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8th April 2009, 09:23 AM | #881 |
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8th April 2009, 09:25 AM | #882 |
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As a dane i have had the opportunity to read an interview with Niels Harrit, one of the authors to the article.
( http://www.videnskab.dk/content/dk/t...l_viden_om_911 ) In the interview he is asked: 'How can you be sure that what you have found is nanothermite?' His reply (paraphrased and translated by me): 'Using a method called XEDS [...] we compared the red chips to conventional thermite, and found a fingerprint-like sign that they are the same. At the same time, they [the red chips] ignite at 430C . Such a low temperature identifies it as nanothermite'. I guess one just to have refute these two points to make an ex-truther of Niels Harrit |
8th April 2009, 09:26 AM | #883 |
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8th April 2009, 09:27 AM | #884 |
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8th April 2009, 09:30 AM | #885 |
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8th April 2009, 09:31 AM | #886 |
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8th April 2009, 09:35 AM | #887 |
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8th April 2009, 09:40 AM | #888 |
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Thermite has a very HIGH ignition temperature (Usually requiring a magnesium ribbon lit by a blowtorch, or similar)....does this ignition temperature change based on the size of the reactants?
"Thermite reactions require very high temperatures for initiation. These temperatures cannot be reached with conventional black powder fuses, nitrocellulose rods, detonators, a suitable pyrotechnic initiator, or other common igniting substances. Even when the thermite is hot enough to glow bright red, it will not ignite as it must be at or near white-hot to initiate the reaction. " - Wikipedia |
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8th April 2009, 09:40 AM | #889 |
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Your supposed substantial difference between the two towers was that flight 11 hit WTC1 along the long axis of the core, whereas 175 hit WTC2 along the short axis. You're trying to say two buildings were different because the front of one wasn't the same as the side of the other.
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8th April 2009, 09:44 AM | #890 |
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*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together *A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough * To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal' |
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8th April 2009, 09:48 AM | #891 |
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In the data sheet http://www.tnemec.com/resources/product/msds/m10v.pdf it mentions "Stoddard Solvent". I'd never heard of this so a quick google reveals it's nothing more than White Spirit. Coincidentally I'm renovating an old piece of furniture atm using a mixture of 2 parts linseed oil, 1 part turpentine, 1 part vinegar, 1 part white spirit - takes of all the years of stain varnish etc, but doesn't strip the original polish and brings the wood grain up nicely.
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8th April 2009, 09:53 AM | #892 |
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The core dimensions and structures in the buildings were identical, and the rest of the structure was identically placed relative to the core. The buildings were oriented differently, which is not a substantial difference, any more so than the fact that they were in different places. Quite simply, you got it wrong.
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8th April 2009, 10:01 AM | #893 |
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I am delighted to take accurate information on board at any time. But tell me this. Both planes struck on the long face of their respective buildings. One more in the centre and one more to one side. How come the core was only 37 feet away from the entry hole in WTC1 and around 60 feet away in WTC2 ? Were the cores not aligned equidistant from the perimeter walls ?
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8th April 2009, 10:03 AM | #894 |
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8th April 2009, 10:06 AM | #895 |
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This is why you believe Jones and his liars due to your lack of knowledge and inability to research the lies they produce for people like you.
lol - long face of a 207 foot square buildings. Like square. One acre; but there is a long and short side to the core; ... This is your big problem, your failure to research anything about 911 save the lies, hearsay, and delusions you support with only talk. What was the calcium doing in the thermite chip? Zinc and chromium too? Why? The dolts put this in their paper of woo...
Quote:
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8th April 2009, 10:10 AM | #896 |
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Smells fishy
bill, another fascinating question derives from the fireproofing upgrade, regarding the alleged application of Acme Super Duper Nanothermite paint. That is, Steven Jones commented in 2007 that the grey and red chips were 'present in all four samples that I and colleagues are exploring in depth at this time'
So the chips were found in 100% of the samples he had at the time. Now then. If the ASD Nanothermite paint were applied on only the floors Kevin Ryan alludes to, what are the statistical chances of it winding up in 100% of Jones' samples? Probably extremely low, near zero. Therefore the most likely reasons: 1) the chips must be an extremely common material to have such distribution 2) if they are indeed ASD Nanothermite paint, perhaps somebody put it into the samples after they were collected. I can't think of any other scenario, can you? Something is rotten in Utah. |
8th April 2009, 10:15 AM | #897 |
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8th April 2009, 10:19 AM | #898 |
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8th April 2009, 10:22 AM | #899 |
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8th April 2009, 10:23 AM | #900 |
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Wow, still misrepresenting things I see. Forgo analysis of millions of tons of debris in favor of four specks? Sorry there was a bit more than 4 specks in their sample.
From the government report you cite:
Quote:
Come on Ryan, your a JPL guy, don't you think that misrepresentation would be called out? Rmackey-
Quote:
The biggest rebuttal happens to be a verbaige issue you don't understand? The issue of paint being the source of the controversy is covered in the paper. Typical debunker reaction to offer alternatives before reading all of the facts. Now what I would suggest to all of the alleged scientists here is publish a scientific rebuttal in a peer reviewed journal shut Dr. Jones up is(sorry your "opinion" of a journal in no way discredits the publication itself, especially Benthem.) If so, of course, you automatically reject every article at Benthem Science Journal. Not only that, you may want to contact every expert in their relevant field and let them know their research is junk because they published at Benthem, not because of their work of course, just the title of the publisher. LOL! I'm sure the great minds here should be able to type up a rebuttal and have it published by a peer review journal. I doubt that will happen of course because the debunking community will let politics get in the way of the scientific process, including scientific rebuttals. By the way, have any of you found a structure that will have the top 10% part crush down the bottom 90% yet and remain in tact? I noticed everyone avoided Heiwa's scientific challenge. I suspect because you know it can't be done. It's just like the theoretical math behind a dandelion supporting the weight of an elephant hanging over the edge of a cliff. The math says its possible, but in reality, its not. Sort of like crush down/up crap excuse for the towers collapse. But anyway, please post at 9/11 Blogger or Scholars for 9/11 Truth or and Justice or here for that matter when you have a suitable rebuttal published by a peer reviewed journal. If you can't, then your objections to the paper amount to hot air and lack scientific merit irregardless of your title. Cheers! |
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8th April 2009, 10:23 AM | #901 |
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8th April 2009, 10:27 AM | #902 |
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8th April 2009, 10:39 AM | #903 |
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Well, Iron dust will ignite at 430C.
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/i7500.htm |
8th April 2009, 10:42 AM | #904 |
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They do obey the standards of peer review. You just make a bogus claim with no evidence.
It is the NIST reports om the WTC that are not peer reviewed. They do not make their computer models public, so it would be impossible to peer review them even if someone wanted to. |
8th April 2009, 10:43 AM | #905 |
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8th April 2009, 10:50 AM | #906 |
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8th April 2009, 10:55 AM | #907 |
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ill rephrase a question i had pages back....maybe im not asking it right.
the reaction should produce iron (which jones has showed being the iron spheres) and aluminum oxide. ive seen videos where white smoke is said to be the aluminum oxide. i dont see anywhere in the paper that states they found aluminum oxide after the reaction. would it strenghthen their case if they do look and perhaps find it post reaction? |
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8th April 2009, 10:56 AM | #908 |
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MIO - Micaceous Iron Oxide - Fe2O3 is grey and shares the same characteristics under the SEM. If you look closely at this picture on the left.
Which I just love showing. You can clearly see a thin dark greyish material flaking off the surface of the steel. It's highly consistent with Jones' macrographs and would be the correct composition because Fe3O4 is known as black rust. This is why it's important to do x-ray powder diffraction or XRD tests in order to determine the crystallography of the sample which will then give you the exact compound. Fe304 has an isometric - spinnel crystal structure - http://www.reade.com/Products/Minera...magnetite.html explains properties and why it's magnetic. Fe2O3 is usually rhombohedral (rhomboidal) and non-magnetic. There is another possibility because there is another form of Fe2O3 called Maghemite, y-Fe2O3. http://webmineral.com/data/Maghemite.shtml and this has an Isometric - Tetartoidal crystal structure and is magnetic. A great site for explaining crystal shapes. EDS data will only give you the elements. In light of this photo I'm adding to my theory that the "gray layer" is most likely this "black scale" (with the continuing possibility of it being MIO). The black layer is the result of either 12 FeO(OH) --> 4 Fe3O4 + 6 H2O + O2 6 Fe2O3 --> 4 Fe3O4 + O2 Fe3O4 is haematite and is magnetic where as Fe2O3 isn't. I've read more about Jones and how they separated out this "thermite". They used a magnet. Thermite is 2Al + Fe2O3 there is no magnetic material there (unless using maghemite) so why are they using that method for separation? What they will do is pick up anything with Fe3O4 in. The red paint with Fe3O4 attached will be separated. The red paint contains Fe2O3 (in rhomboidal crystalline form, bright white in the SEM pictures). The more and more I run this through my brain the more and more the simple things come to the surface. Rather than looking at and getting carried away with the pretty pictures and spectra it's always worth gathering more information before launching into the analysis. I'd also like to thank Bill Smith, because without reading his post I wouldn't have necessarily gone back to basics - thanks truther! |
8th April 2009, 10:56 AM | #909 |
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slurp on this
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8th April 2009, 10:59 AM | #910 |
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Actually, you don't need a conspiracy theory to examine and explain the plane impacts, fires and collapses. That's just physics.
It depends whether you are trying to answer 'what', 'how' or 'why'. Truthers seem to start with 'why', answer that question with 'US government', then proceed backwards to 'what'. This unfortunately is the reverse of an objective analysis. That's why the 'truth' movement is constantly driven towards a conspiracy model, since it is the only one they are willing to consider. Make sense to you? |
8th April 2009, 11:03 AM | #911 |
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In their experiment, it ignited at 430c.
They said it was a nano technology thermite, not what you referenced.Apples and oranges. Thats like saying because Magglio Ordonez hits 320, that so so does everybody else. Thermite and nano thermite are two different players with different statistics and characteristics. If they ignited it at 430c, it ignites at 430c |
8th April 2009, 11:07 AM | #912 |
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8th April 2009, 11:09 AM | #913 |
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8th April 2009, 11:11 AM | #914 |
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The extensive list of engineers, scientists, experts, etc on the report itself was not enough for you? The NIST report was a product of many many more experts than any of jones' papers, and criticism was welcomed from anyone...including the general public. If any of jones papers had as much support from the mainstream experts that the NIST report did, I wouldn't care if he submitted them to legitimate peer review journals....it would be unnecessary.
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8th April 2009, 11:13 AM | #915 |
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HeHe......... Exactly, what we have on here are armchair quarterbacks that havent conducted scientific experiments on the dust, as these credentialed professionals have, and that being the case, they are slumped in their seats way out on center field in the boo bird section. Until i see this study scientifically refuted, i have no reason to believe its findings arent accurate. Neither does anybody else on the planet with more than one brain cell |
8th April 2009, 11:18 AM | #916 |
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8th April 2009, 11:20 AM | #917 |
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Really. Well if you've read all of the facts please point out in Jones' paper where they describe the source, composition, maker and manufacturer part number of the paint they tested.
If you can't then you cannot claim that they have ruled out paint. Go back and read Jones' paper carefully and slowly and find the information that I need - what paint did they test - Dulux? I predict a one line answer and a dodge, handwave, etc. |
8th April 2009, 11:22 AM | #918 |
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8th April 2009, 11:23 AM | #919 |
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Oh. My. God. Look what the cat dragged in! Hey Swing, long time no see, well that's not strictly true, we noticed you taking potshots at us time after time over on the CIT board. How are fatty and Craig anyway? It's kind of funny that you suggest that we post over at 911 Blogger, though. They won't No Planer nitwits like the CIT boys post over there, now will they?
But I digress, Anyhow, good to have you back! While you're here, couple of quick comments. First, aren't you troubled by the fact that Jones refuses to disclose the independent test results he got in 2007? Second, tell you what, when Jones publishes something in an independently peer reviewed journal, not a piece of crap vanity rag like this one, we'll publish a rebuttal. Until then, keep searching for the flyover witnesses, No Planer. |
8th April 2009, 11:25 AM | #920 |
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Maybe Steven Jones should make an analysis along with a bunch of independent chemical engineers . Everything carefully filmed. Then they could synthesise a arger batch of exactly the same stuff and maintain a legal chain of custody. Then they could melt a large steel clumn in front of an audience of professionals using the mixture. That would settle it for once and for all. |
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