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Old 23rd August 2017, 02:02 AM   #1441
Henri McPhee
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There was an item on the local news a couple of days ago about a posh private residential tower block above a Harvey Nicholls branch in the centre of Bristol UK. The flats cost about 350000 each. The thing is it has been discovered that the cladding on that block is exactly the same as on Grenfell Tower. It would be interesting to see how a judge rules on that legal tangle. It shows that the problem does not only apply only to the public sector.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 03:59 AM   #1442
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There was an item on the local news a couple of days ago about a posh private residential tower block above a Harvey Nicholls branch in the centre of Bristol UK. The flats cost about 350000 each. The thing is it has been discovered that the cladding on that block is exactly the same as on Grenfell Tower. It would be interesting to see how a judge rules on that legal tangle. It shows that the problem does not only apply only to the public sector.
People here have been pointing out for weeks that it doesn't. Did it take a "posh" building in bristol to make you accept that?
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Old 14th September 2017, 08:17 AM   #1443
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Some sort of professor of fire safety at the University of Central Lancashire has just said on TV that sprinklers would not have been much use at Grenfell Tower because the fire was on the outside and going through the windows. There would also have been problems with the water supply and only one or two flats could have been saved.

I just get the feeling, though it might not be fact or evidence, that with all this buy to let and right to buy that council officials just lost interest in the building and left it to the private sector to provide fire safety. Somebody needs to seize the situation like a man.
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Old 14th September 2017, 08:23 AM   #1444
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
In what way is Grenfell Tower "being tolerated"?

What else do you expect the Public Inquiry judge to come up with other than "suggested improvements"?
A time machine?
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Old 14th September 2017, 08:47 AM   #1445
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
........I just get the feeling, though it might not be fact or evidence, that with all this buy to let and right to buy that council officials just lost interest in the building and left it to the private sector to provide fire safety. Somebody needs to seize the situation like a man.
There we go again.

Spending 10 million or whatever on improvements is a funny way to show that you've "lost interest in the building".
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Old 14th September 2017, 09:17 AM   #1446
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From Wikipedia; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenfe...and_insulation
Quote:
In 2014 safety experts cautioned that the planned insulation was only suitable for use with non-combustible cladding. The Guardian saw a certificate from the building inspectors’ organisation, Local Authority Building Control (LABC), which stated that the chosen insulation for the refit should be used on tall buildings only with fibre cement panels, which do not burn. Combustible panels with polyethylene were put up on top of insulation known as Celotex RS5000, made from polyisocyanurate, which burns when heated giving off toxic cyanide fumes.
Seems like someone lost interest in making real improvements concerning fire safety.
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Old 19th September 2017, 06:46 AM   #1447
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BBC News: Grenfell death toll 'may be below 80'

"The number of people who died in the Grenfell Tower fire may be a little lower than the previous estimate of 80, police have said.

They say the figure "may come down a little bit" because of some potential cases of fraud...."

"It emerged that the force is investigating eight cases in which people may have fraudulently claimed money, as well as four allegations of theft from Grenfell Tower - one involved a "considerable" sum of money."
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:05 AM   #1448
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There was an item on TV yesterday saying that cladding had been discovered on a private residential block of flats in Glasgow exactly the same as Grenfell Tower, and the owners and the fire brigade not informed. It has been deliberately covered up.

Edited by Darat:  Breach of Rule 11 removed.

Last edited by Darat; 21st September 2017 at 02:40 AM.
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:45 AM   #1449
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There was an item on TV yesterday saying that cladding had been discovered on a private residential block of flats in Glasgow exactly the same as Grenfell Tower, and the owners and the fire brigade not informed. It has been deliberately covered up.

Edited by Darat:  Breach of Rule 11 removed.
Don't 'spose you've got any evidence?

No. I thought not.
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:49 AM   #1450
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It is 57 private residential blocks, some of which have partial use of that cladding.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...lmost-11208392

The scandal as such is the council did not appear to tell anyone, such as the firebrigade, so they are forewarned.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 08:39 PM   #1451
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Question: If someone was caught in a conflagration like this, is there anything he could do to give himself at least a chance of surviving? There was one account of a woman "flooding" her apartment and living. Suppose you kept spraying your walls down with a garden hose? Lie down in the bathtub with the shower running? Anything? I know fumes would be as bad as the fire, but maybe wet towels around the door and across your face would help. I think I'd want to try something, no matter how desperate.
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Old 25th September 2017, 04:39 AM   #1452
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Question: If someone was caught in a conflagration like this, is there anything he could do to give himself at least a chance of surviving? There was one account of a woman "flooding" her apartment and living. Suppose you kept spraying your walls down with a garden hose? Lie down in the bathtub with the shower running? Anything? I know fumes would be as bad as the fire, but maybe wet towels around the door and across your face would help. I think I'd want to try something, no matter how desperate.
I am told if you are trapped in a room you put towels under the door. That will stop smoke entering the room. Though the fire could burn down the door. One person says make sure you are not above the 6th floor on the grounds that the firefighters would have ladders that can rescue you from the lower floors. The key though is before buying an apartment in a high rise si to check out the fire stairs. Must be at least two of them, with fireproof doors.
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Old 25th September 2017, 06:19 AM   #1453
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
..... The key though is before buying an apartment in a high rise si to check out the fire stairs. Must be at least two of them, with fireproof doors.
That isn't so. It should be, but isn't.
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Old 25th September 2017, 09:32 AM   #1454
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
I am told if you are trapped in a room you put towels under the door. That will stop smoke entering the room. Though the fire could burn down the door. One person says make sure you are not above the 6th floor on the grounds that the firefighters would have ladders that can rescue you from the lower floors. The key though is before buying an apartment in a high rise si to check out the fire stairs. Must be at least two of them, with fireproof doors.
Which didn't really apply in this social housing. I guess it was effectively get housed in Grenfell Tower, or get no housing.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:34 AM   #1455
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
That isn't so. It should be, but isn't.
It might not be required legally (although in most of the U.S. I think it is), but as the consumer you could limit your search to safer buildings. Of course, in public housing you don't have much choice, which goes back to my original question: If this is where you're stuck, what do you do?
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:45 AM   #1456
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
I am told if you are trapped in a room you put towels under the door. That will stop smoke entering the room. Though the fire could burn down the door. One person says make sure you are not above the 6th floor on the grounds that the firefighters would have ladders that can rescue you from the lower floors. The key though is before buying an apartment in a high rise si to check out the fire stairs. Must be at least two of them, with fireproof doors.
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
That isn't so. It should be, but isn't.
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It might not be required legally (although in most of the U.S. I think it is), but as the consumer you could limit your search to safer buildings. Of course, in public housing you don't have much choice, which goes back to my original question: If this is where you're stuck, what do you do?
I think that is what rjh01 was saying, not that it's legally required, and Mike misunderstood.
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Old 25th September 2017, 12:03 PM   #1457
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It wasn't all council housing. Because of the right to buy scheme some of the flats were private-sector rentals and some were owner-occupied. Ideally people should refuse to rent or buy property in a block without two stairwells, but the housing situation in London being what it is, that's a difficult ideal to hold to.
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Old 25th September 2017, 02:41 PM   #1458
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I think that is what rjh01 was saying, not that it's legally required, and Mike misunderstood.
Correct. If you have a choice of where you live having two stairs is safer. If there is a fire and one fire stairs is blocked (smoke, other people) then you can use the other stairs.
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Old 27th September 2017, 02:38 AM   #1459
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There was an item on Channel 4 News in the UK yesterday interviewing one of the Grenfell Tower victims who lost six members of his family in the disaster. In a statement issued by his solicitor he complains that there was a police helicopter flying around and several victims tried to move up the stairs because they thought they might be rescued. They were given wrong advice to stay put.

Officially the police now say that no helicopters are used to rescue burning victims. I just think that if the RAF search and rescue had not been scrapped then they would not have been left to their fate. Bond helicopters don't seem to be up to the job. Prince William and his crew could have made an attempt if they had been asked at the time.
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Old 27th September 2017, 03:19 AM   #1460
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I don't think anyone would have attempted an airlift off the top of a building that was going up like a torch. You'd just end up losing the chopper crew as well.
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Old 27th September 2017, 06:36 AM   #1461
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Which didn't really apply in this social housing. I guess it was effectively get housed in Grenfell Tower, or get no housing.
Apart from the private properties in the block bought under RTB.
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Old 27th September 2017, 06:42 AM   #1462
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There was an item on Channel 4 News in the UK yesterday interviewing one of the Grenfell Tower victims who lost six members of his family in the disaster. In a statement issued by his solicitor he complains that there was a police helicopter flying around and several victims tried to move up the stairs because they thought they might be rescued. They were given wrong advice to stay put.

Officially the police now say that no helicopters are used to rescue burning victims. I just think that if the RAF search and rescue had not been scrapped then they would not have been left to their fate. Bond helicopters don't seem to be up to the job. Prince William and his crew could have made an attempt if they had been asked at the time.
This thinking seems to be on the same level as asking why forest fire-fighting aircraft weren't used....
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Old 29th September 2017, 10:12 AM   #1463
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It is 57 private residential blocks, some of which have partial use of that cladding.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...lmost-11208392

The scandal as such is the council did not appear to tell anyone, such as the firebrigade, so they are forewarned.
19, all private, which is interesting. Procurement issue?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-41434219
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Old 1st October 2017, 03:25 AM   #1464
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
This thinking seems to be on the same level as asking why forest fire-fighting aircraft weren't used....
That would have made marginally more sense.


I hate to think what the updraughts and turbulence associated with the Grenfall fire would have been like at the top of the towerblock. Let alone the heat.

The only solution would have been to have ensured the towerblock was robust when confronted with fire.

Sprinkler systems that contained the fire or even extinguished it in one flat and reduced the smoke in the stairwell might have been a better option. Not having flammable cladding would obviously been important too.

Rescue helicopters
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