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Tags Aung San Suu Kyi , Burma issues , Burma politics , US-Burma relations

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Old 17th September 2017, 07:01 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
On that particular point the Roman Catholic Church is much more clever than the Nobel price committee. They wait until a person is dead before making him/her a saint. And they still make mistakes...

The Nobel Peace Prize should never be awarded to a living person...
Nor to a dead person. It's the only way to be safe.
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Old 17th September 2017, 12:07 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Nor to a dead person. It's the only way to be safe.
At least you allow the undead. Dracula shall keep his prize in medicine, for all his work with blood groups.
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Old 17th September 2017, 03:30 PM   #43
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It is in the news here, but you have to look for it.

Reasons?

1. Who is Myanmar?
2. Few American ties. (No colony or military bases.)
3. The story is too complex for a 3min segment.
4. We don't follow cricket.
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Old 18th September 2017, 04:46 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Do Americans just not give a crap?
Of course we don't. Really has any genocide ever that you thought americans gave a crap about it while it was happening? In 15 years there will be a oscar award winning movie about it and that will be that.
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Old 18th September 2017, 09:02 AM   #45
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This is interesting. In 2007, the government of Canada under the leadership of right wing Prime Minister Stephen Harper awarded Aung San Suu Kyi an honourary Canadian citizenship. It's not given lightly. Only five others have received this honour: Raoul Wallenberg (posthumous), Nelson Mandela, the Dalai Lama, Karim Aga Khan, and Malala Yousafzai. Maybe the authoritarian Harper, the only Prime Minster in the history of the British Commonwealth to have been found in contempt of Parliament, saw something in Suu Kyi that others missed?

This past weekend there was a rally on Parliament Hill in Ottawa urging the current Liberal government to rescind the honour. So far the government has been silent on this issue. Prime Minister Trudeau, however, has spoken to Aung San Suu Kyi about the Rohingya issue.
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Old 18th September 2017, 04:34 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Nor to a dead person. It's the only way to be safe.
Actually, they should just give it to me every year. I promise I won't start any wars.
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Old 18th September 2017, 05:01 PM   #47
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CNN is finally catching up - an entire feature column with three articles on the situation on their home page. I guess it took them a couple of weeks to sift through the decent reporting in the European and notably Brit press. (England has a long history with Burma. Perhaps that's the reason they were more keen on the coverage.)
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Old 19th September 2017, 03:50 AM   #48
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Suu Kyi just cashed in any political coin she had left from her "glory" years. Stood up and didn't address Myanmar (because they don't speak English, duh) but told the junta's lies.

The Beeb radio this morning was anticipating this and commented that she still had an out, to hide behind the fact that she and her government have had nothing to do with the military actions and appear to be critical of them.

She did nothing of the sort. She offered up smarmy-mouthed apologia. The old "gee, you can some and see for yourself" that Myanmar is famous for. (And by the time you get the permits and get to the villages that are okay to visit, for your safety, you understand, you see the Burmese equivalent of those Russian villages along the Volga. )

I had some (very small) hope that she would take the reins. No such luck.
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Old 19th September 2017, 04:15 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
This is interesting. In 2007, the government of Canada under the leadership of right wing Prime Minister Stephen Harper awarded Aung San Suu Kyi an honourary Canadian citizenship. It's not given lightly. Only five others have received this honour: Raoul Wallenberg (posthumous), Nelson Mandela, the Dalai Lama, Karim Aga Khan, and Malala Yousafzai. Maybe the authoritarian Harper, the only Prime Minster in the history of the British Commonwealth to have been found in contempt of Parliament, saw something in Suu Kyi that others missed?

This past weekend there was a rally on Parliament Hill in Ottawa urging the current Liberal government to rescind the honour. So far the government has been silent on this issue. Prime Minister Trudeau, however, has spoken to Aung San Suu Kyi about the Rohingya issue.
That will have been helpful for her because unfortunately she doesn't know what is happening or why it is happening... in her country....

Perhaps we should club together to get her a cable package with CNN?
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Old 19th September 2017, 12:08 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I had some (very small) hope that she would take the reins. No such luck.
Does she have access to reins? Her speech sounded more like "Help us!".

She implores over and over (16 times) for the international community to come "join us" to help solve the internal conflicts. Solving the Rohingya issue doesn't change the fundamental problem of a bad constitution which leaves her party at the mercy of a corrupted and unchecked military power.

She is asking for an international mandate.
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Old 19th September 2017, 12:25 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
She implores over and over (16 times) for the international community to come "join us" to help solve the internal conflicts.
That's what the old military government did too.

Then severely restricted what international observers were allowed to see.
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Old 19th September 2017, 12:56 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
That's what the old military government did too.

Then severely restricted what international observers were allowed to see.
One detail that makes me more sympathetic to her is that back in 2012 she tried, and failed, to dissuade billions in foreign investment until corruption could be curtailed. Investment that went primarily to the military.

From 2012:
Quote:
President Barack Obama announced Wednesday he is lifting the investment ban on Burma, allowing U.S. companies to enter Burma’s lucrative energy sector, above the objections of Nobel Peace Prize winner Aung San Suu Kyi.
A list of bi-partisan Senators objected, writing to Sec. Clinton:
Quote:
We share Aung San Suu Kyi’s concerns that MOGE’s operations lack transparency, that it remains overly influenced by the Burmese military, and that the large amounts of foreign investment flowing into MOGE are not sufficiently accountable to the Burmese people or its parliament
To get in on the oil contracts, many countries ignored the human rights concerns. This made her job that much harder by making her adversaries so much stronger.

She may have since resigned herself to compromise with them. I don't know.

Last edited by Sherkeu; 19th September 2017 at 12:58 PM. Reason: added clinton
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Old 19th September 2017, 12:56 PM   #53
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I follow it every day on France24 English, best cable news on offer around these parts. It isn't front page news on the WaPo or NYT, that's for sure. Terrible situation; clearly genocidal. I can understand somewhat the bad attitude of financially strapped Bangladesh, less so that of India, while Myanmar is doing its sullied reputation another solid.
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Old 19th September 2017, 07:51 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
One detail that makes me more sympathetic to her is that back in 2012 she tried, and failed, to dissuade billions in foreign investment until corruption could be curtailed. Investment that went primarily to the military.

From 2012:


A list of bi-partisan Senators objected, writing to Sec. Clinton:


To get in on the oil contracts, many countries ignored the human rights concerns. This made her job that much harder by making her adversaries so much stronger.

She may have since resigned herself to compromise with them. I don't know.
You're pinning the hopes of a million people on something she said five years ago? That was back when she still believed that "the good generals" would convince the bad guys to step down and return the country to civilian rule. *

The generals used her to get restrictions lifted and to open up the economy to foreign investment and capital. The owners of those companies benefiting by this are still those same generals and their cronies. She's been reduced to a front.

The generals have been making those same plaintive pleas for years. Just come see what the situation is like here. We need your help to solve this. Then when you/they get there, you are restricted. MSF was prevented from getting to the people who needed help. Aid goods went into warehouses owned by junta members and cronies and were kept from the people who needed them. Numerous aid organizations were not allowed access. And this happened over and over.

Then. under the cloak of the pretty lady who won the Peace Prize, they further disempower the minority and disenfranchise them. They've made the situation worse for the Rohingya but since they're not killing monks and students in the streets of the capital, that's okay, and hey, they're open for business, at least. Right?

*ETA: And that was when she was still under house arrest and persona non grata in the halls of power. It was a power play to get the western democracies to help her get the generals out, or to at least show them that there was something more to "power" than merely having all the guns.
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Old 20th September 2017, 06:24 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by KatieG View Post
I've only seen a couple of articles about this. US media is wallowing in hurricane porn and barely skimming the damage done in the Caribbean. This planet is on a dangerous course, both environmental and humanity.

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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
We used to love

Aung San Suu Kyi

But then she went

On a genocide spree

Burma-Shave
Nice one, shemp.
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Old 20th September 2017, 09:00 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
You're pinning the hopes of a million people on something she said five years ago? That was back when she still believed that "the good generals" would convince the bad guys to step down and return the country to civilian rule. *

The generals used her to get restrictions lifted and to open up the economy to foreign investment and capital. The owners of those companies benefiting by this are still those same generals and their cronies. She's been reduced to a front.

The generals have been making those same plaintive pleas for years. Just come see what the situation is like here. We need your help to solve this. Then when you/they get there, you are restricted. MSF was prevented from getting to the people who needed help. Aid goods went into warehouses owned by junta members and cronies and were kept from the people who needed them. Numerous aid organizations were not allowed access. And this happened over and over.

Then. under the cloak of the pretty lady who won the Peace Prize, they further disempower the minority and disenfranchise them. They've made the situation worse for the Rohingya but since they're not killing monks and students in the streets of the capital, that's okay, and hey, they're open for business, at least. Right?

*ETA: And that was when she was still under house arrest and persona non grata in the halls of power. It was a power play to get the western democracies to help her get the generals out, or to at least show them that there was something more to "power" than merely having all the guns.
Yeah, if she's saying "come look and see what's happening" and then others are then going "oh-em-gee, sorry UN observer team, your credentials are not in order" or only showing them clearly staged scenes and presenting them with properly coerced witnesses, then her name is being made a mockery of and she should resign to make that clear.
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Old 20th September 2017, 09:20 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Yeah, if she's saying "come look and see what's happening" and then others are then going "oh-em-gee, sorry UN observer team, your credentials are not in order" or only showing them clearly staged scenes and presenting them with properly coerced witnesses, then her name is being made a mockery of and she should resign to make that clear.
Assuming she cares. The Burmese have been inundated for years by a very vocal and very paranoid Buddhist majority who parrot the "nationalists" in Europe and North America (okay, and Aussies, too) that Muslims are multiplying and will overrun them.

A propo of the OP, CNN evidently got some boots on the ground and had a very revealing report of the person-in-the-street's attidues. Almost all of them believe that the Muslims had it coming and are a threat. All they hear is the government approved version of the story. The Burmese I know are all ex-pats and are decent people. I can see, though, how protected from actual news they'll believe whatever they're told. And I think Suu Kyi, as a figurehead, lends credence to the government's lies. She really should resign as a major gesture, but that assumes, as I said, that she cares. She's made fairly broad negative statements about the Rohingya in the past and seems to suffer from the same prejudices that the elitists in that country all seem to suffer from.
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Old 21st September 2017, 03:01 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Assuming she cares. The Burmese have been inundated for years by a very vocal and very paranoid Buddhist majority who parrot the "nationalists" in Europe and North America (okay, and Aussies, too) that Muslims are multiplying and will overrun them.
which makes it a good place for some trial runs before the west follows suit.
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Old 21st September 2017, 04:47 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Assuming she cares. The Burmese have been inundated for years by a very vocal and very paranoid Buddhist majority who parrot the "nationalists" in Europe and North America (okay, and Aussies, too) that Muslims are multiplying and will overrun them.

A propo of the OP, CNN evidently got some boots on the ground and had a very revealing report of the person-in-the-street's attidues. Almost all of them believe that the Muslims had it coming and are a threat. All they hear is the government approved version of the story. The Burmese I know are all ex-pats and are decent people. I can see, though, how protected from actual news they'll believe whatever they're told. And I think Suu Kyi, as a figurehead, lends credence to the government's lies. She really should resign as a major gesture, but that assumes, as I said, that she cares. She's made fairly broad negative statements about the Rohingya in the past and seems to suffer from the same prejudices that the elitists in that country all seem to suffer from.
I went back through older news and saw the numerous times these things have repeated. Wow. I guess I am a few years late in trying to find a rationale for her actions. People are past that now.
She has been denying, deflecting, minimizing, and dehumanizing these people for a long time.

What is her possible vision here? For a peaceful apartheid state? She must know that will not work out well. They will resist like the Tamils in Sri Lanka.

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Old 21st September 2017, 06:44 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Assuming she cares. The Burmese have been inundated for years by a very vocal and very paranoid Buddhist majority who parrot the "nationalists" in Europe and North America (okay, and Aussies, too) that Muslims are multiplying and will overrun them.
Hmm. A review of the history of the sub continent suggests that this paranoia may be founded in migration patterns from the 800s forward. Then again, having just finished a short course on European history, 400 to 1400, migrations happen.
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:08 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Hmm. A review of the history of the sub continent suggests that this paranoia may be founded in migration patterns from the 800s forward. Then again, having just finished a short course on European history, 400 to 1400, migrations happen.
Many of the most calamitous results of which derived from denying basically any entry whatsoever until plagues had severely depopulated many provinces (even then, quite sparse and barely even rural except for a few cities along the borders). Then constantly shifting support among them to keep them divided while bilking them of strength and resources and snubbing them from equality along with the occasional genocide of a whole sub-branch.
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:38 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Hmm. A review of the history of the sub continent suggests that this paranoia may be founded in migration patterns from the 800s forward. Then again, having just finished a short course on European history, 400 to 1400, migrations happen.
The thing is, of course, the state of Bangladesh is a creation by committee in the west and both being old colonial power colonies (Burma and India), the border is arbitrary. The Rohingya had been moving in and out of the Rakhine State area for centuries before Islam came to the area.

Like many states in the area, misdrawn borders didn't account for the movement of people. Cambodians, Thais and Laotians have had fluid borders for the last millenium. The whole area is a history of tiny kingdoms conquering each other and seizing unnatural land masses. (Look at the Thai/Burma border in our west - it's ridiculous - and only held that position because Thailand very judiciously avoided major conflicts with the Colonial powers. "Oh, you want that unreasonably long strip of our coast line? Well, we didn't like it, anyway!")
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Old 22nd September 2017, 03:54 AM   #63
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Amazing kicker on this profile of Ashin Wirathu, one of the monks allegedly fueling the ethnic cleansing of Rohingya.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 04:28 AM   #64
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Who thinks it would be a good idea, if you're Rohingya, to take up Suu Kyi's (actually the generals') offer to return home to your camps in Rakhine State?

Why, Australia does! In their agreement to close down the scandalous camp in Papua New Guinea, they've taken Trump's advice and are releasing those they can onto the streets of the (last time I saw a ranking) Most Dangerous City in the World. The camps are to be closed by the end of October, I think, and the administrators have started shutting off services to convince them to leave... out into Port Moresby with no legal status, no jobs, no protection.

If they'll go back, the Aussie government will pay them generously. Seems a somewhat immoral way to clean up the camp.

And let's not forget... these are the refugees Trump grudgingly agreed he'd take in - but has not done.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...return-myanmar
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:36 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Cambodians, Thais and Laotians have had fluid borders for the last millenium.
The worship of "lines on the map" that seems to have become the norm for the last two centuries is a feature of a world where the UN tries to preserve lines on the map, regardless of those lines being sensible in the first place. You and I can kvetch about it, but those lines are a norm of our (so called) civilized world. (In part due to them being a convenient way to establish jurisdiction, among other things ...)

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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:57 PM   #66
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About ARSA, the "Arakan Rohingya Salvation Army".
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Old 24th September 2017, 12:33 PM   #67
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ARSA or ARSE?
What's the difference?
By the way, your link didn't want to load. Apparently, my antivirus/firewall does not care for it. Got a better source?
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Old 24th September 2017, 01:01 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
By the way, your link didn't want to load. Apparently, my antivirus/firewall does not care for it. Got a better source?

Asia Times is a reputable website. Fix your stuff.
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Old 24th September 2017, 02:49 PM   #69
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CE, I'll try the Christian Science Monitor. They, at least, don't offend my internet security protocols and are not MSM. My initial take is that they are like the Pashtun, but just aren't as good at fighting.

Insofar as governments responding to insurrections go, I invite you to read up on Sherman's March to the Sea and Phil Sheridan's invasion of the Shenendoah Valley. It appears that various governments all over the world throughout history react badly to what they deem to be rebellion or insurrection. See also the Whiskey Rebellion, the Roman Crackdown on the Jews in the First Century AD/CE, and the response in 1948 to the "revolutions" in Europe. The Russians let the Georgians know, and the Chechens, and others who the big dog was. And not so long ago, they laid that lumber on the Hugarians, the Czechs, and the Germans. Unter Den Linden was renamed Strasse de 17 Juni for a reason, mein freund.

Same stuff, different day. What makes the Rohingya special?

Quote:
the UN Security Council called for “immediate steps to end the violence in Rakhine.
The UN security council has also called on NK to adhere to its joining the NPT a decade or more ago.
Hah. Good luck with that.
Quote:
“It is a real humanitarian disaster there,” says Phil Robertson, deputy director of Human Rights Watch’s Asia division. “Everything is overwhelmed.”
Sorry, Phil, I already sent my charitable donations to Puerto Rico.
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Old 24th September 2017, 03:08 PM   #70
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DR, the Asia Times article is mirrored on archive.is. You'll have to scroll down a little bit to get to the content, as the layout is disturbed by the lack of scripts in the saved copy.

edit: The CSM article isn't more than a 101 I think most readers here already know, and doesn't explain in any depth the reasons for the current escalation or the actors involved.
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Old 24th September 2017, 03:12 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
DR, the Asia Times article is mirrored on archive.is. You'll have to scroll down a little bit to get to the content, as the layout is disturbed by the lack of scripts.
Thank you, will take a look.
EDIT: Interesting take on the methods of ARSA.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 12:41 AM   #72
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Rohingya Recount Atrocities: ‘They Threw My Baby Into a Fire’

Quote:
COX’S BAZAR, Bangladesh — Hundreds of women stood in the river, held at gunpoint, ordered not to move.

A pack of soldiers stepped toward a petite young woman with light brown eyes and delicate cheekbones. Her name was Rajuma, and she was standing chest-high in the water, clutching her baby son, while her village in Myanmar burned down behind her.

“You,” the soldiers said, pointing at her.

She froze.

“You!”

She squeezed her baby tighter.

In the next violent blur of moments, the soldiers clubbed Rajuma in the face, tore her screaming child out of her arms and hurled him into a fire. She was then dragged into a house and gang-raped.

By the time the day was over, she was running through a field naked and covered in blood. Alone, she had lost her son, her mother, her two sisters and her younger brother, all wiped out in front of her eyes, she says.

Rajuma is a Rohingya Muslim, one of the most persecuted ethnic groups on earth, and she now spends her days drifting through a refugee camp in Bangladesh in a daze.

She relayed her story to me during a recent reporting trip I made to the camps, where hundreds of thousands of Rohingya like her have rushed for safety. Her deeply disturbing account of what happened in her village, in late August, was corroborated by dozens of other survivors, whom I spoke with at length, and by human rights groups gathering evidence of atrocities.

Survivors said they saw government soldiers stabbing babies, cutting off boys’ heads, gang-raping girls, shooting 40-millimeter grenades into houses, burning entire families to death, and rounding up dozens of unarmed male villagers and summarily executing them.
Shouldn't we at least place the sanctions on Myanmar that used to be in place?

Also, should these stories be taken at face value? This is genocidal-level stuff if true, killing babies, raping women.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 05:30 PM   #73
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A hash tag campaign will make a lot of people feel like they care.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 11:50 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Shouldn't we at least place the sanctions on Myanmar that used to be in place?
I guess so. Trump and company appear to be taking some limited action. I'll admit that I'm not really sure how the heck anyone is going to be able to resolve this situation humanely. Even if the government of Myanmar agreed to take the Rohingya refugees back for some reason that just seems like a situation that could lead to a full-fledged genocide pretty easily. Bangladesh is also being put in a truly awful situation.
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Old 24th October 2017, 09:00 AM   #75
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Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is trying a soft diplomacy approach: he's sending Bob Rae, a senior politician, to the country as a special envoy. I'm not sure if this will have any impact at all. It looks like the generals running the country are not easily influenced by diplomatic niceties.
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Old 17th November 2017, 02:48 AM   #76
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http://www.theage.com.au/world/myanm...16-gzn5b2.html

Security forces targeting children. Speechless.
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Old 17th November 2017, 03:43 AM   #77
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But Rex is coming to their rescue. A Trump-like posture to start with doesn't bode well for US intervention. I paraphrase, but not by much,... "... there are definitely bad things being done but whether they qualify as ethnic cleansing, we can't say, yet."

I take it Rex has learned there's no oil there, so he's just filling time. I think he's either home or on his way home. I won't hold my breath expecting forceful action from Washington. A bunch of foreign ministers (many of the countries who were at the APEC just a few days ago) are supposedly en route for discussions next week. Since nothing came out of APEC, and nothing ever comes out of any of the ASEAN confabs, I expect more nothing.
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Old 17th November 2017, 04:19 AM   #78
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Bob Geldof renounced his Freedom of the City of Dublin in protest to raise awareness of the issues.
He didn't want to be on the same honour roll as Aung San Suu Kyi.
He didn't get any praise for it though. Just a complaint that he has a British honorary knighthood and the British Empire did bad stuff in the past.
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Old 17th November 2017, 04:40 AM   #79
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The Nobel should be rescinded.
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Old 17th November 2017, 05:17 AM   #80
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Justin Trudeau and Emmanuel Macron will just give nice speeches to RAISE AWARENESS and everyone will go home with a pat on their back.
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