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Tags police issues , police misconduct charges

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Old 23rd December 2018, 03:08 AM   #681
Nessie
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Whatever news media you read, stop immediately.
Not media, history.
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Old 23rd December 2018, 03:09 AM   #682
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I remember seeing the 2nd amendment literally framed and hung on someone's wall when I was a kid. I don't know about 'mythical' but it sure is held in high esteem by many.
Baylor disagrees, that is apparently enough to make us wrong about the gun being held in high esteem in the USA.
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Old 23rd December 2018, 03:15 AM   #683
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
That's not representative of the US and people living in rural areas have more reasons to own a gun.
It is very much representative of the US.

Originally Posted by Baylor
I remember seeing stuff when I was a kid. I also saw a news story where police in the UK jumped into a Canal to save a box of korans. They don't do this for human beings. I don't know about 'mythical' but the Koran sure is held in high esteem in the UK.
Had you exerted basic reading comprehension skills before posting this, you might have noticed that the Qurans in question were removed from the canal because they violated UK garbage disposal laws (Hint: "fly-tipping"); rather than being some sort of derivative and irrelevant counterexample regarding the nature of "esteem".

Last edited by Shadowdweller; 23rd December 2018 at 03:17 AM.
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Old 23rd December 2018, 03:28 AM   #684
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I have no idea where you get the hare brained idea the 2nd is not regarded as one of the most important and defining pieces of legislation in US history.

By mythical I mean it cannot be touched, altered or tampered with in any way. It has remained exactly as it is now, since it first appeared in 1791. Even Sandy Hook was not enough to call for changes. When similar school shootings took place in Scotland, Finland and Germany, the law and rights regarding firearms possession where changed.
It's painfully obvious you have no idea what you're talking about. There's so much crap in this I don't even know where to begin. I'll just pretend I didn't read the rest of that garbage and only reply to this:
"By mythical I mean it cannot be touched, altered or tampered with in any way. It has remained exactly as it is now, since it first appeared in 1791."
I am highly aware you got your "education" on the US Constitution from reading headlines of European propaganda rags. A 7th grader would be able to tell you how stupid this is. The constitution can be interpreted in many different ways, and has been interpreted in many different ways. Your entire point that the second amendment "cannot be touched, altered or tampered with in any way," is just simply wrong. It's been interpreted in many different ways since it was ratified. You just don't know what you're talking about. It's really that simple.
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Old 23rd December 2018, 03:30 AM   #685
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Baylor disagrees, that is apparently enough to make us wrong about the gun being held in high esteem in the USA.
For the millionth time, it's not a truth-apt statement so it cannot be "right or wrong."
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Old 23rd December 2018, 03:34 AM   #686
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
It is very much representative of the US.
Nope.

Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
Had you exerted basic reading comprehension skills before posting this, you might have noticed that the Qurans in question were removed from the canal because they violated UK garbage disposal laws (Hint: "fly-tipping"); rather than being some sort of derivative and irrelevant counterexample regarding the nature of "esteem".
I disagree.
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Old 23rd December 2018, 03:40 AM   #687
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Only in your mind.
You posted it in response to a specific question. If it wasn't addressing the question asked why did you post it?
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Old 23rd December 2018, 03:42 AM   #688
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
This is the best argument that you guys could come up with? LOL.
I didn't make any argument. I asked whether Baylor disagreed with the statement that the gun is held in high esteem in the US. He wasn't clear in his response.

Do you have an opinion on that question?
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Old 23rd December 2018, 03:44 AM   #689
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I didn't make any argument. I asked whether Baylor disagreed with the statement that the gun is held in high esteem in the US. He wasn't clear in his response.
This is how clear I was:
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I disagree with that dumb statement.
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Old 23rd December 2018, 03:47 AM   #690
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Way to miss the point. Anyone can make dumb generalizations based off ignorant stereotypes.
True...but only some posters here make it their raison d'etre.

Quote:
One would think people styling themselves as "skeptics" would be above this. One would be wrong.
Indeed.
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Last edited by novaphile; 23rd December 2018 at 02:24 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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Old 23rd December 2018, 03:54 AM   #691
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
This is how clear I was:
The problem was that the statement in what you quoted wasn't the question that I asked and so your answer was ambiguous.


You disagree that the gun is held in high esteem in the USA? That seems at odds with reality. There are for example 14 million people who will claim to be members of the NRA. That's almost 5% of the population. What other organisations have equal membership in the USA? Triple A has 58m members I think so we can say the gun is probably held in less high esteem than the car.

I mean its all relative but it would seem to be held in higher esteem than say:

- the right of human beings not to be owned as slaves
- the right of a woman to have autonomy over her body and reproductive functions
- the right of individuals to have access to healthcare regardless of ability to pay
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Old 23rd December 2018, 06:10 AM   #692
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I asked whether Baylor disagreed with the statement that the gun is held in high esteem in the US. He wasn't clear in his response.
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The problem was that the statement in what you quoted wasn't the question that I asked and so your answer was ambiguous.
This is unambiguous. Don't ask me any more questions as I can't help you any further.
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Do you deny that the gun is held in high esteem in the USA?
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I disagree with that dumb statement.

Last edited by Baylor; 23rd December 2018 at 06:13 AM.
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Old 23rd December 2018, 06:16 AM   #693
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
It's painfully obvious you have no idea what you're talking about. There's so much crap in this I don't even know where to begin.
You have just admitted it is not crap and you cannot counter what I said.

Quote:
I'll just pretend I didn't read the rest of that garbage and only reply to this:
"By mythical I mean it cannot be touched, altered or tampered with in any way. It has remained exactly as it is now, since it first appeared in 1791."
I am highly aware you got your "education" on the US Constitution from reading headlines of European propaganda rags.
You are using the fallacy of poisoning the well, as you are struggling to argue against what I have said.

Quote:
A 7th grader would be able to tell you how stupid this is. The constitution can be interpreted in many different ways, and has been interpreted in many different ways. Your entire point that the second amendment "cannot be touched, altered or tampered with in any way," is just simply wrong. It's been interpreted in many different ways since it was ratified. You just don't know what you're talking about. It's really that simple.
The 2nd is worded exactly now as it was when it first appeared. Interpretations have not altered the basic tenet that it means citizens have the right to firearms and there has been very little compromise on that tenet, unlike other countries as they reacted to criminal possession of guns, mass shootings and to stay on topic, police shootings that were murders, but they get away with calling them self defence.
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Old 23rd December 2018, 06:18 AM   #694
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
This is unambiguous. Don't ask me any more questions as I can't help you any further.
Its ambiguous. Not my fault if you can't comprehend English.

Quoting something posted after your post doesn't help explain what you meant at the time.

You appeared, in fact, to be disagreeing with the statement that the right to bear arms is enshrined in your constitution.

And above you appear to be disagreeing with the statement asking if you deny it - which allowing for your poor language skills could mean you disagree with the statement that you deny it, i.e. you accept it.
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Old 23rd December 2018, 02:16 PM   #695
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The 2nd is worded exactly now as it was when it first appeared. Interpretations have not altered the basic tenet that it means citizens have the right to firearms and there has been very little compromise on that tenet
Spaghetti Westerns are not accurate historical depictions. This will be my last attempt to snap you out of your fantasy.

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Old 23rd December 2018, 06:44 PM   #696
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I'm just going to leave this here....

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...gs-bridge-mall

Quote:
Ottawa police say officers armed with rifles tackled and arrested an armed man who was accosting people at a local mall Sunday, during the peak of pre-Christmas shopping.

Police safely arrested and disarmed the man, who has not been identified, at Billings Bridge Shopping Centre after the incident at the mall and nearby McDonald’s restaurant around 5 p.m. A firearm was recovered.
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Old 23rd December 2018, 08:15 PM   #697
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I didn't make any argument. I asked whether Baylor disagreed with the statement that the gun is held in high esteem in the US. He wasn't clear in his response.

Do you have an opinion on that question?
Sure. Guns and the second amendment are held in high esteem in the United States. I consider it to be a trueism, in fact. It really has nothing to do with the horrible behavior of police and the levels of abuse they regularly heap upon a mostly-innocent populace, however, which is my only point.

It's no use to bring up for discussion the true reasons for the levels of violence in the US because people, especially foreigners, just love to disparage the gun and their owners somethin' fierce!



Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The 2nd is worded exactly now as it was when it first appeared. Interpretations have not altered the basic tenet that it means citizens have the right to firearms and there has been very little compromise on that tenet...
Utter absurd statement. There are thousands and thousands of separate laws across the nation regarding guns, ownership, where they can be used, how they're to be stored, how and when they can be shot, what kinds of ammunition can be purchased and used, and on and on.

But, hey, keep thinking that just one more law will surely make a difference this time!

The real reason cops behave the way they do is because of control. The government created, endorsed, and armed groups of people originally to hunt down slaves back in the early years and keep control of the riff raff -- which nearly always turned out to be blacks, Native Americans, other brown-skinned foreigners as well as people who were considered at one time as worthless as the blacks, such as the Italians, Germans, Irish, and so on.

First gun control laws and first anti-drug laws were passed in order to keep the blacks and other minorities unarmed and in prison. White governors were very open about their racist reasons for enacting those laws and they are still horribly racist in intent, even after the language itself has been cleaned up.

Look at the differences between powdered cocaine and crack cocaine for a great example. One is a "black guys drug" and the other is a "white man's drug".

These are the real reasons but it's not as easy to try and solve and isn't as fun as tilting at the gun windmills I suppose.
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Old 24th December 2018, 01:46 AM   #698
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Spaghetti Westerns are not accurate historical depictions.
There are not teh source of my information.

Quote:

This will be my last attempt to snap you out of your fantasy.

https://i.imgur.com/MDIeXpf.png
Is that uncredited link supposed to make me believe there is no right to bear arms in the USA????
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Old 24th December 2018, 01:57 AM   #699
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Utter absurd statement. There are thousands and thousands of separate laws across the nation regarding guns, ownership, where they can be used, how they're to be stored, how and when they can be shot, what kinds of ammunition can be purchased and used, and on and on.
There are estimated to be 88 guns per 100 people in the USA, way higher than any other western nation (and possibly the rest). Criminals and gang members have no problems getting hold of guns. There are regular mass shootings, often kids shooting other kids.

There may be lots of local laws, but they are pretty much ineffective at ensuring a successful national gun control across the USA. Those who do hold the gun in high esteem, such as the NRA, spend a lot of time and money ensuring that the right to have a gun is preserved, despite all the problems with gun control. The best form of defence against all the bad people is the gun.

Hence the USA allows and many people have, guns for self defence.

Quote:
But, hey, keep thinking that just one more law will surely make a difference this time!

The real reason cops behave the way they do is because of control. The government created, endorsed, and armed groups of people originally to hunt down slaves back in the early years and keep control of the riff raff -- which nearly always turned out to be blacks, Native Americans, other brown-skinned foreigners as well as people who were considered at one time as worthless as the blacks, such as the Italians, Germans, Irish, and so on.

First gun control laws and first anti-drug laws were passed in order to keep the blacks and other minorities unarmed and in prison. White governors were very open about their racist reasons for enacting those laws and they are still horribly racist in intent, even after the language itself has been cleaned up.

Look at the differences between powdered cocaine and crack cocaine for a great example. One is a "black guys drug" and the other is a "white man's drug".

These are the real reasons but it's not as easy to try and solve and isn't as fun as tilting at the gun windmills I suppose.
Another reason is because the police keep on being able to claim self defence and get away with shooting people.
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Old 24th December 2018, 04:43 AM   #700
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Sure. Guns and the second amendment are held in high esteem in the United States. I consider it to be a trueism, in fact.
Great. We can agree on that. Because it seems to be in dispute by one poster here. My point was that if you are going to dispute that as a fact then you can't move on to whether it is the reason for police behaviour or not. And I made no argument yet for whether it is or isn't.

Quote:
It really has nothing to do with the horrible behavior of police and the levels of abuse they regularly heap upon a mostly-innocent populace, however, which is my only point.
Well I didn't yet say it did because we were still in step 1.

Quote:
It's no use to bring up for discussion the true reasons for the levels of violence in the US because people, especially foreigners, just love to disparage the gun and their owners somethin' fierce! .
Well what are the true reasons in your opinion? What is it that is unique about the US amongst rich western democracies that means you have to go around shooting each other?
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Old 24th December 2018, 05:49 PM   #701
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Is that uncredited link supposed to make me believe there is no right to bear arms in the USA????
No one holds someone who can't admit when he's wrong in high esteem.
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Old 24th December 2018, 05:51 PM   #702
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
What is it that is unique about the US amongst rich western democracies that means you have to go around shooting each other?
We went over this. You even posted in that very thread that discussed this very topic (though you were only interested in acting goofy). Think about it, skeptic. What does the US have a lot of that Europe (at least for now) does not? Hint: it has nothing to do with "second amendment"

Put your thinking hat on, skeptic. It's not that hard. Come on now, you got this....
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Old 24th December 2018, 08:07 PM   #703
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Well what are the true reasons in your opinion? What is it that is unique about the US amongst rich western democracies that means you have to go around shooting each other?

American exceptionalism. We have a culture of violence in this nation that is based in large part on that same exceptionalism that says we're better than anyone else. The myth of the "rugged individualist" who "fights his own battles" and "doesn't let government push (him) around". The extension of that is the glorification of vigilantism, where individuals consider themselves judge, jury, and executioner. "He just needed killin' yer honor," being actually accepted as a defense against murder. A "real American" doesn't depend on the government to "do what needs to be done". And what "needs to be done" is nearly always something violent, up to and including murder.

Combine that with the sort of fragile, toxic machismo culture that permeates a lot of American culture, where an insult to one's "manhood" or reputation is considered a capital crime, and you have a recipe for a whole lot of lethal violence.
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Old 24th December 2018, 08:10 PM   #704
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
We went over this. You even posted in that very thread that discussed this very topic (though you were only interested in acting goofy). Think about it, skeptic. What does the US have a lot of that Europe (at least for now) does not? Hint: it has nothing to do with "second amendment"

Put your thinking hat on, skeptic. It's not that hard. Come on now, you got this....
Still dying on that "White people don't commit murder" racist hill are you?

Think about that... errrr Not-skeptic.
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Old 25th December 2018, 03:55 AM   #705
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
We went over this. You even posted in that very thread that discussed this very topic (though you were only interested in acting goofy). Think about it, skeptic. What does the US have a lot of that Europe (at least for now) does not? Hint: it has nothing to do with "second amendment"

Put your thinking hat on, skeptic. It's not that hard. Come on now, you got this....
Themed holiday parks?
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Old 25th December 2018, 05:28 AM   #706
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
We went over this. You even posted in that very thread that discussed this very topic (though you were only interested in acting goofy). Think about it, skeptic. What does the US have a lot of that Europe (at least for now) does not? Hint: it has nothing to do with "second amendment"
Badly educated, ignorant, clueless, racists who have never left their own country but think they know the world? Who are also armed?

Is that the answer?

Fundamentalist Christians?
People named Hank, Chad or Randy?
Trump voters?
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Old 25th December 2018, 07:58 AM   #707
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
We went over this. You even posted in that very thread that discussed this very topic (though you were only interested in acting goofy). Think about it, skeptic. What does the US have a lot of that Europe (at least for now) does not? Hint: it has nothing to do with "second amendment"

Put your thinking hat on, skeptic. It's not that hard. Come on now, you got this....
Cowboy movies.

They are very inspirational.
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Old 25th December 2018, 08:44 AM   #708
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Why would you supply evidence for a claim that no one made in response to someone asking for evidence of a completely different claim?
As a distraction?
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Old 25th December 2018, 09:10 AM   #709
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Sure. Guns and the second amendment are held in high esteem in the United States. I consider it to be a trueism, in fact. It really has nothing to do with the horrible behavior of police and the levels of abuse they regularly heap upon a mostly-innocent populace, however, which is my only point.

It's no use to bring up for discussion the true reasons for the levels of violence in the US because people, especially foreigners, just love to disparage the gun and their owners somethin' fierce!




Utter absurd statement. There are thousands and thousands of separate laws across the nation regarding guns, ownership, where they can be used, how they're to be stored, how and when they can be shot, what kinds of ammunition can be purchased and used, and on and on.

But, hey, keep thinking that just one more law will surely make a difference this time!

The real reason cops behave the way they do is because of control. The government created, endorsed, and armed groups of people originally to hunt down slaves back in the early years and keep control of the riff raff -- which nearly always turned out to be blacks, Native Americans, other brown-skinned foreigners as well as people who were considered at one time as worthless as the blacks, such as the Italians, Germans, Irish, and so on.

First gun control laws and first anti-drug laws were passed in order to keep the blacks and other minorities unarmed and in prison. White governors were very open about their racist reasons for enacting those laws and they are still horribly racist in intent, even after the language itself has been cleaned up.

Look at the differences between powdered cocaine and crack cocaine for a great example. One is a "black guys drug" and the other is a "white man's drug".

These are the real reasons but it's not as easy to try and solve and isn't as fun as tilting at the gun windmills I suppose.
WRT your example. As someone who has abused both powdered, and crack, cocaine. I can tell you that they are very, very, different.
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Old 25th December 2018, 10:47 AM   #710
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
We went over this. You even posted in that very thread that discussed this very topic (though you were only interested in acting goofy). Think about it, skeptic. What does the US have a lot of that Europe (at least for now) does not? Hint: it has nothing to do with "second amendment"

Put your thinking hat on, skeptic. It's not that hard. Come on now, you got this....
7/11's? I've got to be getting close now!
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Old 25th December 2018, 12:50 PM   #711
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There are estimated to be 88 guns per 100 people in the USA, way higher than any other western nation (and possibly the rest). Criminals and gang members have no problems getting hold of guns.
In 1968, Congress did some research and found there are 300 million firearms in the United States, in a country with a population of 200 million at that time.
The current US population is close to 327, million people, and quiet internal industry estimates place the number of firearms in the US at well over 400 million. Could be less, but could easily be twice the 1968 number.

The fact is that we don't track every sale of individual weapons because each state has its own laws. In Georgia, once you have a concealed carry permit you can walk into a gun shop and load up because you're already in the system. That individual sale is not reported to the ATF, just the gun sales at the end of the year. The ATF tracks licensees only.


The Government does keep track of firearms produced and exported each year, and those numbers (for 2014 as an example) are here:

https://www.atf.gov/news/pr/atf-rele...-export-report

This is the ATF's report on Firearms Commerce in the United States for 2017:

https://www.atf.gov/file/118216/download

We be buying guns y'all. The most interesting number is the imported numbers. We are big on Austrian and German guns.
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Old 25th December 2018, 02:01 PM   #712
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Badly educated, ignorant, clueless, racists who have never left their own country but think they know the world? Who are also armed?
Triggered.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Is that the answer?
No. The answer is fertile women.
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Old 25th December 2018, 02:02 PM   #713
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Cowboy movies.

They are very inspirational.
Guess you never heard of spaghetti westerns, the source of Nessie's claims.
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Old 25th December 2018, 02:22 PM   #714
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Still dying on that "White people don't commit murder" racist hill are you?

Think about that... errrr Not-skeptic.
You are aware the US breaks down murder statistics by race. It's no mystery who is doing the killings in the US. These daft Europeans who come to these forums and claim to be outraged by shootings in the US are showing they are the most racists of them all.

Last edited by Baylor; 25th December 2018 at 02:24 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 26th December 2018, 02:00 AM   #715
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
No one holds someone who can't admit when he's wrong in high esteem.
Wrong about what?
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Old 26th December 2018, 03:04 AM   #716
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Wrong about what?
This:

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The 2nd is worded exactly now as it was when it first appeared. Interpretations have not altered the basic tenet that it means citizens have the right to firearms and there has been very little compromise on that tenet
and this:

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
By mythical I mean [the second amendment of the US Constitution] cannot be touched, altered or tampered with in any way. It has remained exactly as it is now, since it first appeared in 1791.
and this:

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The high esteem for guns in the USA comes from history; from the 2nd amendment in 1791, through the "wild west" and the importance of the gun in the settlement and creation of the USA, to not having had to directly face the horrors of modern warfare on US civilians.
and this:

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The US population have been armed forever
and this:

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Or, disturbingly, shooting them [is] THE method of dealing with them.
and this:

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
your tu quo que argument is a fallacy.
and this:

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You hate having that pointed out, because it is an affront to American exceptionalism, rights and freedoms.

Last edited by Baylor; 26th December 2018 at 03:26 AM.
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Old 26th December 2018, 03:25 AM   #717
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
This:



and this:



and this:
The 2nd is worded exactly now as it was when it was first introduced. The USA is well known for the freedom and ease its citizens have to possess firearms. There is a history of high levels of civilian possession of guns.
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Old 26th December 2018, 03:27 AM   #718
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The 2nd is worded exactly now as it was when it was first introduced. The USA is [reification] well known[weasel words] for the freedom and ease its citizens have to possess firearms. There is a history of high levels of civilian possession of guns.
That is not going to weasel you out of the incorrect things you've said.

Last edited by Baylor; 26th December 2018 at 03:32 AM.
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Old 26th December 2018, 03:29 AM   #719
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
This:



and this:



and this:



and this:



and this:



and this:



and this:
You edited as I was replying. You have not been able to show how I was wrong.
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Old 26th December 2018, 03:32 AM   #720
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
That is not going to weasel you out of the incorrect things you've said.
You have so far shown yourself incapable of evidencing I am wrong. You have gone as far as to try and claim that Americans do not have the right to possess arms with an unattributed copy and paste and shown you do not understand tu quo que arguments, but that is about it.

I see you again edited as I replied. I suggest you need to do some evidencing before you reply. Lets start with your suggestion there is no right in the USA for citizens to own or carry guns.
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