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Old 16th March 2015, 08:24 PM   #281
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The letter actually says "racist and exclusionary" as if someone is being excluded based on the basis of race, but you are confident that OU’s published EEO polices, which specifically address racial exclusion, are not at the core of this case. Um, okay.

As to process, you will note that the letter specifies an opportunity to appeal and bring along legal counsel.
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Old 16th March 2015, 08:33 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post

I have no idea if he consulted his legal staff. Neither do you.

One of those two statements is true.

Quote:
He said the university’s legal staff was exploring whether the students who initiated and encouraged the chant may have violated Title VI of the Civil Rights Act, which prohibits racial discrimination.

“We are also going to look at any individual perpetrators, particularly those that we think took a lead in this kind of activity,” Boren said.
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/local...cist-video.ece
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Old 17th March 2015, 08:00 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The letter actually says "racist and exclusionary" as if someone is being excluded based on the basis of race
Racist and exclusionary what? Racist and exclusionary chant. How can a chant be exclusionary? It can't actually exclude anyone. It might make people feel excluded, but it's still just speech. There is still no charge, none whatsoever, that any actual discrimination in admissions took place.

Quote:
but you are confident that OU’s published EEO polices, which specifically address racial exclusion, are not at the core of this case. Um, okay.
Yes, I am confident of that, because that's what the letter makes quite clear: the entire offense was a content-based speech offense. There is nothing more to the University's case against the students it expelled.

Quote:
As to process, you will note that the letter specifies an opportunity to appeal and bring along legal counsel.
What, you think that compensates for the violations of due process that the University already engaged in at the time they wrote that letter? Yeah, no, it doesn't work that way.

There's a reason that almost every lawyer who has written about this case has said that the University is in the wrong (and I only say "almost" because it's possible I might have overlooked someone who defended the University, but I can't find any).
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Old 17th March 2015, 04:43 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Racist and exclusionary what? Racist and exclusionary chant. How can a chant be exclusionary? It can't actually exclude anyone. It might make people feel excluded, but it's still just speech.

Any collection of words which says “Hey fellow SAE’s let’s all remember never to treat black people as equals or allow them into our whites-only club” is still just speech as well. Doesn't matter how you pass on that meme (writing, chanting, binary code, Braille) you're still doing racism and ignoring the legal and ethical norms of equal opportunity.
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Old 17th March 2015, 04:50 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
... doing racism and ignoring the legal and ethical norms of equal opportunity.

I don't know what that means. Is there a codified offence regarding the act of "ignoring the legal and ethical norms...?"
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Old 17th March 2015, 05:00 PM   #286
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Racist OU chapter banned by national organization

I've linked the relevant EEO polices upthread. Read them at your leisure.
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Old 17th March 2015, 08:55 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Any collection of words which says “Hey fellow SAE’s let’s all remember never to treat black people as equals or allow them into our whites-only club” is still just speech as well.
Yes, it is just speech. Apparently you don't believe in free speech. That is really what this boils down to.
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Old 21st March 2015, 04:53 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes, it is just speech. Apparently you don't believe in free speech. That is really what this boils down to.

Yup. There is literally zero difference between free speech and private speech in furtherance of an unlawful conspiracy to violate federal anti-discrimination laws. ****** brilliant.
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Old 21st March 2015, 04:59 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Yup. There is literally zero difference between free speech and private speech in furtherance of an unlawful conspiracy to violate federal anti-discrimination laws. ****** brilliant.
It appears the difference is based on ones conclusions about the content.

That is cool. Tho, I will fight to the death your right to argue that the first amendment should be limited to whatever you think it means.
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Old 21st March 2015, 05:00 PM   #290
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Racist OU chapter banned by national organization

Right. It's all about what I think, personally, rather than decades of legal precedent which have carved out well-specified areas in which speech may be considered unlawful here in the U.S.
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Old 21st March 2015, 05:11 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Right. It's all about what I think, personally, rather than decades of legal precedent which have carved out well-specified areas in which speech may be considered unlawful here in the U.S.
Yep, I mean you are declaring a stupid chant on a bus as an unlawful conspiracy to further a conspiracy to violate anti-discrimination laws, or some such nonsense.
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Old 21st March 2015, 06:56 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Yup. There is literally zero difference between free speech and private speech in furtherance of an unlawful conspiracy to violate federal anti-discrimination laws. ****** brilliant.
You keep trying to move the goalpost. The University has not alleged any such illegal conspiracy, that had NOTHING to do with their decision to expel the students, that is entirely your own delusion. And at this point, it really is fair to call it a delusion, because you've been called out on it far too many times to simply not be aware that you're just making stuff up.

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Right. It's all about what I think, personally, rather than decades of legal precedent which have carved out well-specified areas in which speech may be considered unlawful here in the U.S.
Oh dear, you really are in deep denial.

Yes, we have decades (more, in fact) of legal precedent regarding restricted and protected speech. And all of it, all of it, points to this speech as being protected. I've already given examples of case law. And nobody (least of all you) has provided any counter-examples.
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Old 24th March 2015, 04:32 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You keep trying to move the goalpost. The University has not alleged any such illegal conspiracy, that had NOTHING to do with their decision to expel the students, that is entirely your own delusion. And at this point, it really is fair to call it a delusion, because you've been called out on it far too many times to simply not be aware that you're just making stuff up.
To be absolutely and unequivocally clear, here are my goalposts: Can a public university take action to prevent a fraternal organization from systematically discriminating against black applicants?

And here is the answer, from around a half century ago: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...ial+grounds%22

The only question remaining is whether there is a legal loophole for systematic discrimination accomplished and inculcated via speech (i.e. immature antisocial atonal chanting) passed on from upperclassmen to underclassmen, year after year.
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Old 24th March 2015, 04:40 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
...that had NOTHING to do with their decision to expel the students...
Which is why Boren mentioned that the chant was racially exclusionary and also mentioned violations of equal opportunity prior to the expulsion in question.

NOTHING TO SEE HERE.
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Old 24th March 2015, 05:23 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
To be absolutely and unequivocally clear, here are my goalposts: Can a public university take action to prevent a fraternal organization from systematically discriminating against black applicants?

And here is the answer, from around a half century ago: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...ial+grounds%22

The only question remaining is whether there is a legal loophole for systematic discrimination accomplished and inculcated via speech (i.e. immature antisocial atonal chanting) passed on from upperclassmen to underclassmen, year after year.
Once again: the university made no allegation that the fraternity actually discriminated against any applicants to the fraternity. The university made no allegation that the members it expelled discriminated against any applicants to the fraternity. The university made no allegation that the members it expelled were even involved with the admission process for applicants.

You're simply making **** up.

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Which is why Boren mentioned that the chant was racially exclusionary and also mentioned violations of equal opportunity prior to the expulsion in question.

NOTHING TO SEE HERE.
Boren used Newspeak, and you fell for it. "exclusionary chant" is meaningless drivel. The only violation here is offensive speech. Use all the adjectives you want to describe that speech, but nothing more than offensive speech has been demonstrated. Hell, nothing more has even been alleged by the university.

The university does not believe in free speech, and neither do you. I wouldn't say that's nothing to see, it's quite something to see. And it's pathetic.
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Old 24th March 2015, 06:17 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Once again: the university made no allegation that the fraternity actually discriminated against any applicants to the fraternity.
What part of "racist and exclusionary" doesn't sound like an accusation of racial discrimination to you?

If something is exclusionary, it is excluding people.

Why is it excluding people? Because of their race, since it is racist.

BEHOLD THE BLEEDING OBVIOUS TRUTH.
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Old 24th March 2015, 07:42 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What part of "racist and exclusionary" doesn't sound like an accusation of racial discrimination to you?

If something is exclusionary, it is excluding people.

Why is it excluding people? Because of their race, since it is racist.

BEHOLD THE BLEEDING OBVIOUS TRUTH.
You are treating adjectives as if they were verbs. They are not. What did the expelled students actually DO? They sang a song. Attach whatever adjectives you want to that, but the verb is still just "chant". They are being punished for singing a song, and NOTHING MORE. That is the obvious truth here, a truth that you are trying to obfuscate with nonsensical claims.

Face it, you don't believe in free speech. You just don't have the guts to say it plainly.
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Old 24th March 2015, 08:43 PM   #298
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I don't believe that unlawful conspiracy to violate Title VI is legally protected speech, and I've said so quite plainly.
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Old 25th March 2015, 02:51 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I don't believe that unlawful conspiracy to violate Title VI is legally protected speech, and I've said so quite plainly.
The university has alleged no such conspiracy, nor any unlawful action of any kind. The speech in question is not unlawful, it is merely offensive.

Again, stop making **** up. And man up and admit that you simply don't believe in free speech.
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Old 25th March 2015, 01:39 PM   #300
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Racist OU chapter banned by national organization

Merely offensive speech would be something like, “**** those [racial slur]s, they ain’t ****.”

A violation of Title VI would be something like “We solemnly swear never to allow negroes to pledge into our fraternity, nay, we would rather commit extrajudicial homicide than allow such a travesty of race-mixing.”

Of course, you can do both offensive and unlawful at the same time if you really work at it. Which they did, no matter how vehemently you insist otherwise.
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Old 25th March 2015, 01:57 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Merely offensive speech would be something like, “**** those [racial slur]s, they ain’t ****.”

A violation of Title VI would be something like “We solemnly swear never to allow negroes to pledge into our fraternity, nay, we would rather commit extrajudicial homicide than allow such a travesty of race-mixing.”

Of course, you can do both offensive and unlawful at the same time if you really work at it. Which they did, no matter how vehemently you insist otherwise.
I wonder if you can find a single lawyer who will publicly stand behind your fanciful legal theory.
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Old 25th March 2015, 07:55 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I wonder if you can find a single lawyer who will publicly stand behind your fanciful legal theory.
We may well see.
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Old 26th March 2015, 06:46 AM   #303
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Mod WarningKeep it civil, folks. No reason to personalize this.
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Old 27th March 2015, 03:43 PM   #304
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An OU report says that the students learned the chant at a national SAE leadership event.
Quote:
After investigating a racist chant sung by Sigma Alpha Epsilon fraternity brothers on their way to an SAE Founders Day event, University of Oklahoma officials have concluded that members of the fraternity learned the words at a leadership event hosted by SAE’s national headquarters four years earlier.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/g...dership-event/

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Old 27th March 2015, 03:44 PM   #305
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The University's investigation has revealed the apparent source of the chant, which helps explain why claims have arisen of it being heard in three different chapters of the fraternity:

Quote:
The university launched an investigation into the use of the chant, and school president David Boren announced today school officials had found that the 2011 cruise, an annual event, was the first known contact that their students had with the song.

"While there is no indication that the chant was part of the formal teaching of the national organization, it does appear that the chant was widely known and informally shared amongst members on the leadership cruise," Boren wrote in his letter.

It was then brought back to the school's chapter where it was shared with members and pledges for the past four years.

"Over time, the chant was formalized in the local SAE chapter and was taught to pledges as part of the formal and informal pledgeship process," the university's report states, going on to describe it as part of the "institutionalized culture of the chapter."

According to the SAE website, the 2011 cruise was scheduled to be held on a Royal Caribbean cruise ship over four days in August. The annual cruise departs out of Miami and, more than 700 undergraduates are expected to attend this summer's trip.
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Old 27th March 2015, 03:47 PM   #306
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Shocked, I say, shocked, I am to discover that this was an ongoing institutional problem rather than an isolated outburst.
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Old 27th March 2015, 06:43 PM   #307
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"While there is no indication that the chant was part of the formal teaching of the national organization,"

Shocking. Offensive yes. Unlawful, no.
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Old 27th March 2015, 08:13 PM   #308
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Ah, so that explains why nobody's said anything about arresting anyone over this incident. I confess I was boggled for a little while there!
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Old 27th March 2015, 08:52 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Shocking. Offensive yes. Unlawful, no.
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Ah, so that explains why nobody's said anything about arresting anyone over this incident. I confess I was boggled for a little while there!
d4m10n claimed it was unlawful. I'm still boggled.
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Old 28th March 2015, 10:02 AM   #310
d4m10n
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Racist OU chapter banned by national organization

I wasn't the first person to make that claim, actually. It was someone legally empowered to enforce Title VI who did that.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...ial+grounds%22

https://news.google.com/newspapers?n...,4700038&hl=en

tl;dr - State schools must enforce federal anti-discrimination laws upon student groups, including fraternities, or else risk losing federal funding.
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Old 28th March 2015, 11:41 AM   #311
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I wasn't the first person to make that claim, actually. It was someone legally empowered to enforce Title VI who did that.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...ial+grounds%22

https://news.google.com/newspapers?n...,4700038&hl=en

tl;dr - State schools must enforce federal anti-discrimination laws upon student groups, including fraternities, or else risk losing federal funding.
You are the only person in this thread that I can recall who has made the claim that the two students who were expelled had violated the law. And again, the university has never made the claim that these two students violated the law. Your references are not at all equivalent to what happened here, and therefore are not relevant, just like the cases about primary schools restricting the speech rights of minors isn't relevant.
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Old 8th April 2015, 03:14 PM   #312
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Which of these statements do you think is false, Ziggurat?

1) It is unlawful to refuse to admit black students into a fraternity, at a public university, on racial grounds.

2) SAE at OU had a policy, passed on from upperclassmen to underclassmen, that they will always refuse to admit black students to a fraternity, at a public university, on racial grounds.
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Old 8th April 2015, 04:27 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Which of these statements do you think is false, Ziggurat?

1) It is unlawful to refuse to admit black students into a fraternity, at a public university, on racial grounds.

2) SAE at OU had a policy, passed on from upperclassmen to underclassmen, that they will always refuse to admit black students to a fraternity, at a public university, on racial grounds.
by policy you mean song?
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Old 8th April 2015, 05:47 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
by policy you mean song?
Yes, he means song.

But none of it is relevant, because the university has never alleged that the SAE chapter refused to admit black students, or that the students it expelled even had anything to do with admission decisions. It's kind of pathetic, really, but then so are most assaults on free speech.
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Old 8th April 2015, 06:51 PM   #315
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You didn't answer the questions, Zig.
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Old 8th April 2015, 06:54 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes, he means song.

But none of it is relevant, because the university has never alleged that the SAE chapter refused to admit black students, or that the students it expelled even had anything to do with admission decisions. It's kind of pathetic, really, but then so are most assaults on free speech.
Thx.

A lot of this happening here -
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Old 8th April 2015, 06:56 PM   #317
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Racist OU chapter banned by national organization

It's really odd, to me, that people seem to sincerely believe that singing the racist exclusionary policy in private (instead of foolishly writing it down or unthinkingly putting it down on some recorded medium) somehow makes it less unlawful.
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Old 8th April 2015, 07:25 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
It's really odd, to me, that people seem to sincerely believe that singing the racist exclusionary policy in private (instead of foolishly writing it down or unthinkingly putting it down on some recorded medium) somehow makes it less unlawful.
Listen to yourself. You're saying that singing in private can be unlawful. The government, according to you, has the power to determine what you can and cannot sing, in private.

You've jumped the shark completely now.
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Old 8th April 2015, 07:26 PM   #319
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Racist OU chapter banned by national organization

Does the government have the power to punish them for writing down and following through on racially exclusionary policies, Zig?
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Old 9th April 2015, 03:10 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Does the government have the power to punish them for writing down and following through on racially exclusionary policies, Zig?
See that key bit from your statement? The bit I hilighted?

It's missing in this case. The university has never alleged that the fraternity followed through, let alone that the expelled students had any hand in following through. That bit is completely a figment of your imagination, and has no bearing on this case.

I've told you this repeatedly now, but you still can't seem to grasp what should be a simple concept.
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