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Old 7th June 2016, 08:47 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Yes, I do. He is a rapist. Given the opportunity he will rape again.
I don't think it's true at all. They have people that study this stuff and a very good at assigning probability to re-offend. There are many different types of people that commit this type of crimes which each have a different future risk potential. Ted Bundy... would been a high risk to re-offend. Kobe Bryant, probably not.

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
As mentioned elsewhere, killing can be a momentary lapse of judgement, severe anger unchecked, it only takes a second to pull the trigger. Rape takes longer, there are more chances to change your mind.
No. It can take a second to violate someone. Are you a real doctor?
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Old 7th June 2016, 09:00 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
He was given a second chance, he was given a third chance, he was given multiple chances to stop short of rape. He didn't. And now he will have to pay the least possible penalty I can imagine.
I could see him living with crippling depression for the rest of his life. Perhaps suicide... if that prospect makes you feel better.
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Old 7th June 2016, 09:03 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Tale View Post
But that's not the only consideration. Society itself needs to have how serious this was impressed upon it. Evidently. And a strong sentence would not simply be about reforming the young adult who is clearly deprived of a good education of the rights of other human beings, but also signaling to people at large that this is a very serious thing.

What are the unintended consequences for doing this?
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Old 7th June 2016, 09:10 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
Someone edited the letter written by the father to highlight the misogyny and ignorance shown therein. This, I think, showcases brilliantly just how ignorant and stupid that letter from Brock Turner's dad was.



Why are people so shocked people advocate for their children? This happens almost all the time. When kids commit these type of crimes... think murder, school shootings or terrorism as well parents will grasp on to almost anything to deny their loved ones guilt..... it's called denial. It happens ALL the time. Why are people shocked at this?

Last edited by Caper; 7th June 2016 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 7th June 2016, 09:34 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Minor point: the victim was not a Stanford student. Just a girl who came to the party to get black-out drunk.
And Brock Turner was a "promising athlete on the swim team"
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Old 7th June 2016, 09:37 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
Why are people so shocked people advocate for their children? This happens almost all the time. When kids commit these type of crimes... think murder, school shootings or terrorism as well parents will grasp on to almost anything to deny their loved ones guilt..... it's called denial. It happens ALL the time. Why are people shocked at this?

Yeah, that was my first thought as well. Parents generally have a hard time believing their offspring might have done something awful, and will generally defend their children to the end.
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Old 7th June 2016, 10:22 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
Why are people so shocked people advocate for their children? This happens almost all the time. When kids commit these type of crimes... think murder, school shootings or terrorism as well parents will grasp on to almost anything to deny their loved ones guilt..... it's called denial. It happens ALL the time. Why are people shocked at this?
Nothing wrong with parents advocating for their children

Everything wrong with making statements that are insulting to the victims of the crimes they commit.
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Old 7th June 2016, 10:26 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Everything wrong with making statements that are insulting to the victims of the crimes they commit.

Except that, in their calculus, they are defending their child, and thus rationalize, to some degree, that their child was the victim of some sort of unfair circumstance. (As Caper observed, this is not an unusual occurrence.)

Blood is thicker than water, to use the old saying, and thus parents may not act in particularly rational fashion.
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Old 7th June 2016, 10:35 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Nothing wrong with parents advocating for their children

Everything wrong with making statements that are insulting to the victims of the crimes they commit.


I'm not arguing if he was right or wrong. I'm pondering why people are surprised by this. This is a VERY common reaction. I am willing to wager that most everyone engages it on a much smaller scale. It's very common, even to the point of attacking the victim. I'm sure in that fathers mind his son is a victim and he does not believe anything unconsensual occurred. Which like I said, is a very normal reaction.
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Old 7th June 2016, 11:10 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
I'm not arguing if he was right or wrong. I'm pondering why people are surprised by this. This is a VERY common reaction. I am willing to wager that most everyone engages it on a much smaller scale. It's very common, even to the point of attacking the victim. I'm sure in that fathers mind his son is a victim and he does not believe anything unconsensual occurred. Which like I said, is a very normal reaction.
There's a difference between being critical and being surprised.
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Old 7th June 2016, 11:19 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by quixotecoyote View Post
There's a difference between being critical and being surprised.
Right. But what I'm seeing (not necessarily on here) is this complete shock that a father would write a letter in support of his son, even that the father would want to minimize his sons actions.
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Old 7th June 2016, 11:38 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
I'm not arguing if he was right or wrong. I'm pondering why people are surprised by this. This is a VERY common reaction. I am willing to wager that most everyone engages it on a much smaller scale. It's very common, even to the point of attacking the victim. I'm sure in that fathers mind his son is a victim and he does not believe anything unconsensual occurred. Which like I said, is a very normal reaction.
I'm not surprised by it. I'm disgusted by it. I realize that every person is raised differently, but I personally was raised to take responsibility for my actions. Had I committed a similar crime (and, while I am neither male nor an athlete, I was part of a white, upper-middle-class family who lacked for very little and was able to send three children to college in three years with minimal effect on the overall finances), my mother and my stepfather would have made DAMN sure that I knew how wrong I was to do something like that, and while they would have stood by me and supported me to some extent, when confronted with the overwhelming evidence that I did in fact commit the crime, they would have felt that whatever punishment I was given would be justified and would not, likely, have asked for leniency for me.

There were witnesses to his son's crime. The girl in question was unconscious and therefore according to California law legally unable to give any form of consent to his son's actions. A jury of his peers unanimously found him guilty on all three counts brought against him. And yet, faced with this overwhelming evidence of his son's guilt, his father still downplayed the crime because "he's a good boy" who was "forever changed" by that night, completely ignoring the fact that his son was not the victim in this case. He was the one who committed the crime.

There's standing by and supporting your child, and then there's excusing their every wrongdoing with a simple hand wave of "he/she's young, he/she doesn't really know any better and I'm sure they won't do it again." Brock Turner's father is doing the latter, and that is a slippery, dangerous slope to be on. His son was perfectly capable of making the right decision in this case, and to me the fact that he didn't very likely points to a history of his father forgiving past, minor wrongdoings with similar excuses, therefore leading Brock to believe that he could get away with more and more.

Supposedly, right after the crime occurred, Brock told police he never planned to take her back to his dorm, didn't know why he was behind a dumpster with her, got up to leave because he didn't feel well and was suddenly chased and tackled by the two men who came upon him and the victim. And then he learned she could not remember what happened, and his story changed drastically; suddenly the two of them were dancing together, were kissing and hand holding, and oh by the way, he suddenly remembered that she said yes to everything. This despite the fact that she was so drunk she could barely stand and was completely unconscious when he was discovered jabbing his hand into her and dry-humping her half-naked body. And all because she could not remember exactly what happened. Yup, the actions of a truly remorseful, penitent lad right there.

Quite frankly, I'm utterly shocked that anyone can defend that letter from Brock Turner's father when they understand the facts of the case. So he loves his son; so what? HIS SON IS A RAPIST. There is overwhelming evidence to support that fact. He deserves punishment for his crime. His inability to eat foods he used to eat and the loss of his happy-go-lucky attitude should have been considered entirely immaterial to sentencing, and if that father had the slightest ounce of morality, he would stand back and let his son take whatever punishment was dished out because HE COMMITTED A CRIME. Loving your children is perfectly fine, but you cannot and SHOULD not try to shield them from the consequences of their actions, especially if those actions are against the law. I don't know of a single parent in my circle of acquaintances, friends, and family that would disagree with that assessment.
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Old 8th June 2016, 12:17 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
That letter makes me sick. It's a perpetuation of the unfortunate standard of rape culture in the United States these days; that because the perpetrator is young, bright, has a good future, or has a relatively rare skillset (i.e. his swimming) that it should somehow excuse him. WRONG. He raped this girl. She was blackout drunk and therefore legally incapable of giving any form of consent. I have absolutely no sympathy for Brock Turner, and indeed I would be... well, not happy, because I don't think anyone should be raped, but I would almost feel like he got his just desserts if he were raped in prison just so he would know what it feels like to have his body violated. I don't advocate anything like that happening, understand, but my visceral, instinctive reaction to hearing news like that would be, I have to admit, "well, now he knows what it feels like when someone violates you without consent." Doubt it will happen though.

Setting my disgust for Brock himself aside, I cannot believe that Brock Turner's father wrote such a sickening letter. What if it had been his daughter who got so drunk she literally passed out and had some guy on top of her humping her and sticking his dirty fingers in her vagina? It's fairly clear that man has no daughters or he would never have written such a vomit-inducing letter.

The rape victim wrote what is, in my opinion, a far more powerful letter that was read at Turner's sentencing hearing, and I have to wonder just how steeped in white privilege that judge was to not let this sway his decision to only sentence Turner to six months in prison. The entire text is on Buzzfeed; excerpt below:



Her words have been read by over five million people. I hope even more read them and realize just how shameful it is that one in four women in the United States have been raped or sexually assaulted, and yet rape is the most underreported crime in the country strictly because of situations like this, where the victim is cruelly and unjustly revictimized during the trial, forced to relive her assault in excruciating detail, and many times made out to be a slut or worse simply because of the way she was dressed or was acting. It is absolutely no excuse on the part of the person assaulting her. What we need is to teach everyone, boys and girls, that they do not ever, under any circumstances, have the right to do something like this to another person, and that they are responsible for their own actions no matter what the other person may or may not have done or said. Brock Turner should be ashamed of himself, and his father even more for perpetuating the myth that simply because his son was badly affected by this that it means he's been punished enough. Newsflash, you SOB; YOUR SON IS A RAPIST and he deserves every ounce of punishment he gets, and more if I'm quite frank about it, since I personally believe the sentence handed down by Judge Persky was a travesty of justice, and I sincerely hope it's overturned on appeal and a stricter sentence is handed down by the appeals judge. But Brock Turner does not deserve any sympathy in this, no matter what punishment he receives, and I am utterly enraged by his father's pathetic attempt to excuse his son's actions. It is not okay, and will never BE okay, to ever insinuate that a person who raped another person has suffered enough because he was "a good kid, with a bright future ahead of him". Period, end of story, mic drop.

I'll get down off my soapbox now.
I have no scruples at all in saying I hope they cut him 5 or 6 new ones while he is in jail and the judge twice that for being a mother raping
father sodomizing POS not fit to be in a courtroom.
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Old 8th June 2016, 12:23 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Do you think he's a danger to society? If not, why 5 to 15? He made a very stupid decision and abused another person. I would hope that he won't repeat that mistake, but if he goes to prison after 15 he mightactually be worse than when he got in.
No problem by me. With luck someone will drop him in front of his dad - and get off with six months. After the new ones have been cut and used, of course.
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Old 8th June 2016, 12:40 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
I have no scruples at all in saying I hope they cut him 5 or 6 new ones while he is in jail and the judge twice that for being a mother raping
father sodomizing POS not fit to be in a courtroom.

I cannot actually manage to articulate just how horrific I find the "prison rape=justice" meme.
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Old 8th June 2016, 01:15 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It isn't all men, just clearly a majority of frat parties are rape focused
Oh, so all men are rapists and it's no use having laws against it, then? I mean we're all so rapey, right?
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Old 8th June 2016, 01:20 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Would you agree, that if he doesn't realize it's a bad thing, then he would be more likely to do it again?
Yes, that seems to follow, but I'm not a psychologist.

Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Based on his idiot father's comments, I'd go so far as to say he was TAUGHT it wasn't a bad thing.
I think on page one it was highlighted that the father's comment may not have meant that.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Do you think that someone who has committed a rape, is not remorseful, and believes he hasn't done anything wrong, is a danger to society?
Yes.

Quote:
Because sometimes punishment is about... punishment!!
So it's about lashing out at someone? It sounds like physical punishment on children, when the parents are just angry.

Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
I have no scruples at all in saying I hope they cut him 5 or 6 new ones while he is in jail and the judge twice that for being a mother raping
father sodomizing POS not fit to be in a courtroom.
See what I mean? It's about some emotional satisfaction, not a utilitarian outcome.
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Old 8th June 2016, 01:24 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Oh, so all men are rapists and it's no use having laws against it, then? I mean we're all so rapey, right?
You replied to a post that began "It isn't all men..." by saying "Oh, so all men...?" Ballsy.
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Old 8th June 2016, 02:59 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You seem far more focused on my one-line post about not getting drunk than anything the rapist or the judge did. What shall I infer from that?
Yes I know women should never drink I get that, you need to blame her so that you can ignore the actions of the others.
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Old 8th June 2016, 03:01 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I don't think that it does. Did Ziggurat recommend a lighter sentence because she was irresponsible?
It certainly achieved its goal of shifting the discussion away from them into how it was her fault.
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Old 8th June 2016, 03:09 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Wow, that's a hell of an allegation there. Do you have any evidence to support it? Can you cite any studies demonstrating your assertion?
I am not the one saying that going to these parties is totally irresponsible for women and comparing them to leaving your car unlocked and the keys in the ignition in a dangerous neighboorhood. So clearly they are rape centers in many peoples minds.


Quote:
You consider the above a logical and fact-based reply in support of the idea of a 'rape culture' in the United States? Wow.

Also, "proven legal tactics"? Care to cite examples from cases within, say, the last ten years, that unequivocally demonstrate these 'proven legal tactics' you allege? It feels like you're trapped in the 1980s (or earlier).
Or 2014

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim...icle-1.1778291

Or how about a one month jail sentence for raping a 14 year old who then kills herself?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...cing/16276429/

But she was a mature 14 so it was all really not a big deal of course


Quote:
So the judge in this case handed out what you consider to be a far too lenient sentence. As I stated previously, if one looks one will find plenty of cases where convicted persons get what might seem to be a lenient sentence. If you want an infamous example from Canada, take a look at the deal Karla Homolka got in exchange for helping the Crown in the prosecution of Paul Bernardo; that deal in spite of Hololka's direct involvement in the crimes (which included drugging her own sister so Bernardo could sexually assault her).
Exactly we have to stop thinking of rape as a serious crime deserving of serious punishment.
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Old 8th June 2016, 03:36 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
I have no scruples at all in saying I hope they cut him 5 or 6 new ones while he is in jail and the judge twice that for being a mother raping
father sodomizing POS not fit to be in a courtroom.
I have to laugh because you do this on just about every thread where a criminal is involved. You come on and let us know your violent revenge fantasies. I get it. You don't like bad guys.
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Old 8th June 2016, 03:40 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes I know women should never drink I get that, you need to blame her so that you can ignore the actions of the others.
Stay away from open flames
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Old 8th June 2016, 03:41 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post




Exactly we have to stop thinking of rape as a serious crime deserving of serious punishment.
We?

Just you, own it.
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Old 8th June 2016, 04:13 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
The rape victim wrote what is, in my opinion, a far more powerful letter that was read at Turner's sentencing hearing, and I have to wonder just how steeped in white privilege that judge was to not let this sway his decision to only sentence Turner to six months in prison.
I think the letter did sway his decision.
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Old 8th June 2016, 04:17 AM   #186
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What should the punishment be? (fuelair, I don't want to hear your ridiculous answer).
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Old 8th June 2016, 05:09 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
What should the punishment be? (fuelair, I don't want to hear your ridiculous answer).
Rape is not about sex its about violence and control. Just because she was drunk and he's a good swimmer, it should not make any difference, its still rape. Its every bit as bad as if he had abducted her off the street and raped her.

As I said earlier, 5 to 15 years. If he was some black or Hispanic kid from a bad 'hood (or even a less privileged white kid from poorer 'burb) that's probably what he would have got.
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Old 8th June 2016, 05:26 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Rape is not about sex its about violence and control.

I still don't buy this. I've seen it asserted many times but never demonstrated. The brush is just too big.
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Old 8th June 2016, 05:39 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Oh, so all men are rapists and it's no use having laws against it, then? I mean we're all so rapey, right?
We shouldn't even be discussing it. We're supposed to shut up and listen.
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Old 8th June 2016, 05:41 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Rape is not about sex its about violence and control.
In situations like this I think that's a pretty silly statement. He was drunk and horny; he had been hitting on girls earlier in the night. He wanted to get laid, and apparently he had little enough respect for this woman to violate her in pursuit of that.

Control? Violence? No, this is about sex, plain and simple.
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Old 8th June 2016, 06:25 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
I could see him living with crippling depression for the rest of his life. Perhaps suicide... if that prospect makes you feel better.
Which is why punishments for manslaughter are entirely pointless then?
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Old 8th June 2016, 06:26 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Nothing wrong with parents advocating for their children

Everything wrong with making statements that are insulting to the victims of the crimes they commit.
But clearly her bad decisions almost ruined his sons life, why not hold her accountable?
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Old 8th June 2016, 06:28 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
I don't think it's true at all. They have people that study this stuff and a very good at assigning probability to re-offend. There are many different types of people that commit this type of crimes which each have a different future risk potential. Ted Bundy... would been a high risk to re-offend. Kobe Bryant, probably not.



No. It can take a second to violate someone. Are you a real doctor?
Do you have a link for this? I was under the impression that we were particularly bad at predicting this accurately.
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Old 8th June 2016, 06:32 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
In situations like this I think that's a pretty silly statement. He was drunk and horny; he had been hitting on girls earlier in the night. He wanted to get laid, and apparently he had little enough respect for this woman to violate her in pursuit of that.

Control? Violence? No, this is about sex, plain and simple.
I disagree 100%. This case is TOTALLY about control.

You said it yourself. He was looking for sex, and couldn't get it. However, this unconscious gave him the opportunity, because he was in control. He could control her, and do what he wanted with her, without having to worry about silly things like whether she agreed to it.

In contrast to your statement, this case of rape is COMPLETELY about control. Yes, he is using that control to get sex. That's why it is rape, and not assault, or theft. But make no mistake, it was about him being able to do what he wanted.
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Old 8th June 2016, 06:38 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I disagree 100%. This case is TOTALLY about control.

You said it yourself. He was looking for sex, and couldn't get it. However, this unconscious gave him the opportunity, because he was in control. He could control her, and do what he wanted with her, without having to worry about silly things like whether she agreed to it.

In contrast to your statement, this case of rape is COMPLETELY about control. Yes, he is using that control to get sex. That's why it is rape, and not assault, or theft. But make no mistake, it was about him being able to do what he wanted.

I don't think that's necessarily accurate and requires mind reading skills to confirm or deny.
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Old 8th June 2016, 06:46 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I disagree 100%. This case is TOTALLY about control.

You said it yourself. He was looking for sex, and couldn't get it. However, this unconscious gave him the opportunity, because he was in control. He could control her, and do what he wanted with her, without having to worry about silly things like whether she agreed to it.

In contrast to your statement, this case of rape is COMPLETELY about control. Yes, he is using that control to get sex. That's why it is rape, and not assault, or theft. But make no mistake, it was about him being able to do what he wanted.
Control was a means to the end. The goal was sex.

When people say "rape is about control and violence, not sex," they are talking about the motives of the rapist. And in this case that assumption is completely wrong.

Yes, he found a woman he could control. Not because he needed to control her, but because he wanted sex.

Analogy: if he were a heroine addict and he had grabbed her purse to pay for a hit, we could also say by your logic that it was "all about control." But we would recognize that, no, his goal was money - it was money and not control that motivated his behavior. Same thing here, with desire for sex (not desire for control) as the motivator.
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Old 8th June 2016, 06:47 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Yes, going to a frat party by yourself is dangerous.
She didn't go to the party alone; she went with her sister. And though getting so drunk was not her best decision (assuming she realised how strong the alcohol was), the only consequence anybody should expect from drinking is a hangover.

The analogy of stealing a car is insulting; people are not inanimate objects or possessions with no issues of consent about who enters them. If a woman or a man is incapable of consent, that means there is no consent.

I don't hope that Brock Turner will be raped in prison, that's as ridiculous as teaching a child not to bite by biting them. I do hope he will have to do some learning around consent and taking full responsibility for his actions, though.
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Old 8th June 2016, 06:47 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I don't think that's necessarily accurate and requires mind reading skills to confirm or deny.
No need to read minds. Yes he wanted sex, but he got it through violence and cobtrol. If it weren't for violence and control he wouldn't have had sex.
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Old 8th June 2016, 06:49 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes I know women should never drink I get that, you need to blame her so that you can ignore the actions of the others.
Still offering nothing but straw.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It certainly achieved its goal of shifting the discussion away from them into how it was her fault.
The irony here is that we're only continuing to discuss this because of your asinine response. Had you ignored my post, that would have been the end of it.
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Old 8th June 2016, 06:54 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
No need to read minds. Yes he wanted sex, but he got it through violence and cobtrol. If it weren't for violence and control he wouldn't have had sex.
Yes, but, as someone above stated, it was about sexual gratification. The control was a means to an end. I accept that some rape may be primarily about control and the forced sex to be a means to that end. In this instance that is not, as far as I can see, the case.
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