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Tags 911 conspiracy theory , thermite , wtc1 , wtc2

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Old 7th April 2009, 03:22 PM   #721
leftysergeant
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Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
Excuse me for asking the obvious, but if Jones is one of the authors of this paper, how is it independent of him?

Isn't...that...a bit....contradictory? Warp speed Mr. Sulu!
And, on top of that, Farrer was just Jones' lab manager.
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Old 7th April 2009, 03:22 PM   #722
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
You changed what you said first then. You said Truthers start with a conclusion. Now you say they don't start with a conclusion, but are swayed by bad evidence.

You are basically full of it, you don't know what you are talking about.
They do start with a conclusion...911 was an inside job!
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Old 7th April 2009, 03:27 PM   #723
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Originally Posted by 911files View Post
They do start with a conclusion...911 was an inside job!
Yeah but. it's so obvious it couldn't possibly be considered a bias.
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Old 7th April 2009, 03:29 PM   #724
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
JREFers always start with the conclusion, then use warped pseudo-science and anecdotal coincidences to justify whatever they are spouting that particular day.
Twoofers start with utter shock and horror at what they saw, then get exposed to the nattering of an idiiot who thinks he has also proven that Jesus Christ visited Yucatan (on the basis of his total lack of understanding of European and Mayan iconography and the methods of crucifiction,) the lies of a French intle officer who was dishonorably discharged for treason, who also poses as a fire fighting expert, but misidentifies P-23 Oshkosh fire trucks as "tankers for medium sized fires, Nazi dirt bags like Chris Bollyn and a whole bunch of obvious lunatics like Judy Woo-woo, then come to the obviously flawed conclusion that an actual scientist like Shyam Sunder is feeding them BS.
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Old 7th April 2009, 03:29 PM   #725
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
You changed what you said first then. You said Truthers start with a conclusion. Now you say they don't start with a conclusion, but are swayed by bad evidence.

You are basically full of it, you don't know what you are talking about.
ditto!

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Old 7th April 2009, 03:36 PM   #726
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the issue that the energy release described happens far quicker than paint? And that the presence of iron spherules after ignition suggest extremely hot temps, characteristics that would be dangerous in commercial paint?
Wow, this thread moves quickly. If the paint had that chemical composition, then it would have those energy release characteristics.

Since steel is a great heat sink, the steel would probably have to approach 430 C for ignition to occur. In that case, the building is already in trouble. Also, even if it does ignite, the thickness of the layers is such that not a whole lot of heat can be transferred to the steel. As Mackey has noted, the energy density is less than paper.

That's my take on it anyway.
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Old 7th April 2009, 03:40 PM   #727
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Hi.
I found a picture of molten aluminium:
eecue.com/img/images_pic-original-25230-hot_aluminum.jpg (sorry, can't post links)

Also i skimmed one of the articles that they refer to, and they find that making the thermite "nano" lowers the ignition temperature to 630 degrees, but that is still 200 degrees higher than what Harrit et al claims to have found...
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Old 7th April 2009, 03:42 PM   #728
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http://www.eecue.com/img/images_pic-...t_aluminum.jpg

Welcome to the forum.

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Old 7th April 2009, 03:44 PM   #729
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
Starting with nothing, i.e., no conclusion is a good way to be objective.

JREFers always start with the conclusion, then use warped pseudo-science and anecdotal coincidences to justify whatever they are spouting that particular day.
If that is the case then please show me where I have gone wrong in my analysis. I am more than capable of admitting that I am wrong on every issue with regard to the OP and Jones' paper.

I never started with a conclusion, infact I was surprised by the OP and the fact that Jones has put out a paper. Upon reading it I was struck by some of the "chip" characteristics particularly under SEM analysis, which instantly reminded me of other materials I have seen. If they had looked like thermite I'd be backing Jones to the hilt but the samples don't.

When I also find out about the NIST reports specific experiments to determine at what temperature the paint starts to craze and find this - edit: with the help of members who've contributed to this thread



then even more alarm bells start ringing. You can see bright metallic debris still attached to the peeling paint which is far smaller than the darker, larger flakes which NIST describe as "black scale". This scale is also lifting from the steel's surface. Is it part of the steel that's been oxidised and is spalling or is it part of the paint or something else?

Come on truthers - comment on this comparison.

Last edited by Sunstealer; 7th April 2009 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 7th April 2009, 03:49 PM   #730
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Originally Posted by Fjolle View Post
Hi.
I found a picture of molten aluminium:
eecue.com/img/images_pic-original-25230-hot_aluminum.jpg (sorry, can't post links)

Also i skimmed one of the articles that they refer to, and they find that making the thermite "nano" lowers the ignition temperature to 630 degrees, but that is still 200 degrees higher than what Harrit et al claims to have found...
Just go to the address bar that starts with http' left-click on it once till the whole line goes blue. Then right-click on it and press 'copy'. Go to your post , right-click and press ''paste'. Job done.
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Old 7th April 2009, 03:51 PM   #731
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
Excuse me, please my natural language is Italian, with some latin and greek, and just a small amount of exposure to middle English.
I'm still waiting (not really expecting) a reply to the second part of my post you dodged before.

Why don't you expect your "truther" heroes' to support their "theories"?
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Old 7th April 2009, 03:53 PM   #732
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Just go to the address bar that starts with http' left-click on it once till the whole line goes blue. Then right-click on it and press 'copy'. Go to your post , right-click and press ''paste'. Job done.
Duh. It's because i have to have 15 posts here before the forum wants to parse them.
Do you have any comments on the picture?
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Old 7th April 2009, 03:54 PM   #733
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'A typical JREFers sits in their underwear of their mom's basement'

Holy *****! Where's the hidden camera!

btw that may be the most accurate statement by a truther today!

Last edited by alienentity; 7th April 2009 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:01 PM   #734
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Originally Posted by Fjolle View Post
Duh. It's because i have to have 15 posts here before the forum wants to parse them.
Do you have any comments on the picture?
It's not in the open daylight for one nd the container is red hot whch may be reflecting in the silver patina of the molten aluminium.
I thought yoou meant that you couldn't post a link...sorry.
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:05 PM   #735
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
It's not in the open daylight for one nd the container is red hot whch may be reflecting in the silver patina of the molten aluminium.
I thought yoou meant that you couldn't post a link...sorry.
Hmm. I'm not sure what you mean by open daylight, but it really seems to me that the picture is taken outside in daylight...

also eecue.com/images.php?images_id=25229&fullsize=1 gives another look where you can see that it is clearly the aluminium that is red and not a reflection from the container.
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:06 PM   #736
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Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
'A typical JREFers sits in their underwear of their mom's basement'

Holy *****! Where's the hidden camera!
My mom is dead. I have to sit in my underwear in my own bedroom
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:09 PM   #737
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Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
Do the world a favor. Take that viral and attach it to every post you can find related to Jones' paper.

Dude is SO busted.

Quote:
This scale is also lifting from the steel's surface. Is it part of the steel that's been oxidised and is spalling or is it part of the paint or something else?
Probably some sort of coating either applied to the steel at the mill or created in the milling process, or just blowing about the mill and into the painting area.
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:14 PM   #738
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Originally Posted by Fjolle View Post
Hmm. I'm not sure what you mean by open daylight, but it really seems to me that the picture is taken outside in daylight...

also eecue.com/images.php?images_id=25229&fullsize=1 gives another look where you can see that it is clearly the aluminium that is red and not a reflection from the container.
It's very similar to the first photo and notice that the red colour disappears entirely at the instant the stream hits the platter.
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:16 PM   #739
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
It's very similar to the first photo and notice that the red colour disappears entirely at the instant the stream hits the latter.
Uh. Yes? That is when the stream cools down and it becomes silvery...
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:20 PM   #740
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Originally Posted by Fjolle View Post
Uh. Yes? That is when the stream cools down and it becomes silvery...
It just seems a lttle abrupt to me.Instant transition from red to silver.
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:21 PM   #741
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Originally Posted by Fjolle View Post
Uh. Yes? That is when the stream cools down and it becomes silvery...

Welcome to the forums Fjolle.
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:24 PM   #742
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Let's head off some of the potshots that have been fired off in this thread already.

1) It's not a vanity press. Here's the peer review process:



2) Check the advisory board. It's not a bunch of kooks, but credentialed, international scientists.

3) The second author is Dr. Jeffrey Farrer, current BYU faculty. And although Jones has been smeared pretty good here, it's a solid list of scientists with him.

4) Read the paper. I'm going through it now and it's quite interesting and thoroughly sourced. It's certainly worthy of productive discussion.

Thank You for actually reading the paper. I was alittle upset when I saw people yacking about how its just paint chips...clear indication they didn't read it.
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:25 PM   #743
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
It just seems a lttle abrupt to me.Instant transition from red to silver.
Well.. You know. That is kinda what happens when you pour hot aluminium onto cold steel...

Edit: Thanks T.A.M. and Hokulele

Last edited by Fjolle; 7th April 2009 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:26 PM   #744
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Originally Posted by Fjolle View Post
Well.. You know. That is kinda what happens when you pour hot aluminium onto cold steel...
If you say so
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:28 PM   #745
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Originally Posted by JSSTyger View Post
Thank You for actually reading the paper. I was alittle upset when I saw people yacking about how its just paint chips...clear indication they didn't read it.
its paint. deal with it

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Old 7th April 2009, 04:30 PM   #746
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Originally Posted by JSSTyger View Post
Thank You for actually reading the paper. I was alittle upset when I saw people yacking about how its just paint chips...clear indication they didn't read it.
So if one reads the paper and still concludes that they're paint chips, what is your excuse going to be?

Are you saying that there's no such thing as a legitimate criticism of the paper?
Did God write it then?

And further, does this paper settle the issue definitively, and if so, how? Is it even necessary for the thermite paint hypothesis to be tested on structural steel or should the idea be accepted as fact first?
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:32 PM   #747
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Originally Posted by A W Smith View Post
The one on the left is obviously thermite, the four on the right are obviously paint.
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:34 PM   #748
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oh, and one more thing JSSTyger: Do you hold truthers to the same standard? In other words, for them to accept this paper, should they be required to read it first?

Or is being uncritical an acceptable part of the cult?
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:35 PM   #749
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Originally Posted by JSSTyger View Post
Thank You for actually reading the paper. I was alittle upset when I saw people yacking about how its just paint chips...clear indication they didn't read it.
Is there any information on the grey material ? Does it have nano-properties ?
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:37 PM   #750
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Is there any information on the grey material ? Does it have nano-proerties ?

Do you know what the word "nano" means? Really means?
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:38 PM   #751
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Originally Posted by Sparky View Post
Do you know what the word "nano" means? Really means?
Doesn't 'nano' mean 'magic'?
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:41 PM   #752
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Is there any information on the grey material ? Does it have nano-properties ?
Did you even look at the picture of the paint peeling off the steel?

It appears you didn't.

Does it not strike you as odd that Thermite Boy does not mention finding paint chips and identifying them as such in his dust samples?

The boy knows as much about paint as he does about crucifiction.
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:42 PM   #753
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nano definition - super duper thermite
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:46 PM   #754
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Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
Come on truthers - comment on this comparison.
I am neither a truther nor a scientist or engineer. But, the picture on the left looks like a slice of ham and the pictures on the right look like chunks of beef. What does it mean?
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:47 PM   #755
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Originally Posted by Sparky View Post
Do you know what the word "nano" means? Really means?
One billionth of a meter or 100,000 times thinner than a hair off the top of your head. Properties can change at this level. Less inside- more outside. More surface area. nd all that good stuff.
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:49 PM   #756
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What you need to know about "Peer-review"

Submitted by ProfJones on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 12:07pm.

Since the days of Sir Isaac Newton, Science has proceeded through the publication of peer-reviewed papers. Peer-review means a thorough reading, commentary and even challenge before publication by "peers", that is, other PhD's and professors. This paper was thoroughly peer-reviewed with several pages of tough comments that required of our team MONTHS of additional experiments and studies. It was the toughest peer-review I've ever had, including THREE papers for which I was first author in NATURE.

(Please note that Prof. Harrit is first author on this paper.) We sought an established journal that would allow us a LONG paper (this paper is 25 pages long) with MANY COLOR IMAGES AND GRAPHS. Such a scientific journal is not easy to find. Page charges are common for scientific journals these days, and are typically paid by the University of the first or second author (as is the case with this paper) or by an external grant.

A peer-reviewed journal is also called a "refereed" journal. Peer-reviewers are almost always anonymous for scientific publications like this -- that is standard in the scientific world. While authors commonly recommend potential peer-reviewers, editors choose the referees and usually pick at least one or two reviewers that the authors did NOT mention -- and that is almost certainly the case with this paper (based on commentary we received from the reviewers). In the end, all the reviewers -- who were selected by the editor(s) -- approved publication. Thus, the paper was subjected to peer review by the editor or editors, and it passed the peer-review process.

READ THE REST, DEBUNKERS, YOU HAVE BEEN OUTWITTED BY DR. JONES!

http://www.911blogger.com/node/19780

This is the science organization that published the paper. They are obviously legitimate, they publish papers by Nobel laureates:

http://www.bentham.org/index.htm
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:49 PM   #757
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Originally Posted by JSSTyger View Post
Thank You for actually reading the paper. I was alittle upset when I saw people yacking about how its just paint chips...clear indication they didn't read it.
I've skim read the paper (as you do in order to get a general gist). It's quite heavy with data. I've then read the pages 1-18. I've then analysed the data on pages 1-18 and looked closely at how that data is interpreted in the paper. I've then noticed due to my experience that there are some parts of the SEM photos that are of interest

(that means, "Oi! SEM driver [person operating it], look at that bit will you, zoom in a bit, what's that?" - and then you find it's quarter to 6 in the evening and you've spent the last 8 hrs in a darkened room without a lunch break!)

and that I think I recognise some of the platelet shapes. So I look at the corresponding EDS spectra and I get an idea of what they could be. I started from there.

Where do other people start from? How are they actually analysing the data in the paper? Are they just looking at the conclusions and accepting it? I would be genuinely interested to get some peoples reactions, for example to, Figure 4. Explain in your own words what you actually see. Doesn't matter how you do it but do your own analysis, what do you see?
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:49 PM   #758
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Originally Posted by terl View Post
I am neither a truther nor a scientist or engineer. But, the picture on the left looks like a slice of ham and the pictures on the right look like chunks of beef. What does it mean?
It means that Jones' thermite chips are indistinguishable from paint chips, right down to the inclusion of bits of iron imbedded in the chips. The spectral analysis shows exactlythe same components that would be present in paint contaminated with calcium sulphate reside (from pulverised drywall.)
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:54 PM   #759
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You know who we are forgetting here? Karl Schwarz, one of the world's leading experts on nanotechnology.

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com...l-schwarz.html

Surely Karl would know.
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Old 7th April 2009, 04:54 PM   #760
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
A peer-reviewed journal is also called a "refereed" journal. Peer-reviewers are almost always anonymous for scientific publications like this -- that is standard in the scientific world. While authors commonly recommend potential peer-reviewers, editors choose the referees and usually pick at least one or two reviewers that the authors did NOT mention -- and that is almost certainly the case with this paper
Name them or stop blathering about their qualifications.

Quote:
This is the science organization that published the paper. They are obviously legitimate, they publish papers by Nobel laureates:

http://www.bentham.org/index.htm
So has Playboy. Do you have a point?
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