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Old 23rd August 2017, 02:02 AM   #1441
Henri McPhee
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There was an item on the local news a couple of days ago about a posh private residential tower block above a Harvey Nicholls branch in the centre of Bristol UK. The flats cost about 350000 each. The thing is it has been discovered that the cladding on that block is exactly the same as on Grenfell Tower. It would be interesting to see how a judge rules on that legal tangle. It shows that the problem does not only apply only to the public sector.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 03:59 AM   #1442
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There was an item on the local news a couple of days ago about a posh private residential tower block above a Harvey Nicholls branch in the centre of Bristol UK. The flats cost about 350000 each. The thing is it has been discovered that the cladding on that block is exactly the same as on Grenfell Tower. It would be interesting to see how a judge rules on that legal tangle. It shows that the problem does not only apply only to the public sector.
People here have been pointing out for weeks that it doesn't. Did it take a "posh" building in bristol to make you accept that?
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Old 14th September 2017, 08:17 AM   #1443
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Some sort of professor of fire safety at the University of Central Lancashire has just said on TV that sprinklers would not have been much use at Grenfell Tower because the fire was on the outside and going through the windows. There would also have been problems with the water supply and only one or two flats could have been saved.

I just get the feeling, though it might not be fact or evidence, that with all this buy to let and right to buy that council officials just lost interest in the building and left it to the private sector to provide fire safety. Somebody needs to seize the situation like a man.
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Old 14th September 2017, 08:23 AM   #1444
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
In what way is Grenfell Tower "being tolerated"?

What else do you expect the Public Inquiry judge to come up with other than "suggested improvements"?
A time machine?
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Old 14th September 2017, 08:47 AM   #1445
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
........I just get the feeling, though it might not be fact or evidence, that with all this buy to let and right to buy that council officials just lost interest in the building and left it to the private sector to provide fire safety. Somebody needs to seize the situation like a man.
There we go again.

Spending 10 million or whatever on improvements is a funny way to show that you've "lost interest in the building".
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Old 14th September 2017, 09:17 AM   #1446
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From Wikipedia; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenfe...and_insulation
Quote:
In 2014 safety experts cautioned that the planned insulation was only suitable for use with non-combustible cladding. The Guardian saw a certificate from the building inspectors’ organisation, Local Authority Building Control (LABC), which stated that the chosen insulation for the refit should be used on tall buildings only with fibre cement panels, which do not burn. Combustible panels with polyethylene were put up on top of insulation known as Celotex RS5000, made from polyisocyanurate, which burns when heated giving off toxic cyanide fumes.
Seems like someone lost interest in making real improvements concerning fire safety.
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Old 19th September 2017, 06:46 AM   #1447
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BBC News: Grenfell death toll 'may be below 80'

"The number of people who died in the Grenfell Tower fire may be a little lower than the previous estimate of 80, police have said.

They say the figure "may come down a little bit" because of some potential cases of fraud...."

"It emerged that the force is investigating eight cases in which people may have fraudulently claimed money, as well as four allegations of theft from Grenfell Tower - one involved a "considerable" sum of money."
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:05 AM   #1448
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There was an item on TV yesterday saying that cladding had been discovered on a private residential block of flats in Glasgow exactly the same as Grenfell Tower, and the owners and the fire brigade not informed. It has been deliberately covered up.

Edited by Darat:  Breach of Rule 11 removed.

Last edited by Darat; 21st September 2017 at 02:40 AM.
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:45 AM   #1449
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There was an item on TV yesterday saying that cladding had been discovered on a private residential block of flats in Glasgow exactly the same as Grenfell Tower, and the owners and the fire brigade not informed. It has been deliberately covered up.

Edited by Darat:  Breach of Rule 11 removed.
Don't 'spose you've got any evidence?

No. I thought not.
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:49 AM   #1450
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It is 57 private residential blocks, some of which have partial use of that cladding.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...lmost-11208392

The scandal as such is the council did not appear to tell anyone, such as the firebrigade, so they are forewarned.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 08:39 PM   #1451
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Question: If someone was caught in a conflagration like this, is there anything he could do to give himself at least a chance of surviving? There was one account of a woman "flooding" her apartment and living. Suppose you kept spraying your walls down with a garden hose? Lie down in the bathtub with the shower running? Anything? I know fumes would be as bad as the fire, but maybe wet towels around the door and across your face would help. I think I'd want to try something, no matter how desperate.
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Old 25th September 2017, 04:39 AM   #1452
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Question: If someone was caught in a conflagration like this, is there anything he could do to give himself at least a chance of surviving? There was one account of a woman "flooding" her apartment and living. Suppose you kept spraying your walls down with a garden hose? Lie down in the bathtub with the shower running? Anything? I know fumes would be as bad as the fire, but maybe wet towels around the door and across your face would help. I think I'd want to try something, no matter how desperate.
I am told if you are trapped in a room you put towels under the door. That will stop smoke entering the room. Though the fire could burn down the door. One person says make sure you are not above the 6th floor on the grounds that the firefighters would have ladders that can rescue you from the lower floors. The key though is before buying an apartment in a high rise si to check out the fire stairs. Must be at least two of them, with fireproof doors.
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Old 25th September 2017, 06:19 AM   #1453
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
..... The key though is before buying an apartment in a high rise si to check out the fire stairs. Must be at least two of them, with fireproof doors.
That isn't so. It should be, but isn't.
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Old 25th September 2017, 09:32 AM   #1454
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
I am told if you are trapped in a room you put towels under the door. That will stop smoke entering the room. Though the fire could burn down the door. One person says make sure you are not above the 6th floor on the grounds that the firefighters would have ladders that can rescue you from the lower floors. The key though is before buying an apartment in a high rise si to check out the fire stairs. Must be at least two of them, with fireproof doors.
Which didn't really apply in this social housing. I guess it was effectively get housed in Grenfell Tower, or get no housing.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:34 AM   #1455
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
That isn't so. It should be, but isn't.
It might not be required legally (although in most of the U.S. I think it is), but as the consumer you could limit your search to safer buildings. Of course, in public housing you don't have much choice, which goes back to my original question: If this is where you're stuck, what do you do?
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:45 AM   #1456
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
I am told if you are trapped in a room you put towels under the door. That will stop smoke entering the room. Though the fire could burn down the door. One person says make sure you are not above the 6th floor on the grounds that the firefighters would have ladders that can rescue you from the lower floors. The key though is before buying an apartment in a high rise si to check out the fire stairs. Must be at least two of them, with fireproof doors.
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
That isn't so. It should be, but isn't.
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It might not be required legally (although in most of the U.S. I think it is), but as the consumer you could limit your search to safer buildings. Of course, in public housing you don't have much choice, which goes back to my original question: If this is where you're stuck, what do you do?
I think that is what rjh01 was saying, not that it's legally required, and Mike misunderstood.
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Old 25th September 2017, 12:03 PM   #1457
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It wasn't all council housing. Because of the right to buy scheme some of the flats were private-sector rentals and some were owner-occupied. Ideally people should refuse to rent or buy property in a block without two stairwells, but the housing situation in London being what it is, that's a difficult ideal to hold to.
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Old 25th September 2017, 02:41 PM   #1458
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I think that is what rjh01 was saying, not that it's legally required, and Mike misunderstood.
Correct. If you have a choice of where you live having two stairs is safer. If there is a fire and one fire stairs is blocked (smoke, other people) then you can use the other stairs.
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Old 27th September 2017, 02:38 AM   #1459
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There was an item on Channel 4 News in the UK yesterday interviewing one of the Grenfell Tower victims who lost six members of his family in the disaster. In a statement issued by his solicitor he complains that there was a police helicopter flying around and several victims tried to move up the stairs because they thought they might be rescued. They were given wrong advice to stay put.

Officially the police now say that no helicopters are used to rescue burning victims. I just think that if the RAF search and rescue had not been scrapped then they would not have been left to their fate. Bond helicopters don't seem to be up to the job. Prince William and his crew could have made an attempt if they had been asked at the time.
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Old 27th September 2017, 03:19 AM   #1460
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I don't think anyone would have attempted an airlift off the top of a building that was going up like a torch. You'd just end up losing the chopper crew as well.
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Old 27th September 2017, 06:36 AM   #1461
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Which didn't really apply in this social housing. I guess it was effectively get housed in Grenfell Tower, or get no housing.
Apart from the private properties in the block bought under RTB.
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Old 27th September 2017, 06:42 AM   #1462
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There was an item on Channel 4 News in the UK yesterday interviewing one of the Grenfell Tower victims who lost six members of his family in the disaster. In a statement issued by his solicitor he complains that there was a police helicopter flying around and several victims tried to move up the stairs because they thought they might be rescued. They were given wrong advice to stay put.

Officially the police now say that no helicopters are used to rescue burning victims. I just think that if the RAF search and rescue had not been scrapped then they would not have been left to their fate. Bond helicopters don't seem to be up to the job. Prince William and his crew could have made an attempt if they had been asked at the time.
This thinking seems to be on the same level as asking why forest fire-fighting aircraft weren't used....
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Old 29th September 2017, 10:12 AM   #1463
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It is 57 private residential blocks, some of which have partial use of that cladding.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...lmost-11208392

The scandal as such is the council did not appear to tell anyone, such as the firebrigade, so they are forewarned.
19, all private, which is interesting. Procurement issue?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-41434219
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Old 1st October 2017, 03:25 AM   #1464
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
This thinking seems to be on the same level as asking why forest fire-fighting aircraft weren't used....
That would have made marginally more sense.


I hate to think what the updraughts and turbulence associated with the Grenfall fire would have been like at the top of the towerblock. Let alone the heat.

The only solution would have been to have ensured the towerblock was robust when confronted with fire.

Sprinkler systems that contained the fire or even extinguished it in one flat and reduced the smoke in the stairwell might have been a better option. Not having flammable cladding would obviously been important too.

Rescue helicopters
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Old 11th December 2017, 01:48 AM   #1465
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Update on this from Radio 4. Many still in temporary accommodation, as there is very limited housing locally. There were 128 households made homeless, but the council needs to find 300 houses as many households want to split up, so there were people living in their grandparents flat who now want their own separate from their grand parent.
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Old 11th December 2017, 05:14 AM   #1466
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Update on this from Radio 4. Many still in temporary accommodation, as there is very limited housing locally. There were 128 households made homeless, but the council needs to find 300 houses as many households want to split up, so there were people living in their grandparents flat who now want their own separate from their grand parent.
There were 127 flats in the Tower, but according to this report there were "208 families," of which 42 have moved into permanent accomodation, and another 48 had accepted an offer, but not yet moved in. That leaves "118 families" still in temporary accomodation.

So, basically, of those 118 remaining families, some of them want to split up so that they'll actually end up occupying 210 properties.

This is starting to look like taking the piss. Reasonable reparations are one thing, milking the system is another.

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Old 11th December 2017, 09:07 AM   #1467
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
There were 127 flats in the Tower, but according to this report there were "208 families," of which 42 have moved into permanent accomodation, and another 48 had accepted an offer, but not yet moved in. That leaves "118 families" still in temporary accomodation.

So, basically, of those 118 remaining families, some of them want to split up so that they'll actually end up occupying 210 properties.

This is starting to look like taking the piss. Reasonable reparations are one thing, milking the system is another.

Try not, in your righteous indignation, to lose sight of the fact that, requests to split up aside, 118 remaining families are still awaiting "reasonable accommodations".
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Old 11th December 2017, 10:39 AM   #1468
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
There were 127 flats in the Tower, but according to this report there were "208 families," of which 42 have moved into permanent accomodation, and another 48 had accepted an offer, but not yet moved in. That leaves "118 families" still in temporary accomodation.

So, basically, of those 118 remaining families, some of them want to split up so that they'll actually end up occupying 210 properties.

This is starting to look like taking the piss. Reasonable reparations are one thing, milking the system is another.
The question is what did they leave behind, and what is being offered to them? If more than one family shared a large apartment, and the new accommodations offered are, say, single rooms in a boarding house, obviously some adjustments need to be made. Maybe they need financial help to move to a different neighborhood.
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Old 11th December 2017, 11:55 AM   #1469
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The question is what did they leave behind, and what is being offered to them? If more than one family shared a large apartment, and the new accommodations offered are, say, single rooms in a boarding house, obviously some adjustments need to be made. Maybe they need financial help to move to a different neighborhood.
The money set aside to provide accommodation is greater than 1,000,000 per household; purchasing them new flats in central London is not cheap!
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Old 12th December 2017, 03:10 AM   #1470
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Try not, in your righteous indignation, to lose sight of the fact that, requests to split up aside, 118 remaining families are still awaiting "reasonable accommodations".
It seems that the authorities been prioritising those in the most need (i.e. families with children), who are repeatedly turning turn offers. We don't know what the latter have been, but if they were hovels, no doubt we would have heard about it. In the meantime, some of those low on the priority list (i.e. single people or childless couples) have not been offered anything at all, because the authorities are tied up trying to please the first group.
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Old 12th December 2017, 03:37 AM   #1471
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It seems that the authorities been prioritising those in the most need (i.e. families with children), who are repeatedly turning turn offers. We don't know what the latter have been, but if they were hovels, no doubt we would have heard about it.
Don't you think we would have heard about it if they had been mansions? Or even perfectly acceptable flats?
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Old 12th December 2017, 07:53 AM   #1472
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Don't you think we would have heard about it if they had been mansions? Or even perfectly acceptable flats?
You must have a short memory....
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Old 12th December 2017, 08:43 AM   #1473
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
...and they turned those down - the article isn't clear
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Old 12th December 2017, 09:48 AM   #1474
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
...and they turned those down - the article isn't clear
I took Matthew's reply as suggesting that we don't know what type of homes are being offered one way or the other, after I said that if they were hovels (and therefore turned down on those grounds) we would probably have heard about it. In fact, we know that some of the allocated properties are decidedly not hovels.

Maybe it's Grenfell Fatigue, but it's getting a bit boring hearing reports about how many people have been offered new accomodation and turned it down, at the same time some are complaining they've not been re-housed in the promised timescale.

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Old 12th December 2017, 10:22 AM   #1475
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I remember that one of the reasons that housing was being turned down was that properties were being offered that were private rental rather than council owned with the rent fixed for a certain period. People offered them were saying that they were afraid to take them because if they reverted to market rates at the end of that period they couldn't afford them (and as they would no longer be existing council tenants and go to the end of the waiting list).
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Old 12th December 2017, 10:33 AM   #1476
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
...and they turned those down - the article isn't clear
Or was the plan blocked by people who objected to letting the riffraff move in? It's not clear if the plan ever went to fruition.
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Old 13th December 2017, 12:32 AM   #1477
Hubert Cumberdale
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Why is it necessary to house people, at public expense, in the most expensive neighborhood in the country?

It seems like a depraved waste of resources.

I'd also like subsidized accommodation in the centre of London. Why do some people get it and not others?

People bang on about social justice regarding Grenfell, but where is the natural justice in a select few people having tax-payer subsidized housing in the Royal Borough while most other people, including some very needy or deserving people, do not?

Frankly it pisses me off. If you're relying on the state to house you then your choice of where you live should be limited on the basis on cost and availability.
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Old 13th December 2017, 03:35 AM   #1478
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Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale View Post
Why is it necessary to house people, at public expense, in the most expensive neighborhood in the country?

It seems like a depraved waste of resources.

I'd also like subsidized accommodation in the centre of London. Why do some people get it and not others?

People bang on about social justice regarding Grenfell, but where is the natural justice in a select few people having tax-payer subsidized housing in the Royal Borough while most other people, including some very needy or deserving people, do not?

Frankly it pisses me off. If you're relying on the state to house you then your choice of where you live should be limited on the basis on cost and availability.
It depends on what kind of city you/we want. If you're happy with a Johannesburg-style city where there is a large upmarket part which is serviced by workers who have to trek in for hours to get there then the way you do that is to eliminate working people from large sections of the city by refusing to provide social or affordable housing.

The purpose of social housing wasn't just to put people in homes, otherwise people would have been shipped oop North to towns where housing is cheap. It's also to ensure that there are key workers for the rich and privileged and that support networks aren't stretched to breaking. If you're asking teachers, nurses, police (and shopworkers, cleaners and a myriad other people) to spend 20+ hours a week commuting then we're not going to get the best from them.
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Old 13th December 2017, 03:39 AM   #1479
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It seems that the authorities been prioritising those in the most need (i.e. families with children), who are repeatedly turning turn offers. We don't know what the latter have been, but if they were hovels, no doubt we would have heard about it. In the meantime, some of those low on the priority list (i.e. single people or childless couples) have not been offered anything at all, because the authorities are tied up trying to please the first group.
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Don't you think we would have heard about it if they had been mansions? Or even perfectly acceptable flats?
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I took Matthew's reply as suggesting that we don't know what type of homes are being offered one way or the other
Looking at that exchange I can see how you can come to that conclusion but I don't think it's the most obvious one. You were complaining about people who were "repeatedly turning down offers" it seemed clear to me that Matthew Best was referring to them.
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Old 13th December 2017, 03:43 AM   #1480
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Maybe it's Grenfell Fatigue, but it's getting a bit boring hearing reports about how many people have been offered new accomodation and turned it down, at the same time some are complaining they've not been re-housed in the promised timescale.
Maybe we're not in full possession of the facts.

If you lost your two-bedroom council flat then perhaps a damp, cramped one-bedroom private rental isn't something that you're willing to accept for you, your spouse and two children especially if, as P.J. Denyer suggests, the rent may become unaffordable very quickly and you'll be at the end of the social housing queue when that happens.
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