ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags JFK assassination , Kennedy conspiracies

Reply
Old Yesterday, 09:55 AM   #721
MicahJava
Graduate Poster
 
MicahJava's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,566
Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Oh look, here's Fincks ARRB deposition and starting on page 19 he talks about the entry wound:

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.h...Id=19&tab=page

And if you read the whole thing, which you won't, he says the scalp had been cut and peeled back by the time he arrived. Plus, this guy doesn't remember a lot of things by 1996.

And?... We've been over what Finck told the ARRB.

By the way, another understated point is that the statements of Humes & Boswell and Finck to the HSCA indicate that they had to make a special incision low in the back of the head to expose the entry wound in the skull corresponding to the wound in the scalp, after the initial incision had already been made to reflect the scalp and remove the brain. If the entry wound was on the upper cowlick part of the head, just the regular first reflection of the scalp would be enough to see the corresponding wound in the skull bone.

Last edited by MicahJava; Yesterday at 09:56 AM.
MicahJava is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 09:59 AM   #722
MicahJava
Graduate Poster
 
MicahJava's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,566
Originally Posted by bknight View Post
My question to MicahJava is still what difference does a couple of inches difference in the entry wound location make? MicahJava treats the difference as if this difference necessarily makes a conspiracy. Both the WC and HSCA both reported that a SINGLE bullet wound entry at the back of the head caused the damage. No "second" bullet wound was noted.
Where is the conspiracy?
It's a difference of four to five inches.

The difference indicates more than one gunshot wound to the head. A bullet entering the original EOP location and exiting the top of the head almost certainly would've caused severe damage to the cerebellum, which is not seen on the official brain photographs, and it would also be very difficult to explain the pattern of fragments on the X-rays, not to mention the strange trajectory.
MicahJava is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 10:03 AM   #723
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
 
RoboTimbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Rachel, KS
Posts: 27,598
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
It's a difference of four to five inches.

The difference indicates more than one gunshot wound to the head. A bullet entering the original EOP location and exiting the top of the head almost certainly would've caused severe damage to the cerebellum, which is not seen on the official brain photographs, and it would also be very difficult to explain the pattern of fragments on the X-rays, not to mention the strange trajectory.
Are you a trunk monkeyist?
RoboTimbo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 12:00 PM   #724
bknight
Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 132
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
It's a difference of four to five inches.

The difference indicates more than one gunshot wound to the head. A bullet entering the original EOP location and exiting the top of the head almost certainly would've caused severe damage to the cerebellum, which is not seen on the official brain photographs, and it would also be very difficult to explain the pattern of fragments on the X-rays, not to mention the strange trajectory.
Total speculation with no facts to back it up.
bknight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 12:36 PM   #725
OKBob
Scholar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 107
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
The difference indicates more than one gunshot wound to the head.
And there you have your answer, bknight. Okay, MJ, you've stated your position. But you still have all your work before you. Now that you've put two entrance wounds in JFK's skull, it's time to forget about brain removal and the rest of your current spiel. Let's say, arguendo, that we grant you your two entrance wounds in the head. Now, please reconcile the rest of the evidence--medical, ballistic, and so forth--with this two-wound scenario. And try to do so without positing altered evidence, testimonial perjury, or some other official chicanery, unless you can actually prove such things. It's in your court.

Last edited by OKBob; Yesterday at 12:38 PM.
OKBob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 01:11 PM   #726
MicahJava
Graduate Poster
 
MicahJava's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,566
Originally Posted by OKBob View Post
And there you have your answer, bknight. Okay, MJ, you've stated your position. But you still have all your work before you. Now that you've put two entrance wounds in JFK's skull, it's time to forget about brain removal and the rest of your current spiel. Let's say, arguendo, that we grant you your two entrance wounds in the head. Now, please reconcile the rest of the evidence--medical, ballistic, and so forth--with this two-wound scenario. And try to do so without positing altered evidence, testimonial perjury, or some other official chicanery, unless you can actually prove such things. It's in your court.
A tangential wound is one large missile wound of both entrance and exit.
MicahJava is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 02:25 PM   #727
turingtest
Mistral, mistral wind...
 
turingtest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,616
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
A tangential wound is one large missile wound of both entrance and exit.
Somehow, I don't think that when OKBob said "all your work before you," tossing off this easy one-liner assertion in place of evidence for it is what he had in mind.
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV;
I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems
Deep Purple- "The Aviator"

Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King
turingtest is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 03:15 PM   #728
bknight
Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 132
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
A tangential wound is one large missile wound of both entrance and exit.
During the Zapruder film no images of a second head wound exists, nor is there any indication in the autopsy report of a second wound. Sorry that dog won't hunt.
bknight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 04:21 PM   #729
MicahJava
Graduate Poster
 
MicahJava's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,566
Originally Posted by bknight View Post
During the Zapruder film no images of a second head wound exists, nor is there any indication in the autopsy report of a second wound. Sorry that dog won't hunt.
Gunshots don't always work like in the movies.
MicahJava is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 04:22 PM   #730
MicahJava
Graduate Poster
 
MicahJava's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,566
Angry

Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Total speculation with no facts to back it up.
Okay, then why don't you stand by the original EOP location for the small head wound and wait to see where the forensic evidence leads from there.

Edit: why do I have a red frowny face above my comment? I didn't put it there and I can't remove it.

Last edited by MicahJava; Yesterday at 04:24 PM.
MicahJava is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 04:32 PM   #731
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
 
RoboTimbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Rachel, KS
Posts: 27,598
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Okay, then why don't you stand by the original EOP location for the small head wound and wait to see where the forensic evidence leads from there.

Edit: why do I have a red frowny face above my comment? I didn't put it there and I can't remove it.
Tell me more about this tangential wound.
RoboTimbo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 04:38 PM   #732
OKBob
Scholar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 107
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
A tangential wound is one large missile wound of both entrance and exit.
So now you're positing one bullet that caused all the wounds you've been discussing? Please stop dodging. You seem to pride yourself on being a heroic private detective working for the memory of JFK. Do you think the cat-and-mouse game you're playing here is worthy of that high calling?
OKBob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 06:43 PM   #733
HSienzant
Master Poster
 
HSienzant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 2,722
Originally Posted by bknight View Post
During the Zapruder film no images of a second head wound exists, nor is there any indication in the autopsy report of a second wound. Sorry that dog won't hunt.

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Gunshots don't always work like in the movies.
Straw man. No one suggested they do. Now try responding to the actual points made for a change.

Hank
__________________
"Looks like we're really in nut country now, Toto."

Last edited by HSienzant; Yesterday at 06:45 PM.
HSienzant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 06:49 PM   #734
BStrong
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 9,568
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Gunshots don't always work like in the movies.

Considering the sum of your knowledge of GSW's is CT's and popular fiction, that's pretty funny.

How much bandwidth has been wasted by you trying to ram the square peg of some other guy's CT into the round hole of reality?
__________________
"On the issue of immigration, our policy should not be informed by our collective outrage about one man's conduct." - California Attorney General Kamala Harris.

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Col. Jeff Cooper, U.S.M.C.
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 06:58 PM   #735
HSienzant
Master Poster
 
HSienzant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 2,722
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
It's a difference of four to five inches.

The difference indicates more than one gunshot wound to the head.
According to which autopsy doctor who had JFK's body in front of them to examine or which qualified forensic pathologist who reviewed the extant autopsy materials?

What's that? This is solely your own NON-EXPERT opinion? You have no valid qualifications worthy of mention? And no reason to be telling us what you think occurred?



Quote:
A bullet entering the original EOP location and exiting the top of the head almost certainly would've caused severe damage to the cerebellum, which is not seen on the official brain photographs
So you are admitting the evidence indicates it did NOT happen and you are just wasting time until your train arrives?



Quote:
and it would also be very difficult to explain the pattern of fragments on the X-rays, not to mention the strange trajectory.
So you're providing even more evidence it did NOT happen and you're just treating us to various musings of MicahJava on a warm summer day?

What do you see in that cloud?

Hank
__________________
"Looks like we're really in nut country now, Toto."

Last edited by HSienzant; Yesterday at 07:08 PM.
HSienzant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 07:06 PM   #736
HSienzant
Master Poster
 
HSienzant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 2,722
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
And?... We've been over what Finck told the ARRB.
And we learned testimony decades after the fact is unreliable, often self-contradictory, and doesn't support your preferred solution in the slightest.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
By the way, another understated point is that the statements of Humes & Boswell and Finck to the HSCA indicate that they had to make a special incision low in the back of the head to expose the entry wound in the skull corresponding to the wound in the scalp, after the initial incision had already been made to reflect the scalp and remove the brain. If the entry wound was on the upper cowlick part of the head, just the regular first reflection of the scalp would be enough to see the corresponding wound in the skull bone.
No free fringe reset for you. We've covered your arguments extensively.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=689

Hank
__________________
"Looks like we're really in nut country now, Toto."

Last edited by HSienzant; Yesterday at 07:45 PM.
HSienzant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 07:26 PM   #737
bknight
Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 132
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Gunshots don't always work like in the movies.
However this movie was of a real live event. The President clutching at a throat wound and then the top of his head being blown off, leaving real traces, not film artifacts that match the ammunition used by LHO for all the wounds. There is no mystery here and what I believe is irrelevant what has been proved by autopsy reports and several reviews. One shooter, three shots, two hits.
bknight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 07:31 PM   #738
HSienzant
Master Poster
 
HSienzant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 2,722
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
That's not what I asked and you know it.

And, importantly, the area of the skull around the large defect was so fractured that pieces would naturally break off. Very little sawing of the skull was necessary. So since the X-rays show the cowlick fracture right beside the large defect, the cowlick area of the skull would have been among the pieces to naturally break off. Since Dr. Finck arrived to the autopsy after the skull cavity was enlarged and the brain was removed yet could still examine the entry wound in the intact rest of the skull, this indicates that the entry wound was not on the upper cowlick area as theorized by the HSCA.
The bolded sentence is not supported by any evidence and is in fact contradicted by the testimony of the actual autopsy doctors and the autopsy report and the autopsy x-rays you yourself provided here. You won't be able to provide anything that says the entry wound portion of the skull broke off from the rest of the skull and I previously quoted extensively from the autopsy doctors to establish that argument was wrong. The conclusion you reach in the final sentence above is therefore erroneous because you are relying on 'facts' not in evidence.

No free fringe reset for you.

Hank
__________________
"Looks like we're really in nut country now, Toto."

Last edited by HSienzant; Yesterday at 07:40 PM.
HSienzant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 10:07 PM   #739
Axxman300
Graduate Poster
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 1,669
I performed an experiment with MJ and it went as expected.

I linked to a site that is friendly to CTists, and suggested he read the entire deposition beyond the pages I mentioned to get a better picture of the autopsy from both men.

He didn't read a word.

He refers to a handful of photographs and TWO head x-rays as if they are definitive enough to base a medical assessment. They are not, they are the JFK equivalent to Patterson's Bigfoot film, wherein you can see something, but there is not enough information.

The two men who had hands on JFK's body, and dissected the skull agree on the entry point and what they saw. Only a fool argues against them.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 10:13 PM   #740
Axxman300
Graduate Poster
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 1,669
I'm going to join the chorus calling MJ out:

What's your theory on who killed JFK?

If not Oswald then who?

Remember, you need to explain why they used his rifle, how they knew he worked at the TSBD, why he was the only employee to flee the crime scene, and why - if he was innocent - did he shoot Tippet?

If it wasn't his rifle, then exactly what other caliber can produce an equal amount of damage?

You also have to list suspects with enough influence to sway the Secret Service, FBI, Earl Warren, RFK, and LBJ.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 10:22 PM   #741
Axxman300
Graduate Poster
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 1,669
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Gunshots don't always work like in the movies.
Begs the question: How many GSWs have you seen either on the internet, and in person?

I've never seen someone shot, but I have seen some head wounds working construction. There is no mistaking a head injury. The blood is a brighter red due to the oxygen, there is more in the head than in the arms of legs, and the blood will flow from the smallest nick (someday when you grow up and shave you will learn about how much your head wants to bleed).

That fictitious .22 subsonic round would strike JFK's head like a hammer.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 11:18 PM   #742
Tomtomkent
Philosopher
 
Tomtomkent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 7,899
MJ noticed gunshot wounds don't always work like in the movies?

Neither do gunshots.

Maybe this means he is on his way to seeing all the problems with his silenced rifle, of another calibre, causing a second wound they, erm, wouldn't work that way because it wasn't a movie...
__________________
@tomhodden

Never look up an E-book because this signature line told you. Especially not Dead Lament (ASIN: B00JEN1MWY). Or A Little Trouble (ASIN: B00GQFZZQW).
Tomtomkent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:46 AM   #743
Cosmic Yak
Graduate Poster
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 1,532
Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I'm going to join the chorus calling MJ out:

What's your theory on who killed JFK?

If not Oswald then who?

Remember, you need to explain why they used his rifle, how they knew he worked at the TSBD, why he was the only employee to flee the crime scene, and why - if he was innocent - did he shoot Tippet?

If it wasn't his rifle, then exactly what other caliber can produce an equal amount of damage?

You also have to list suspects with enough influence to sway the Secret Service, FBI, Earl Warren, RFK, and LBJ.
Me too.
MJ, this is all very confusing. You claim LHO couldn't have made the shot because JFK would have looked like an ant. You then need to explain how the bullets from his gun made it into JFK's body, plus how all the other evidence tying LHO to the gun was fabricated. Then you need to state how another shooter was able to make the apparently impossible shot, without being seen by anyone there, make their escape unnoticed and then remove their bullets from the body. You then have to explain how the position of the wounds in JFK's skull provide significant evidence for any of this. Some explanation of the motives for all this would also be nice.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:55 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.