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Tags police issues , police misconduct charges

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Old 15th December 2018, 04:21 AM   #601
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Most "foreigners" who want to leave their countries want to come to the USA. If you can convince them not to I'm absolutely fine with that.
And you will have data to support that?
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Old 15th December 2018, 07:12 AM   #602
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Some facts missing from this thread:

There are 50 states.

Each state has it's own, independent standards for law enforcement officers. Some states have minimum, state-wide standards for training, and others do not.

Law enforcement is divided into sub-entities: State Police, City Police, County/Parish Sheriff's Departments, and a few states have constables.(This does not count the many Federal agencies)

Every police department has its own unique internal culture.

Every police department is subject to an applied budget.

Cops are expensive.

Under U.S. and State liability laws it is simply cheaper to kill a suspect than to wound that suspect.

Police officers have a powerful union with sharp lawyers.

There are between 750,000 and 850,000 sworn law enforcement officers in the U.S.

In 2017 police shot and killed 1,000 people in a country with a population of 325.7 million. (39,000 civilians shot and killed each other in the same time frame) (46 law enforcement officers were killed in the line of duty in 2017).


******

Where I live there are 9 different police departments within a 25 square mile zone, and there is also the California Highway Patrol. Some departments are staffed by great officers, and others have a reputation for being jerks. In California we have the Police Officer Standards & Training program wherein all officers must receive the same minimum training. The theory is that a cop in Fresno should perform at the same level as cops in Sacramento, and San Diego. For most part, POST has worked. (San Francisco, Los Angeles, and the CHP have their own academies).

Only two of these local police departments have had officer-involved shootings in the past decade, and all were justified.
Hm. The SAME union? Then their "fractured administration" and "unique internal cultures" can't be all that fractured or unique, can they? Seems to me I only ever hear of it when it's being used as an excuse.
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Old 15th December 2018, 07:20 AM   #603
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Hm. The SAME union? Then their "fractured administration" and "unique internal cultures" can't be all that fractured or unique, can they? Seems to me I only ever hear of it when it's being used as an excuse.
Despite being the most unionized profession in America, only 34.5% of people in the "Protective Services Occupations" belong to a union.

On a national level the, oddly named, International Union of Police Associations is the largest police union, claiming over 100,000 members out of the 750,000-850,000 uniform law enforcement officers in the US. I'm assuming state and local unions make up the rest and unions are certainly more and less popular in certain areas. For instance Patrolmen's Benevolent Association of the City of New York represents 24,000 of the city's 36,000 officers.
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Old 15th December 2018, 05:20 PM   #604
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
And you will have data to support that?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...istration.html
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Old 16th December 2018, 03:40 AM   #605
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
22% is not 'most' It's only 1 in 5.

Posting something that directly contradicts the claim is not evidence to support it.
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Old 16th December 2018, 03:59 AM   #606
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So 21% is 'most'

Ninja'd, I blame my slow stubby fingers.
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Old 16th December 2018, 06:19 AM   #607
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Most "foreigners" who want to leave their countries want to come to the USA. If you can convince them not to I'm absolutely fine with that.
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
And you will have data to support that?

100% of "foreigners" who want to leave their countries to come to the USA are "foreigners" who want to leave their countries to come to the USA.

How can anyone argue with numbers like that?
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Old 16th December 2018, 01:59 PM   #608
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Game over Nessie. You can stop with this charade of yours.

YOUR chosen topic of discussion was "the behavior of US police officers." YOU are the one who used infographics to compare US police shootings to different countries'. YOU are the one who compared US police to police in other countries no fewer than 10 times.

Anyone can go back and see you did in fact use an infographic to compare US police shooting to those of different countries.



Then, when someone compares US to Brazil, anyone can see that you are saying this:




You then try to dig yourself out of this hole by saying this:
Anyone can go back and see that I never said this. This happened only in your own mind.

I know you invested a lot of time playing Moral Orel but you really should abandon it now that you've been exposed as just another person feigning outrage over the Internet. You've been checkmated and you have no one to blame but yourself.
You have just had a huge delivery of straw, for some man you constructing.

Quote:
Strange non-sequitor
Can you explain why?
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Old 16th December 2018, 03:26 PM   #609
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Getting the substance free last word isn't going to dig you out of this massive hole.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Can you explain why?
Police in the US claim they shot a suspect in self defense because.........."the gun is held in high esteem." No explanation needed.
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Old 16th December 2018, 03:28 PM   #610
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
22% is not 'most' It's only 1 in 5.

Posting something that directly contradicts the claim is not evidence to support it.
most, most popular. Whatever.
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Old 16th December 2018, 09:09 PM   #611
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Hm. The SAME union? Then their "fractured administration" and "unique internal cultures" can't be all that fractured or unique, can they? Seems to me I only ever hear of it when it's being used as an excuse.
I misspoke, not the same union. Just unions:

https://www.thebalancecareers.com/wh...oin-one-974885

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...street/383258/

And as far as internal cultures go, it can be like night and day. Much of it has to do with leadership; how command supports and backs their patrol officers, or if they throw them under the bus at the first sign of trouble.

Plus you get what you pay for.

The San Francisco PD and the California Highway Patrol don't have a lot questionable conduct problems, and a big part of the reason is that an SFPD officer starts at around $83,000 a year, and a CHP starts at $74,700 (both after probationary periods). Both SFPD and CHP officers can make around $100,000 per year with overtime, and there is always overtime. The money alone is a great reason to keep it by the book, plus both departments have competitive cultures that drive most of their officers to excel.

Contrast those salaries with the Philadelphia PD ($51 to $64 thousand), Chicago PD ($57,794 to $62,964), and Cleveland PD ($45,904 to $58,620). Look up citizen complaints against the police in these cities some time.

I'm not arguing that law enforcement can't do a better job, I'm just pointing out that cites with bad cops are run by bad politicians.
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Old 16th December 2018, 11:30 PM   #612
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Most "foreigners" who want to leave their countries want to come to the USA. If you can convince them not to I'm absolutely fine with that.
Is that true? I'd be interested in seeing stats on that.

ETA Just saw Baylor's link and subsequent responses. That was funny.
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Old 16th December 2018, 11:32 PM   #613
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Before I looked it up today, I knew the vague substance of the ruling.

The events that brought about such a cowardly, wussy, wimpy and, quite frankly, unAmerican verdict actually made me feel a little sick.
I had never heard of it but I read the wiki article you linked to. I'm feeling more than a little sick as well.
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Old 17th December 2018, 03:23 AM   #614
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Getting the substance free last word isn't going to dig you out of this massive hole.


Police in the US claim they shot a suspect in self defense because.........."the gun is held in high esteem." No explanation needed.
That is not the argument I made.

That the gun is held in high esteem in the USA, enables the US Police to get away with claims of self defence that would not be accepted in other countries.
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Old 17th December 2018, 06:01 AM   #615
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Some facts missing from this thread:

There are 50 states.

Each state has it's own, independent standards for law enforcement officers. Some states have minimum, state-wide standards for training, and others do not.

Law enforcement is divided into sub-entities: State Police, City Police, County/Parish Sheriff's Departments, and a few states have constables.(This does not count the many Federal agencies)

Every police department has its own unique internal culture.

Every police department is subject to an applied budget.

Cops are expensive.

Under U.S. and State liability laws it is simply cheaper to kill a suspect than to wound that suspect.

Police officers have a powerful union with sharp lawyers.

There are between 750,000 and 850,000 sworn law enforcement officers in the U.S.

In 2017 police shot and killed 1,000 people in a country with a population of 325.7 million. (39,000 civilians shot and killed each other in the same time frame) (46 law enforcement officers were killed in the line of duty in 2017).


******

Where I live there are 9 different police departments within a 25 square mile zone, and there is also the California Highway Patrol. Some departments are staffed by great officers, and others have a reputation for being jerks. In California we have the Police Officer Standards & Training program wherein all officers must receive the same minimum training. The theory is that a cop in Fresno should perform at the same level as cops in Sacramento, and San Diego. For most part, POST has worked. (San Francisco, Los Angeles, and the CHP have their own academies).

Only two of these local police departments have had officer-involved shootings in the past decade, and all were justified.
Of course justified shootings have included having a concealed carry permit while black and not playing Simon says right and having to pull up your pants. So saying they were all found to be justified is a bit of a low bar really.
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Old 17th December 2018, 08:36 AM   #616
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
22% is not 'most' It's only 1 in 5.

Posting something that directly contradicts the claim is not evidence to support it.
It is not the majority but it is more than any other country which means "most" not in appropriate.
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Old 17th December 2018, 08:41 AM   #617
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I misspoke, not the same union. Just unions:

https://www.thebalancecareers.com/wh...oin-one-974885

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...street/383258/

And as far as internal cultures go, it can be like night and day. Much of it has to do with leadership; how command supports and backs their patrol officers, or if they throw them under the bus at the first sign of trouble.

Plus you get what you pay for.

The San Francisco PD and the California Highway Patrol don't have a lot questionable conduct problems, and a big part of the reason is that an SFPD officer starts at around $83,000 a year, and a CHP starts at $74,700 (both after probationary periods). Both SFPD and CHP officers can make around $100,000 per year with overtime, and there is always overtime. The money alone is a great reason to keep it by the book, plus both departments have competitive cultures that drive most of their officers to excel.

Contrast those salaries with the Philadelphia PD ($51 to $64 thousand), Chicago PD ($57,794 to $62,964), and Cleveland PD ($45,904 to $58,620). Look up citizen complaints against the police in these cities some time.

I'm not arguing that law enforcement can't do a better job, I'm just pointing out that cites with bad cops are run by bad politicians.
You need to adjust those numbers for the cost of living. 100k in SF is not much, probably relatively less than 50K in philly actually. The CHP can do alright on that in some parts of the state though.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ies-in-the-us/

Median income in SF, 100k+; Philly, 40k-. So, actually cops pay is fairly similar, actually a bit less in SF.
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Old 17th December 2018, 08:44 AM   #618
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
You need to adjust those numbers for the cost of living. 100k in SF is not much, probably relatively less than 50K in philly actually. The CHP can do alright on that in some parts of the state though.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ies-in-the-us/

Median income in SF, 100k+; Philly, 40k-. So, actually cops pay is fairly similar, actually a bit less in SF.
You don't have to live in SF, to work in SF. In fact about 160,000 people do just that.

ETA: and holy crap Albuquerque PD officer are doing well. They make $29 an hour after 1 year in the force, in a town where you can get a house for about $120/sq foot. The paper had an article about a patrol officer (not even a sergeant) who made over $200,000 in a year with OT, bonus and merit pay.

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Old 17th December 2018, 09:27 AM   #619
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Plus you get what you pay for.

The San Francisco PD and the California Highway Patrol don't have a lot questionable conduct problems, and a big part of the reason is that an SFPD officer starts at around $83,000 a year, and a CHP starts at $74,700 (both after probationary periods). Both SFPD and CHP officers can make around $100,000 per year with overtime, and there is always overtime. The money alone is a great reason to keep it by the book, plus both departments have competitive cultures that drive most of their officers to excel.

Contrast those salaries with the Philadelphia PD ($51 to $64 thousand), Chicago PD ($57,794 to $62,964), and Cleveland PD ($45,904 to $58,620). Look up citizen complaints against the police in these cities some time.

As a counter-example, I submit the Seattle PD. One of the highest paid in the nation, with base salary starting for rookies at $77,000, and veterans with five years on the job making $90,000. On top of that, they have one of the best benefits packages of not only any PD, but any industry, and that's not including the overtime pay most officers get plenty of opportunity to accrue (eg. any time there is a major event requiring crowd control or traffic re-direction, even coordinators are required to hire off-duty police officers to assist).

In 2011, the Seattle PD was cited by the US Department of Justice as the most violent and corrupt in the nation. Subsequent attempts at reform have been effectively quashed, suppressed, or minimized by the local police union. No substantial improvements have been made since then, and multiple police chiefs have been in and out of the office since then.

Obviously, there are much more important and influential factors at play than monetary compensation.

Quote:
I'm not arguing that law enforcement can't do a better job, I'm just pointing out that cites with bad cops are run by bad politicians.

With the increasing strength of the police unions, there's often not a lot that politicians can do to rein in bad officers or reform bad departments.
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Old 17th December 2018, 10:06 AM   #620
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Wrong thread oops.
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Old 17th December 2018, 01:20 PM   #621
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
You don't have to live in SF, to work in SF. In fact about 160,000 people do just that.

ETA: and holy crap Albuquerque PD officer are doing well. They make $29 an hour after 1 year in the force, in a town where you can get a house for about $120/sq foot. The paper had an article about a patrol officer (not even a sergeant) who made over $200,000 in a year with OT, bonus and merit pay.
In my area there is a city that is three miles long and a mile wide, and while there are a few homes there the place is a combination of light industry and big-box retail. The police department is small, but the officers average $120,000 per year. They're not the best cops either, and two years ago they gun down a couple who had been on a local crime spree in a parking lot on a busy shopping day. The couple had it coming, but they should have made the arrest attempt in a safer location.
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Old 17th December 2018, 07:23 PM   #622
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
That is not the argument I made.

That the gun is held in high esteem in the USA, enables the US Police to get away with claims of self defence that would not be accepted in other countries.
And when you were shown this was complete ************, you said this:
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The topic is the US Police.
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The discussion here was the one in the USA.
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
This thread is about the US police.
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Old 18th December 2018, 02:34 AM   #623
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
And when you were shown this was complete ************,
I claim it is rubbish, that does not therefore it is rubbish.

Quote:
you said this:
Which was regarding your tu quo que as you pointed out the Brazilian police also kill at a high rate.
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Old 18th December 2018, 02:36 AM   #624
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
You don't have to live in SF, to work in SF. In fact about 160,000 people do just that.

ETA: and holy crap Albuquerque PD officer are doing well. They make $29 an hour after 1 year in the force, in a town where you can get a house for about $120/sq foot. The paper had an article about a patrol officer (not even a sergeant) who made over $200,000 in a year with OT, bonus and merit pay.
UK police are well paid. They start at about the national average and by the time a cop is on top wages they earn more than 70% of the population. Add on overtime and it goes up even more.
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Old 18th December 2018, 07:52 AM   #625
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
You don't have to live in SF, to work in SF. In fact about 160,000 people do just that.
Sure you can but the entire SF Bay area has a much are cost of living than most everywhere else in the country. Its misleading to to quote pay without mentioning that.

Also, I'm an economic refuge from the Bay Area, I fully understand that you can commute for hours a day to get to your job in the City.
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Old 18th December 2018, 10:15 AM   #626
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post

Which was regarding your tu quo que as you pointed out the Brazilian police also kill at a high rate.
Brazilian police kill at a much higher rate--6 times higher to be exact--and get away with it at an even much higher rate than US police, making your dumb claim about "holding the gun in high esteem" even dumber.
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Old 18th December 2018, 12:10 PM   #627
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
22% is not 'most' It's only 1 in 5.

Posting something that directly contradicts the claim is not evidence to support it.
most, most popular. Whatever.
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Old 19th December 2018, 01:26 AM   #628
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Brazilian police kill at a much higher rate--6 times higher to be exact--and get away with it at an even much higher rate than US police, making your dumb claim about "holding the gun in high esteem" even dumber.
Could you spell out that logic? The US rate is high among developed countries and there is an idea about why that is.

That the Brazilian rate is even higher is interesting, but there's no logical necessity that both rates are high for the same reason.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it's not clear to me how you think the rate in Brazil sheds light on what's going on in the US.
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Old 19th December 2018, 05:30 AM   #629
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
most, most popular. Whatever.
I guess that's Baylor for 'yeah, I was wrong'
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Old 19th December 2018, 06:03 AM   #630
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Friendly note : The Daily Mail is a tabloid paper that is almost uniformly referred to as The Daily Fail. It is rarely a good idea to use the Daily Fail as if it was a real NEWSpaper.
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Old 19th December 2018, 06:06 AM   #631
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Sure you can but the entire SF Bay area has a much are cost of living than most everywhere else in the country. Its misleading to to quote pay without mentioning that.

Also, I'm an economic refuge from the Bay Area, I fully understand that you can commute for hours a day to get to your job in the City.
You might want to correct your first sentence - so it makes sense.
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Old 19th December 2018, 08:19 AM   #632
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
You might want to correct your first sentence - so it makes sense.
I do but its too late.

It should have read, "The entire SF Bay Area has a much higher cost of living than most of the rest of the US" So regardless of where SF cops live, 100k/year doesn't mean what it does elsewhere and pay is insufficient to explain why they might be less prone to violence than other cops.

On other topics.

Baylor was correct, 22% is the most because that is more than any other nation. Some of you seem to think it means majority or something similar, it doesn't it just means the greatest amount. That could be 1% if everyone else gets .5%.

Last edited by ahhell; 19th December 2018 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 19th December 2018, 08:38 AM   #633
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Baylor was correct, 22% is the most because that is more than any other nation. Some of you seem to think it means majority or something similar, it doesn't it just means the greatest amount. That could be 1% if everyone else gets .5%.
No because he didn't say 'the most' he said 'most' ... in fact it wasn't him that originally made the claim anyway but the original claim was that 'most emigrants want to go to the US' that's simply factually incorrect.

Because when you say 'most X are Y' then yes... it means the majority. Not the largest number of X are Y compared to P Q and Z.

In fact given that the number is 21% the correct statement would be 'most emigrants do NOT want to go the US but to other countries'
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Old 19th December 2018, 09:19 AM   #634
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Could you spell out that logic? The US rate is high among developed countries and there is an idea about why that is.

That the Brazilian rate is even higher is interesting, but there's no logical necessity that both rates are high for the same reason.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it's not clear to me how you think the rate in Brazil sheds light on what's going on in the US.
He does not understand that he made a tu quo que argument and that it fails for the reasons you give.
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Old 19th December 2018, 10:51 PM   #635
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Could you spell out that logic? The US rate is high among developed countries and there is an idea about why that is.
I highly disagree that Nessie laid out an "idea." His posts in this thread are nothing but a hodge-podge of nonsensical statements that he's frantically trying to make sense out of now that he's been called out on it. Anyone can make the stupid argument of "holding [bad thing] in high esteem." Just watch. The reason why Muslim rape gangs get away with rape in the UK is because Muslim rape gangs are held in high esteem in the UK (use the passive voice it makes you sound smarter for some reason.) Golly! I'm such worldly skeptic. I know more about the UK than UKians!

Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
That the Brazilian rate is even higher is interesting, but there's no logical necessity that both rates are high for the same reason.
Earlier in this thread I put a forth a convincing argument that there are many similarities between the US and Brazil. And some of these similarities are likely responsible for the high levels of police violence of both countries. It's makes more sense to compare the US to Brazil than to Norway (lol). But that wouldn't give the empathetic thread starter the attention and validation he was looking for.

Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it's not clear to me how you think the rate in Brazil sheds light on what's going on in the US.
Part of the reason I brought up Brazil to show Nessie was feigning outrage and had no concern for victims of police shootings in any country. He reads crap websites like "theconverastion" and ends up thinking he has a nuanced understanding of the world. I was going to elaborate further on the comparisons between US and Brazil but it's obvious to everyone Nessie has no interest in his chosen topic of discussion and is using victims of police violence for his histrionics. He never responded to my more salient points and instead imagined something I said then started arguing with himself. If you have any further questions you can read my thought-provoking posts on Brazil in this thread and reply to those. It's far more interesting than lame-brain canned answers like "holding the gun in high esteem."

Last edited by Baylor; 19th December 2018 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 19th December 2018, 11:06 PM   #636
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Friendly note : The Daily Mail is a tabloid paper that is almost uniformly referred to as The Daily Fail. It is rarely a good idea to use the Daily Fail as if it was a real NEWSpaper.
Not interested in self-righteous finger-waving. OP reads "the conversation" so have a sit down talk with him.

Last edited by Baylor; 19th December 2018 at 11:15 PM.
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Old 20th December 2018, 12:18 AM   #637
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I guess that's Baylor for 'yeah, I was wrong'
What was I wrong about?
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Old 20th December 2018, 12:20 AM   #638
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I highly disagree that Nessie laid out an "idea." His posts in this thread are nothing but a hodge-podge of nonsensical statements that he's frantically trying to make sense out of now that he's been called out on it. Anyone can make the stupid argument of "holding [bad thing] in high esteem." Just watch. The reason why Muslim rape gangs get away with rape in the UK is because Muslim rape gangs are held in high esteem in the UK (use the passive voice it makes you sound smarter for some reason.) Golly! I'm such worldly skeptic. I know more about the UK than UKians!

Earlier in this thread I put a forth a convincing argument that there are many similarities between the US and Brazil. And some of these similarities are likely responsible for the high levels of police violence of both countries. It's makes more sense to compare the US to Brazil than to Norway (lol). But that wouldn't give the empathetic thread starter the attention and validation he was looking for.

Part of the reason I brought up Brazil to show Nessie was feigning outrage and had no concern for victims of police shootings in any country. He reads crap websites like "theconverastion" and ends up thinking he has a nuanced understanding of the world. I was going to elaborate further on the comparisons between US and Brazil but it's obvious to everyone Nessie has no interest in his chosen topic of discussion and is using victims of police violence for his histrionics. He never responded to my more salient points and instead imagined something I said then started arguing with himself. If you have any further questions you can read my thought-provoking posts on Brazil in this thread and reply to those. It's far more interesting than lame-brain canned answers like "holding the gun in high esteem."
It might serve you better to wipe the foam and spittle from your mouth and concentrate on the subject matter rather than railing against your preceptions of Nessie’s motivations.
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Old 20th December 2018, 12:26 AM   #639
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
It might serve you better to [breach of rule 12 removed] concentrate on the subject matter rather than railing against your preceptions of Nessie’s motivations.
I did that but like I said:
He never responded to my more salient points and instead imagined something I said then started arguing with himself.
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Old 20th December 2018, 12:36 AM   #640
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I did that but like I said:
He never responded to my more salient points and instead imagined something I said then started arguing with himself.
The exquisite irony of you quoting rule 12 to me.
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