|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
6th April 2009, 05:57 PM | #521 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,128
|
What is your point? Are you saying that one of the two layers seen in the chip sample could have been deposited on the other by sputtering?
You do realise that the platelets in the red layer also contained (confirmed by EDS - see Fig 11a), aluminium and oxygen (as well as silicon) and therefore will contain Al203 and SiO2. Looking at the size shape and structure this matches Kaolin which will be in the form Al203.2Si02.2H20 (anhydrous Aluminium Silicate) You seem to be desperately googling terms and then jumping upon any paper without understanding how that paper relates to the paper we are discussing or anyone else's arguments. |
6th April 2009, 06:04 PM | #522 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,128
|
|
6th April 2009, 06:10 PM | #523 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 7,032
|
|
__________________
911 resource site by Mark Roberts http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home Gravy: Christopher7; You are a Basking Shark in a sea of ignorance. Galileo:The jury said I didn't have any mental defects or diseases, they declared me 100% sane. Has a jury ever declared you sane? Don’t get me lol’n off my chesterfield dude. |
|
6th April 2009, 06:12 PM | #524 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,207
|
I'm not convinced by the Jones, et. al. paper that they do, indeed, have an nanothermite. However, I'm not convinced by Mackey, either. I don't think Greening has come to a conclusion.
I really don't have the expertise to have an opinion that matters. But I expect that material scientists do have the expertise to evaluate the Jones, et. al. claims. I suspect that when they do, they will still consider them indeterminate, and require more proof. The nice thing about this particular issue is that I believe a conclusion can eventually be reached (one way or another) that is beyond doubt by domain experts ( = material scientists) . I certainly don't consider NIST's modeling to be in this category. Nor do I consider Jones' work on the microspheres in this category, as it is probably impossible to eliminate fly ash as a possible source. That's why, imo, 911 Truthers are fools if they just try to appeal to the usual suspects - media and government - with this paper, at this stage of the game. They should, instead, be sending it to individual material scientists (as in 100's and 1000's of them) to get them interested. If the material scientists who look at this carefully are mostly agreed that it's a demolition agent, then they might get some traction with those other two corrupt institutions previously mentioned. |
6th April 2009, 06:19 PM | #525 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,207
|
I should have been clearer. I was referring to only the red part of the "chip".
I see basically a bent, red square. A square is a shape with 4 corners, with 4 sides of equal length. (OK, maybe it's a rectangle, but close to square.) If you don't see a red shape, with 4 corners, and sides approximately the same length, then just say so. OTOH, if you do see this, (as I do), why do you not find it exceptional? Is it because you see such shapes all the time when stripping paint, or examining some paint chips that peeled off of a piece of metal, of their own accord? Another possibility (which I should have mentioned) is that you see a square in the picture, but rarely or never see one in real life, but simply consider this one to be an anomaly. |
6th April 2009, 06:26 PM | #526 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,128
|
Yes we damn well do. That's what i've been trying to tell you a) I'm a materials scientist and b) I can evaluate Jones's paper c) I've shown that the material that he has is NOT thermite it's a layer of MIO (which is widely used in anti-corrosion paint) with a layer of red paint more than likely to be kaolin, Fe2O3 rhomboidal crystals and some sort of Carbon based binder (eg: urethane or epoxy etc)
We aren't some sort of mono-bloc. If Jones wants to be taken seriously then he should submit his paper to a Materials Science Journal. I agree about a proper conclusion with regard to the paper. Whilst we can't rule out fly ash it may look like burning paint is the source. And Jones could put everyone out of their misery by simply sending a few of his paint chips to an independent materials laboratory and ask them to do a full analysis. Hell, for 40 bucks he can get an XRD done and get the results in less than a week. That will give him all the compounds present (not just elements) and their quantities. |
6th April 2009, 06:32 PM | #527 |
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,986
|
Quote:
|
6th April 2009, 06:39 PM | #528 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,207
|
This post was a copy from an email to Professor Jones, and post at 911blogger.com. I am basically prodding Professor Jones, and anybody who has more time and inclination (and hopefully expertise) than I do, to check out resources that might possibly relate to this issue, and thus to see if it's possible to support his claim of platelet structures that contain Al in elemental form, as well as Si. (Or cast doubt on it, as the case may be.)
I haven't even read the papers I quoted, and don't expect I'd understand most of them, if I did. Regarding your specific question, no I hadn't realized that, but I know you can't have Al exposed to air and not have it react. It needs an oxide protective layer at it's surface. Thus, if the platelets' Al content is, say, 99% Aluminum, I still expect there to be some Al oxide. I have no idea if a similar tendency exists for Si. I'm not a chemist. In the case of Si and SiO2, though, I don't think it matters that much. If the Al is not mostly in elemental form, the stuff is not thermite. If it is, I don't think it matters if the Si is bonded to Oxygen, or not. Why would it, in terms of a thermite chemical reaction? I know next to nothing about chemistry, having studied it long, long ago, so feel free to enlighten me about any mistaken notions I have. |
6th April 2009, 06:40 PM | #529 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 7,032
|
|
__________________
911 resource site by Mark Roberts http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home Gravy: Christopher7; You are a Basking Shark in a sea of ignorance. Galileo:The jury said I didn't have any mental defects or diseases, they declared me 100% sane. Has a jury ever declared you sane? Don’t get me lol’n off my chesterfield dude. |
|
6th April 2009, 06:53 PM | #530 |
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,986
|
|
6th April 2009, 07:00 PM | #531 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,207
|
I'm sort of a student of scientific controversies, and from what I've learned, it's not wise to automatically trust even a large group of scientists. That's sort of my nature, anyway. E.g., I was shocked to learn that many (most?) men don't like asking for directions. I typically ask multiple people, to make sure I don't take directions from a joker or somebody that just makes a mistake. I'm a guy...
Quote:
|
6th April 2009, 07:01 PM | #532 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
|
Well metamars, at least you have the courage and honesty to call it as you see it.
I wholeheartedly agree that EXPERTS in this area, material scientists (Sunstealer is one), and others could settle it. By all means, assemble the experts, because you know Jones et al will not. TAM |
6th April 2009, 07:11 PM | #533 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 25,817
|
Experts who are not engaged in 9/11 truth activism, please.
|
6th April 2009, 07:15 PM | #534 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 7,032
|
Ill have to do an archive.org search using the old urls. It may have been two years ago. He was waiting for the independent lab to get back to him. I seem to recall an exchange with greening. And there was a thread here about it that i think crazychainsaw participated in re: iron sphericals.
still looking. the thread i was thinking of was "thermite on a chip" http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=101863 this is interesting. from December 07 http://911blogger.com/node/13090
Originally Posted by jones
http://911blogger.com/node/13090?page=1
Originally Posted by Jones
Originally Posted by jones
|
__________________
911 resource site by Mark Roberts http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home Gravy: Christopher7; You are a Basking Shark in a sea of ignorance. Galileo:The jury said I didn't have any mental defects or diseases, they declared me 100% sane. Has a jury ever declared you sane? Don’t get me lol’n off my chesterfield dude. |
|
6th April 2009, 07:53 PM | #535 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Moss Vale, NSW, Australia
Posts: 7,617
|
What is the point or purpose of debating whether or not thermate/thermite residues were present?
There is no way that either version of thermxte was the cause of the molten aluminium (aka "Steel") which cascaded from a single point source at 80 or so storeys height. Plenty of claims that the molten material was steel; plenty of claims it was from thermxte; also some claims mostly innuendo that the molten stuff came from thermxte cutting of columns as part of a demolition. Zero explanation of about a dozen steps of logic. Nearly all of them fatal to the implicit "hypothesis by innuendo". And only one tentative hypothesis as to how it could have been done - mine - when I postulated a team of fireproof suited suicide heroes who put all the required provisions in place after the aircraft crash and before the first molten flow appeared. Brave souls all. Alternatively we could be thinking about thermate being used to melt the stuff in the rubble. Why? With simple alternative explanations. So the only valid reason for pursuing this debate seems to be general interest in an unexplained phenomenon......which is probably based on false claims..... I suppose it helps pass the time. |
6th April 2009, 08:09 PM | #536 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,201
|
have you ever demonstrated that CLAIM? could you cite me examples when this CLAIM has been tested and verified.
the fact is the red chips exhibited highly energetic reactions the question is can you SHOW how paint will exhibit the SAME behaviour under the same conditions. peace |
6th April 2009, 08:19 PM | #537 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,201
|
ITS TIME FOR DEBUNKERS TO GET EMPIRICAL
Assuming sunstealer is right and that he has identified what kind of "paint" the red chips actually are. DO EXPERIMENTS - test the paint to determine whether or not it exhibits highly energetic behaviour when ignited. [as do the red chip Jones et al tested] If it fails on the first attempt, try again, or try another brand of paint just like incy-wincy spider. Until debunkers are willing to get EMPIRICAL and DEMONSTRATE how paint when ignited will behave energetically their aguments are ultimately TOOTHLESS. PEACE |
6th April 2009, 08:26 PM | #538 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 7,032
|
Given the tiny thimble sized red "thermite on a chip" torch demonstration in jones video. One has to wonder why no one witnessed bright white explosive reaction on 9/11? did I mention this coating was under a layer of fireproofing?
|
__________________
911 resource site by Mark Roberts http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home Gravy: Christopher7; You are a Basking Shark in a sea of ignorance. Galileo:The jury said I didn't have any mental defects or diseases, they declared me 100% sane. Has a jury ever declared you sane? Don’t get me lol’n off my chesterfield dude. |
|
6th April 2009, 08:28 PM | #539 |
0.25 short of being half-witted
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Somewhere north of the South Pole
Posts: 12,282
|
|
__________________
"AND ZEPPELINS!!! We haven't even begun to talk about Zeppelins yet! Marauding inflatable Teutonic johnsons waggling their way across the sky! Indecent and flammable all at once." |
|
6th April 2009, 08:33 PM | #540 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,201
|
Mackey - the journal is rubbish
TAM - chain of custody is a nightmere 911files - show me the control spectra Sunstealer - its paint All the above adhere to the hypothesis that the red chips are "paint" yet none of the above have ever tested their hypothesis in order to demonstrate how paint will exhibit highly energetic behaviour when ignited. Is the empirical method to debunkers like garlic to a vampire? The following video link is some affiliates of NIST actually trying to prove their own claim, namely that molten aluminium mixed with organics will glow orange! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQdkyaO56OY peace |
6th April 2009, 08:34 PM | #541 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,918
|
Why do I get the feeling that the truthers are desperate for confirmation from JREF?
Why do I get the feeling that they want us to do the work for them? |
6th April 2009, 08:35 PM | #542 |
Scholar
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 56
|
|
6th April 2009, 08:38 PM | #543 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,201
|
you believe paint exhibits explosive properties when ignited. prove it.
the cores were inside the building. assuming nanothermite was used to take out the core this would have been kinda hard to see dont ya think? although that said, there are some reports of white flashes being seen. peace |
6th April 2009, 08:41 PM | #544 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,201
|
|
6th April 2009, 08:43 PM | #545 |
Self Assessed Dunning-Kruger Expert
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,178
|
|
6th April 2009, 08:44 PM | #546 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,201
|
|
6th April 2009, 08:45 PM | #547 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 7,032
|
You believe a substance the thickness of paint can take out core columns? good luck with your fantasy there. And Sorry. Its a little late in the evening to do torch work especially with samples Jones wont share with those who don't agree with conclusions he has formed over two years ago. And we aren't as experienced at faking demonstrations like Jones is. He already has a track record given his doctored photos.
|
__________________
911 resource site by Mark Roberts http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home Gravy: Christopher7; You are a Basking Shark in a sea of ignorance. Galileo:The jury said I didn't have any mental defects or diseases, they declared me 100% sane. Has a jury ever declared you sane? Don’t get me lol’n off my chesterfield dude. |
|
6th April 2009, 08:50 PM | #548 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 7,032
|
Burden of proof is on the truth movement
Theres no need to prove jones paper false. It is incomplete given the lack of control samples of the superdupernanonanothermite he alleges exists. All his evidence points to
****drum roll***** PAINT edit to add And did I mention this coating was under a layer of fireproofing?????? any comment on how it got there thesolehole? |
__________________
911 resource site by Mark Roberts http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home Gravy: Christopher7; You are a Basking Shark in a sea of ignorance. Galileo:The jury said I didn't have any mental defects or diseases, they declared me 100% sane. Has a jury ever declared you sane? Don’t get me lol’n off my chesterfield dude. |
|
6th April 2009, 08:53 PM | #549 |
このマスクによっ
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,866
|
As far as I'm concerned if these paint chips are supposed to represent unreacted thermite "painted" or layered on a column then I find it difficult to believe it would be in enough quantity over any given point on the column to melt completely through it. If the reaction runs out of steam too quickly it will not succeed
This speculation is extremely dubious considering that the core was the last section of the buildings to collapse. This claim is made even less convincing given that the collapse began in the same areas where the planes hit and the fires burned unrestrained. I'm afraid this speculation on your part is weak. |
__________________
Current Set:http://i.imgur.com/IoqiUdK.jpg |
|
6th April 2009, 09:37 PM | #550 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 7,032
|
|
__________________
911 resource site by Mark Roberts http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home Gravy: Christopher7; You are a Basking Shark in a sea of ignorance. Galileo:The jury said I didn't have any mental defects or diseases, they declared me 100% sane. Has a jury ever declared you sane? Don’t get me lol’n off my chesterfield dude. |
|
6th April 2009, 10:24 PM | #551 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,325
|
Dude, that's the thing: the Jones boys need to do a full-scale test of their Acme Super Duper Nanothermite Paint on structural steel to DEMONSTRATE that it in fact can do what they say it can.
Until then it's all just a lab show with little chips. That is not proof of anything. Get busy Mr. Jones! Come to think of it, did he ever get out of the lab stage with his fancy cold-fusion? Nope. Deja Vu all over again, init? |
6th April 2009, 10:31 PM | #552 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,885
|
Seriously. Hey twoofers, can you think of any reasons that your heroes have never even attempted to prove that their super-duper-nano-therm*te can do what they claim? Until then, their "theory" is nothing more than a totally unfounded fantasy. About as stupid as giant lasers from outer space doing it.
|
7th April 2009, 12:52 AM | #553 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,207
|
The test I'd like to see is as follows:
Construct 2 mini-buildings with, say 10 poles set in concrete. Take a motorcycle which can do 140 mph, attach a side carriage, load it up with canisters of kerosene fuel, and also attach a couple of superheated chunks of metal. (I don't know what the temperature of jet engines is, but the idea is to try and emulate that.) Crash it into your 10 pole building, and film it. Next, treat the 10 columns of the second 'building' with nano-thermite. Crash an identical vehicle into it, and film the results. Do you get a fireball with B, but not A? This test will be flawed because of the fact that 140 mph is much slower than the 911 WTC jets were going. I expect much less of an aerosolizing effect at this speed. This is the problem when you don't work for the NWO - budget constraints!! (I'm probably using the word aerosolizing incorrectly. My intent is basically to say that small droplets of fuel get formed during the first instances of impact.) |
7th April 2009, 03:27 AM | #554 |
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 45,220
|
Thanks very much. I'll keep your point in mind.
Good suggestion. A few days ago, someone in this subforum posted a link to an abstract (neither of those) about the contents of the WTC dust which contained paint, and now I can't find the post for the life of me. I thought it was Mr Mackey's post, but searching the forum and my history failed to find it. It was an abstract with the full article available in either html or pdf at the bottom of the page, and the 10 or so authors were mainly from New Jersey. I've been thinking they would be worth contacting to find out how they determined that the dust was paint, and also what they think of Jones et al's paper. Does this paper ring any bells with anyone? I'd love to hear more about this, you two. Another thought: Which layer of the chips does Jones think is supercalifragilisticthermite? The red, or the grey, or is it both? |
7th April 2009, 04:11 AM | #555 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
|
Feeble attempt to shift burden of proof. Jones has yet to prove that the red/grey chips are thermite. He has yet to prove they are WTC paint, due to his lack of control experiment.
TRUTHERS, GET YOUR FEARLESS LEADER STEVEN JONES TO TEST THE SAME PAINT THAT WAS USED IN THE WTC AND EITHER RULE IT IN OR OUT!!! TAM |
7th April 2009, 04:29 AM | #556 |
Thinker
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 157
|
NISTNCSTAR1-3C
appendix D p442 Figure D-4... Chips ? See also table D-1... p438 Iron oxyde ? |
7th April 2009, 04:54 AM | #557 |
Scholar
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 71
|
From page 434:
Quote:
ETA:As for the "energetic reaction" (page 435)
Quote:
So, there it is:the whole of Jones investigation explained. |
7th April 2009, 05:59 AM | #558 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,374
|
|
__________________
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. -- Harlan Ellison |
|
7th April 2009, 06:22 AM | #559 | |||
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 7,032
|
Then theres the matter of the scaling argument
|
|||
__________________
911 resource site by Mark Roberts http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home Gravy: Christopher7; You are a Basking Shark in a sea of ignorance. Galileo:The jury said I didn't have any mental defects or diseases, they declared me 100% sane. Has a jury ever declared you sane? Don’t get me lol’n off my chesterfield dude. |
||||
7th April 2009, 06:32 AM | #560 |
New Blood
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 8
|
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|