas from others you find on the internet. Do you hope that by incessantly posting your irrational ideas on a skeptics board you will gain admiration and acceptance by your fellow irrationalists? Are you trying to work on your self-esteem and identity through such shortcuts? It's better to learn something. Education education, not bare irrational fantasy and following others in their fantasies. The perceived self esteem or/and identity you possibly think you'll gain is each a false one. Be someone you can be, don't try to be someone you can never be ..... |
__________________
|
|
7th July 2015, 04:34 PM | #232 |
Mistral, mistral wind...
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 5,203
|
|
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
|
10th July 2015, 04:44 AM | #233 |
Muse
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 515
|
Aahhhh the old 'realer than real' argument. OK, its been discussed extensively from about 30 years ago though I reckon its best not to assume some people above actually read.
So, basically, when in situations like the NDE the cortex becomes massively disinhibited and hyperexcitable. If this occurs in certain regions, like the visual cortex, visual association cortex, imagery areas, etc, then the resultant imagery will be realer than real because the level of activity is so much higher than that under normal perceptual conditions. Lots of evidence for this out there in the literature (i.e., drug studies on EEG and experience). Aberrant activity = aberrant experience (in many cases) |
__________________
Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools and the beacons of wise men (Huxley) |
|
10th July 2015, 04:46 AM | #234 |
Muse
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 515
|
I see no evidence here, that those making paranormal claims, have actually read and understood the neuroscientific position on NDEs. Therefore, in essence, they are arguing against their own ignorance and confusion.
I would suggest it prudent that those 'refuting' scientific models are explicit as to what part of the model they don't like, why, and how does their view do a more explicit job |
__________________
Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools and the beacons of wise men (Huxley) |
|
10th July 2015, 05:13 AM | #235 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,296
|
I'm sure the neuroclusterbrain model explains it perfectly well....
|
__________________
What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it.... |
|
10th July 2015, 05:39 AM | #236 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,758
|
|
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett "If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans "I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat |
|
20th July 2015, 06:01 AM | #237 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,146
|
No, I doesn't agree with your 'science' wich cannot handle an eternal soul in a brain. Your whole "scientific" idea about the brain would collapse.
An eternal soul is much more reasonable then 'nothing'. What is 'nothing'? Re-incarnating in something else is the most rational evolution of our souls. |
__________________
'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
|
20th July 2015, 06:02 AM | #238 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,758
|
|
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett "If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans "I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat |
|
20th July 2015, 06:04 AM | #239 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,146
|
I know how that works.
But can you imagine your own non-existence? Your own 'not experiencing things'. You cannot even imagine such an 'idea' of not being somewhere. So, 'nothing' is not even a beginning of a scientific answer. |
__________________
'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
|
20th July 2015, 06:07 AM | #240 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,146
|
Imagine that you are 'nowhere' during billions of years. (whatever that means...)
Suddenly you reïncarnate in a bird or some organism. It's as if you reïncarnate the next moment, because you were unaware of these billions of years of 'being nowhere'. So, reïncarnation is the most reasonable solution for this problem. Nothingness is a non-scientific answer. |
__________________
'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|