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7th April 2009, 11:40 AM | #641 |
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7th April 2009, 11:41 AM | #642 |
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Maybe I missed it, but I think I didn't read any explanation about the silicon. If the layer is nano-thermite... what is silicon doing there? It is not part of the reaction
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NIST did the same (NCSTAR 1-3C, appendix D), and guess what, they also had some release of heat at 400ºC. They say it's due to the release fo heat in a phase change.
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7th April 2009, 11:42 AM | #643 |
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7th April 2009, 11:42 AM | #644 |
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Did everyone see this video about Jones's latest revelation ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE_tuWKsBko |
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7th April 2009, 11:42 AM | #645 |
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"Is your claim that the level of penetration is only governed by distance and not the material that is being penetrated?" - DGM |
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7th April 2009, 11:44 AM | #646 |
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7th April 2009, 11:46 AM | #647 |
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Got nothing better to do than to spam the same video?
you posted that already here. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...91#post4592891 |
7th April 2009, 11:50 AM | #648 |
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7th April 2009, 11:52 AM | #649 |
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7th April 2009, 11:57 AM | #650 |
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7th April 2009, 11:59 AM | #651 |
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7th April 2009, 12:05 PM | #652 |
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"Is your claim that the level of penetration is only governed by distance and not the material that is being penetrated?" - DGM |
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7th April 2009, 12:07 PM | #653 |
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..Well I agree that Bill Smith is way off target of what happened so I agree with the thrust of your position Dave Rogers.
HOWEVER I don't think the results would be of any interest to SERIOUS debunkers??? Why? Because there is no sustainable case for any main columns being cut by thermxte so why even give the slightest bit of credibility to that aspect of the "truther" nonsense and charlatans like Jones. Structural analysis of the "collapse that actually happened" at WTC 1 & 2 did not involve cutting of columns by thermxte so there is no benefit in testing it and giving pseudo credibility to the conspiracy clowns. The only possible place where thermate could have been used in the "collapse that actually happened" was on the lower chords of the floor joists in the impact zone. From a structural perspective it could make sense as part of a demolition scenario however there are obvious non-structural reasons why that did not happen. (Unless you allow the hypothesis of fire suited suicide workers fitting it in the minutes after the plane crash. ) So we return to the point I have now made several times on this forum. The only logically possible reason to discus thermite/thermate in connection with WTC 1 or 2 is for interest ONLY. All the evidence supports that it was neither used nor needed to cause or assist the "collapse that actually happened". Those who suggest it could or was involved are discussing some other possible collapse. Which by definition is not the "COLLAPSE WHICH ACTUALLY HAPPENED". A hypothetical fantasy of their imagination. And hypothetical fantasies do not cause demolition OR collapses. So why give the "truthers" credibity by falling for their trap and debating their impossible hypothesis???? If the Bill Smiths agree that they are not proposing use of thermxte in demolition then by all means discuss the "evidence" for interest. But while ever "they" continue to explicitly OR by implication pursue thermxte as if it could be involved in demolition why debate it - the overwhelming weight of other considerations shows that the assumption of thermxte assited demolition is utter nonsense. Certainly the Bill Smith's could not give a coherent total explanation of how thermxte could be used to produce or assist the "collapse that actually happened". And remember that the burden of proof lies with them to show how, not with the opponents to prove the "global negative" of "could not". PS1. Apologies to Bill Smith for singling him out - I don't know who is who on this forum yet and he was most recent so I picked his posts as the example. PS2. I specifically stated WTC 1 & 2 because the bold assertions of no thermxte in the "collapse that happened" is easiest to support/demonstrate on those two - it is more complicated for WTC 7. |
7th April 2009, 12:09 PM | #654 |
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7th April 2009, 12:16 PM | #655 |
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Dr. Stevens Jones is the Next Galileo
Traces of explosives in 9/11 dust, scientists say By Elaine Jarvik April 6, 2009 Deseret News Tiny red and gray chips found in the dust from the collapse of the World Trade Center contain highly explosive materials -- proof, according to a former BYU professor, that 9/11 is still a sinister mystery. Physicist Steven E. Jones, who retired from Brigham Young University in 2006 after the school recoiled from the controversy surrounding his 9/11 theories, is one of nine authors on a paper published last week in the online, peer-reviewed Open Chemical Physics Journal. Also listed as authors are BYU physics professor Jeffrey Farrer and a professor of nanochemistry at the University of Copenhagen in Denmark. For several years, Jones has theorized that pre-positioned explosives, not fires from jet fuel, caused the rapid, symmetrical collapse of the two World Trade Center buildings, plus the collapse of a third building, WTC-7. The newest research, according to the journal authors, shows that dust from the collapsing towers contained a "nano-thermite" material that is highly explosive. Although the article draws no conclusions about the source and purpose of the explosives, Jones has previously supported a theory that the collapse of the WTC towers was part of a government conspiracy to ignore warnings about the 9/11 terrorists so that the attack would propel America to wage war against Afghanistan and Iraq. .... He likens himself to Galileo and Newton, who stood by their consciences. "I would like to think I could stand up for the truth," he says. .... READ THE REST - GALILEO WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG! http://www.deseretnews.com/article/0...295677,00.html |
7th April 2009, 12:17 PM | #656 |
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This is starting to sound like a derail effort. There is evidence FDR knew Pearl Harbor was coming, LBJ "faked" the Gulf of Tonkin, but again, apples and oranges. Churchill also allowed an attack on civilans to go ahead without warning in order to keep the Enigma secret. But again, apples and oranges and I don't see any evidence, including Dr. Jones little "pay to play" paper that indicates the government was involved in the WTC attack in any way what-so-ever.
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7th April 2009, 12:18 PM | #657 |
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He didn't retire, he was asked to leave.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_E._Jones Again, this should raise some red flags about his objectivity, the same goes for his co-authors, who also are 9/11 truth activists. |
7th April 2009, 12:29 PM | #658 |
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7th April 2009, 12:34 PM | #659 |
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7th April 2009, 12:35 PM | #660 |
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7th April 2009, 12:38 PM | #661 |
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7th April 2009, 12:39 PM | #662 |
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great post Boloboffin.
honestly i am fast becoming browned off defending Jones's paper. i cant believe he never even tested the actual paint that was used on the WTC core columns (indeed that was the only thing he was probably testing?). he should have isolated a WTC paint sample and then run it through the same trials as the red chips. if it turns out to be paint that is surely going to damage the truth movement. peace |
7th April 2009, 12:40 PM | #663 |
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I've crossed some parts out because the language is either odd [and added my own] or it's unsubstantiated.
--------- Correct. Occurs in paint chip. Correct. "intimate mixing" is a misnomer - no metallurgist would ever describe anything as "intimate mixing". Occurs in paint chip. Ok, but the elemental Aluminium concentrated looks dubious, their method vibrates the sample and I there is no optical or SEM photo detailing where the exact analysis was performed - I've still got to look into that further because there is no indication of the point at which they performed EDS analysis. "Pre-ignition material" is another misnomer. No idea about MEK dissolving paint but you'd have to get a range of paints to compare. Possibly occurs in a paint chip. Correct. But that does not qualify the material as "nano-thermite". Plenty of ordinary materials contain iron oxide powders with particle sizes of this order of magnitude. Pigments and Paint certainly do. Occurs in paint chip. Very hard to quantify elemental with EDS bearing in mind the sample, but essentially correct. Nothing odd about this. Occurs in paint chip. I don't see any proof of elemental Aluminium in SEM photos and corresponding EDS. Their separation method is odd and they don't show any of the elemental Aluminium even though they do and EDS. iron oxide in paint - yes. Elemental Aluminium - possible and would depend on the paint. What about the "gray layer"? Proves it's not thermite - Correct. Their additional data doesn't confirm. Don't know - only skim-read that part of the paper that contains data on the post DSC test analysis. Takes time to read and understand data. That's a subtle hint for some people btw. Don't know - haven't read the part of the paper that contains data on the post DSC test analysis. Takes time to read and understand data. That's a subtle hint for some people btw. Presence of Carbon in the "red layer" indicates the presence of Carbon. There is no way to determine how much Carbon is present nor what the compound it's present in is. Thermite nano or not is Aluminium and Iron Oxide powder. That's it. The paper clearly states.
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------------ Yes, sure. Added comments above under each question. It's possible that the paint has absorbed or reacted with other chemicals, but usually paints are made to not do this, because it degrades them. It might occur at higher than their specified operational temperatures. |
7th April 2009, 12:44 PM | #664 |
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hey sunstealer,
below is Jones's response to your position.
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a final point i would like to add is whether nano sized particles were being used in primer paint back in 1971 when the towers were constructed? peace |
7th April 2009, 12:59 PM | #665 |
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no need to be rude Dave. its a valid question. the red chips release a lot of energy for their mass. they also produce iron spehericles. can the primer paint on the WTC also do that? if so then the game is up for Jones.
higher energy density may be against thermite but not against super thermite. peace and please try to remain polite in future exchanges. |
7th April 2009, 01:01 PM | #666 |
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He's never heard of dissolution in Kaolin then and the fact that the rate of dissolution is it's affected by stirring. Alumina is only weakly bonded to Silica in Kaolins. Again he uses only a spot beam on his separated aluminium particles but doesn't give a SEM photo as to where they are.
I'm not going to conduct an argument via proxy with him over the internet. It is going to take a few weeks to look into the claims - it's hard work and takes hours, not a casual glance at the pretty pictures and the conclusions. He is more than welcome to join JREF and post here. There is nothing special about the word nano. It is beginning to annoy me just like the buzzword "titanium" is used in Golf Clubs and shaving razors. Oxide pigments have been used for thousands of years by human beings (cave paintings), their industrial processing is going to give greater consistency of product. Note how MIO has been used for 100 years including on the Eiffel Tower. That product is made of nano sized particles and is pre-1971. I see no reason why similar sized particles wouldn't be used in paints or primers. Edited to add. The paper is quite large with lots and lots of data across a number of areas. It would take some one who knows what they are on about roughly 2 hours to read and understand the paper in it's entirety let alone looking specifically at the data and claims. It also has some odd terminology which is hard to decipher as to the exact meaning. It would have been easier if it was broken down into the SEM analysis and a consequent discussion and then a DSC analysis and consequent discussion |
7th April 2009, 01:07 PM | #667 |
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Sorry for the previous OT.
Regarding the low ignition temp, is there any evidence that real therm*te can ignite at such temps? If not, wouldn't it immediately falsify this material as therm*te, as suggested? Is the fat lady singing yet? |
7th April 2009, 01:07 PM | #668 |
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7th April 2009, 01:08 PM | #669 |
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(apologise in advance for brief misdirection on thread topic)
it is a fact that thermite reactions produce molten iron. Now NIST claimed that the molten flow was "molten aluminium mixed with organics" this claim has been debunked - that is proven empirically to be false in a labratory. unless that is you can "produce a bright orange glow, as seen flowing from the south tower, from molten aluminium mixed with organics in daylight using temperatures no greater than expected from a hydrocarbon jet fuel fire.” as for the citation for the fireproofing upgrade http://www.911blogger.com/node/13272 peace |
7th April 2009, 01:18 PM | #670 |
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Look Ma! It glows!
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7th April 2009, 01:19 PM | #671 |
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7th April 2009, 01:19 PM | #672 |
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thewholesoul states-
"In kaolin and other substances which incorporate Al and Si, the Al and Si are bound chemically -- that is, they will NOT separate under the action of a solvent such as MEK. That is why these MEK tests are so significant! WE thought of the possibility of an alumino-silicate early on of course, but then we did the MEK tests and were observed a separation of Al from other elements with this solvent - and this test RULES OUT strictly the notion that the aluminum which migrated is bound in an aluminosilicate." that is exactly what i was wondering pages back!! elemental aluminum. why do u think jones didnt check for aluminum oxide when the reaction occured... |
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7th April 2009, 01:19 PM | #673 |
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7th April 2009, 01:26 PM | #674 |
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thewholesoul - I checked the link you gave, thanks.
Have you followed all the links? I can't find any meaningful answers, just more questions about it. It appears to be yet another 'what if?' that deadends immediately. It's not proof of anything that I can see. I haven't seen this much speculation since the housing bubble. |
7th April 2009, 01:27 PM | #675 |
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7th April 2009, 01:28 PM | #676 |
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I take it the 9/11 truth movement will reserve judgment on these findings until they can be independently verified. NOT!
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7th April 2009, 01:29 PM | #677 |
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7th April 2009, 01:31 PM | #678 |
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7th April 2009, 01:32 PM | #679 |
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Wow, that would take a huge amount of therm*te to accomplish pools of molten steel.
They must've painted it on real thick, at least a couple mm. You do realize that the two claims contradict one another don't you bill? And the answer to the Aluminum question is in the picture I supplied of glowing Al. Didn't you see it? |
7th April 2009, 01:34 PM | #680 |
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